I need hard data ladies

[wapiti]

My daughters feel like the homeschoolers we know here are not "all that smart", that homeschooling may not be good for the whole way through. They, of course, are exceptions to this since they went to a brick and mortar school for a few years. All the homeschoolers I know to point to, that I know and smart kids, also went to school for a few years. Of course their brother has been homeschooled from the beginning but he's only a rising 5th grader.

 

So if you have homeschooled your student from the beginning and (1) he/she has good handwriting (yes that is one of their criteria!) and (2) he/she in some way has measurable smarts, can you spell that out so I can show them? Or ignore the handwriting bit. :)

 

I think homeschooling is the way to go not just for what they get but for what they don't get. They are thinking that they should go to high school for one year. Help me set them straight before they have this conversation with dh!

 

;) You may report to them that:

(1) my kids are in school and have poor handwriting, which is neither the fault of their education nor their smarts; they simply have motor issues. For that matter, I have horrible handwriting too - even in college, my roommates laughed about my "chicken scratch." Fortunately, the age of computers finally has arrived :D

 

(2) they would be wise to avoid making judgments about either a person's intellect or the quality of their schooling based on handwriting.

 

I agree with the other poster who mentioned that perhaps these are merely excuses they've cooked up to spend a year at high school. Sounds like a dialogue is in order (not that I have any idea how to speak with teenagers :tongue_smilie:).

[CindyJ]

Mommyfaithe, your post was inspiring to me. You remind me of a mom I know who unschooled her girls, and they turned out great. I was so impressed, even though I sound like a snob about high standards. But she gave a lot of guidance. And the no television thing is really impressive.

[Nan in Mass]

I haven't read all the posts here, so if someone has already mentioned this, forgive me...

 

It occurs to me that there might be a reasonable explanation of CindyJ's daughters' camp experience. We all know that some children wind up homeschooled because schools cannot deal with them. Schools, by definition, are places where education is usually combined with a certain amount of crowd control. Some children are wired such that they take more managing in classroom situations than one teacher has time for. These children often learn fine in home situations, where they aren't overwhelmed, overlooked, or overexcited, and where they don't have to sit still in one place for any length of time. Even ordinary children who are homeschooled may well be over-everything-ed when put into a camp situation. My polite, quiet, considerate, well-behaved public schooled son caught a chipmunk, duct-taped a child to his cot in the middle of the night, rigged buckets of water, made a little boy throw up by suggesting a wasabi pea eating contest, and... The more rambunctious ones managed to tie a councilor up in his sleeping bag and hoist him up the flagpole. All those children were well aware of how they were expected to behave in crowd situations like a dining hall. The more ordinary homeschoolers might not have, and their parents might not have thought to provide some guide-lines like stay in your seat and keep your voice down or mass chaos ensues. So - what we have is a large crowd of homeschoolers, some of whom don't do well in crowded indoor places where they are expected to hold still and be quiet, and many of the rest of whom, although capable of doing that, don't know that they are expected to do so, especially when surrounded by others who aren't. The parents were probably in vacation mode and trying to escape controlling their children for a bit. To the poor daughters, the resulting chaos probably was traumatic. Even a few out-of-control children in a mass dining situation can make it seem like the whole hall is in chaos, and the daughters probably didn't have time to say to themselves, "Ok, exactly what percentage of families have children who are behaving inappropriately?" If they are like my sons, they call a few "everyone".

 

We stopped doing nature programs that were aimed at homeschoolers because the homeschoolers were more interested in socializing than learning, and everyone, mothers included, quickly wandered off away from the teacher. The students were lively and interested in the information for a little while, but their attention span for the information was much shorter than my children's. Public school groups (I've volunteered a bit) are polite about interrupting and know to stay put, but they often aren't interested enough in the information to ask any questions. It seems like you can't win GRIN. My sister, who teaches nature programs, says she prefers the lively homeschoolers to the bored, dulled-down public schoolers, but she is a teacher who has a fairly easy time keeping children paying attention and a high tolerance of bunny trails, movement, and interruptions. Her experience is that the homeschoolers tend to be better at interacting with adults. But these, like Cindy's daughters' comments, are generalizations. Generalizations are dangerous, especially when your audience is all among the generalized.

 

-Nan

Edited May 5, 2010 by Nan in Mass

[Brindee]

It occurs to me that there might be a reasonable explanation of CindyJ's daughters' camp experience. We all know that some children wind up homeschooled because schools cannot deal with them. Schools, by definition, are places where education is usually combined with a certain amount of crowd control. Some children are wired such that they take more managing in classroom situations than one teacher has time for. These children often learn fine in home situations, where they aren't overwhelmed, overlooked, or overexcited, and where they don't have to sit still in one place for any length of time. Even ordinary children who are homeschooled may well be over-everything-ed when put into a camp situation. My polite, quiet, considerate, well-behaved public schooled son caught a chipmunk, duct-taped a child to his cot in the middle of the night, rigged buckets of water, made a little boy throw up by suggesting a wasabi pea eating contest, and... The more rambunctious ones managed to tie a councilor up in his sleeping bag and hoist him up the flagpole. All those children were well aware of how they were expected to behave in crowd situations like a dining hall. The more ordinary homeschoolers might not have, and their parents might not have thought to provide some guide-lines like stay in your seat and keep your voice down or mass chaos ensues. So - what we have is a large crowd of homeschoolers, some of whom don't do well in crowded indoor places where they are expected to hold still and be quiet, and many of the rest of whom, although capable of doing that, don't know that they are expected to do so, especially when surrounded by others who aren't. The parents were probably in vacation mode and trying to escape controlling their children for a bit. To the poor daughters, the resulting chaos probably was traumatic. Even a few out-of-control children in a mass dining situation can make it seem like the whole hall is in chaos, and the daughters probably didn't have time to say to themselves, "Ok, exactly what percentage of families have children who are behaving inappropriately?" If they are like my sons, they call a few "everyone".

 

We stopped doing nature programs that were aimed at homeschoolers because the homeschoolers were more interested in socializing than learning, and everyone, mothers included, quickly wandered off away from the teacher. The students were lively and interested in the information for a little while, but their attention span for the information was much shorter than my children's. Public school groups (I've volunteered a bit) are polite about interrupting and know to stay put, but they often aren't interested enough in the information to ask any questions. It seems like you can't win GRIN. My sister, who teaches nature programs, says she prefers the lively homeschoolers to the bored, dulled-down public schoolers, but she is a teacher who has a fairly easy time keeping children paying attention and a high tolerance of bunny trails, movement, and interruptions. Her experience is that the homeschoolers tend to be better at interacting with adults. But these, like Cindy's daughters' comments, are generalizations. Generalizations are dangerous, especially when your audience is all among the generalized.

 

-Nan

Great post Nan! Clear and concise.........Thankyou!

 

I haven't read all the posts here, so if someone has already mentioned this, forgive me...

 

My sister, who teaches nature programs, says she prefers the lively homeschoolers to the bored, dulled-down public schoolers, but she is a teacher who has a fairly easy time keeping children paying attention and a high tolerance of bunny trails, movement, and interruptions. Her experience is that the homeschoolers tend to be better at interacting with adults.

I just HAVE to say it: I didn't see ANYone who already mentioned anything about your sister! :tongue_smilie::lol::lol:

[CindyJ]

"The daughters probably didn't have time to say to themselves, "Ok, exactly what percentage of families have children who are behaving inappropriately?"

 

Nan in MASS, that is a very good point. You made some very good observations in your post. After I made my post, I actually thought also of an explanation. I taught school years ago, and I figured out that if I had a discipline problem in my classroom, I could almost always isolate the problem to 1 or 2 kids, but you don't necessarily notice that right away. All you notice right away is that the class in general is not behaving. But if you isolate the problem kids, and get them under control, then the rest of the class usually settles down. So it is possible that there were a few problem kids in that homeschool group, maybe one or two families even, that was creating the problem. Of course, then the whole group would have been blamed as being badly behaved. Because again, I knew that my friend's children were great. But you made some good points. I have heard other homeschool moms complain also about the behavior of kids during field trips, and maybe some of the moms are just tired. Maybe public school teachers are stricter, or something.

[Robin in DFW]

no message

Edited May 6, 2010 by Robin in DFW

[2cents]

My evidence:

Ds started college in 10th grade, scored 31 on ACT, earned a full Bright Futures Scholarship. He is halfway through his college degree plan. :)

[mcconnellboys]

Well, I homeschooled my older son from second grade through ninth grade. He wanted to go back to school for the social aspects because we didn't have a very large community of high school age homeschoolers (who he wanted to associate with, at least) at that time. We knew that even though he was enrolling in a private school here with a good reputation, academics would not be as strong as it had been at home (where he was taking dual credit courses, etc.)

 

His handwriting as a child was so beautiful that most people didn't believe he was writing his own things (science fair project boards, etc.) He uses italic style cursive. His writing as a teen got worse in the sense that he writes so fast he does not close the tops of his a's, d's, sometimes doesn't cross his t's, etc. and I think this makes his writing difficult for some to read. However, it's still better than most boys' handwriting. In fact, I'm not sure I know any publically schooled boys who have nice handwriting, LOL.

 

I know a girl here who was homeschooled all the way through school who is a National Merit Scholar on a full ride to a nearby private university. This same university has accepted my son for next year and it's the one he's chosen to attend. (She has nice handwriting, by the way.....) He is on partial scholarship there (and would have had a better scholarship if he would have stayed home, LOL, because I would have worked him harder.....)

 

I know several kids who are highly gifted. Each is pursuing a slightly different educational path. One who is 14 is now "officially" graduated from hs and enrolled in college. He entered as a triple major junior (I think) because he'd already been doing college classes there during "high school" for the past couple of years. I have no idea what his handwriting is like. Some of the others I'm thinking of may not have nice handwriting, because of dyslexia issues, etc., but that doesn't mean they're not gifted.....

 

On the other end of the spectrum, we know many families who are hsing special needs kids who are probably not college bound in any sense of that word. I'm sure there are plenty of kids in between, but most of those here are involved with a very conservative religious hs group for high schoolers and since I'm not comfortable with many of their policies and procedures, I can't stomach joining in with that. So, if things don't change, my younger son may end up at the same private high school as my older son. It's not my preference, but if he wants a social group, my town doesn't really have much to offer. Every town will be different, however.

 

Oh, my younger son attended a Montessori school through kindergarten. He was not really reading or writing when he came home in first grade. He has some problems with writing, related to an LD, but he is actually getting quite a bit better (and there's nothing wrong with his actual content - he's a great story teller). Measurable smarts? Ummmmm, he's just turned 12 and has been doing an outside Algebra class all year. Does that count? He's getting pretty proficient in Spanish and Latin speaking...... People are always commenting about how quick witted he is..... I'm not sure how they want to measure "smarts"......

[Sharon in MD]

We homeschooled from 2nd all the way through 12th....it wasn't easy and I certainly doubted from time to time.

 

My son is a freshman at Drexel University. He is in the Honors college there, an AJ Drexel scholar (name of the scholarship program) has been on the dean's list both quarters so far and has been selected to participate in a prestigious summer research program with them.

 

He has worked his tail off, and he worked his tail off with me too, in homeschool.

 

He won scholarships and really special admissions to programs at top state universities as well.

 

He competed for and won places in competitive summer programs throughout high school

 

This sounds like a brag list...but I'm trying to say he worked hard and applied HIMSELF and competed just like every other local public and private schooled kid and found that he was AT LEAST on par with them. He has not had any trouble fitting in at college...he has lots of friends and is just plain normal...

 

So, if your question is "Can home schoolers live in and compete in the real world?" Yeah...we can. And has he fared better than two of his best public schooled friends of the same age....yes, he has...he is far more grounded, his moral compass is sound, and he knows what he wants and is chasing it...rather than perhaps chasing the figment of a peer group.

 

Hope this help you. I do look forward to reading the whole thread...

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I guess the question that I would ask anyone is if a student is smart and motivated because of the educational situation they are in, or if they and their families would find ways to draw the maximum benefit from whatever situation they were in.

 

I spent the last couple days giving presentations at the local high school on service academies, what they offer and how to apply. I have one candidate who was in one of the classes who has to choose from two different academies and two ROTC scholarships. I had other students who didn't seem to understand that Cs and Ds in math and science were going to negatively impact their application.

 

I've been around gifted and smart homeschoolers. And I've been around homeschoolers who weren't nearly as special as they liked to think that they were.

 

I think that homeschooling can offer flexibility and responsiveness that a school might not offer. But in the the best situation, a school can support high level courses with teachers who have years of expertise. Some homeschoolers will take their liberty to be less than challenging. And some schools offer high level work in name only or not at all.

 

FWIW, homeschooler behavior runs the gamut as well, at least in my experience. But I think that people are quick to say that it is a result of homeschooling, where if the behavior was seen from a public school family, the blame would be put onto the poorly disciplined child or non-responding parent, rather than blaming an educational choice.

[Brindee]

 

FWIW, homeschooler behavior runs the gamut as well, at least in my experience. But I think that people are quick to say that it is a result of homeschooling, where if the behavior was seen from a public school family, the blame would be put onto the poorly disciplined child or non-responding parent, rather than blaming an educational choice.

YES! :iagree:

[Nan in Mass]

I haven't read all the posts. Probably someone has already pointed this out, but I'll say it anyway...

 

I think first they need to define smart. Perhaps they have and that is why handwriting is included in your inquiry? Then I think they need to define "school". Public school? For just high school or does elementary school count? I think they need to recognize that it is going to be difficult to find many examples of homeschoolers who have been entirely educated at home by their parents. Most parents outsource at least a few things in high school. Mine have taken CC classes. Many do coop classes. Others do some sort of online classes. Which of those count as "school"?

 

Perhaps what they really are wanting (and this is typical of teenagers) is to learn not to stand out? Homeschoolers often do stand out in some way. Perhaps because of the area in which I live, I think of homeschoolers not as unsmart but as the super smart and geeky. They definately are noticable as different than the average teenager GRIN. I'm not sure your children would like that any better than being their own stereotypical version of unsmart. If they survived the year in high school, they would learn to blend in.

 

Or perhaps they feel their needs aren't being met at home and don't know how to tell you that? They may not even recognize that that is why they want to go to school. It is scary homeschooling high school when you know that you will be dumped at some point into a college classroom. Having gone to school, they are probably well aware how many classroom skills they are lacking. Their comment on handwriting makes me think this might be the real problem. Perhaps they are looking at some of the older homeschoolers they know and wondering how they are possibly going to survive a college classroom and worrying that they, too, will have trouble. If this is the case, then reassuring them that you will help them to learn the skills they need, like researching at the library, producing a longer papers, making powerpoint presentations, science lab skills, and studying efficiently. If these are not things they've seen you do before, they may be worried that you are incapable of teaching them.

 

In either case, I don't think giving them examples of children on this board, either the born intelligent sort or hard-working and well-taught sort, is going to help them. What will help them is talking about their fears, either social or academic, and forming a plan to deal with them, like community college classes or online classes plus lots of volunteering with adults. Nobody wants to be clueless and ignorant. I would say you must be doing a pretty good job with them for them to have the insight to think about what they do and do not want to be like as teenagers/grownups.

 

-Nan

[4wildberrys]

So, if your question is "Can home schoolers live in and compete in the real world?" Yeah...we can. And has he fared better than two of his best public schooled friends of the same age....yes, he has...he is far more grounded, his moral compass is sound, and he knows what he wants and is chasing it...rather than perhaps chasing the figment of a peer group.

 

Hope this help you. I do look forward to reading the whole thread...

 

I really like this!!! Thanks :D

[readwithem]

Ouch! Cindy, I am a fairly well educated person but my parents were not. No, I was not homeschooled, but I was presented with numerous educational opportunities as a young person. My parents' lack of education did not prevent them from taking me to the library weekly or from sending me to good private schools where I studied Latin which my Dad felt was very important even if he had not studied it. We could not afford a summer vacation with motels so we traveled around this beautiful country of ours pulling a camper and eating our meals at roadside tables. As a child I saw the Grand Canyon, Yellowstone, the monuments in DC, etc. Overall, my parents did a nice job with me, if I may say so myself.

 

 

 

Last night my family watched "Gifted Hands," the story of Ben Carson whose own 3rd-grade educated mother knew his sons could do better. She turned off the TV and made the boys write a report on two library books each week, even though she couldn't read the reports.

 

Ben went on to become a neurosurgeon at Johns Hopkins and his brother is an engineer.

[Brindee]

Last night my family watched "Gifted Hands," the story of Ben Carson whose own 3rd-grade educated mother knew his sons could do better. She turned off the TV and made the boys write a report on two library books each week, even though she couldn't read the reports.

 

Ben went on to become a neurosurgeon at Johns Hopkins and his brother is an engineer.

I've read that book, and a couple other books he has written. AMAZING! I was able to see him speak a couple of summers ago. He's very soft-spoken, and funny, and humble! Have you seen the movie about him? It was very well done!