Weird question about Reformed churches...

[PeterPan]

I'm not sure I'm even asking this right, but are Reformed churches evangelistic? I mean, do they have altar calls, calls to repentance, baptism, conversion, etc.?? I was really surprised by some comments Douglas Wilson (who I realize does not represent all the Reformed movement) at the Cincy convention, and it left me confused as to what their actual theology is. How do they approach the salvation of their children, and how do they approach conversion of the lost? How does this play out in the church services?

 

Thanks!

[Donna A.]

All I'm going to say is that Doug Wilson does NOT represent what we believe. :glare:

 

Our church does not give altar calls, but we most certainly ARE evangelistic. We evangelize through prison ministry, military chaplaincy, supporting overseas missionaries, and other means. There may be some "hyper-Calvinists" out there who don't evangelize, but that's not us. :)

[AndyJoy]

All I'm going to say is that Doug Wilson does NOT represent what we believe. :glare:

 

Our church does not give altar calls, but we most certainly ARE evangelistic. We evangelize through prison ministry, military chaplaincy, supporting overseas missionaries, and other means. There may be some "hyper-Calvinists" out there who don't evangelize, but that's not us. :)

 

:iagree: My Reformed Baptist church is the same. I actually lived in Moscow, Idaho for 3 years so I got an up-close introduction to Doug Wilson. His church is definitely its own "flavor", kind of cult-like in some ways, and not representative of other Reformed churches I've attended.

[HerdingCats]

I wonder also about this. It seems some in homeschooling who are more on the extreme side of staying out of the "world" might be operating from this kind of view. Is it really that common? I don't want to offend anyone here who may believe this way.

[Karenciavo]

Yes, we evangelize. Hopefully the sermon is about Christ's redeeming work and our need for a Savior so repentance is preached. No altar calls (I can't imagine something so emotional at any of the reformed churches I've attended), but people are made aware that if they desire to speak with someone about Christ the Pastor and Elders are available after the service. Some reformed churches practice paedobaptism (infant) and credobaptism (believer's), some are strictly credobaptism.

 

I don't know what Doug Wilson said, but I'm not surprised that he said something confusing, he's often left me :confused:

[ScoutTN]

Doug Wilson does NOT represent what we believe. :glare:

There may be some "hyper-Calvinists" out there who don't evangelize, but that's not us. :)

:iagree:

 

Our church (PCA) does not have altar calls per se, but every worship service is full of the call from God to repent and believe. Particularly clear in communion, which we have every week. We also have evangelism training and lots of missions and evangelistic ministries.

 

We treat our children as covenant children, members of the community with whom God has made a covenant. We teach and train them and have opportunities for them to make a public profession of faith. (Most are baptized as infants, but this is not true of all Reformed churches.) We do realize though that some children may not ever have a "moment" of conversion - some never know a day that they didn't know Jesus. (See Stephen Smallman's Spiritual Birthline for more about this.)

 

As for conversion theology - the basics: all men have a sinful nature, are sinners and are spiritually dead apart from grace, God changes the heart in regeneration so that one believes and repents and so begins the life of sanctification. God uses people and the outward call of the gospel to bring people to himself so evangelism is absolutely necessary. "Go and make disciples...."

 

HTH :D

[Quad Shot Academy]

It depends on the church and denomination and how far they take Calvinism. We went to a reformed church that believed you were either chosen or not and nothing could be done about it. (5 pointed Calvinism, TULIP) There were certainly not alter calls or good works done for the sake of reaching those in need (other than those that were already "saved"). There were some other pretty extreme beliefs too like discouraging members from having any involvement in para-church organizations.

[runmiarun]

Reformed churches are evangelistic but this does not necessarily play out in the worship service (i.e. altar call). In our church and the few other reformed churches we've visited, the worship service is for worship and teaching. I'm a reformed presbyterian and our services are very low-key with singing of traditional hymns, lots of prayer time, and significant amounts of scripture reading. Our services average 1 3/4 hours to 2 hours in length. We have other churches of our faith who have contemporary services with full bands, newer worship music, and more multi-media outlets for scripture sharing. Evangelism is a natural and daily extension of this teaching and in-depth bible study and sharing this with our neighbors (work, neighborhood, etc).

 

Also, many of the protestant faiths have reformed groups in them, i.e. reformed baptists, reformed lutherans, reformed presbyterians. It depends on which protestant faith and each church as to how they conduct their services and practice evangelism to their families and neighbors.

 

As for salvation of children, we share the scripture with our children daily and talk about Christ and salvation. I view that as my responsibility as a parent in planting the seeds of the faith. Sunday school and catechism classes are vital as well to growing the understanding and knowledge of Christ for our kids.

 

It seems some in homeschooling who are more on the extreme side of staying out of the "world" might be operating from this kind of view. Is it really that common?

I think reformed is getting to be more common as many people are searching for a different kind of faith than they have or grew up amongst. As for the homeschooling to stay out of the world, that can be an extension of really any faith. I do see it more in the more extreme, traditional sects of a variety of faiths so I see your point there. Of the families in our church, half homeschool and half go to public/private school. For us, it was a personal decision on the best way to educate our children (as it probably was for all homeschool families).

 

By the way, I concur with Donna regarding their evangelism at her church. Our church does much the same, getting out into the community and building relationships with people.

 

~Mia

[iona]

They definately evangelize. They believe that people believe the gospel through hearing the word of God preached to them. A christian's faith is strengthened as well by hearing.

The church service is aimed at Christians worshipping God together, not primarily for the nonchristian though.

The service doesn't build towards the altarcall/time of decision. Usually after the word is preached, I prefer to have the Lord's supper. You hear the gospel preached to you and then you "see" it as well. So the response is to repent and believe, recieving what Christ has done for you...not necessarily making a commitment to Him.

You will come across different shades of reformed, and local congregations will always look a little different.

This has been my experience...having grown up in interdenominational and Baptist churches and then becoming presbyterian in adulthood.

[Remudamom]

Hey, I like Wilson, mostly anyhow. Our son went to NSA.

I'm not even getting into the rest of it. Too hot.

[Daisy]

Reformed churches are evangelistic but this does not necessarily play out in the worship service (i.e. altar call). In our church and the few other reformed churches we've visited, the worship service is for worship and teaching. I'm a reformed presbyterian and our services are very low-key with singing of traditional hymns, lots of prayer time, and significant amounts of scripture reading. Our services average 1 3/4 hours to 2 hours in length. We have other churches of our faith who have contemporary services with full bands, newer worship music, and more multi-media outlets for scripture sharing. Evangelism is a natural and daily extension of this teaching and in-depth bible study and sharing this with our neighbors (work, neighborhood, etc).

 

Also, many of the protestant faiths have reformed groups in them, i.e. reformed baptists, reformed lutherans, reformed presbyterians. It depends on which protestant faith and each church as to how they conduct their services and practice evangelism to their families and neighbors.

 

As for salvation of children, we share the scripture with our children daily and talk about Christ and salvation. I view that as my responsibility as a parent in planting the seeds of the faith. Sunday school and catechism classes are vital as well to growing the understanding and knowledge of Christ for our kids.

 

It seems some in homeschooling who are more on the extreme side of staying out of the "world" might be operating from this kind of view. Is it really that common?

I think reformed is getting to be more common as many people are searching for a different kind of faith than they have or grew up amongst. As for the homeschooling to stay out of the world, that can be an extension of really any faith. I do see it more in the more extreme, traditional sects of a variety of faiths so I see your point there. Of the families in our church, half homeschool and half go to public/private school. For us, it was a personal decision on the best way to educate our children (as it probably was for all homeschool families).

 

By the way, I concur with Donna regarding their evangelism at her church. Our church does much the same, getting out into the community and building relationships with people.

 

~Mia

 

:iagree:

 

Actually I'd say our church is evangelistic because the Word of God is preached every single Sunday morning. Not pop psychology. Not the latest in having your best life now. Not a easy believism gospel. Just the Truth of the Gospel.

 

But no, it doesn't very often include long altar calls and emotional appeals to repentance. The minister encourages anyone who wants, to come speak to him or the elders more about the gospel. Pretty much we expect God to do the calling instead of a program. IMO, when God calls someone to repentance you don't have to drag them down the aisle with Just As I am.

 

We have a HUGE focus on evangelizing the community in our every day work-a-day lives. We don't save it all for 2 hours on Sunday morning.

[Rebecca VA]

I've told this story before, but at our old church (reformed Baptist) we had a guest speaker state that the Great Commission doesn't apply to us because Jesus was only talking to His apostles and not to all believers. That was the beginning of the end of our membership there. It's true this man was a "guest" speaker, but the church in general was wishy-washy about evangelism. Basically they believed that you're either chosen or you aren't, and nothing anyone can do is going to change that.

 

We go to a different reformed Baptist church now. There's a lot of emphasis on evangelism. We have a thriving Spanish ministry and a food pantry, as well as Vacation Bible School. At prayer meeting we share prayers for loved ones and friends.

 

The only gray area -- and I find this at almost all reformed churches -- is the salvation of children. At our church children are almost discouraged from making professions of faith. They aren't allowed to join the church and be baptized until they're well up into their teens. That doesn't sit well with me, since I grew up in a Southern Baptist church and lots of children made professions of faith -- and all these many years later, almost all the ones I know are still faithful Christians.

[i.love.lucy]

:iagree:

 

Actually I'd say our church is evangelistic because the Word of God is preached every single Sunday morning. Not pop psychology. Not the latest in having your best life now. Not a easy believism gospel. Just the Truth of the Gospel.

 

But no, it doesn't very often include long altar calls and emotional appeals to repentance. The minister encourages anyone who wants, to come speak to him or the elders more about the gospel. Pretty much we expect God to do the calling instead of a program. IMO, when God calls someone to repentance you don't have to drag them down the aisle with Just As I am.

 

We have a HUGE focus on evangelizing the community in our every day work-a-day lives. We don't save it all for 2 hours on Sunday morning.

:iagree:This is our church too.

[i.love.lucy]

I've told this story before, but at our old church (reformed Baptist) we had a guest speaker state that the Great Commission doesn't apply to us because Jesus was only talking to His apostles and not to all believers. That was the beginning of the end of our membership there. It's true this man was a "guest" speaker, but the church in general was wishy-washy about evangelism. Basically they believed that you're either chosen or you aren't, and nothing anyone can do is going to change that.

 

We go to a different reformed Baptist church now. There's a lot of emphasis on evangelism. We have a thriving Spanish ministry and a food pantry, as well as Vacation Bible School. At prayer meeting we share prayers for loved ones and friends.

 

The only gray area -- and I find this at almost all reformed churches -- is the salvation of children. At our church children are almost discouraged from making professions of faith. They aren't allowed to join the church and be baptized until they're well up into their teens. That doesn't sit well with me, since I grew up in a Southern Baptist church and lots of children made professions of faith -- and all these many years later, almost all the ones I know are still faithful Christians.

That is fortunate for those few, but what has played out in the recent studies done by the SBC is that most are NOT still faithful attenders and it was most likely a false conversion to begin with.

 

Our church is very careful with children. We just got done with VBS and had a very, very strong gospel presentation, but no asking of the group of kids to "ask Jesus in to their hearts". We want to plant the seed and let the Holy Spirit do his work. And be sure to try to continue to be in those children's lives to help answer any questions they might have. But I think we are seeing it as a longer term commitment to learning and growing before wanting children to fully accept and then be baptized. I am actually going to a parenting meeting on Saturday night about this very thing because I have not yet seen a child baptized in our church and we have been attending for almost a year. I am wondering how this is handled and why. I am in no rush for my dd to get baptized, as it's a profession of faith and not necessary for her salvation, but she will want to do it eventually.

[PeterPan]

Well steering clear of the obvious hot topics, lol, can I ask how they handle the conversion of children who have been paedo-baptized? Is it just sort of assumed that they are and they assimilate? Do the churches have issues with assimilated but unconverted attendees due to the worship-oriented services? And out of curiousity, do they ask for conversion stories (testimonials) from people coming in?

 

This has nothing to do with me btw. I've just been trying to figure it out, both to understand people I meet and to see the VP Omnibus materials in context. The more I read of Omnibus, the more I'm seeing this slant that I can't quite put my finger on. They say the same things, just not at all the way I would have said it. It's a different mindset or perspective or something, don't know.

 

I'm looking up that Spiritual Birthline book on amazon. Any sense of where the author is coming from?

[JudoMom]

It depends on the church and denomination and how far they take Calvinism. We went to a reformed church that believed you were either chosen or not and nothing could be done about it. (5 pointed Calvinism, TULIP) There were certainly not alter calls or good works done for the sake of reaching those in need (other than those that were already "saved"). There were some other pretty extreme beliefs too like discouraging members from having any involvement in para-church organizations.

 

I just wanted to say that there are plenty of 5-pointers (who believe in predestination and election) who actively evangelize :001_smile:.

[Julie in CA]

I just wanted to say that there are plenty of 5-pointers (who believe in predestination and election) who actively evangelize :001_smile:.

:iagree: We are the tool that God uses to gather in the harvest that He grows. :)

[silliness7]

 

The only gray area -- and I find this at almost all reformed churches -- is the salvation of children. At our church children are almost discouraged from making professions of faith. They aren't allowed to join the church and be baptized until they're well up into their teens. That doesn't sit well with me, since I grew up in a Southern Baptist church and lots of children made professions of faith -- and all these many years later, almost all the ones I know are still faithful Christians.

 

I was raised SBC. I walked the aisle 3 times. I was baptized soon after each time. I was 6, 7, and 13 years old. I probably would have done so a few more times except as I aged I began to see this as positively ridiculous. Obviously I struggled with assurance of salvation. I became a 5-point Calvinist through my own personal struggling and studying before I knew the official term. :001_smile:

 

Personally I feel altar calls are emotionally manipulative and pressuring young children in committing to a faith in which they may not fully understand doesn't sit well with me.

 

Before we converted to the Reformed faith, I was teaching Sunday School to a class of 2nd/3rd graders. Many of the children had made professions of faith. Yet when I would ask basic questions about their faith such as why God loved them or why they were forgiven they would not know the correct answer. That is a serious problem, imo.

 

We attend a wonderful reformed church who ministers to her covenant children in a way that makes sense to me. When we joined my oldest was 5th grade and then on down to a newborn. All of the children were baptized along with our newborn without making a profession of faith. We will mention their baptisms to them on occasion and particularly when we witness one and remind them of the promise God made to them at their baptism...that if they will call upon the name of the Lord they will be saved.

 

We believe that baptism is a sign of the New Covenant as circumcision was the sign of the Old Covenant. We teach our children the gospel daily and continually call them to repent and believe and I pray that they will respond to that call. We faithfully bring our children with us to hear the gospel proclaimed twice each Lord's Day and our pastor does a wonderful job of preaching the gospel and showing us the beauty of Christ our Savior. Our church does not teach, nor do we believe that baptism saves you or that covenant children are automatically saved.

 

The pastor is frequently teaching Pre-confession classes and any young adult who is desiring to make a profession of faith is to attend these classes. They are interviewed by the elders and then they publicly make profession of their faith during a worship service. At such time they are then admitted into full membership and can participate in communion. Other reformed churches do it differently. There is no one standard across the board which can make the OP's research on the topic a bit tricky. ;)

 

Our church is very evangelistic sponsoring missionaries around the world, being involved in prison ministries, after-school bible clubs, etc. We just finished up our VBS in which we invited neighborhood kids.

 

God having predestined those He will save does not in any way negate our responsibility to call all men to repentance. However, it does seem to leave off the need for the emotional manipulation since it is the Spirit who is doing the work of regeneration and not any man.

 

HTH

[Rebecca VA]

I do understand about not wanting to manipulate children's emotions, but I believe that many children are quite capable of making serious decisions. Children can easily understand the gospel and respond to it. What do you say to a child who wants to be saved? That they aren't old enough or smart enough or sincere enough to be one of Christ's followers?

 

This puts the child who really understands and desires to obey the gospel into a strange position. Are they a Christian or not? Why can't they make a public profession and be accepted by the church (maybe not with voting rights, but welcomed into the fellowship of believers)?

 

I just don't see this being compatible with Jesus' command to let the little children come unto Him and forbid them not.

 

My own stepsister accepted Christ when she was *three* and has worked tirelessly for Him for her entire life. She is the most devoted Christian I know. I can't imagine how things would have played out if someone had told her she couldn't get baptized until she was 18. The whole concept boggles my mind.

[Kate CA]

Well steering clear of the obvious hot topics, lol, can I ask how they handle the conversion of children who have been paedo-baptized? Is it just sort of assumed that they are and they assimilate? Do the churches have issues with assimilated but unconverted attendees due to the worship-oriented services? And out of curiousity, do they ask for conversion stories (testimonials) from people coming in?

 

 

 

I will say that every reformed church is likely to handle these things a little differently because as there are different kinds of evangelical churches, there are different reformed churches, but as Presbyterian paedobaptists, this is how our church does it. Once a child professes faith in Christ and demonstrates evidences of his faith (usually determined by the parent as they are the closest ones to see that evidence, but not always as sometimes the child expresses a desire to participate in the Lord's Supper on his own) he attends a communicants class.

 

This class (taught by the pastor) explains what the Lord's Supper is, what faith in Christ really is, grace of God, all aspects of true saving faith, etc. They then meet with the elders and if they are found to have a real faith and can explain what they believe then they are brought before the church. At that time they then profess their faith and desire to be communicant participants and are then made communicant members. Children in our church are already members, but not all participate in the Lord's Supper until they have a clear faith.

 

For those members that are credobaptists (and we have them as our church does not discriminate regarding baptism and membership) they are baptized as they profess their faith in the same manner after the communicants class, etc., as explained above. This doesn't happen very often because most of our members are paedobaptists, but over the course of the nine years we have been there, it has happened.

 

For the second question about new people coming to the church, they must have a credible profession of faith in order to become participating members. Many also have "transfers of membership" from one church to another. We did not have this when we first arrived so when we decided to become members we met with the pastor and other elders and shared the testimony of Christ's saving work in our lives.

 

I hope this answers your questions. :001_smile:

[Alice]

I will say that every reformed church is likely to handle these things a little differently because as there are different kinds of evangelical churches, there are different reformed churches, but as Presbyterian paedobaptists, this is how our church does it. Once a child professes faith in Christ and demonstrates evidences of his faith (usually determined by the parent as they are the closest ones to see that evidence, but not always as sometimes the child expresses a desire to participate in the Lord's Supper on his own) he attends a communicants class.

 

This class (taught by the pastor) explains what the Lord's Supper is, what faith in Christ really is, grace of God, all aspects of true saving faith, etc. They then meet with the elders and if they are found to have a real faith and can explain what they believe then they are brought before the church. At that time they then profess their faith and desire to be communicant participants and are then made communicant members. Children in our church are already members, but not all participate in the Lord's Supper until they have a clear faith.

 

For those members that are credobaptists (and we have them as our church does not discriminate regarding baptism and membership) they are baptized as they profess their faith in the same manner after the communicants class, etc., as explained above. This doesn't happen very often because most of our members are paedobaptists, but over the course of the nine years we have been there, it has happened.

 

For the second question about new people coming to the church, they must have a credible profession of faith in order to become participating members. Many also have "transfers of membership" from one church to another. We did not have this when we first arrived so when we decided to become members we met with the pastor and other elders and shared the testimony of Christ's saving work in our lives.

 

I hope this answers your questions. :001_smile:

 

This is almost exactly what our church does. My son is going through the communicants class now.

 

I think one thing we also realize as far as a "conversion" story or "testimony" is that ultimately for a covenant child brought up in the faith they may not have a story where they can point to a moment of conversion. I think those stories are often very inspiring and dramatic, but for many that grow up in a Christian home they may not be able to remember the exact moment when they accepted Christ or became saved. I have a good friend who has a very dramatic story (became a Christian while in prison and then eventually went on to become a pastor). Once we remarked to him how his story was a great example of God's grace and he replied that it was, but that an equally great story of grace is a child who grows up in Christian home always being aware of God's love and who never experiences the kind of rebellion he did. His point being that everyone's story is different and sometimes the church seems to emphasize the dramatic conversion stories but we won't all have that.

[Kate CA]

The only gray area -- and I find this at almost all reformed churches -- is the salvation of children. At our church children are almost discouraged from making professions of faith. They aren't allowed to join the church and be baptized until they're well up into their teens. That doesn't sit well with me, since I grew up in a Southern Baptist church and lots of children made professions of faith -- and all these many years later, almost all the ones I know are still faithful Christians.

 

I think that choice is likely made because while I fully believe that children can and sometimes are saved early, it isn't just the profession that makes someone a believer. It is the work of the Holy Spirit transforming their souls and lives. I think it is important to see the evidences of that faith lived out. I imagine that the leadership of your church sees it this way too.

 

While I want to believe that my 7 and 9 yos are saved because they say they love Jesus, and believe in His saving work for their lives, I am not sure they are. The evidence should be more than "because I prayed a prayer" or "walked down an isle". Do you know what I mean? (I hope you hear my heart here - I am not at all trying to be flippant or critical of those you knew as children who professed faith - I know it happens. :001_smile: )

 

When I ask follow-up questions many times they cannot answer them. This does not mean that one or both are not saved, but I feel that we can really put our children on the short road to hell when we reassure them they are saved when they might not be because they prayed the prayer or walked the isle. When we give them the "pass" that they are saved they might think they have nothing to worry about. I think we should all be aware that we are sinners in need of an amazing Savior - that we ought to live for Him all the time, that our lives should be changed because of it. Saving faith is saving faith and once truly saved, I do believe we are truly saved forever. However, I want to be as sure as I can be (as a human mama) before I encourage my children to take the Lord's Supper because taking it incorrectly is a dangerous thing.

 

I hope I made sense here. This is such an important issue! :001_smile:

[Jugglin'5]

 

I think one thing we also realize as far as a "conversion" story or "testimony" is that ultimately for a covenant child brought up in the faith they may not have a story where they can point to a moment of conversion. I think those stories are often very inspiring and dramatic, but for many that grow up in a Christian home they may not be able to remember the exact moment when they accepted Christ or became saved. I have a good friend who has a very dramatic story (became a Christian while in prison and then eventually went on to become a pastor). Once we remarked to him how his story was a great example of God's grace and he replied that it was, but that an equally great story of grace is a child who grows up in Christian home always being aware of God's love and who never experiences the kind of rebellion he did. His point being that everyone's story is different and sometimes the church seems to emphasize the dramatic conversion stories but we won't all have that.

 

:iagree:

[Julie in CA]

I do understand about not wanting to manipulate children's emotions, but I believe that many children are quite capable of making serious decisions. Children can easily understand the gospel and respond to it. What do you say to a child who wants to be saved? That they aren't old enough or smart enough or sincere enough to be one of Christ's followers?

 

This puts the child who really understands and desires to obey the gospel into a strange position. Are they a Christian or not? Why can't they make a public profession and be accepted by the church (maybe not with voting rights, but welcomed into the fellowship of believers)?

 

I just don't see this being compatible with Jesus' command to let the little children come unto Him and forbid them not.

 

My own stepsister accepted Christ when she was *three* and has worked tirelessly for Him for her entire life. She is the most devoted Christian I know. I can't imagine how things would have played out if someone had told her she couldn't get baptized until she was 18. The whole concept boggles my mind.

Children are capable of making serious decisions via emotion, but they are not often well-informed enough to make a *knowledgeable* decision. I think the process most Reformed denominations follow is designed to prevent the over and over "regeneration" experience that is common in other churches. Of course children can be Christians, but they don't usually have a broad enough knowledge to understand the huge commitment they are making--not a decision made today and then re-done next year, but a lifetime decision to live life as a new man.

 

As for forbidding children to come to Jesus, there is no way on earth that Reformed churches are forbidding children to come to Him. They may indeed be forbidding children from taking communion without a fuller knowledge of what they're agreeing to believe (and thereby possibly eating and drinking judgment upon themselves), but there's no stopping someone from believing in Him and living their life from that point forward according to their own personal commitment, regardless of age.

 

ETA: I'm trying to figure out a better way to explain...maybe this will help?

If your 14 year old came and told you that they loved the boy/girl down the street, would you allow them to marry? You might, but not right then, because you'd want them to be a bit older and have a more mature knowledge of what they were agreeing to. Do they really love that boy/girl? Possibly, but you'd want them to wait on making the big commitment until they were better equipped to make life decisions. It's entirely possible that they are indeed in love, and if they are, the love will continue on until they're a bit more mature. Does that help at all? :-)

Edited June 26, 2010 by Julie in CA

[ScoutTN]

I just wanted to say that there are plenty of 5-pointers (who believe in predestination and election) who actively evangelize :001_smile:.

 

Amen!

 

On the salvation of children and professions of faith. The pps who explained the cautious nature of many churches' way of doing things did a great job.

 

Our church tries to keep the balance and not either withhold the Lord's Supper from believing children nor encourage a false assurance of faith. Very difficult.

So we have no ages specified and the classes for children are not prerequisites for communing membership. Children must be able to meet with a pastor or an elder and make a credible, age-appropriate profession of faith. That is all we require of adults too. If someone has not already been baptized, then he is at the time he makes his profession of faith/ takes the vows of membership.

 

I personally lean to the inclusive side. I'd rather err on the side of being gracious than of making a child doubt his salvation or think authentic faith requires a certain age or cognitive ability. I think if we are teaching and preaching faithfully, we should expect children to believe at a young age.

[silliness7]

I do understand about not wanting to manipulate children's emotions, but I believe that many children are quite capable of making serious decisions. Children can easily understand the gospel and respond to it. What do you say to a child who wants to be saved? That they aren't old enough or smart enough or sincere enough to be one of Christ's followers?

 

Absolutely not. But keep in mind that it is not a child's decision to be saved that saves him. It is the Holy Spirit that saves. How do you know the Holy Spirit has saved a child? Because the child demonstrates a genuine repentance for sin and believes in Jesus alone (not his being good) to save him. It is NOT the public profession of faith that saves a child. Therefore, saving the public profession for a more mature age does not hinder the child in any way. (although reformed believers, like Doug Wilson, would argue differently as it concerns communion)

 

This puts the child who really understands and desires to obey the gospel into a strange position. Are they a Christian or not? Why can't they make a public profession and be accepted by the church (maybe not with voting rights, but welcomed into the fellowship of believers)?

 

The church accepts the child into it's fellowship by baptizing the child. They are totally welcomed and loved and accepted. It truly is a different culture and hard to explain, maybe, if you are operating under a different paradigm.

 

I just don't see this being compatible with Jesus' command to let the little children come unto Him and forbid them not.

 

This is exactly one of the Scriptures quoted at infant baptisms. Absolutely let the little children come to Christ. Again, it is NOT their profession that saves them. It isn't their baptism either. It is the Holy Spirit by means of the gospel message as evidenced by their repentance and belief in Christ.

 

My own stepsister accepted Christ when she was *three* and has worked tirelessly for Him for her entire life. She is the most devoted Christian I know. I can't imagine how things would have played out if someone had told her she couldn't get baptized until she was 18. The whole concept boggles my mind.

 

And Praise God for his faithfulness to such young children.

Of course, at our church she would have been baptized as an infant.:001_smile:

 

 

HTH

[OnTheBrink]

 

God having predestined those He will save does not in any way negate our responsibility to call all men to repentance. However, it does seem to leave off the need for the emotional manipulation since it is the Spirit who is doing the work of regeneration and not any man.

 

HTH

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Alphabetika]

I just wanted to say that there are plenty of 5-pointers (who believe in predestination and election) who actively evangelize :001_smile:.

 

:iagree: