momofkhm Posted May 3, 2010 Share Posted May 3, 2010 My daughters feel like the homeschoolers we know here are not "all that smart", that homeschooling may not be good for the whole way through. They, of course, are exceptions to this since they went to a brick and mortar school for a few years. All the homeschoolers I know to point to, that I know and smart kids, also went to school for a few years. Of course their brother has been homeschooled from the beginning but he's only a rising 5th grader. So if you have homeschooled your student from the beginning and (1) he/she has good handwriting (yes that is one of their criteria!) and (2) he/she in some way has measurable smarts, can you spell that out so I can show them? Or ignore the handwriting bit. :) I think homeschooling is the way to go not just for what they get but for what they don't get. They are thinking that they should go to high school for one year. Help me set them straight before they have this conversation with dh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leanna Tomlinson Posted May 3, 2010 Share Posted May 3, 2010 (edited) I could give you several great examples, but it won't help, or at least it shouldn't. Their arguments and any "proof" I may offer are based on at least 2 logical fallacies. Purchase The Art of Argument and have them figure out what those fallacies may be. ;) ETA: Of course, after posting above, I have realized I am "baiting the question". So, I do know at least 4 National Merit Finalists who were homeschooled from the beginning. Sorry, I can't help with the handwriting, except to say... mine is horrible, my husband's is horrible, my dad's is horrible, so why should I blame the horrible handwriting of my kids on homeschooling over genetics? Edited May 3, 2010 by Leanna more info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted May 3, 2010 Share Posted May 3, 2010 Read the college board and look at the list of schools where many from this board have had kids accepted. It is impressive. I can totally empathize with your dds, however. Most homeschoolers I know IRL have much lower standards than we do. However, the bright spot is that we also know a family that is way above us as well. The opportunities we have learned about from that family have been a true blessing for us. :) After being in public and private schools and at home......I have no doubts about home being the best opportunity-wise for our children. I don't believe that is true for everyone, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinRTX Posted May 3, 2010 Share Posted May 3, 2010 I'm not sure what you would call measurable smarts. I will tell you that all of mine have always been homeschooled. The two that have graduated have done well. Child 1: Received full scholarship based on SAT scores. Graduated college with a 3.9 GPA from the Honors college at his school. His degree is in electrical engineering. Child 2: Currently finishing her junior year at college majoring in information technology. Current GPA 4.0. I think they have done quite well. Linda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom22ns Posted May 3, 2010 Share Posted May 3, 2010 (edited) How about using some statistics from HSLDA and others. Here is the latest research from HSLDA: http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/ray2009/2009_Ray_StudyFINAL.pdf Also Jay Wile of Apologia does a seminar on why homeschool high school. One of the things he shows is how much lower achievement test scores are for kids who return to public school in high school vs those who remain homeschooled. Here is a link to his notes from that seminar: http://www.apologiaonline.com/conf/teach_hs.pdf ETA I just read through those notes from Jay Wile and he doesn't have the slide in that he used at our convention showing the lower test scores for kids who return to ps. He does still have good info on why homeschool high school. Edited May 3, 2010 by Momto2Ns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teachin'Mine Posted May 3, 2010 Share Posted May 3, 2010 (edited) I think that no matter how many examples you present, it probably won't change their thinking. Maybe you can ask them why they think that way. There are lots of stats available - things like 10 percent of all Harvard acceptances are for home schoolers, and such. Are they just feeling like they're missing out on something by not going to high school? My guess is that it's more the social aspect that they want and the academics are just what they're using as the excuse. Do they have friends in public school? They may feel that they're missing out. if that's the case, try to keep them involved in home school groups and other activities. Edited May 3, 2010 by Teachin'Mine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted May 3, 2010 Share Posted May 3, 2010 I could give you several great examples, but it won't help, or at least it shouldn't. Their arguments and any "proof" I may offer are based on at least 2 logical fallacies. Purchase The Art of Argument and have them figure out what those fallacies may be. ;) ETA: Of course, after posting above, I have realized I am "baiting the question". So, I do know at least 4 National Merit Finalists who were homeschooled from the beginning. Sorry, I can't help with the handwriting, except to say... mine is horrible, my husband's is horrible, my dad's is horrible, so why should I blame the horrible handwriting of my kids on homeschooling over genetics? Gold stars to Leanna! Anecdotal information could "prove" either side of the coin. I would suggest that your daughters first define "smart". Do they mean test scores? Is that their end goal for their secondary education? For my son, homeschooling gave him the opportunity to do creative, independent work and engaged, hands on activities. When applying to colleges, he considered those that would give him the opportunity to continue along these lines. How does one quantitatively measure this advantage to a brick and mortar school? Test scores? Merit scholarships? Through the Well Trained Mind Arranged Marriage group that Kareni has mentioned? :lol::lol::lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Marple Posted May 3, 2010 Share Posted May 3, 2010 (1) he/she has good handwriting (yes that is one of their criteria!) and (2) he/she in some way has measurable smarts, can you spell that out so I can show them? Or ignore the handwriting bit. LOL! Well, we would fail at the handwriting part, although ds#1 is much improved since attending college. But my handwriting stinks and I was public schooled all the way through. Really, if they are truly interested in the academic successes of home educated high schoolers, have them check out the college board. Many of us have posted there about scholarships our dc have received, internships, other awards/recognition. Suffice it to say that there are failures in the public school system as well as in the homeschool world; there are successes in both as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momofkhm Posted May 3, 2010 Author Share Posted May 3, 2010 I could get info for either side. The bright spots we have around here did go to some school. The people we are friends with that have homeschooled since the beginning don't have the same standards we have. They are more relaxed. They aren't pushing the math and science like we are. (They'll have 4 years of both whether they need it or not to get into college. DH says!) Oldest is taking the same math and science as those a year ahead of her. I really don't get the handwriting thing either. I pointed out several adults with horrible handwriting - me included - all of us went to public school. I don't think it's the social aspects. We belong to a co-op and I consider it fluff and for socialization. The funny thing is they don't want to go to school. They like being able to get up whenever and no "homework". Oldest has lots of friends. Middle not so many, but she wouldn't have so many in school either, it's just the way she is. They all do sports as well. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liza Q Posted May 3, 2010 Share Posted May 3, 2010 Let's see - pretty good SATs (2080 total). Accepted to all four colleges she applied to, 3 academic scholarship offers (1 full), 2 Honors Programs. Just finishing her first year of college - 4.0 for her first semester, good chance she will do the same this semester. But her handwriting stinks!! That is probably because I homeschooled her starting in Pre-K and taught her to type as soon as possible! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brindee Posted May 3, 2010 Share Posted May 3, 2010 (edited) Yeah, you can find lots of data if you look for it to support homeschooling! There's Tim Tebow--he was homeschooled and he's quite well known, does great in football (just got drafted into the NFL, I think), and did very well scholastically. I agree with the poster who said you can find successes and failures in both homeschooling and ps. Edited May 3, 2010 by Brindee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Wisc Posted May 3, 2010 Share Posted May 3, 2010 DD was homeschooled K-12. She is a senior in Communications (Public Relations) and has a 4.0. I met her adviser a couple of weeks ago, and she nearly fell all over me telling me how wonderful a job I did in homeschooling. Once in a while there is a payback :). Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTMindy Posted May 3, 2010 Share Posted May 3, 2010 I would say that homeschoolers are exactly like public schoolers. Some are exceptionally smart, many are right around average, and a few are not cutting it at all. It sounds to me like this is more of an excuse from them to get to go to public school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tullia Posted May 3, 2010 Share Posted May 3, 2010 Hmmm....my son went to ps K-3 and his handwriting isn't so great, but improved after we did a course of penmanship at home. This is a great teaching opportunity; you could insist on logical reasoning as a condition to your continuing the discussion. I don't think it matters all that much where you actually "do" school; results vary and depend a lot on the effort expended. I don't find that aggregate data translates well to individual cases either. At the micro-level it all starts with what each person puts into the effort. Sooner or later, effort pays off and slacking has its natural consequence too. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CindyJ Posted May 3, 2010 Share Posted May 3, 2010 Tim Tebow is a good example for a lot of things, but not for the scholastic end of homeschooling. He did not score very high on his SAT. But he is obviously well-rounded. My kids, unfortunately, have the same attitude about other homeschoolers that your kids seem to have. They think they're nerdy, lacking in social skills, and behind academically. I suppose my kids are a little snobby, but I think their assessment is based on real kids that they know/have known, and there is a lot of truth to those observations. They, of course, think they are the exceptions. I do know that I was very shocked a few years ago when I was sharing my schedule with some other homeschooling moms. They were so relaxed about their kids' studies, that they thought I was extreme, and I was just making sure the work got done. But I think that we all come to homeschooling with a certain educational background, and I kind of think that if we ourselves have not received a good education, then we have no idea how to pass on a better one, because we don't know the difference. These other homeschool moms had not gone to college and did not know what a good education was. Plus, our family knows too many kids who have been homeschooled all their lives, and then fall apart when they encounter the real world. I personally think that they have not had enough exposure to positive role models; their experience has been so limited with regards to other adults or older kids who have excelled in various ways. Some homeschoolers think that their kids just need to hang around their parents all the time, but that is pretty short-sighted. I have noticed a difference between the homeschooled kids that we have in our youth group and the kids from the Christian school, especially. (My ds now attends the Christian school). Of course, there are exceptions, but the Christian school kids are respectful and socially mature; noticeably more-so than the homeschooled kids. I love homeschooling, but my kids have wanted to be "like the other kids" and go to school in high school. They tell me that they are better prepared to face the world than the over-sheltered homeschooled kids that they know. So I guess the question is how to accomplish some of those same things when kids are homeschooled all the way through, because I do know some wonderful homeschooled kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlsdMama Posted May 3, 2010 Share Posted May 3, 2010 (edited) Frankly, I'm just confused. Why would someone look to other families to determine whether or not their own family is sufficiently capable to homeschool? It would seem to me that unless another family's mother is homeschooling *your* children, the sufficiency of your success is dependent wholly on you and your children. A large part of the problem is, having gone to a brick and mortar school, there are expectations of "well-rounded" individuals. Unfortunately how many define "smart" is a jack of all trades, and a master of none. Hm. I'm sure this is not what you're talking about. However, it's important to realize what each family is preparing each child for in the future. And, much is dependent on the individual child as well. IMHO, the entire post smacks of snobbery... But that's just me. Most importantly, it does confuse me when the children determine how the family operates. If the parents feel homeschooling is superior, why do the children decide otherwise? And why do the girls' opinions outweigh their mother's? Giving a child a voice isn't the same as allowing them to drown out the other sounds in the room. Their .02 is exactly worth that... two pennies. It's kind to take it into consideration, but doesn't have enough weight to carry a decision. Edited May 3, 2010 by BlsdMama Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brindee Posted May 3, 2010 Share Posted May 3, 2010 Tim Tebow is a good example for a lot of things, but not for the scholastic end of homeschooling. He did not score very high on his SAT. But he is obviously well-rounded.Yes, but he did well enough in his schoolwork. My oldest doesn't take tests, such as the SAT, well. He got 4.0 in his 2 years going to a highschool his Jr. and Sr. years, but you wouldn't know it from his SAT scores (sad to say). He's more of a methodical thinker, and reads slowly, so does not do well on timed tests. I know it helps with scholarships, but, because of knowing my ds (and some others) as I do, I don't consider a lower score on the SAT as the end-all of whether they do well scholastically or not! That's just one test, which could include many variables of why they did or did not do well. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted May 3, 2010 Share Posted May 3, 2010 I do know that I was very shocked a few years ago when I was sharing my schedule with some other homeschooling moms. They were so relaxed about their kids' studies, that they thought I was extreme, and I was just making sure the work got done. But I think that we all come to homeschooling with a certain educational background, and I kind of think that if we ourselves have not received a good education, then we have no idea how to pass on a better one, because we don't know the difference. These other homeschool moms had not gone to college and did not know what a good education was. Ouch! Cindy, I am a fairly well educated person but my parents were not. No, I was not homeschooled, but I was presented with numerous educational opportunities as a young person. My parents' lack of education did not prevent them from taking me to the library weekly or from sending me to good private schools where I studied Latin which my Dad felt was very important even if he had not studied it. We could not afford a summer vacation with motels so we traveled around this beautiful country of ours pulling a camper and eating our meals at roadside tables. As a child I saw the Grand Canyon, Yellowstone, the monuments in DC, etc. Overall, my parents did a nice job with me, if I may say so myself. Plus, our family knows too many kids who have been homeschooled all their lives, and then fall apart when they encounter the real world. I personally think that they have not had enough exposure to positive role models; their experience has been so limited with regards to other adults or older kids who have excelled in various ways. Some homeschoolers think that their kids just need to hang around their parents all the time, but that is pretty short-sighted. I have noticed a difference between the homeschooled kids that we have in our youth group and the kids from the Christian school, especially. (My ds now attends the Christian school). Of course, there are exceptions, but the Christian school kids are respectful and socially mature; noticeably more-so than the homeschooled kids. I love homeschooling, but my kids have wanted to be "like the other kids" and go to school in high school. They tell me that they are better prepared to face the world than the over-sheltered homeschooled kids that they know. So I guess the question is how to accomplish some of those same things when kids are homeschooled all the way through, because I do know some wonderful homeschooled kids. Wow. Just wow. I am truly shocked by your statements. Your youth group provides you with a small sample from which you make broad generalizations. My son traveled independently to visit colleges throughout this year. He is involved with children, teens and adults who enjoy his company and respect him. Overly sheltered? Yikes. I'm rather glad that he is not "like the other kids". My son is focused, pleasant and interesting. Wowsers. Jane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brindee Posted May 3, 2010 Share Posted May 3, 2010 (edited) Ouch! Cindy, I am a fairly well educated person but my parents were not. No, I was not homeschooled, but I was presented with numerous educational opportunities as a young person. My parents' lack of education did not prevent them from taking me to the library weekly or from sending me to good private schools where I studied Latin which my Dad felt was very important even if he had not studied it. We could not afford a summer vacation with motels so we traveled around this beautiful country of ours pulling a camper and eating our meals at roadside tables. As a child I saw the Grand Canyon, Yellowstone, the monuments in DC, etc. Overall, my parents did a nice job with me, if I may say so myself. Wow. Just wow. I am truly shocked by your statements. Your youth group provides you with a small sample from which you make broad generalizations. My son traveled independently to visit colleges throughout this year. He is involved with children, teens and adults who enjoy his company and respect him. Overly sheltered? Yikes. I'm rather glad that he is not "like the other kids". My son is focused, pleasant and interesting. Wowsers. Jane Wow, I only answered the Tebow comment, hadn't read the rest yet. Yikes, Cindy, are you sure you're a homeschooler? Your comments smack of the things people who have NO real knowledge of homeschooling would say! :glare: I don't know ANY homeschoolers like you describe! I'm sure there may be a few, but it's certainly not the norm! Even those "without education" do a TERRIFIC job of homeschooling! If they are more relaxed homeschoolers than you are, does that make them wrong? NO! There are as many different ways to homeschool as there are people homeschooling! My children are not that way either, and in an area with hundreds of homeschoolers, though there are different approaches, NONE of them are what you describe! I agree with Jane.......Wow. Just wow! Edited May 3, 2010 by Brindee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin in DFW Posted May 3, 2010 Share Posted May 3, 2010 (edited) no message Edited May 6, 2010 by Robin in DFW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted May 3, 2010 Share Posted May 3, 2010 1. Yes, both have good handwriting. 2. Both began taking classes at the community college when they were 14 (older dd took Latin her second semester, which she aced). Both graduated (not in two years, but still graduated) with almost 4.0 GPAs. Older dd transferred to a state college where she graduated with a BA in English Lit, also with an almost 4.0 GPA. Younger dd decided not to go on for various reasons, but she earned multiple degrees from the c.c. (who knew you could do that???) in theater and film and dance. FTR, younger dd also scored post high school on her standardized tests when she was in 9th grade, and she was a year younger than most freshmen. Does any of this count? :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tullia Posted May 3, 2010 Share Posted May 3, 2010 I may have imagined it but wasn't there a study done several years back that found no significant correlation between parent's formal education level and the success of their home schooled children? My own experience has been that higher education can be a hindrance if it lulls a person into thinking they've got it made. IRL, I know plenty of home school parents who may lack formal, recognized credentials but have plenty of life experience, natural curiosity, and high standards to help them teach their children. Frankly, these days self-education is very do-able. (Hint: have a look a the title of his forum, please.) I've met lots of nerdy kids from public, private, and home schools. I also know lots who aren't. I was nerdy and awkward too as a teen, but was never home schooled. Was the post motivated by trollery or insecurity? Who knows? PS the thumbs-down is not for you Jane! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newbie Posted May 3, 2010 Share Posted May 3, 2010 1. Handwriting, not great, but everything is typed, so more important skill. 2. Proof in pudding, dd 16 got accepted to all six private liberal arts schools she applied to w/scholarships. She accepted the one that gave her the most money. She graduated w/ a 4.0 and is involved in several clubs. Mind you the 4.0 are from outside sources. Not me. I would give her 6.0. Hee hee. 3. Neither ever been to public school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted May 3, 2010 Share Posted May 3, 2010 Was the post motivated by trollery or insecurity? Who knows? Trollery. Now that is an excellent word! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tullia Posted May 3, 2010 Share Posted May 3, 2010 Trollery. Now that is an excellent word! Thank you. We love made up words at our house. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halftime Hope Posted May 3, 2010 Share Posted May 3, 2010 (edited) Momofkhm, There is abundant information on just how well homeschoolers are capable of doing on the College board. (Measureable smarts.) Two or three particular threads come to mind, http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166905 and http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148369 and especially this one: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138236 In addition to that information, I know of two local, entirely homeschooled guys going to the service academies this year, one to the USNA and one to the Air Force Academy. Woot!! It truly is mind-boggling what the kids are accomplishing. Not every student listed in those threads will have homeschooled all the way through, but most of our kids have been able to excel academically, pursue interests and passions, and develop into mature-beyond-their-years young adults precisely BECAUSE of homeschooling. On the other side, I know a former homeschooler who transitioned into PS after 7th grade. This student is *very* intelligent and has been funneled into the public high school's extensive, much applauded AP program and has many AP classes which should count for credit. Yet, due to issues which keep the student from testing well, those APs and ALL the work they represent will count for *nothing* on the college transcript where the student is going. To add further insult, this student was not allowed to take the majority of the APs in areas that were of interest, so now that the student wants to double major, only a few will count for electives, but none toward either of the double majors of interest to the student. The student will have to take 19 hours every semester to graduate within 8 semesters, which is usually the limit for the Big Scholarships. My friend, the mom of said student, lamented the lost time, although I'm sure she'd say there have been many things that were positive experiences at the PS as well. By contrast, b/c we homeschooled, dd was able to take dual credit classes at our local university's NASAD accredited art department. She is going to another college next fall with 15 hours of art credit and 9 of general ed. (core liberal arts) credits. She could finish in 3 years and a summer if desired, but she'll be able to both double major and honors minor if she desires, taking 16 or 17 hours per semester. She has been able to pursue her interests in art and church history and to nurture a fascination with government, in particular the historical and philosophical basis for American government. We couldn't have asked for anything better for her. ETA: I need to acknowledge that it was not through my wisdom. Like many of the other students whose moms have shared on the boards, dd interviewed for competitive scholarships. Since her scores were not stratospheric, there was definitely a "likeability" (or well-roundedness) factor required for her to be competitive with the students that had the top scores. In fact, for one of those interviews she had to overcome not fitting the school's mold, so I'd say it was her people skills that made the difference. I've been long-winded about homeschooling being an asset in my kids' lives, but I have a more serious concern. Have you sat down with your gals and really heard their heart? It sounds like there are issues at the heart of their viewpoint that need to be heard and understood. Maybe the things they have raised are red herrings, or maybe they are right; your family may need to blaze a trail in your area if you are to continue homeschooling. Best wishes as you pursue understanding and making a decision! Edited May 3, 2010 by Valerie(TX) typos and editing out the "bossy" tone. I'm sorry! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Kern Posted May 3, 2010 Share Posted May 3, 2010 I have helped start three schools, each of which was pretty good and my wife teaches at a classical Christian school. For various reasons we have had to put our children in schools from time to time, and while they are not totally psychotic and while the schools were pretty good in each case (all classical), I still regret every minute they spent out of the home school orbit. Our youngest is now in 9th grade (oldest just graduated college) and I can't tell you how pleased I am to have him home for most of the day. He thinks it's so I can teach him Latin and writing. Really, it's so he can make me a gourmet lunch (he's a chef - which he couldn't practice at school), run his little business, and keep the house clean. Yes, he's learning a bit of Latin, Homer, handwriting, and classical composition along the way too. It's such a better life. Oh, he helps with the yard too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halftime Hope Posted May 3, 2010 Share Posted May 3, 2010 Ds2 cooks as well. The rest of us do dishes gratefully when he cooks. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinswife Posted May 3, 2010 Share Posted May 3, 2010 1. My nephew homeschooled since 1st grade--graduated cum laude with a mechanical engineering degree--going for his Masters. 2. His brother is 19 now, a Junior in college and majoring in Musical Education, has won several scholarships because of abilities/talents/grades. 3. His sister in just graduating in 2 weeks, already has 1 year of college under her belt;per dean-advised to major as a Mathematical Engineer (even though she struggled in math as a hser)because her grades were/are just that great. Oh, and she is taking a f/t schedule at the local community college (dual credit) she has received straight A's and college kids call her for tutoring help! 4. My dd8 is 1 year ahead in her schooling and my dd5 has been reading very fluidly. (Okay, so maybe these 2 don't really count, but they're my babies and I am proud of their hard work!) :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CindyJ Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 I have insulted all of you wonderful moms on this board, who are all, I'm sure, doing an outstanding job homeschooling your kids. I should never have been so honest. The thing is, I was observing people who probably don't read this board; you people on here are on another level entirely, and I expect your kids are mostly outstanding. I'm always blown away by the level of discourse here and by the high standards. But what I said about our youth group really is true, although it is also true that I am not talking about huge numbers of kids. I really have been homeschooling for many years, and really have observed homeschooling families for over 20 years, and I have been surprised by the low expectations that some of them have had. But I also know families who have very high expectations and who do a wonderful job. I have also had my own dd's come home shocked at the behavior of the homeschooled kids that they were working with in a summer camp situation, and listened to them compare those kids unfavorably to the other kids they had the rest of the summer (the ones who went to school). Maybe it's just that I've been surprised and disappointed that all homeschooled kids aren't perfect, but I've definitely seen just as many problems in the lives of the homeschoolers as in the lives of the schooled kids. It probably boils down to the families more than to the method of schooling. And Jane in NC, you are right about someone who is not educated being able to ensure that their children receive an education. It's an individual thing; you're right about that. I have been exposed to some people who did not receive a good education themselves, and really did not know that they were giving their own children a poor education, because their standards were so low. But I have lately been disturbed by things that I have observed happening in the lives of some of the homeschooled teens around me, and I do think that homeschoolers need to be careful; too many assume that homeschooling itself prevents or solves all kinds of problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 CindyJ, dear, Consider what happened: you make an observation that homeschooling high school is an inferior choice--on a high school homeschool board! Perhaps if you had made your observation among friends at the Christian school your children attend, your fellow parents could nod sagaciously. But to come to the "teacher's lounge" for parents who have made a commitment to home schooling their teens and then tell us that our kids are "lacking in social skills" while admitting your kids are "a little snobby"--of course, we are insulted! Now I will agree with you that not all homeschooled students receive a superior education, in the same way that I know that all students at public or private schools receive a superior education. Admittedly, writing these words makes me grimace because it is clear that not all of us agree on what a superior education may be. Keep in mind that you are also writing on a board with participants from a variety of places. Some have terrific public school options, some do not. Some have terrific private school options but lack the $15K or whatever the annual tuition is. Some have accelerated children who begin taking college classes early. Some are in the boonies with few library options. We come to this board with whatever resources we muster, whatever opportunities are available to us, and attempt to piece together something that we feel is best for our kids. (I'll tell you right now that my son--a kid in a rural community--thinks Google books is the Great Equalizer for his generation. He says that no one is denied an education if they have an Internet connection.) I am so glad that you have found the best path for your children. Maybe offer some positive suggestions to help us improve? Jane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tullia Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 I have been exposed to some people who did not receive a good education themselves, and really did not know that they were giving their own children a poor education, because their standards were so low. But I have lately been disturbed by things that I have observed happening in the lives of some of the homeschooled teens around me, and I do think that homeschoolers need to be careful; too many assume that homeschooling itself prevents or solves all kinds of problems. CindyJ, I applaud you for coming back to post in the face of criticism, mine included. And, I apologize for the tone of my earlier reply to you. However, I'd like to (gently I hope) suggest that the best way to frame issues of this nature is NOT by using a particular educational choice. And, I don't say that merely to protect anyone's feelings. I believe it's likely that homeschooling is not the cause, but perhaps the effect of less than clear thinking on the part of some parents you're describing. I know too many people who think a private schools, or their "involvement" in the ps will protect their children from the bad things in life. Yes, there are unrealistic parents who homeschool, but I'm going to repeat for emphasis that it's not the choice of educational setting driving the things you observe. It is unrealistic attitudes on the part of the people you're observing. I can almost certainly say that these families would be having difficulties of one kind or another in public or private schools. I have always tried to be honest with my friends, family, and especially my son about the fact that neither we as people nor our life as homeschoolers will be perfect. Our choice to homeschool entailed some negatives as well as positives. But that would have been true if we'd chosen private or public school; different choices, different problems. I think, too, that you need to be clear about what you mean by low standards or poor education. What one family considers slacking may be seen differently by others. And, it is possible for children who were not well served by their high school education to find other ways to achieve satisfying and productive lives. My son took the GED last fall because it was necessary for applying for our state scholarship. I was led to believe that we'd see a scruffy pack of losers on testing day. That turned out to be false. There was a sprinkling of former hsers there for the same reason as my son, and about an equal number of rough-looking "last chancers". However, the majority were bright, motivated people who for one reason or another fell through the cracks of public school. I think that most of the people I saw there will eventually have satisfying productive lives in spite of having started out in a less than optimal way. My final comment is that I'd be very, very cautious about making generalizations based on what one group of teens tells me about another group. My experience is that many otherwise responsible teens haven't yet developed enough discernment to comment on their peers in an authoritative way. I'm not saying that you should not listen or that you should dismiss what they say out of hand, but I think Valerie(TX) posted earlier with an excellent perspective: "Have you sat down with your gals and really heard their heart? It sounds like there are issues at the heart of their viewpoint that need to be heard and understood. Maybe the things they have raised are red herrings, or maybe they are right; your family may need to blaze a trail in your area if you are to continue homeschooling. Best wishes as you pursue understanding and making a decision!" Martha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlsdMama Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 I should never have been so honest. I have also had my own dd's come home shocked at the behavior of the homeschooled kids that they were working with in a summer camp situation, and listened to them compare those kids unfavorably to the other kids they had the rest of the summer (the ones who went to school). Cindy, No. Just simply No. It isn't your "honesty" that is offensive. It's the attitude with which you are attempting to convey a message. Sadly, I don't even think it's coming from you. From what you type, I truly feel your girls are handicapped with a very serious problem and I wish I could tell you how to fix it, but I fear it's too late. I've seen people with this handicap. Perhaps I recognize it because my mom has this problem, my sister has learned it from her, and I fear I have a genetic predisposition to it as well, though I'm doing what I can to keep it out of my life.... It's the art of comparing real people to an idea in your head, find them lacking in order to build yourself up. I'm so sorry. I know of no cure. :( This disease causes people to compare themselves or people they see as "better" to another group of people and find the secondary group lacking. By pointing out the flaws of those around them they are able to avoid getting to know them as real human beings. They're capable of justifying bad behaviours. This allows them to lack general compassion, sympathy, and the ability to know people deeply based on their human characteristics rather than some kind of shallow measuring system. I wish I had a helpful solution. In my particular case I know I need to stay away from people with this disease as it seems to bring out symptoms in me. I have to give myself a pep talk before coming into contact with others that I will not put others "beneath" me in order to build myself up. Your job of breaking this is made harder in that there are two of them that will feed off of one another. **Truly, your girls will suffer from not being called on this attitude. There will always be those who are less educated. That is no crime. When those individuals grow up a little, they will discover the joy of self education. When that happens, there will be no stopping them. A person's failing is not a lack of education. But a person who lacks grace, mercy, or compassion.... They may never discover joy at all. I'm so very, very sorry. I feel like I've just diagnosed your girls with some serious degenerative disease. :( Truly, this is not said in anger or in frustration, but the very sincere hope that you can recognize it and perhaps fix their attitudes or the situation. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 (edited) I have insulted all of you wonderful moms on this board, who are all, I'm sure, doing an outstanding job homeschooling your kids. I should never have been so honest. The thing is, I was observing people who probably don't read this board; you people on here are on another level entirely, and I expect your kids are mostly outstanding. I'm always blown away by the level of discourse here and by the high standards. But what I said about our youth group really is true, although it is also true that I am not talking about huge numbers of kids. I really have been homeschooling for many years, and really have observed homeschooling families for over 20 years, and I have been surprised by the low expectations that some of them have had. But I also know families who have very high expectations and who do a wonderful job. I have also had my own dd's come home shocked at the behavior of the homeschooled kids that they were working with in a summer camp situation, and listened to them compare those kids unfavorably to the other kids they had the rest of the summer (the ones who went to school). Maybe it's just that I've been surprised and disappointed that all homeschooled kids aren't perfect, but I've definitely seen just as many problems in the lives of the homeschoolers as in the lives of the schooled kids. It probably boils down to the families more than to the method of schooling. And Jane in NC, you are right about someone who is not educated being able to ensure that their children receive an education. It's an individual thing; you're right about that. I have been exposed to some people who did not receive a good education themselves, and really did not know that they were giving their own children a poor education, because their standards were so low. But I have lately been disturbed by things that I have observed happening in the lives of some of the homeschooled teens around me, and I do think that homeschoolers need to be careful; too many assume that homeschooling itself prevents or solves all kinds of problems. Cindy, While I dearly respect the women on this board, and Jane is one of my favorites, I do understand and sympathize with some of the sentiments of your post. While I understand the objections that posters are expressing in regards to parental education level and it not being necessarily prohibitive, from my own experience, I do know that my limited knowledge in opportunities has limited my children. For example, one of the posters on the forum, Kathy in Richmond, has become a what I would call a mentor. Her children have had experiences in various math camps and competitions that I knew nothing about. Her kids are or will be attending top tier schools that I would never have considered. However, after being exposed to her and her wonderful dd, my youngest ds is talking in terms of educational opportunities that my oldest, equally gifted ds, wouldn't have dreamed of. So, yes, I did end up limiting the opportunities of my oldest. The flip side is that I don't think their gifts would have necessarily been recognized or developed as well in a school that I have managed at home. Now, my youngest ds is definitely way beyond my oldest b/c I have learned about more opportunities and have made an effort to help him develop those skills. In ps, I think both of them would have just been lumped in with all completely average kids. Unfortunately, I do have to agree with you about the lower levels of expectations of vast majority of the homeschoolers we meet in IRL. Most of the ones we know have the attitude that simply being at home makes them superior to schools. With that, I disagree. Many have argued with me about what are appropriate standards for high school level work. The conversations have been shocking. I have been told that I shouldn't expect high schoolers to not have verb shifts, POV changes, etc in papers. (I don't let my elementary level students get away with that!) Again, unfortunately, I have seen these kids go on to college and completely flounder. We only know 1 other completely homeschooled child from those families who has managed to succeed without repeating many different courses. The bright spot is that there are wonderful successful families. We have been thoroughly blessed by our friendships with the handful that we have encountered. It is simply regrettable that they are the exception and not the norm. FWIW.....I am sorry if others find my comments offensive. They are not meant to be. It is simply my reality and frustration as I try to find real life homeschooling support. It is hard to feel supported when you are constantly criticized as expecting too much or ridiculed for not doing 4 days of high school work with Fridays for socializing, etc. It also impacts your teens' views of what you assign. I am just completely thankful that the Lord has placed those individuals, especially Kathy and her dd, that are beacons of what can be achieved in our path so that we can alter what we do in order to open up greater opportunities for our children. Edited May 4, 2010 by 8FillTheHeart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin in DFW Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 (edited) no message Edited May 6, 2010 by Robin in DFW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4wildberrys Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 Wow, I only answered the Tebow comment, hadn't read the rest yet. Yikes, Cindy, are you sure you're a homeschooler? Your comments smack of the things people who have NO real knowledge of homeschooling would say! :glare: I don't know ANY homeschoolers like you describe! I'm sure there may be a few, but it's certainly not the norm! Even those "without education" do a TERRIFIC job of homeschooling! If they are more relaxed homeschoolers than you are, does that make them wrong? NO! There are as many different ways to homeschool as there are people homeschooling! My children are not that way either, and in an area with hundreds of homeschoolers, though there are different approaches, NONE of them are what you describe! I agree with Jane.......Wow. Just wow! :iagree: Fully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tullia Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 ...I think this thread's about milked dry. IMO Valerie(TX) gave a good summing up to the OP. If nothing else, this thread been a humbling reminder to me that some times folks don't understand how they come across to others, or realize that high standards are best leavened with humility and compassion. CindyJ, I'm stepping out of this thread to avoid making an unwise reply to a post by someone else. Feel free to PM me, though, if you like 'cause I'm truly not trying to get in the last word or score points off your post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4wildberrys Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 Cindy, No. Just simply No. It isn't your "honesty" that is offensive. It's the attitude with which you are attempting to convey a message. Sadly, I don't even think it's coming from you. From what you type, I truly feel your girls are handicapped with a very serious problem and I wish I could tell you how to fix it, but I fear it's too late. I've seen people with this handicap. Perhaps I recognize it because my mom has this problem, my sister has learned it from her, and I fear I have a genetic predisposition to it as well, though I'm doing what I can to keep it out of my life.... It's the art of comparing real people to an idea in your head, find them lacking in order to build yourself up. I'm so sorry. I know of no cure. :( This disease causes people to compare themselves or people they see as "better" to another group of people and find the secondary group lacking. By pointing out the flaws of those around them they are able to avoid getting to know them as real human beings. They're capable of justifying bad behaviours. This allows them to lack general compassion, sympathy, and the ability to know people deeply based on their human characteristics rather than some kind of shallow measuring system. I wish I had a helpful solution. In my particular case I know I need to stay away from people with this disease as it seems to bring out symptoms in me. I have to give myself a pep talk before coming into contact with others that I will not put others "beneath" me in order to build myself up. Your job of breaking this is made harder in that there are two of them that will feed off of one another. **Truly, your girls will suffer from not being called on this attitude. There will always be those who are less educated. That is no crime. When those individuals grow up a little, they will discover the joy of self education. When that happens, there will be no stopping them. A person's failing is not a lack of education. But a person who lacks grace, mercy, or compassion.... They may never discover joy at all. I'm so very, very sorry. I feel like I've just diagnosed your girls with some serious degenerative disease. :( Truly, this is not said in anger or in frustration, but the very sincere hope that you can recognize it and perhaps fix their attitudes or the situation. :( Thank you Kelly! I grew up in this 'world' too---it's not a nice one. And I have to say that Cindy's observations through her teens is very similar to a homeschooling family here that decided to send their kids to various classes at our local public school. And that is when the trouble in our little homeschool world started. When the mother of this family decided to trust every observation and comment her teen girls were saying about other people. It actually blew our cozy, happy little homeschool world apart. Because teen ARE mean, ARE judgemental and their idea of 'well rounded' just might be different than an adults! These kids from this family now bash homeschoolers on a regular basis----infuriating my kids who will be homeschooled exclusively all the way through high school. And I would like to address the assumption that homeschooling is simply about academics. WHY is it always assumed that homeschoolers are supposed to be smarter, better etc than any other schooling option? The burden that puts on us to 'perform' like trained monkey's is ridiculous! Not everyone homeschools for academic reasons, not all homeschoolers are Little Einsteins---and not all public schooled or private Christian school kids are well-rounded social wonders! I went to private school----my handwriting is STILL awful. I went to private school and was shy all the way into college until I found beer! The other homeschooling families I know with BOTH parents holding college degrees don't school their kids as hard as dh and I do----and neither of us has a 4 year degree! It's nice to be able to spout a laundry list of stunning accomplishments from homeschoolers----but I think it is ridiculous that we should be asked to in the first place. Provide 'evidence' to prove homeschooling isn't just for antisocial nerds? With bad handwriting? I agree heartily with what another poster said about kids are kids---whether they homeschool, private school, public school----they come in all shapes, sizes and academic and social ability. Homeschooling does tend to spare kids the "mean stage' of life---but its no guarantee to academic superiority and so homeschoolers shouldn't always be having to prove this either! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 While I dearly respect the women on this board, and Jane is one of my favorites, I do understand and sympathize with some of the sentiments of your post. Waving at you, my dear! You are one of my favs as well! While I understand the objections that posters are expressing in regards to parental education level and it not being necessarily prohibitive, from my own experience, I do know that my limited knowledge in opportunities has limited my children. For example, one of the posters on the forum, Kathy in Richmond, has become a what I would call a mentor. Her children have had experiences in various math camps and competitions that I knew nothing about. Her kids are or will be attending top tier schools that I would never have considered. However, after being exposed to her and her wonderful dd, my youngest ds is talking in terms of educational opportunities that my oldest, equally gifted ds, wouldn't have dreamed of. So, yes, I did end up limiting the opportunities of my oldest. Yes, but would a public or Christian school have opened up these opportunities to your son? I do not think you are giving yourself sufficient credit for the academic success of your eldest. The flip side is that I don't think their gifts would have necessarily been recognized or developed as well in a school that I have managed at home. Now, my youngest ds is definitely way beyond my oldest b/c I have learned about more opportunities and have made an effort to help him develop those skills. In ps, I think both of them would have just been lumped in with all completely average kids. Precisely my point. It is always the rare mentor or the serendipitous connection made that allows us to pursue interesting opportunities outside the norm. I would argue that being homeschooled allows our kids to pursue these options. If my son had been in a brick and mortar last year, he never would have had the chance to spend three weeks digging with a college archaeological field school in May and June. This event introduced him not only to methodologies but interesting people and became the subject of his college application essay. While most of my sons friends (public and private schooled students) were struggling with college apps because they did not know what they wanted to study, my son entered the process knowing precisely what he wanted. Was that not the same with your eldest in that he entered college fairly focused on his end goal? Unfortunately, I do have to agree with you about the lower levels of expectations of vast majority of the homeschoolers we meet in IRL. Most of the ones we know have the attitude that simply being at home makes them superior to schools. With that, I disagree. Many have argued with me about what are appropriate standards for high school level work. The conversations have been shocking. I have been told that I shouldn't expect high schoolers to not have verb shifts, POV changes, etc in papers. (I don't let my elementary level students get away with that!) Again, unfortunately, I have seen these kids go on to college and completely flounder. We only know 1 other completely homeschooled child from those families who has managed to succeed without repeating many different courses. The bright spot is that there are wonderful successful families. We have been thoroughly blessed by our friendships with the handful that we have encountered. It is simply regrettable that they are the exception and not the norm. FWIW.....I am sorry if others find my comments offensive. They are not meant to be. It is simply my reality and frustration as I try to find real life homeschooling support. It is hard to feel supported when you are constantly criticized as expecting too much or ridiculed for not doing 4 days of high school work with Fridays for socializing, etc. It also impacts your teens' views of what you assign. I am just completely thankful that the Lord has placed those individuals, especially Kathy and her dd, that are beacons of what can be achieved in our path so that we can alter what we do in order to open up greater opportunities for our children. Admittedly the homeschoolers in our area approach things differently than we do which is why I depend so much on this board. But then the local public schools are certainly not producing scholars. There is a relatively new Classical Conversations group which seems to have higher standards. I wish them success in growing their program. One of the issues that we see is sheer provincialism. It shocks me at times. My husbands colleagues come from around the country, hold a variety of degrees from respected institutions, yet many do not seem to appreciate the value of education as we do. The local schools, the local CC, the regional university are all just fine, thank you. Many parents seem to feel that if their child wants to pursue a particular activity, then he should go find it. They don't seem to realize that our kids need to be cultivated, nudged sometimes. Do math kids find math camps on their own? Our friends in the Northeast seem more driven in finding educational opportunities for their kids. Is this a reflection of the people we know or is life just more competitive in some places, more laid back in others? Let me mull things over some more. Jane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 Precisely my point. It is always the rare mentor or the serendipitous connection made that allows us to pursue interesting opportunities outside the norm. I would argue that being homeschooled allows our kids to pursue these options. If my son had been in a brick and mortar last year, he never would have had the chance to spend three weeks digging with a college archaeological field school in May and June. This event introduced him not only to methodologies but interesting people and became the subject of his college application essay. While most of my sons friends (public and private schooled students) were struggling with college apps because they did not know what they wanted to study, my son entered the process knowing precisely what he wanted. Was that not the same with your eldest in that he entered college fairly focused on his end goal? Admittedly the homeschoolers in our area approach things differently than we do which is why I depend so much on this board. But then the local public schools are certainly not producing scholars. There is a relatively new Classical Conversations group which seems to have higher standards. I wish them success in growing their program. One of the issues that we see is sheer provincialism. It shocks me at times. My husbands colleagues come from around the country, hold a variety of degrees from respected institutions, yet many do not seem to appreciate the value of education as we do. The local schools, the local CC, the regional university are all just fine, thank you. Many parents seem to feel that if their child wants to pursue a particular activity, then he should go find it. They don't seem to realize that our kids need to be cultivated, nudged sometimes. Do math kids find math camps on their own? Our friends in the Northeast seem more driven in finding educational opportunities for their kids. Is this a reflection of the people we know or is life just more competitive in some places, more laid back in others? Let me mull things over some more. Jane Those ideas are some of the thoughts rolling around in my head. The real problem is not knowing about the opportunities out there or how to even go about them. Hey, admittedly, I am not the greatest guidance counselor considering I made my ds lose his 4 yr university scholarship simply b/c I didn't fill out the FASFA form! Ironically, I have found the criticisms toward my homeschooling approach by people IRL to be brutal. I cannot tell you how "ganged-up" upon I felt when my oldest was in high school and I wouldn't allow him to have Fridays off school or relax his course load. I don't know if the parents felt threatened by our approach and felt it necessary to tell me repeatedly that I was wrong to make them feel better or what. I do know that I learned very quickly to never discuss homeschooling with others IRL. It was a huge source of contention between my oldest and me b/c he was convinced I was completely unreasonable and did not know what I was doing in assigning his work load b/c that is what everyone around him kept telling him. I know that I am guilty of the very provincialism that you describe. It is how I see that I failed our oldest. I have learned so much from Kathy, the internet, etc about what opportunities there are out there. With our oldest, I didn't necessarily think they were necessary. Weren't all things fairly equal as long as we were doing our best using the best materials we could find? I thought yes. But now, I have a completely different POV. Exposure to the opportunities you describe are invaluable. It is knowing how to find them that is the difficult part. I don't think that ps or private schools have the answers automatically either. It is dependent upon whether or not their are people in the system that cue parents to the opportunities. All I am expressing is that I do know that I didn't really see a need or care about those "extras" with my oldest and I do regret that. My rising 8th grader is getting a different view of the math world b/c of it. And ultimately, that is a benefit to him and his future. If I simply remained unmoved and convinced that I had all the answers, I would be responsible for limiting his future options. From my POV, I need to be open to seeing where I need to find improvement for helping our kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lllll Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 My daughters feel like the homeschoolers we know here are not "all that smart", that homeschooling may not be good for the whole way through. They, of course, are exceptions to this since they went to a brick and mortar school for a few years. All the homeschoolers I know to point to, that I know and smart kids, also went to school for a few years. Of course their brother has been homeschooled from the beginning but he's only a rising 5th grader. So if you have homeschooled your student from the beginning and (1) he/she has good handwriting (yes that is one of their criteria!) and (2) he/she in some way has measurable smarts, can you spell that out so I can show them? Or ignore the handwriting bit. :) I think homeschooling is the way to go not just for what they get but for what they don't get. They are thinking that they should go to high school for one year. Help me set them straight before they have this conversation with dh! A quick post to lighten the mood .... I told my kids what your dd's said about hs'ers. Ds (always hs'ed) blurted out, "Is anybody in NC smart? That undercuts the whole premise", says ds2. "You won't find any smart people in NC homeschool circles, and going to public school will not make you smart. You're still from NC." (Thus, your dd's needn't worry ... it's a losing battle.) At which point, darling mother says, "Did you realize you were BORN in NC?" Followed by much laughter from other 4dc and a sheepish expression on ds's face ............ maybe ds has a point after all. ;):lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halftime Hope Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 (edited) One of the issues that we see is sheer provincialism. It shocks me at times. My husbands colleagues come from around the country, hold a variety of degrees from respected institutions, yet many do not seem to appreciate the value of education as we do. The local schools, the local CC, the regional university are all just fine, thank you. Many parents seem to feel that if their child wants to pursue a particular activity, then he should go find it. They don't seem to realize that our kids need to be cultivated, nudged sometimes. Do math kids find math camps on their own? Our friends in the Northeast seem more driven in finding educational opportunities for their kids. Is this a reflection of the people we know or is life just more competitive in some places, more laid back in others? Wow, Jane, you entertwined several issues here, some of which I've been thinking about myself this last year and a half, and I was pondering a bit earlier this morning wrt this thread. As a Texan, I think it would be very fair to characterize many in this state as having provincial pride. I'm rather fond of many of the qualities that make up the storied, collective "Texas psyche": the independence, the self-reliance, the grit, the common sense, the two sides of the coin of humility with respect to others and the "arrogance" to believe in oneself and try the unheard of. OTOH, there is often surprise that Texas is not the center of the universe. :rolleyes: I badly wanted dd to go to college out of state (I've lived in nearly every corner of the country) and experience life in another region, but in the end, we could not afford the two colleges that would have been excellent matches for her in other areas of the country. I'm very happy with the opportunities that she'll have at the college she will attend, but I'm sad that she will not experience the cultural differences (each region seems to have a different culture or personality) that would have enriched her life had she gone elsewhere. Does zeal for educational opportunity vary by region? I do agree with your assessment that it is at a higher level in the northeast, although I note that same drive in the more affluent portions of our metroplex. (Before anyone throws tomatoes, please note that I'm not making any blanket statements--maybe it's just the noise of the marketing of educational opportunities is aimed toward those who have more discretionary income...) I'll be interested to hear more from you on this topic when you finish thinking about it. Edited May 4, 2010 by Valerie(TX) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 Those ideas are some of the thoughts rolling around in my head. The real problem is not knowing about the opportunities out there or how to even go about them. Hey, admittedly, I am not the greatest guidance counselor considering I made my ds lose his 4 yr university scholarship simply b/c I didn't fill out the FASFA form! Ironically, I have found the criticisms toward my homeschooling approach by people IRL to be brutal. I cannot tell you how "ganged-up" upon I felt when my oldest was in high school and I wouldn't allow him to have Fridays off school or relax his course load. I don't know if the parents felt threatened by our approach and felt it necessary to tell me repeatedly that I was wrong to make them feel better or what. I do know that I learned very quickly to never discuss homeschooling with others IRL. It was a huge source of contention between my oldest and me b/c he was convinced I was completely unreasonable and did not know what I was doing in assigning his work load b/c that is what everyone around him kept telling him. I know that I am guilty of the very provincialism that you describe. It is how I see that I failed our oldest. I have learned so much from Kathy, the internet, etc about what opportunities there are out there. With our oldest, I didn't necessarily think they were necessary. Weren't all things fairly equal as long as we were doing our best using the best materials we could find? I thought yes. But now, I have a completely different POV. Exposure to the opportunities you describe are invaluable. It is knowing how to find them that is the difficult part. I don't think that ps or private schools have the answers automatically either. It is dependent upon whether or not their are people in the system that cue parents to the opportunities. All I am expressing is that I do know that I didn't really see a need or care about those "extras" with my oldest and I do regret that. My rising 8th grader is getting a different view of the math world b/c of it. And ultimately, that is a benefit to him and his future. If I simply remained unmoved and convinced that I had all the answers, I would be responsible for limiting his future options. From my POV, I need to be open to seeing where I need to find improvement for helping our kids. Fair enough, but I still think that you should cut yourself some slack with your eldest. His co-op opportunities might not have come to fruition had he been somewhere else. I do not think you "failed" him. It has been lonely not having people with whom to discuss my brand of homeschooling (which is why I enjoyed our lunch and walk together so much!) There is a woman who tries to convince me every time I see her that her unschooled boys know so much more than every other student in the area. Why she preys upon me, I can't fathom, unless she is trying to convince herself that she is indeed right. Through the years, I have had a great deal of second guessing and self doubt. Certainly we have not accomplished all that I had hoped to do in our years of homeschooling and it can be hard not to get wrapped up in a comparison game. But I do feel that our homeschool has served my son well for who he is and where we believe he is going. Then there is all the non-book stuff he knows! He was putting owls to bed at the bird rehabbers last night when a frantic man arrived with a sick loon. Trust me, you don't want to wrangle with a loon even when it is sick. The rehabber was not there but he knew precisely what to do for the incoming patient. The rehabber later sent an email praising his actions. Again, advantage homeschooling. How many brick and mortar kids have time to cultivate meaningful community service projects (or passions)? Perhaps I am an idealist who also believes that everyone is looking for interesting opportunities. A reality check will tell me otherwise, but I do like my ideal world! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwen in VA Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 Perhaps I am an idealist who also believes that everyone is looking for interesting opportunities. :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: This sums up my approach to homeschooling -- thanks, Jane! I look for interesting opportunities! I just got off the phone with a woman who called with some questions about homeschooling her high school-aged son. I spent almost the entire conversation asking her about HIS goals, HIS interests, and HIS passions. I never talked about English or math, but about how HIS education should reflect HIS goals and plans -- and incidentally cover enough of the basics so he can function as an adult. I spent almost the entire time talking about extracurricular opportunities instead of academics..... :) But homeschooling is about so much much more than just academics! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 Perhaps I am an idealist who also believes that everyone is looking for interesting opportunities. A reality check will tell me otherwise, but I do like my ideal world! LOL! Yes, I think you probably are! I actually know only a couple of homeschoolers who do. Ask Kathy! I tried desperately to start a MathCounts team here. I had 8 other families initially say via email they were interested. I had 1 actually show up. His mom is the type actively seeking opportunities (this was also their first yr homeschooling and they removed him from school in order to do so) However, it is extremely sad that in an area with a population of more than 1,225,000 people, there was only 1 other child interested in participating. (and I advertised it on all the local email groups) They don't know what an opportunity they missed! Dh took ds to Jefferson Labs this weekend for an open house on their superconductor research (amazing place)and spoke to a homeschooled boy who got funding to build a cyclotron with a partner. It is an amazing story and one which demonstrates the boundless opportunities that exist for our kids. http://thecyclotronkids.org/aboutus.html However, that is living in the ideal world. My reality is parents who can't understand why taking MUS at a typical grade level in a co-op situation isn't the highest goal I should set for my math accelerated child. They can't understand why I don't want him taking all his math courses at the CC. They view all things as being equal. I know they aren't. However, I am far from being able to provide the education myself! It is where knowing I don't want him limited by my own limitations and those of the most obvious alternatives means I have to work at finding how best to help him succeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halftime Hope Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 It is where knowing I don't want him limited by my own limitations and those of the most obvious alternatives means I have to work at finding how best to help him succeed. You've put my high school philosophy into a very nice sentence. Would that I were as coherent! For dd, I came to view myself primarily as an educational consultant or advocate. Aside from maths, Spanish, early high school histories, my job has transitioned to finding the best teachers and/or mentors for her, ones who have genuine passion and expertise in their field and who--doggonit--believe that teens are capable of far more than what the scope and sequence would limit them to. (I've ruled out several "good" instructors b/c they didn't have a vision for allowing a student to take off and soar.) With my next student, there will be much more hands on nuts and bolts, b/c he is a different kid. Jane mentioned nudging students. That's been me on occasion, as well. Ds1 is no longer the prodigy he once was because age overtakes experience :lol:, but when I first suggested (at 14) that he might enjoy making himself useful in the tech crew world at our new church he balked. Six months later he did just that; at 16 he designed, rented, and programmed the new lighting install for our Christmas pageant (it's not a small production--over 270 cast, crew, and orchestra); and at 17.5 he prepared and executed the entire audio portion of the tech support for that year's pageant. It was my first year running a spot, so it was fun to be involved in his world, even in a small way. Like Jane's ds who knew exactly what to do in a capable and professional way, our kids will find their niche(s), but sometimes they need us to point out the doors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CindyJ Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 Jane in NC, I didn't mean to imply or say that homeschooling high school is an inferior choice. I don't think it is, and I would love to homeschool my youngest all the way through. I did homeschool two of mine partially in high school. I think that you have all said many things which are true, and which I agree with. My comments were made out of frustration with specific things that I have observed, and I don't take them back. But they are things I have observed and that you ladies have not observed, so that's all they are. Martha in NM, you are right that I was not clear about what I considered to be low standards. Knowing how high everyone's standards are on this board, I expect you would all agree were I to describe the situations I was talking about. Your standards and posts often really challenge me to aim higher. But anyone can accuse someone of low standards; that is true. (One of the kids that I am thinking about will go to the CC this year, and he will probably turn out fine). And you're definitely right about the generalizations that teens can make. I am not basing my comments very much at all on comments my kids have made. Those older girls are now adults, and they are more objective now. We have observed both good and bad in homeschooling circles. The thing that I wonder, as I observe both teens who go to school and homeschooled teens, is this. We all believe, I expect, that institutional school can create certain types of problems, which is why many of us choose to homeschool instead. It's not that hard to do a better job than some of those public schools, especially, out there. I just wonder if homeschooling can sometimes result in other types of problems, and if so, we can perhaps avoid those if we know what to look for. If kids need to be exposed to more positive role models than some homeschooled teens are exposed to, or have a larger peer group from which to choose their friends, then we can look for those things. Some of the kids I know just have very small and limited peer groups, because most of the kids their age are in school. And that peer group is not necessarily a positive influence. I think for the sake of those who were very disturbed about the summer camp kids I mentioned, I will try to explain the situation better, because written remarks can come across so harsh, and I guess mine did. Both of my older girls worked several summers at a Christian conference center, which offered programs for the whole family for a week at a time. Every week, a new group came in, and a children's program was included. One of my daughters worked in the dining room; the other was asked to help teach in the children's program. One of the weeks during the summer was Homeschool Week; only homeschooling families came during that week and their kids participated in the children's program. Two years in a row, my girls, who had worked there all summer, came home flabbergasted at the behavior of the homeschooled kids. I encouraged them to remember that those kids might not be used to a group setting, so to be patient and encourage them to raise their hands, that sort of thing, but they said it was more than talking out of turn. I can't be specific with you, because it's been a few years, but it disturbed me. The dining room staff complained about too many kids running around unsupervised, that kind of thing. After all, I also homeschool, and what other homeschool families do reflects on me, as it does all of us. And I had friends who went during that week, and I knew their kids, and knew they were well-behaved, so I don't know what the problem was. But it was a consistent thing. I suppose it's possible that my dds went into that week disliking homeschoolers, but I can't imagine that being the case, especially because they had been homeschooled themselves, and have thanked me for homeschooling them. At that point, my oldest was in college anyway, and was chosen to teach because they thought she was responsible. I just think we need to be careful that we don't have a blindspot when it comes to our own children or to all homeschooled children, thinking that they are the most intelligent, best-behaved children just because they are homeschooled. I have seen the snobbery work both ways - from people who look down on homeschoolers, but also from homeschoolers who are very critical of anyone who puts their children in school. There are lovely families in both groups. But when I started homeschooling, there were many voices out there that, I thought, implied that homeschooling was the perfect solution to all of our educational problems. I have decided that it isn't, although it is a wonderful option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommyfaithe Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 (edited) Read the college board and look at the list of schools where many from this board have had kids accepted. It is impressive. I can totally empathize with your dds, however. Most homeschoolers I know IRL have much lower standards than we do. However, the bright spot is that we also know a family that is way above us as well. The opportunities we have learned about from that family have been a true blessing for us. :) After being in public and private schools and at home......I have no doubts about home being the best opportunity-wise for our children. I don't believe that is true for everyone, though. :iagree: I just have personal testimony from y own experience. 3 children graduated 2 have excellent handwriting :-) 1 graduated Summa Cum Laude from Sage College in Albany # 7 in her class 3.98 GPA and is and has been working in her career feild since High School. DD 2 Grad. w/ AAS in Individual studies from a SUNY 4.0 GPA, received a almost full scholarship to a small private college in their Nutrition program. Finishing up strong this year. She has been working as a Life Guard, Water Safety Instructor and Swim Coach all through High School and College. She intends to use her nutrition degree to work with athletes and their nutrition especially US Swimmers. DS 1 Graduated from homeschool at 16...finished tech trade school as oil burner tech and has many HVAC certs by 18....Is in SUNY school right now studying architecture and building trade while teaching competitive swimming at the local Y...3.8 GPA so far... he is a bit lazy and driving me nuts right now, but he does sound impressive on paper. Also, just to let you know many of their high school years were spent unschooling...productively unschooling using Ambleside online as their spine curr. and chasing many rabbit trails. I insisted on certain subjects being covered including # of books and written narrations/ evaluations of all that was studied...can we say TOMES! LOL. My children have all been commended for their ability to communicate in both in written and oral form and their ability to study and learn the material. They are well read, intelligent, politcally active and aware. I am not the best teacher or the homeschooliest of them all....I think the success was an atmosphere of learning...loads of books, a great library which we use constantly, NO TV OR SCREEN time during the day AT ALL>>>EVER. I made sure we had lots of opportunities to learn and grow...including finding work in ones desired field. When the kids are young they have many hours to explore and play...imagine...create. My older children have told me that homeschooling gave them the time and freedom to persue who they were without having to bend to peer pressure. My kids also did well on their SAT's, GED's (One dd had a perfect score on all verbal parts!) entrance exams etc. The idea I had was for their education to be their own...and I was to facilitate and cattle prod as the case may be. Somehow we got through and they are not ruined...LOL. I don't think everyone will have the same results, quite honestly, I am not sure how we got our results other than the fact that I am compulsive about making sure they are busy doing something productive ALL.THE.TIME. Besides....I know many, many public school kids who failed out, got lost in the shuffle, didn't so well etc. I don't think it is a homeschool/ public school thing....I think it is a kid/family thing...KWIM? Faithe Edited May 4, 2010 by Mommyfaithe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ereks mom Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 (edited) My firstborn, ER, is now a junior in college. He has been on the Dean's List every semester since he started college, and his current GPA is 3.8. He finished high school with a 4.0 (unweighted) average--and he had a rigorous curriculum, including such subjects as advanced chemistry, Biblical Greek, and college algebra during high school. He always scored well on standardized tests (consistently 98th-99th percentile on the ITBS, composite of 30 on the ACT), and he has good handwriting too. My younger child, EK, is now a 9th grader. She has beautiful handwriting (even better than her brother's), and she is on track to have a 4.0 academic average in her studies this year (Algebra 1, Biology, Latin 1, Ancient History & Literature, etc.) Like her brother, she also scores very well on standardized tests. ETA: My dc are very smart and are well-liked by adults, but they are definitely NOT nerds! They are very popular in their respected circles; for example, ER was elected to the homecoming court by the junior class at his college, and was subsequently voted "Class Favorite" among those elected to the court. Edited May 4, 2010 by ereks mom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momofkhm Posted May 4, 2010 Author Share Posted May 4, 2010 IMHO, the entire post smacks of snobbery... But that's just me. Most importantly, it does confuse me when the children determine how the family operates. If the parents feel homeschooling is superior, why do the children decide otherwise? And why do the girls' opinions outweigh their mother's? Giving a child a voice isn't the same as allowing them to drown out the other sounds in the room. Their .02 is exactly worth that... two pennies. It's kind to take it into consideration, but doesn't have enough weight to carry a decision. I'm the OP. As many of us reach the high school years, we need a little hand holding. A little "yes you can do this." That's what I'm looking for! Yes, their opinion matters, more than 2 cents, but not a lot more. There are a lot of things that they do because I'm the mom and I say so. TeenPact this year for instance. They don't want to go. But they are going, they did the homework. They are wearing clothes they don't like to abide by the dress code. So, yes, I am the parent and yes, that is the way our house works. I believe I said in the original post that I need to turn them around before they get to dh. He's the decision maker. His opinion is the end, truly. Now I do have a post that though it has rabbit trails, when they question again, I can say "read this". They can say "wow!" and be done with their insecurities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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