Skipping problems with Saxon, hope my learned lesson helps someone.

[momee]

Thought this deserved it's own thread, just my humble experience with skipping problems and Saxon...

 

 

I have one child who experienced great frustration with Saxon. We switched multiple times to other programs and now looking back I think the problem really was my fault. Not Saxon's or my son's.

I believe the real problem was me not doing the lesson each day and going over the new material and the mental math drill. When my son started having problems in roughly 7/6 or so, I attributed it to the # of problems. I started skipping, he started having more problems and we jumped ship. It was much wasted time, much frustration and ended with a bad attitude toward math.

 

Fast forward to child number 2. We went through the same issue having many missed problems. I had us jump back about twenty lessons. I carefully went through every problem to ID trouble spots. I retaught them. We did the mental math EVERY DAY. She did all the problems for every lesson with my going over each mistake to ensure she could find her error. She's now almost finished with the book and consistently makes 100!!! on each lesson. She's doing very very well. No need to switch and the problem was not the curricula. She can finish a math lesson in roughly 45 mins or so. When my son was that age, he took forever~ because he really, honestly didn't know the material and got frustrated.

 

Today, child number 3. Same thing. I've slacked off on teaching each lesson and she's missing many many problems, complaining it's too much. Back we went since Christmas break to review what I wasn't teaching her or things she wasn't comprehending. We're redoing the lessons and her work even today is much improved.

 

Just my experience. I believe if you read through some of the Saxon posts on the high school board you'll see it highly recommended not to skip problems. It's not always the curricula. Granted, sometimes it is but I think we're quick as homeschool moms to blame the curricula.

HTH.

Edited January 15, 2010 by momee

[....]

:iagree: It's the same with Singapore. In November, I had to completely bring math to a screeching halt and do two months of drills with Kumon books.

 

You have to do it, though. Better slow and steady than they rush through and not have the calculations cemented in their heads.

[johnandtinagilbert]

You hit it on the head.

1. Follow the curricula as prescribed. There is a reason they approach from several perspectives (drill, mental, writing).

 

2. Not enough practice (skipping too many problems).

 

3. Switching regularly. Makes terrible holes.

 

Thanks for sharing your experience with others. Although every curric. is not for everyone, whatever we choose, we need to do it well and spend time teaching.

 

Continue on your path to success! :cheers2:

[lulubelle]

I am just in Saxon 2 right now and my husband and I have been bickering about what to do about it. We have hit the Saxon wall! Too much to cover! I have been very dedicated to it and following everything. My ds 7 is doing great with lesson and just cracking under all the "drill and kill". So, at this point and maybe before, I may have ditched it already! But, my husband is a physicist with emphasis in hard core math and totally understands the Saxon method and agrees with it to a "T". Seeing as I am not even close to his comprehension of math, I have no choice but to abide by his knowledge. So, we are taking the lesson into a 4 part, 2-day split. We well be doing Saxon 6 days a week at much smaller intervals, but be sure to cover everything. He has explicitely told me not to skip anything!

[Chris in VA]

Totally agree that Saxon is best done completely.

 

We skimped just a bit on the meeting, but not the skip counting, fact drill, patterns, etc. in Saxon K-3. Very, very important, that meeting. It sets up the lessons that come later. For example, all that telling the temperature sets up being able to use/understand the coordinate plane later! Often the introduction of facts, for instance, seems very brief, but you have to remember they've been working with them in the meeting, just asked a different way, so they can make a quick connection.

 

By the time you get to 7/6, the problem sets actually introduce new material--the problem set, not just the lesson. If you skip some problems, or do, say, all the evens but not the odds, you will miss vital info. Some kids can handle it, but it is much better to do them all.

[Carol in Cal.]

I am just in Saxon 2 right now and my husband and I have been bickering about what to do about it. We have hit the Saxon wall! Too much to cover! I have been very dedicated to it and following everything. My ds 7 is doing great with lesson and just cracking under all the "drill and kill". So, at this point and maybe before, I may have ditched it already! But, my husband is a physicist with emphasis in hard core math and totally understands the Saxon method and agrees with it to a "T". Seeing as I am not even close to his comprehension of math, I have no choice but to abide by his knowledge. So, we are taking the lesson into a 4 part, 2-day split. We well be doing Saxon 6 days a week at much smaller intervals, but be sure to cover everything. He has explicitely told me not to skip anything!

 

I called Saxon several subjects instead of just math. I called the worksheets 'facts practice'. I called the lesson 'math'. I called the daily meeting 'oral math'. And I did not always do them all in a row. For some reason, DD could do all this stuff as long as it was 'chunked' for her. And, actually, often she DID do it all in a row, but she felt like she was doing three separate subjects rather than one long, overwhelming, massive subject. It's a mind game, but it does work.

[MIch elle]

Good job!! :hurray:

 

I think many homeschooling parents do what you've done and learn the hard way that dc NEED more parental guidance. Many never get to the point you've gotten to and their dc suffer for it. Yup, many blame the curricula too quickly.

[EKS]

I absolutely agree with this post. As a former Saxon user and problem skipper, I firmly believe that if someone doesn't want to use Saxon as intended that it would be better to find a different program.

[Ellie]

This is interesting. I went to a private prep school for a few years that used Saxon. We were always assigned only half of the problems.

Your teachers were in error. It happens.

[Pam Wilhelm]

I just received a book...........

 

http://homeschoolwithsaxon.com/

 

If you are at all interested in having Saxon work for you, I cannot recommend this book enough!!!

[lauracolumbus]

Well you've converted me. Our rule was 88% and you only had to do half the problems (after practice) the next lesson.

 

It's going to be tougher to convince the kiddos.

[Karen in CO]

An alternate pov

Just to be contrary today, I rarely assign all the problems. Then again, I am terrible at following directions. :)

 

My dd is exceptional at math, and we have jumped through various programs looking for that perfect blend between my teaching style and her learning style - it, of course, doesn't exist.

 

Right now, we are in Saxon 5/4 in order to solidify division before it bogs us down in other areas. Saxon isn't the only math we are using, but it is working well. My dd also does LoF Fractions and Singapore CWP. She hated memorizing multiplication until she realized it was making her too slow in other parts of math.

 

I use Saxon as one of the tools in my math box. Once or twice a week, we do the assigned facts practice. We do the mental math everyday that we do Saxon. I go over the lesson with her or at least drink my coffee next to her when she is reading the lesson. She does all of the lesson practice, and then depending on how she has been doing I assign problems from the lesson practice. I always assign all of the word problems, and then about half the remaining problems (making sure to keep a variety that emphasizes the more recent lessons but hits as many areas as possible). If she has trouble with a problem, we always go back to the lesson where the concept was taught (but that's only happened once).

 

We typically do Saxon 3 days a week and follow the lesson with one or two CWPs from Singapore CWP 4. Once a week, she does a lesson or two from LoF.

 

My brother teaches high school algebra and really helped me to figure out my math sequence altough he and I disagree on flashcards. My ds is the offical math teacher in my homeschool - I am just his assistant to fill in when he is out of the country at school. When my dd has trouble with a concept, we email or skype him for a better explanation. It has been working fabuously.

 

What I have really learned from teaching math at various level over the years is that it is way more important for me to know and truly understand the MATH than for me to follow a particular math book. I always get my kids into math trouble when I am just reading teacher's notes and following lessons instead of understanding what they are supposed to be doing and teaching the math. I often find that they have interesting ways of doing the problems and demonstrate a better understanding of the math (or a weird misunderstanding) when we work the problems together and talk about particular solutions and methods instead of just checking answers and # of problems completed.

[kmacnchs]

Thank you for posting this - you never know what others out there need to hear. We did Abeka K Math last year and it was too fast (but I did not stay consistent with memory work every day). So, we decided to do Saxon 1 Math this year. It is a lot of review so we only do 1/2 of the problems and we are not doing memory work every day - guess what? My dd is starting to get behind on her fact cards---I just need to stick with it!!! I think b/c it is repetitive to me I think we don't need it - duh! Not repetitive to her! Anyway, thanks for posting - it helped me kick myself in the rear :)

[selh09]

I'm glad I found this thread!! :D We are starting Saxon 1 in Feb. My dd is 4.5 and we have BREEZED through Saxon K. I have had people tell me to take it slow with her because she is young. Any suggestions from those of you who have been there, done that with a "young" Kinder.

[LinRTX]

I agree. Do not skip problems. I have 4 children. Some are mathy;some are not. All learn very differently. All have done Saxon--every problem in every lesson I assign and all mental math. I will admit that starting in Saxon 54 I will skip some of the lessons, but not the mental math. I don't always time the fact sheet, but we do them. So far with 4 children our results have been:

 

ds 24: did Saxon Algebra 2 through Calculus--he's graduated Suma Cum Laude in EE after going on full scholarship

dd20: did Saxon 2 thru Calculus--sh'e a junior with 4.0 gpa and is majoring in information systems

dd16: started in Saxon 2 and is 20 lessons from completing Advanced Math. She does very well with math.

dd9: started in Saxon 2 and is half-way through Saxon 65 (This is my least mathy child and she is doing well)

 

Saxon works with all types, but you have to make sure they do the work--all of it.

 

Linda

[coffeegal]

I'm glad I found this thread!! :D We are starting Saxon 1 in Feb. My dd is 4.5 and we have BREEZED through Saxon K. I have had people tell me to take it slow with her because she is young. Any suggestions from those of you who have been there, done that with a "young" Kinder.

 

I only do ALL the problems with Saxon 54 and up. For the primary program, we do side A, unless dc needs more practice. When my 7yo was working through Saxon 1, we did 1/2 lesson a day. One day we would do the meeting and fact sheet, the second day we would complete the lesson and worksheet A. I wasn't in a hurry, and ds enjoyed his short math lessons. :D

 

Hope that helps!

[thowell]

This has me thinking if this could be our problem with Abeka. When we started so many people told me dont do every problem it will take you forever so we skip alot of the extra review. I also dont have the TE with it. Now we have hit a point going into long division and dd9 is having a really hard time. I have always heard Abeka math was very good but we are just about to jump ship. Maybe I should try using it as is instead and see if that could be the problem.

[2cents]

I've always been a sticker for doing EVERY problem. That is my personality though. I also feel like if I'm paying $$$ for curriculum, I'm going to get my money's worth by doing every single problem. ;)

I have always felt skipping problems was risky and I've heard of similar problems that have occurred. It is good that you posted your experience. I think it can help others. We do ABeka and I hear so many people recommending to skip because of the review. Don't do it. ABeka moves fast and that review cements the concepts. We've never had a problem with ABeka math and I attribute that to doing every problem and doing math everyday.

Edited January 22, 2010 by 2cents

[FLJen]

Thank you so much for posting this. We are in this very place of being frustrated with Saxon 6/5, and I have slacked off on all these same things. This is probably the most help and encouragement I've ever received from reading this forum. I now have the direction I need to work with my son on improving our math lessons. Your shared wisdom and encouragement is a blessing to me today -- thank you!

[selh09]

 

ds 24: did Saxon Algebra 2 through Calculus--he's graduated Suma Cum Laude in EE after going on full scholarship

dd20: did Saxon 2 thru Calculus--sh'e a junior with 4.0 gpa and is majoring in information systems

dd16: started in Saxon 2 and is 20 lessons from completing Advanced Math. She does very well with math.

dd9: started in Saxon 2 and is half-way through Saxon 65 (This is my least mathy child and she is doing well)

 

Saxon works with all types, but you have to make sure they do the work--all of it.

 

Linda

 

WOW Linda that's very impressive! That's really good! I already planned on it taking us a while to go through Saxon 1, but this is good to know. One other thing I was wondering about is the meeting book. Is that helpful or a waste of time? We didn't use it with Saxon K.

[selh09]

I only do ALL the problems with Saxon 54 and up. For the primary program, we do side A, unless dc needs more practice. When my 7yo was working through Saxon 1, we did 1/2 lesson a day. One day we would do the meeting and fact sheet, the second day we would complete the lesson and worksheet A. I wasn't in a hurry, and ds enjoyed his short math lessons. :D

 

Hope that helps!

 

Yes..this does help. Did you find the meeting book helpful? I wasn't going to ge it, but now I'm rethinking it. And doing half of a lesson one day and the second half the next is a good idea as well. I'll keep it in mind.

 

Julie

[selh09]

Thank you so much for posting this. We are in this very place of being frustrated with Saxon 6/5, and I have slacked off on all these same things. This is probably the most help and encouragement I've ever received from reading this forum. I now have the direction I need to work with my son on improving our math lessons. Your shared wisdom and encouragement is a blessing to me today -- thank you!

 

:iagree:

 

Thank you!!!!!!!!

[swimmermom3]

I hear what is being said. I am processing it. I want to put my head on the desk and whimper. 40+ math problems, 5 days a week, 3 hours a day, 180 days for the school year. At the rate Swimmer Dude moves, it will take two years to finish and we will severely behind in all other subjects. Dramatically doomed.:blink:

[HRAAB]

I hear what is being said. I am processing it. I want to put my head on the desk and whimper. 40+ math problems, 5 days a week, 3 hours a day, 180 days for the school year. At the rate Swimmer Dude moves, it will take two years to finish and we will severely behind in all other subjects. Dramatically doomed.:blink:

 

There's 40 problems per lesson? I thought there were 30 plus the practice set. That's just too many problems for me to imagine.

[Karen in CO]

This has me thinking if this could be our problem with Abeka. When we started so many people told me dont do every problem it will take you forever so we skip alot of the extra review. I also dont have the TE with it. Now we have hit a point going into long division and dd9 is having a really hard time. I have always heard Abeka math was very good but we are just about to jump ship. Maybe I should try using it as is instead and see if that could be the problem.

 

How strong is her multiplication? My dd9 made to long division earlier this year, but we found that it was harder than it should be so we went back to multiplication again and are sneaking back up to long division.

[DianeJM]

I called Saxon several subjects instead of just math. I called the worksheets 'facts practice'. I called the lesson 'math'. I called the daily meeting 'oral math'. And I did not always do them all in a row. For some reason, DD could do all this stuff as long as it was 'chunked' for her. And, actually, often she DID do it all in a row, but she felt like she was doing three separate subjects rather than one long, overwhelming, massive subject. It's a mind game, but it does work.

 

I do that, too. My 5th grade ds is in 65 this year, I think he could possibly (?) have done 76 but he was mathed out from last year and I wanted him to have some motivation and success so I went with 65. Anyway, before starting Saxon this year I had read about just what the OP was talking about, and I determined that I would do it all, because I want him to GET it. So I divided all the sub-sections up and made a little checklist out of it, sort of like separate math subjects, so that he can check off every portion that he's done and feel some sense of accomplishment instead of "moan/whine, when will this end?". I thought it helped quite a bit, although there was a honeymoon period at the beginning of the year. Anyway we took a super long break and are just returning, so hey, I feel like it'll be sort of like the beginning of the year again.

 

 

I am just in Saxon 2 right now and my husband and I have been bickering about what to do about it. We have hit the Saxon wall! Too much to cover! I have been very dedicated to it and following everything. My ds 7 is doing great with lesson and just cracking under all the "drill and kill". So, at this point and maybe before, I may have ditched it already! But, my husband is a physicist with emphasis in hard core math and totally understands the Saxon method and agrees with it to a "T". Seeing as I am not even close to his comprehension of math, I have no choice but to abide by his knowledge. So, we are taking the lesson into a 4 part, 2-day split. We well be doing Saxon 6 days a week at much smaller intervals, but be sure to cover everything. He has explicitely told me not to skip anything!

 

That is a great idea splitting it up like that, good for you. I did Saxon 2 and 3, and for that level I had them jumping up and down during the skip counting and running across the room for fact drills, etc., I had them moving around any way possible. For that age it's important for them to be active, and maybe that might be part of the "kill" part if your ds 7 is sitting too much, because the lesson does take a long time. Just a thought, that certainly was the case for my kids.

Edited January 22, 2010 by DianeJM
thought of something else to say :)

[Georgia On My Mind]

Ellie you hit on a strategy that would help many students. I hope others read your post. Sometimes it is just the approach that makes the difference. I applaud your creativity!

[swimmermom3]

There's 40 problems per lesson? I thought there were 30 plus the practice set. That's just too many problems for me to imagine.

 

Janet, I'm thinking 30 problems for Mixed Practice, at least 5 for the Lesson Practice, then there is the fact sheet and an additional 5 or so problems in the mental math and then the problem solving. Even if we could find time for Family Math and Problemoids, which we like, I don't think the desire would be there for any additional math activities.

 

Lisa-who has a headache because she believes there is some painful truth in this thread.:001_huh:

[Georgia On My Mind]

I have taught Saxon 5/4 through Algebra II in the classroom for many many years and there is no better program in my experience. I highly recommend that you do the program as it is written, especially in the lower grades. It may seem tedious but this program will work if done correctly even with students with learning differences. There is also a supplemental program to use with students with learning disabilities and it is wonderful as well. Practice does make perfect and requiring your students to name there errors and correct the problems they miss also helps from about 4th grade up. The errors are either computation, operational, careless errors, etc. You can tract these errors and help your student develop strategies to correct the most common ones first and then the next most common, etc. The only students I saw who weren't successful in Saxon were the ones who didn't correct their work or didn't do all the problems. Saxon's strategy is baby steps all the way up. My 9th grade dgd is in Saxon Alg II and she is daily amazed at the ease in learning Alg II each day. Some days we look at the lesson and it is so easy we may do two lessons and do only the new problems in the first and do all in the second problem set. We have done that on her level and she consistently makes 100's on daily work and weekly tests. She doesn't even care for math that much but is a good student.

[DianeJM]

This has me thinking if this could be our problem with Abeka. When we started so many people told me dont do every problem it will take you forever so we skip alot of the extra review. I also dont have the TE with it. Now we have hit a point going into long division and dd9 is having a really hard time. I have always heard Abeka math was very good but we are just about to jump ship. Maybe I should try using it as is instead and see if that could be the problem.

 

Just wanted to add a note to thowell here, I used ABeka up through 4th grade with my youngest, and I'm not sure you absolutely have to do every single problem. That may not be the reason you're not doing well. I think it's more about the teacher manual. The teacher book has the lesson in it. I know that in ABeka they put the new concept on the front side of the student book, but that is not near a complete lesson. The teacher lesson plan book has mental math, drills, and an explanation of the concept along with board practice problems that you can go through together; it's well thought out and comprehensive. My feeling is that the program is incomplete without the curriculum/lesson plans book. By the time the student gets to the workbook, you have already done a lot of work with the concept, drill and reviews. I think it's perfectly fine to assign only some of the problems in the ABeka student book, but I would assign from every section. From the first section where they are practicing the new concept, that's where I assigned a greater percentage of problems. When it comes to the review sections, depending on what they need, you can use your judgment. For us, the back side of the page always had fewer problems to do than the front. If there was an awful lot to do, sometimes I broke it up into two parts so he wouldn't be overwhelmed. Just a thought, hoping that helps but knowing I could be off here, just wanted to give you that perspective.

[LinRTX]

I actually did not mean that as a brag, but I am very proud of my kids!! I finally did not buy the meeting book for Saxon 3 the last time and did not miss it. You may have to write some things out on paper (like a numberline) but the actual meeting bokk is not really necessary. I did print out calendar pages to use however.

 

Linda

[Testimony]

Just my experience. I believe if you read through some of the Saxon posts on the high school board you'll see it highly recommended not to skip problems. It's not always the curricula. Granted, sometimes it is but I think we're quick as homeschool moms to blame the curricula.

HTH.

 

Just to tell you, I have a terrible problem. I don't skip. I honestly am too afraid of missing something. I truly believe that math builds on itself. I have always done every book in all my subjects from cover to cover. So, I have the opposite problem. I am too frightened to skip. Even if it is too easy, when it comes to math, it is never too easy to skip. I believe that math needs to be done. If my sons don't understand or get problems wrong, we always stop and go over it. We usually slow down. If it takes us longer or more school years to do it, we will do it. I would rather know that my children comprehend the lesson than jump because they are stuck or it is too easy.

 

Just my experience, I know I'm nuts.

 

Blessings in your homeschooling journey!

 

Sincerely,

Karen

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony

[thowell]

How strong is her multiplication? My dd9 made to long division earlier this year, but we found that it was harder than it should be so we went back to multiplication again and are sneaking back up to long division.

 

Yes this was part of the problem so we have put Abeka aside for a couple of weeks while she gets her multiplications down really well.

[thowell]

Just wanted to add a note to thowell here, I used ABeka up through 4th grade with my youngest, and I'm not sure you absolutely have to do every single problem. That may not be the reason you're not doing well. I think it's more about the teacher manual. The teacher book has the lesson in it. I know that in ABeka they put the new concept on the front side of the student book, but that is not near a complete lesson. The teacher lesson plan book has mental math, drills, and an explanation of the concept along with board practice problems that you can go through together; it's well thought out and comprehensive. My feeling is that the program is incomplete without the curriculum/lesson plans book. By the time the student gets to the workbook, you have already done a lot of work with the concept, drill and reviews. I think it's perfectly fine to assign only some of the problems in the ABeka student book, but I would assign from every section. From the first section where they are practicing the new concept, that's where I assigned a greater percentage of problems. When it comes to the review sections, depending on what they need, you can use your judgment. For us, the back side of the page always had fewer problems to do than the front. If there was an awful lot to do, sometimes I broke it up into two parts so he wouldn't be overwhelmed. Just a thought, hoping that helps but knowing I could be off here, just wanted to give you that perspective.

 

This is what I have been thinking. I purchased an older 2nd edition I think and the Tm. Well, actually it was just the Teacher key to the worktext. I didnt even realize there was another TM until now. I kept thinking that the wasnt alot of explanations for her and I was having to come up with this on my own. Anyone want to part with their TM, 2nd or 3rd edition????

[Chris in VA]

WOW Linda that's very impressive! That's really good! I already planned on it taking us a while to go through Saxon 1, but this is good to know. One other thing I was wondering about is the meeting book. Is that helpful or a waste of time? We didn't use it with Saxon K.

 

The meeting book itself can be replaced by something else (paper, a blank calendar you print yourself, a sentence strip for patterns, etc.) but...

DO THE MEETING.

 

There are a few people who disagree (they probably skip problems, too...:lol:), but seriously, the meeting, even tho it feels sooo repetitious, sets your child up for success. One little example--skip counting. You skip count 3's every stinkin' day for a loooong time. Then, you get a lesson on multiplying by 3. You get maybe one or two lessons, and that's it. The day after that lesson, you go to something else IN THE LESSON portion. IF you have done the meeting, multiplying by 3 is EASY. You don't need to spend a lot of LESSONS on it, because you have the concept already. Practice on that concept is now transferred from the lesson to both the fact practice sheets and the problem set/worksheet.

 

I've seen people who think Saxon moves too fast in the lessons, "be-boppin' and scattin' all over the place;" they say their child needs to sit on a concept for a long time. They see Saxon and say "not for me!" because they don't realize Saxon does, indeed, sit for a long time on its concepts--b/c they don't DO THE MEETING and DO ALL THE PROBLEMS, they feel their child doesn't have the opportunity to work to mastery.

 

Arrrgh.

 

Ok, vent over.

[LinRTX]

I agree. There is so much teaching in the "extras" that everyone skips. There is actually teaching in the problem sets, so you cannot skip a problem because something subtle is being introduced before the actual lesson on the subject.

 

Linda

[Tammyla]

Operator Error...(Btdt);), many curriculum failures could be avoided. I'll say it again...It's the work that works, do the lessons day after day.;)

 

So many things in life are this way, think, tweak, slow down, review and continue on.

 

Thought this deserved it's own thread, just my humble experience with skipping problems and Saxon...

 

 

I have one child who experienced great frustration with Saxon. We switched multiple times to other programs and now looking back I think the problem really was my fault. Not Saxon's or my son's.

I believe the real problem was me not doing the lesson each day and going over the new material and the mental math drill. When my son started having problems in roughly 7/6 or so, I attributed it to the # of problems. I started skipping, he started having more problems and we jumped ship. It was much wasted time, much frustration and ended with a bad attitude toward math.

 

Fast forward to child number 2. We went through the same issue having many missed problems. I had us jump back about twenty lessons. I carefully went through every problem to ID trouble spots. I retaught them. We did the mental math EVERY DAY. She did all the problems for every lesson with my going over each mistake to ensure she could find her error. She's now almost finished with the book and consistently makes 100!!! on each lesson. She's doing very very well. No need to switch and the problem was not the curricula. She can finish a math lesson in roughly 45 mins or so. When my son was that age, he took forever~ because he really, honestly didn't know the material and got frustrated.

 

Today, child number 3. Same thing. I've slacked off on teaching each lesson and she's missing many many problems, complaining it's too much. Back we went since Christmas break to review what I wasn't teaching her or things she wasn't comprehending. We're redoing the lessons and her work even today is much improved.

 

Just my experience. I believe if you read through some of the Saxon posts on the high school board you'll see it highly recommended not to skip problems. It's not always the curricula. Granted, sometimes it is but I think we're quick as homeschool moms to blame the curricula.

HTH.

[Guest janainaz]

I talked with a rep. from Saxon a couple years back because I had a few annoyances with the curriculum. I won't even go into it, but come to find out, there really IS a reason for everything and often we assume we know more than we do.

 

My son is now in 4th grade, he's working on Saxon 6/5, we do every problem, we do every supplemental lesson that I feel needs to be re-enforced. Much of the material in math does not seem to challenge my son, but there is a reason at this point in math that they continue to spiral around and repeat previously learned skills. The kids need the repetition at this point to prepare them for what is coming next. They need to have certain skills mastered. I have heard Saxon picks up the pace around 7th grade. I have yet to actually look at the material.

 

Your suggestion about doing the mental math and going over the lesson every day is a great reminder to me. I don't go over it unless it's something new. I've gotten a bit relaxed and always end up saying, "Just go ahead and get started, you know this stuff." We don't do the mental math (or haven't since last year) and I think I'll take your advice and start doing that today! There's always a reason - Saxon has been around for a long time...

[dani3boys]

This is just what I needed to hear. This is our third year with Saxon, and while most of the time things have gone smoothly, it is when we get a little lazy that things start to fall apart. This is the motivation I needed to keep going the course.

[Guest janainaz]

Just to tell you, I have a terrible problem. I don't skip. I honestly am too afraid of missing something. I truly believe that math builds on itself. I have always done every book in all my subjects from cover to cover. So, I have the opposite problem. I am too frightened to skip. Even if it is too easy, when it comes to math, it is never too easy to skip. I believe that math needs to be done. If my sons don't understand or get problems wrong, we always stop and go over it. We usually slow down. If it takes us longer or more school years to do it, we will do it. I would rather know that my children comprehend the lesson than jump because they are stuck or it is too easy.

 

Just my experience, I know I'm nuts.

 

Blessings in your homeschooling journey!

 

Sincerely,

Karen

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony

 

You're not nuts, I just think that is very wise!

[selh09]

I'm so enjoying this thread!! :) I'm one of the "ones" that doesn't skip. I did not have a good foundation in math in school and math has always been a struggle for me, so I've determined to give my dd's a good foundation in math. We are just finishing up Saxon K and we didn't skip. We did not use the meeting book, but we did calendar work. Somedays my dd would end up doing 3 lessons because it came easy for her, but we wouldn't skip because I think the same way as others, that we would miss something and then end up with gaps. So thanks to everyone for their advice and input.

[HRAAB]

Janet, I'm thinking 30 problems for Mixed Practice, at least 5 for the Lesson Practice, then there is the fact sheet and an additional 5 or so problems in the mental math and then the problem solving. Even if we could find time for Family Math and Problemoids, which we like, I don't think the desire would be there for any additional math activities.

 

Lisa-who has a headache because she believes there is some painful truth in this thread.:001_huh:

 

Oh, I see. And I understand your headache - as I look at all those Saxon books on my shelf.

[Spy Car]

OK. I'll be another contrarian.

 

If you don't deeply teach the "whys" of mathematics you can have a student solve equations until they are blue-in-the-face, and at best you will get a student who can competently apply the standard algorithms. At worst they hate math with a passion and feel like math dummies.

 

Far better to spend the years of "math time" building a foundation for understanding mathematical reasoning, the laws of mathematics, and understanding "why" a math algorithm works , because if a student understands that they don't need to repeat the same thing a thousand times.

 

And if they don't understand these things, they will never "get it" whether they do equations once, or a thousand times. They may lean how to plug-in the numbers to get the right answer when provided the algorithm, but that's a pretty low goal to strive for IMO.

 

Bill (who is sure this will be a popular post :lol:)

[momee]

Hey Bill,

I am shocked this post has had such response. I was sure everyone would reply, well yeah! Duh!

 

Anyway, I totally agree with you on explaining the whys, but that doesn't negate the need to do all the practice problems.

Just my 2cs.

 

(Not that I think you were saying to explain the why's to the neglect of doing the problems.)

[Ginevra]

OK. I'll be another contrarian.

 

If you don't deeply teach the "whys" of mathematics you can have a student solve equations until they are blue-in-the-face, and at best you will get a student who can competently apply the standard algorithms. At worst they hate math with a passion and feel like math dummies.

 

Far better to spend the years of "math time" building a foundation for understanding mathematical reasoning, the laws of mathematics, and understanding "why" a math algorithm works , because if a student understands that they don't need to repeat the same thing a thousand times.

 

And if they don't understand these things, they will never "get it" whether they do equations once, or a thousand times. They may lean how to plug-in the numbers to get the right answer when provided the algorithm, but that's a pretty low goal to strive for IMO.

 

Bill (who is sure this will be a popular post :lol:)

 

Bill, I totally agree. I was a "math dummy", actually pretty math-phobic through all the upper 6 years of math and this was the reason. I did not understand the "whys" of math. I had no mathmatical reasoning. It was only in doing my first child's Math-U-See with them that I started to understand the logic and sense behind math, why you find area as you do and why you invert a fraction that is to be divided. Finally, it has been my recent aquaintance with LOF that really made me almost love math!

[swimmermom3]

OK. I'll be another contrarian.

 

If you don't deeply teach the "whys" of mathematics you can have a student solve equations until they are blue-in-the-face, and at best you will get a student who can competently apply the standard algorithms. At worst they hate math with a passion and feel like math dummies.

 

Far better to spend the years of "math time" building a foundation for understanding mathematical reasoning, the laws of mathematics, and understanding "why" a math algorithm works , because if a student understands that they don't need to repeat the same thing a thousand times.

 

And if they don't understand these things, they will never "get it" whether they do equations once, or a thousand times. They may lean how to plug-in the numbers to get the right answer when provided the algorithm, but that's a pretty low goal to strive for IMO.

 

Bill (who is sure this will be a popular post :lol:)

 

Darn it, Bill! You had to go and bring this up didn't you. Now my head really hurts and it's too early for wine since there are 3 more trips to the pool to be made.

 

Stephanie, (momee) I have numerous questions for you, Bill, and Quill. Another thread? PMs? Or can we keep going?

[Ginevra]

I don't mind continuing to flesh out the topic here in the open, although I didn't start the thread. I'm sure I have nothing profound to say on the subject, but I'm willing to explain my experience.

[Sara R]

I hear what is being said. I am processing it. I want to put my head on the desk and whimper. 40+ math problems, 5 days a week, 3 hours a day, 180 days for the school year. At the rate Swimmer Dude moves, it will take two years to finish and we will severely behind in all other subjects. Dramatically doomed.:blink:

 

If it is taking him too long, move back a level, until he can do the work quickly. Let him get his speed and confidence up with easier problems, and then when he gets back on the level you are now, he will do the problems quickly and with confidence.

 

This is my daughter's experience with Saxon at the charter school. In 5th grade (Saxon 65) she was behind. She wasn't understanding the concepts, she wasn't solid on her facts, and it took her FOR EV ER to get through a problem set. She has some dyslexic and ADD issues (but no official diagnosis). She was failing.

 

I took her out and started homeschooling math. We went way back, back to borrowing. We drilled math facts, one group at a time until she knew them solidly. I took her out of Saxon and put her in Rod and Staff so she could focus on one area at a time, but still have plenty of review.

 

This year she is back in Saxon 65 at the charter school, and it's a huge difference. She's one of the strongest students in the class. She consistently gets the problem set done during class time. It's amazing. She's getting A's on her tests.

 

She still makes lots of errors. For some reason the class doesn't go over the homework or make them correct errors, so I grade the homework set every night and reteach anything that she didn't learn right the first time. If I can see a tricky new concept coming up, I try to preteach it, so she understands even if she is spacey at the wrong time. We are also going through Kumon workbooks at home to teach speed and accuracy in the basic algorithms.

 

If Saxon lessons (including everything) is taking more than an hour or so, it's because they are placed too high. Move them back, make them do everything, and they will get the skills they need to do the higher level stuff more quickly. And they will gain more confidence and might even start to kind of like math, if they are anything like my daughter.

[Sara R]

You're talking about two separate things here, Bill. Yes, it's important to understand the why. Singapore is a great way to teach the why.

 

But you also have to practice the algorithms until they become automatic, so the brain has room to understand the why of the next concept. Our brains have limited working memory. We can only concentrate on a handful of new things at a time. But our long-term memory is limitless. The way things move from the working memory to the long-term memory is practice. Lots and lots of practice.

 

If the child is trying to do long division, they have to have overlearned the division facts. They have to be able to do subtraction and multiplication automatically. If they don't know those facts, long division is a disaster. They take so long trying to figure out the short division, multiplication and subtraction that they totally lose the bigger picture. The brain can't handle all that at once, unless the smaller chunks of that skill are already in the long-term memory.

 

Practicing a concept to automaticity doesn't mean that they don't also understand why it works. Saxon may or may not be the best way to teach the why, but that's totally a separate issue. I like Singapore too; I've used it with my kids up to Primary Math 5A. But understanding the why, alone, isn't enough. The student also needs to practice until he can consistently get the correct answer quickly. I didn't understand this until my kids got into long multiplication and long division. This just gets more and more true the further the students gets up in math. Jann in TX often says that 90% of the errors in algebra 1 are arithmetic mistakes, not algebra mistakes.

[Spy Car]

You're talking about two separate things here, Bill. Yes, it's important to understand the why. Singapore is a great way to teach the why.

 

But you also have to practice the algorithms until they become automatic, so the brain has room to understand the why of the next concept. Our brains have limited working memory. We can only concentrate on a handful of new things at a time. But our long-term memory is limitless. The way things move from the working memory to the long-term memory is practice. Lots and lots of practice.

 

If the child is trying to do long division, they have to have overlearned the division facts. They have to be able to do subtraction and multiplication automatically. If they don't know those facts, long division is a disaster. They take so long trying to figure out the short division, multiplication and subtraction that they totally lose the bigger picture. The brain can't handle all that at once, unless the smaller chunks of that skill are already in the long-term memory.

 

Practicing a concept to automaticity doesn't mean that they don't also understand why it works. Saxon may or may not be the best way to teach the why, but that's totally a separate issue. I like Singapore too; I've used it with my kids up to Primary Math 5A. But understanding the why, alone, isn't enough. The student also needs to practice until he can consistently get the correct answer quickly. I didn't understand this until my kids got into long multiplication and long division. This just gets more and more true the further the students gets up in math. Jann in TX often says that 90% of the errors in algebra 1 are arithmetic mistakes, not algebra mistakes.

 

I'm not suggesting a child shouldn't have facility with number manipulation. We work on that all the time. But in an inter-related Singapore number bond style way. So 7 can be 5 and 2 (as well as other re-grouping) and that:

 

7 - 5 = 2, 7 - 2 = 5, 2 + 5 = 7, [ ] + 5 = 7, 2 + [ ] = 7 (one could go on).

 

The point remains, that no matter how much practice a child gets doing equations, or how fast their low-level cognition of "math facts" comes to them, if they don't understand the concepts of why algorithms "work" and the logic of mathematical reasoning they will never get to this understanding via memorization or by doing endless exercises.

 

They may get good at computing and not making operational errors, which are not unworthy goals, but I'd suggest you can get to that same place (and far beyond it) if "math time" is spend developing an understanding of mathematical reasoning starting from the very beginning of math exposure.

 

It's a longer slog to work though all the re-grouping in terms of tens and fives than it is to have the child simply "memorize" them. It takes more work to make sure they understand the base-10/place-value system of math we use from the outset. But it pays dividends.

 

And no amount of practice will remediate a lack of understanding of mathematic reasoning.

 

Bill