Looking for Very Thorough Grammar or complete English program for 4th, but SECULAR!

[JennyW]

I've read message after message about how awesome, inexpensive, and thorough Rod & Staff is. That's great, but I am looking for a completely secular program, either for stand-alone grammar or for a complete language arts curriculum.

 

So is there something out there that is secular and thorough? I've looked at Analytical Grammar, and that is one I'm considering, but I'd love a program that continues year after year.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Jenny

[Just Robyn]

MCT?

[momto5blessings]

I have not used it, but I believe there is a program called Voyages in English that is available as a secular text.

Others on the board may know more, I just somehow remember that.

 

Something else that is really good (at least I think so) is Winston Grammar Basic and also the Winston Grammar Advanced. You can see samples at Rainbow Resource if you are interested.

 

HTH,

Pamela

[Corraleno]

MCT?

 

I second MCT. You could start with the Island level in 4th, then do Town & Voyage in 5th & 6th, and Magic Lens/WWTW/Advanced Academic Writing in 7th/8th/9th. MCT integrates grammar, writing, vocabulary, and poetics, and is very very meaty, especially as you move into the upper levels. It's also totally secular.

 

Jackie

[Lovedtodeath]

Here are some I was considering:

 

Growing with Grammar

 

combine with Writing Tales or Classical Writing

 

or

 

The Bridge to Latin

[branycbur]

We used Junior Analytical Grammar this year (grade 4) and my dd and I both loved it. It is thorough and affordable. We worked a little longer than the 11 weeks because there were a few chapters we devoted more time to. We plan on picking up AG in 6th grade.

[LauraGB]

Love Voyages in English. Very thorough. The new versions (2006, 2009) are completely secular. The older ones are Catholic, so if you are looking at used copies, be sure that they are the newer versions. You can find the scope and sequence, samples, etc. by digging around here http://www.loyolapress.com/voyages-in-english-resources.htm .

Edited March 16, 2010 by LauraGB

[DarlaS]

I've read message after message about how awesome, inexpensive, and thorough Rod & Staff is. That's great, but I am looking for a completely secular program, either for stand-alone grammar or for a complete language arts curriculum.

 

So is there something out there that is secular and thorough? I've looked at Analytical Grammar, and that is one I'm considering, but I'd love a program that continues year after year.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Jenny

 

Growing with Grammar. Best value out there as it covers what you need for the grade level, and if you add writing, it's done (For writing you can use Writing with Ease, or read Ruth Beechick's book You Can Teach Your Child Successfully which is alsio a gentle effective approach.).

 

For grade 4 writing, you just want your student to be able to write good sentences that are beginning to be a little more complex, start working on paragraphs and to be writing about a variety of topics. It's not that intimidating (yet!).

[Halcyon]

I've read message after message about how awesome, inexpensive, and thorough Rod & Staff is. That's great, but I am looking for a completely secular program, either for stand-alone grammar or for a complete language arts curriculum.

 

So is there something out there that is secular and thorough? I've looked at Analytical Grammar, and that is one I'm considering, but I'd love a program that continues year after year.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Jenny

 

I spent a long time researching which grammar program to use, and decided on Growing with Grammar. We received it last week, and it looks wonderful. We looked at AG too, but GWG is very open and go, and also does diagramming which was important to me. We are finishing up the workbook for Voyages in English, called Exercises in English (book C) and liked it fine, but if I remember correctly, the VIE books are quite expensive, and for the money, GWG gives me just what I am looking for. We'll also be using WWE3, Megawords and Vocab from the Roots Up.

Edited March 16, 2010 by Halcyon

[nandmsmom]

Another vote for Growing with Grammar. My kids actually look forward to it. Lots of diagramming and good stuff, but totally open and go, as well as being secular.

[Country Mouse]

What about First Language Lessons Level 4?

[radiobrain]

I am going to have to second (or third) MCT, either Island or Town level.. depending on how comfortable your kid is with grammar already.

 

Search for the bazillions threads about it.

 

Cathy Duffy just did a decent review about it.

 

There are so many great choices out there, which wasn't always the case...but whatever you choose, it will be fine. :D

[FawnsFunnyFarm]

We used Easy Grammar and Writing Strands. I love the Writing Strands and half love the Easy Grammar. I really think I want to check out Growing with Grammar for my younger kids.

[Crimson Wife]

It may be a bit more advanced than you're looking for, but the book I'm 95% sure that I'm going to be using after my DD finishes the "town" level of MCT is Thinking Through Grammar: 5th and 6th Grade by Dr. Arthur Whimbey. I've heard some good things about the high school level series on this forum.

[kewb]

We use Growing with Grammar and Writing Strands. Although I am considering a different writing program for next year. Completely secular and my kids love it.

[Maddysmom26]

Hope you dont mind Im going to Jump in with a question about Growing with grammer- How do you know which level to start your child??

Im looking for 5th grade?

 

Thanks;)

[nukeswife]

I was using JAG and it is a good program but we'd have to slow it way down for my son to truly "get it" I had GWG 5 on hand so we are using that now and really enjoy it. Very thorough and completely secular. For writing we're using IEW SWI A and although we tried it last year and it was a bust I think he just wasn't ready (he's in 5th now) and this year he's really enjoying it and getting into it. I'm in no rush to finish it so we're taking it slow and adding in lots of extra practice with source texts he picks out at the library.

 

As for the following question.

Hope you dont mind Im going to Jump in with a question about Growing with grammer- How do you know which level to start your child??

Im looking for 5th grade?

 

Thanks;)

 

Just jump in at the grade level your child will be at. They cover it all each year, but at that grade level. So even though they are starting the year with sentences and the parts of it, it's written on a 5th grade level and may expect a little more writing etc. than the lower level. You don't have to do any of the previous grades in order to use any particular grade.

 

Hope that I explained that clearly, if not let me know and I'll try again :)

[JennyW]

Wow, thanks everyone! I will look into all of those. But a quick question - what does MCT stand for? It isn't on my acronym cheat sheet.

[MyLittleWonders]

Michael Clay Thompson - Royal Fireworks Press. And I ditto the recommendation. :D

[Jamee]

Hope you dont mind Im going to Jump in with a question about Growing with grammer- How do you know which level to start your child??

Im looking for 5th grade?

 

Thanks;)

 

I was wondering the same. THanks for asking. So level five is fifth grade then?

[keptwoman]

AG and Brave Writer in this house. Until AG we do less formal grammar.

[HollyDay]

Some programs I have used either as a supplement or a stand alone

 

Growing with Grammar

Easy Grammar with Daily Grams

Editor in Chief

Word Roots

Spelling Power

Jensens

Wordsmith series

Ignite Your Writing

[Halcyon]

I was wondering the same. THanks for asking. So level five is fifth grade then?

 

Yes, unless your child has done lots of grammar. My son is almost 8 but we put him in GWG 4 for next year, as he's finishing up Grade 3 in another curricuulm.

[Haiku]

Thinking Through Grammar: 5th and 6th Grade [/i]by Dr. Arthur Whimbey.

 

This looks awesome! :D

 

Tara

[Crimson Wife]

My order arrived yesterday. Upon first preview, it struck me as a solid, no-nonsense consumable work-text. It is designed to be self-teaching; however, most of the answers to the exercises are listed directly underneath them. So I would only recommend using it with a child whom you trust to actually do the work rather than copy the book's answers.

 

Here is the TOC:

 

Chapter 1 A Basic Sentence: Subject, Action Verb, Object

Chapter 2 Subject-Verb Agreement in Number

Chapter 3 Creating Past Tense Verbs

Chapter 4 Irregular Verbs

Chapter 5 Intransitive Verbs

Chapter 6 Stative Verbs: Verbs Expressing Mental States and Various Relationships

Chapter 7 Using Will to Write About the Future

Chapter 8 Special People (You and I) Require Special Verb Patterns

Chapter 9 A Special Family of Verbs: Is, Was, Are, and Were

Chapter 10 Writing About the Future: The Base Form Be

Chapter 11 The Present Progressive Tense With a Singular Subject

Chapter 12 The Present Progressive Tense With a Plural Subject

Chapter 13 The Past Progressive Tense

Chapter 14 Special People (You and I) With the Be Verbs

Chapter 15 Nouns

Chapter 16 Proper Nouns

Chapter 17 Possessive Forms of Nouns

Chapter 18 Adding Adjectives to Sentences

Chapter 19 Modifying One Noun With Two Adjectives

Chapter 20 Modifying a Noun With Another Noun

Chapter 21 Placing Two Adjectives After the Noun They Modify [Note: this chapter deals with appositives but does not name them as such]

Chapter 22 Expressing Comparisons with Adjectives

Chapter 23 Adverbs That Describe an Action and End in -ly

Chapter 24 Moving Adverbs [Note: this chapter deals with opening and delayed adverbs but does not name them as such]

Chapter 25 Adverbs Modifying Adjectives

Chapter 26 Other Types of Adverbs

Chapter 27 Prepositions: Using Prepositional Phrases to Modify Nouns

Chapter 28 Prepositional Phrases That Provide Information About Actions and Events

Chapter 29 Prepositional Phrases At the Beginnings of Sentences

Chapter 30 Prepositional Phrases That Modify Objects in Other Prepositional Phrases

Chapter 31 Subject-Verb Agreement With an Intervening Prepositional Phrase

Chapter 32 Coordinating Conjunctions: Joining Entire Sentences

Chapter 33 Using "And" to Join the Subjects of Sentences with Identical Predicates

Chapter 34 Using "And" to Join Sentences with Identical Subjects but Different Predicates

Chapter 35 Using "Or" to Join the Subjects of Sentences with Different Subjects but Identical Predicates

Chapter 36 Using "Or" to Join Sentences with Identical Subjects but Different Predicates

Chapter 37 Using "But" to Combine Sentences That Are Partly Identical and Partly Different

Chapter 38 Using "And" to Combine Three Sentences That Are Partly Identical and Partly Different

Chapter 39 Combining Sentences with Expressions Such as "In Addition To" and "As Well As"

[branycbur]

My order arrived yesterday. Upon first preview, it struck me as a solid, no-nonsense consumable work-text. It is designed to be self-teaching; however, most of the answers to the exercises are listed directly underneath them. So I would only recommend using it with a child whom you trust to actually do the work rather than copy the book's answers.

 

Here is the TOC:

 

Chapter 1 A Basic Sentence: Subject, Action Verb, Object

Chapter 2 Subject-Verb Agreement in Number

Chapter 3 Creating Past Tense Verbs

Chapter 4 Irregular Verbs

Chapter 5 Intransitive Verbs

Chapter 6 Stative Verbs: Verbs Expressing Mental States and Various Relationships

Chapter 7 Using Will to Write About the Future

Chapter 8 Special People (You and I) Require Special Verb Patterns

Chapter 9 A Special Family of Verbs: Is, Was, Are, and Were

Chapter 10 Writing About the Future: The Base Form Be

Chapter 11 The Present Progressive Tense With a Singular Subject

Chapter 12 The Present Progressive Tense With a Plural Subject

Chapter 13 The Past Progressive Tense

Chapter 14 Special People (You and I) With the Be Verbs

Chapter 15 Nouns

Chapter 16 Proper Nouns

Chapter 17 Possessive Forms of Nouns

Chapter 18 Adding Adjectives to Sentences

Chapter 19 Modifying One Noun With Two Adjectives

Chapter 20 Modifying a Noun With Another Noun

Chapter 21 Placing Two Adjectives After the Noun They Modify [Note: this chapter deals with appositives but does not name them as such]

Chapter 22 Expressing Comparisons with Adjectives

Chapter 23 Adverbs That Describe an Action and End in -ly

Chapter 24 Moving Adverbs [Note: this chapter deals with opening and delayed adverbs but does not name them as such]

Chapter 25 Adverbs Modifying Adjectives

Chapter 26 Other Types of Adverbs

Chapter 27 Prepositions: Using Prepositional Phrases to Modify Nouns

Chapter 28 Prepositional Phrases That Provide Information About Actions and Events

Chapter 29 Prepositional Phrases At the Beginnings of Sentences

Chapter 30 Prepositional Phrases That Modify Objects in Other Prepositional Phrases

Chapter 31 Subject-Verb Agreement With an Intervening Prepositional Phrase

Chapter 32 Coordinating Conjunctions: Joining Entire Sentences

Chapter 33 Using "And" to Join the Subjects of Sentences with Identical Predicates

Chapter 34 Using "And" to Join Sentences with Identical Subjects but Different Predicates

Chapter 35 Using "Or" to Join the Subjects of Sentences with Different Subjects but Identical Predicates

Chapter 36 Using "Or" to Join Sentences with Identical Subjects but Different Predicates

Chapter 37 Using "But" to Combine Sentences That Are Partly Identical and Partly Different

Chapter 38 Using "And" to Combine Three Sentences That Are Partly Identical and Partly Different

Chapter 39 Combining Sentences with Expressions Such as "In Addition To" and "As Well As"

 

Thank you so much for sharing this! Every time I go to that website I am underwhelmed by the lack of information or sample pages. I need to see something before I can buy it! This TOC is very helpful. And I don't think I would like the answers right there...so you saved me some money. Thanks again!

[Matryoshka]

My order arrived yesterday. Upon first preview, it struck me as a solid, no-nonsense consumable work-text. It is designed to be self-teaching; however, most of the answers to the exercises are listed directly underneath them. So I would only recommend using it with a child whom you trust to actually do the work rather than copy the book's answers.

 

 

How do you like this compared to the Killgallon books? I was actually thinking of doing the Whimbey Sentence Combining program for middle school till I found MCT, but I still think tossing something like this into the mix at some point might not be a bad idea. I did go buy Story Grammar for Elementary for my younger after you mentioned it, to do alonside Sentence Island (and WWE!) - think the poor kid's going to have enough LA? Her grammar's actually pretty good - she loves doing the 4-level analysis and "gets" it - it's the writing I feel like I have to work on with her, and I like this sentence combining/composing method - yet another angle to come at it with.

 

So is this similar to the Killgallon books? Which do you like better? I don't like the idea of the answers on the page, I have to say.

[Spy Car]

:lurk5:

[Crimson Wife]

How do you like this compared to the Killgallon books? I was actually thinking of doing the Whimbey Sentence Combining program for middle school till I found MCT, but I still think tossing something like this into the mix at some point might not be a bad idea. I did go buy Story Grammar for Elementary for my younger after you mentioned it, to do alongside Sentence Island (and WWE!) - think the poor kid's going to have enough LA? Her grammar's actually pretty good - she loves doing the 4-level analysis and "gets" it - it's the writing I feel like I have to work on with her, and I like this sentence combining/composing method - yet another angle to come at it with.

 

So is this similar to the Killgallon books? Which do you like better? I don't like the idea of the answers on the page, I have to say.

 

I actually had my DD do a chapter out of Thinking Through Grammar today because she was struggling with one of the Practice Town exercises. It was sentence 5, which reads: "The speaker glared down with a supercilious expression." My DD had trouble identifying the word "down" as an adverb and included it as part of the prepositional phrase "with a supercilious expression". So I decided to try out the Dr. Whimbey.

 

I scanned of one of the pages she completed but couldn't figure out how to get the file size small enough to attach to this message. So you can see it on my blog here.

 

I am as of yet undecided about the Dr. Whimbey book. It is very different from the MCT materials we are using this semester. Those of you who love, love, love MCT are probably not going to like Thinking Through Grammar very much. It is traditional both in its tone and in the way it is organized. It doesn't cover some of the more advanced concepts MCT does like clauses, participles, gerunds, etc. but it goes into a lot more detail on certain topics.

 

Thinking Through Grammar is also very different from the Kilgallon Story Grammar book. The Kilgallon book is non-traditional in its S&S and the exercises contained within it. The authors assume that the student is already familiar with the parts of speech and the focus is on "sentence tools" such as openers, S-V splits (such as appositives), and closers.

 

We loved Story Grammar and I definitely plan to use the middle school book at some point. Not sure yet about the other Dr. Whimbey books or the other MCT grammar books.

[Matryoshka]

Thinking Through Grammar is also very different from the Kilgallon Story Grammar book. The Kilgallon book is non-traditional in its S&S and the exercises contained within it. The authors assume that the student is already familiar with the parts of speech and the focus is on "sentence tools" such as openers, S-V splits (such as appositives), and closers.

 

Would you mind elaborating a bit more on the differences between the Killgallon and Whimbley books? From their subtitles (Sentence Combining and Sentence Composing - can't remember which was which) - I had somehow gotten the idea that they were in the same vein.

 

Would you mind a bit of compare/contrast? :)

[Crimson Wife]

Would you mind elaborating a bit more on the differences between the Killgallon and Whimbley books? From their subtitles (Sentence Combining and Sentence Composing - can't remember which was which) - I had somehow gotten the idea that they were in the same vein.

 

Would you mind a bit of compare/contrast? :)

 

Most of the exercises in the Kilgallon Story Grammar have the student composing sentences that imitate a model sentence chosen from well-known children's literature. Here is an example designed to teach kids about S-V splits:

 

Model: Little Man, a very small six year old and a most finicky dresser, brushed his hair. (from Song of the Trees by Mildred D. Taylor)

 

My DD's imitation: Cerebus, a three-headed dog and a terrifying monster, guarded the entrance to the Underworld.

 

The Dr. Whimbey book has a lot of sentence combining exercises. The student has to rewrite two sentences into one more grammatically complex sentence. For example:

 

Our kitten leaped on the new catnip-filled toy again and again.

Our kitten then threw it up into the air again and again.

 

The student then writes: "Our kitten leaped on the new catnip-filled toy and threw it up into the air again and again."

Does that help explain the difference?

[EKS]

I would say Growing with Grammar (traditional) or MCT (non traditional but completely awesome).

[Matryoshka]

Does that help explain the difference?

 

Yes, that's very clear. :) Now that I see the examples, it's clear to see that difference between composing and combining. :tongue_smilie:

 

Are you saying you liked the composing better, or is it too early to say?

[Crimson Wife]

Are you saying you liked the composing better, or is it too early to say?

 

Let's just say that I'll be pretty surprised if I end up liking the Dr. Whimbey book better than the Kilgallon book. It's too early to say whether I'll like the Dr. Whimbey book well enough to continue on in the series or use it again with my younger kids. I'm definitely planning to do both with the Kilgallon series.

 

Jury's also still out on whether I'll end up liking the MCT grammar or the Dr. Whimbey grammar more. Both have aspects I really like and aspects I don't. Fortunately I've got plenty of time to make up my mind before my DS is ready for either ;)

[jclinton]

Voyages in Engish/Exercises in English - the 2006 or 2011 editions ONLY. The earlier editions were published by the Sisters of Charity etc and are very Catholic. The newer editions are still published by a Catholic company but I assure you are secular in nature - used in some public schools. It is a very thorough program. The front of the books is a writing/study skills program and the back half is all grammar. If you go to www.voyagesinenglish.com you can see samples etc.

JoAnne

[JennyW]

Thanks for the continued discussion on this topic! I have my work cut out for me. It sounds like there are so many wonderful programs.