"Punishing the Group"

[tex-mex]

*choking*

 

:lurk5: and :lol::lol::lol:

[Heather in Neverland]

Thank you all for your input. Just to clarify... it wasn't about running (several of you have the "you're supposed to run in gym! Man up!" opinion that I thought this needed clearing up). They run every day in gym during warm-ups...no big deal.

 

The issue is obviously that this is a lazy, terrible way to manage a classroom. My ds is not in the military and never will be so I don't see the need to prepare him for that kind of group-think mentality (he is more likely to be the one designing the new weapons for the army than actually using them).

 

And as for learning "teamwork"...my ds DID do "his part"...he WAS listening...he DID know the answer. It seems that if anyone should be part of that "blanket party" it should be the 15 kids that WERE slacking off and NOT the ones actually pulling their own weight.

 

All it did was teach my ds that doing the right thing got him nowhere so why not slack off? Either way the result is the same.

[OhM]

I didn't read all the responses, but I'll chime in that I've always hated this mindset - I think it's cowardly.

 

The worst example I've ever heard of happened in the neighboring school district between 5-10 yrs ago where a friend's dd went to school. A boy followed a 14yo home from the bus stop, broke into her basement bedroom window and raped her. The police were called immediately, followed the genius's footprints in the snow and arrested him. I don't know the details, but he was sent away (prison, juvie, whatever.)

 

That was horrific enough, but at least it was settled. The real problem became the boy's friends. A group of them (both male and female) blamed this girl for his leaving, so they started a harrassment campaign against this already victimized girl. It actually became physical when she was beaten by one of the lovely young ladies in the group. The parents complained to the administration. Their response? They held an all-school assembly on bullying. That's it. They didn't address or confront the individuals who were the problem. They took a half-day's worth of learning hours away from the entire school to tell them that they need to be nice to each other.:glare:

 

Oh - they did suggest to the girl's parents that they pull her out and send her to another district or a private school to "make this problem go away" (for whom, I wonder?):glare:

 

Cowardly.

Edited October 22, 2009 by OhM

[Ellie]

It has always been thus in PE. I can't get worked up over it. ::shrugs::

[Spy Car]

Thank you all for your input. Just to clarify... it wasn't about running (several of you have the "you're supposed to run in gym! Man up!" opinion that I thought this needed clearing up). They run every day in gym during warm-ups...no big deal.

 

What, you think we're morons? :D

 

We (I) get your objection. You don't think lap-running (as a punishment) was "just."

 

And I'm saying there are contexts where "group punishment" (if we want to call it that, given promoting "fitness" is a goal of gym-class, and lap-running contributes to this goal) is not appropriate, but gym-class (to my mind) is a time for boys to learn team-values.

 

And that means running laps if the team fails.

 

I think you are missing the point if you focus on the "it's not fair" way of looking at this.

 

And it's not like the boys were lined up for swats. THAT would have been cause for complaint. But they ran, as a unit. Because in the real-world when members mess up, units fail. This is a valuable life lesson.

 

The issue is obviously that this is a lazy, terrible way to manage a classroom. My ds is not in the military and never will be so I don't see the need to prepare him for that kind of group-think mentality (he is more likely to be the one designing the new weapons for the army than actually using them).

 

It is precisely because he won't likely ever be in the military that the coach did him a service (one you may be undermining). I hate to speak for "the male perspective," (but since we are few here, what's the choice?) but every guy knows that there are boys/men who know how to be part of a "team" and those who don't. It is a stark delineation. And, believe me, every man knows where he falls in this division.

 

All it did was teach my ds that doing the right thing got him nowhere so why not slack off? Either way the result is the same.

 

If that's the lesson he "learned" you ought to get on his butt and set him straight on the lesson he SHOULD have learned. And NEEDS to learn.

 

*Sigh*

 

Bill

[Jean in Newcastle]

Bill, my dh supports your view 100%. (I still don't totally accept it). But as soon as I mentioned the situation he went into an excited lecture on "building teamwork!"

[unsinkable]

What, you think we're morons? :D

 

We (I) get your objection. You don't think lap-running (as a punishment) was "just."

 

And I'm saying there are contexts where "group punishment" (if we want to call it that, given promoting "fitness" is a goal of gym-class, and lap-running contributes to this goal) is not appropriate, but gym-class (to my mind) is a time for boys to learn team-values.

 

And that means running laps if the team fails.

 

I think you are missing the point if you focus on the "it's not fair" way of looking at this.

 

And it's not like the boys were lined up for swats. THAT would have been cause for complaint. But they ran, as a unit. Because in the real-world when members mess up, units fail. This is a valuable life lesson.

 

 

 

It is precisely because he won't likely ever be in the military that the coach did him a service (one you may be undermining). I hate to speak for "the male perspective," (but since we are few here, what's the choice?) but every guy knows that there are boys/men who know how to be part of a "team" and those who don't. It is a stark delineation. And, believe me, every man knows where he falls in this division.

 

 

If that's the lesson he "learned" you ought to get on his butt and set him straight on the lesson he SHOULD have learned. And NEEDS to learn.

 

*Sigh*

 

Bill

 

This is a very thought-provoking statement for me! I am going to mull it over, probably for the rest of my life. I I never really thought of it in quite this way.

[Spy Car]

This is a very thought-provoking statement for me! I am going to mull it over, probably for the rest of my life. I I never really thought of it in quite this way.

 

While we are at it, the virtues of "team-building" are not limited to the male gender.

 

As more and more girls grow up playing team-sports "cooperative" values show highly positive effects (just as with boys).

 

Do you ever hear women complain that they don't want to serve on a committee (or work) with women? I do. It is because women aren't smart or capable? Clearly not!

 

But the team building that has always been seen as a high male virtue just hasn't been given the same value with girls, and that is a shame!

 

In high-school, for two years, I coached a girls flag-football team for the annual Seniors vs Juniors "powder-puff" game. It was a HUGE deal at our high school.

 

I was the head-coach, and I turned the experience into an exercise in team-building. In no time we went from "herding cats" to forming a tight-knit fired-up well-skilled and highly motivated team. I was blown away! So proud of these girls, and my impression of "females" and what they were capable of was never the same.

 

We had a 30th High School re-union recently (yes I'm old) and I can't tell you how many women came up to me to thank me for what they gained from learning how to be a good team-mate.

 

One doesn't give up ones individuality by being able to function as part of a group. Being able to cooperate means a lot more gets done, and in better spirits, than if "team-skills" are non-existent.

 

Bill

Edited October 22, 2009 by Spy Car

[swellmomma]

I think in some situations it works, but not in what we have seen. For example grade 9 science class, we used to mark the paper of the person in front of us and then the teacher would call our name and we would announce our mark for him to record. On one particular assignment I got 100%, however because people were talking while he was trying to record marks he decided to give everyone a 0 to punish the group. I was livid.

 

My son quite cadets because of this mentality. If 1 kid in a troop did something stupid the whole group got punished. One night in the classroom ds was being a clown. His whole div had clean up duty as punishment for it. They took it out on ds in the locker room after the meeting(something encouraged by the leaders). Ds quit cadets that night, and has developed a fear of being in a locker room without me as a result.

 

So I think it can create a positive peer environment(everyone telling so and so to knock it off) but when it affects an over all grade/performace in a class, OR when the teacher/leaders are encouraging kids to "get the kid in line behind closed doors" it instead causes more problems than the initial incident of not listening did.

[unsinkable]

While we are at it, the virtues of "team-building" are not limited to the male gender.

 

As more and more girls grow up playing team-sports "cooperative" values show highly positive effects (just as with boys).

 

Do you ever hear women complain that they don't want to serve on a committee (or work) with women? I do. It is because women aren't smart or capable? Clearly not!

 

But the team building that has always been seen as a high male virtue just hasn't been given the same value with girls, and that is a shame!

 

In high-school, for two years, I coached a girls flag-football team for the annual Seniors vs Juniors "powder-puff" game. It was a HUGE deal at our high school.

 

I was the head-coach, and I turned the experience into an exercise in team-building. In no time we went from "herding cats" to forming a tight-knit fired-up well-skilled and highly motivated team. I was blown away! So proud of these girls, and my impression of "females" and what they were capable of was never the same.

 

We had a 30th High School re-union recently (yes I'm old) and I can't tell you how many women came up to me to thank me for what they gained from learning how to be a good team-mate.

 

One doesn't give up ones individuality by being able to function as part of a group. Being able to cooperate means a lot more gets done, and in better spirits, than if "team-skills" are non-existent.

 

Bill

 

Thanks. I went to a girls high school with highly competative sports program. I never underestimate what a group of determined females can accomplish. :lol:

[Spy Car]

I think in some situations it works, but not in what we have seen. For example grade 9 science class, we used to mark the paper of the person in front of us and then the teacher would call our name and we would announce our mark for him to record. On one particular assignment I got 100%, however because people were talking while he was trying to record marks he decided to give everyone a 0 to punish the group. I was livid.

 

 

You should have been livid. But these are apples and oranges types of situations.

 

...sharing the fate of the team/group (in gym class, or on the ball field, or the squad)? There is a time for that.

 

In science class? No.

 

There is such a thing as "context."

 

The purposes of gym-class is to promote fitness and to teach team-work. The coaches' actions (to my mind) promoted both.

 

Giving a zero on a science test because some students acted-up promotes no good values what-so-ever to my way of thinking.

 

See what I mean?

 

Bill

[Jean in Newcastle]

The purposes of gym-class is to promote fitness and to teach team-work.

 

Ok - Bill - you just got a convert to your way of thinking. If that is the purpose then I can see it applies in this context.

 

One of my problems was seeing that it would apply to a team sport like soccer for example but not gym class.

 

Now - as a teacher - I would hope that the gym teacher would explain this to the class on the first day.

 

And that in that context he would explain that if people are goofing off in gym class, that the consequence would be that the entire class would run laps.

 

And that you don't take out your frustration on those who mess things up making you all have to run extra laps.

 

Instead - you ignore them pointedly so that they will have no one to talk to or distract. (Not shunning - I'm just saying that if the chatty ones don't have anyone listening to them, then they will shut up.)

[Heather in Neverland]

One doesn't give up ones individuality by being able to function as part of a group. Being able to cooperate means a lot more gets done, and in better spirits, than if "team-skills" are non-existent.

 

Bill

 

Bill, I appreciate you trying to educate me on the ways of men but let me remind you that sports is not the only way to build teamwork. There are lots of team-situations that build team work without destroying someone's faith in justice. And honestly, your argument doesn't hold water. You say that it was appropriate to use running as a punishment (even for those who did nothing to deserve a punishment) BECAUSE it was gym class. Thus, had the teacher assigned 100 sentences instead of running, THAT would have been wrong. But then you say that the example where if kids goof off in science class and therefore the teacher doesn't let them do science labs, the teacher is wrong. Why? Science class is about learning science, doing labs and what-not so should the teacher have made them ...what?....do MORE science labs?

 

You keep focusing on the "running is healthy and good for you" aspect of the topic and I am saying it is not about the running. Let me tell you, this cowardly thing the teacher used did NOTHING to promote team spirit. The slackers did not learn a lesson...they thought it was funny. The non-slackers did not learn a lesson either...they thought the techer was unfair and to be honest, a jerk, and it caused ANIMOSITY in the class NOT a "team spirit".

 

I coached competitive GIRLS' sports for 10 years and there are MUCH better ways to promote team spirit than this. My team were national champions and we did it by INSPIRING them, by giving them a common goal and HELPING them work towards it. I worked them hard...very hard...but they did it for me and for each other because we had a team based on trust and common goals that they believed in...not something that was forced on them.

 

There is no team building going on in that gym class. All the teacher accomplished was that the kids hate him and each other.

[Murphy101]

:iagree::iagree:

with heather

there was no positive lesson learned at all

[OrganicAnn]

If you were to walk into the teachers lounge (or the equivalent) and said that some of the teachers were doing something that they had been asked not to do or not doing something they were asked to do. Then you said because of that you were going to punish all the teachers. Then ask them how they felt. Would they says it made them feel more like a team?

[SonshineLearner]

But these are 5 year olds. Not guys on a football team. Crazy! But, I don't work well with school situations...

Carrie:-)

[Heather in Neverland]

If you were to walk into the teachers lounge (or the equivalent) and said that some of the teachers were doing something that they had been asked not to do or not doing something they were asked to do. Then you said because of that you were going to punish all the teachers. Then ask them how they felt. Would they says it made them feel more like a team?

 

BTDT...no it did not make us feel like a team. We wanted the slacker rooted out and dealt with. We were insulted that the administration did not have the GUTS to deal with the slacker one on one and chose instead to punish the group. I've been in this situation a number of times and every single time the group's reaction was that the principal was a coward.

[Spy Car]

But these are 5 year olds. Not guys on a football team. Crazy! But, I don't work well with school situations...

Carrie:-)

 

5 year olds? :confused:

 

Was it 5 year olds Heather?

 

Bill

[jewellsmommy]

I can see the application of this approach. However, it drives me crazy to watch adults encourage this peer discipline or positive peer pressure while at the very same time teaching children not to give into peer pressure. Not only that, but how many times do you tell your children things like "you are not that child's boss/authority." "It is not your job to monitor/police/boss around that child". And "you are not the teacher/parent."

 

I remember as a child being confused by all this. My dd is a bossy, outspoken child. In that situation she would have run alongside the guilty parties verbally putting them in their place and she probably would have continued the rest of the day. I don't think they pay teachers enough to put up with the likes of my darling dd, that's why we homeschool:D. just kidding. All though I love to watch her follow around the cat and fuss at him for his bad behavior. I can't imagine what she would do to a sibling.

[Spy Car]

Bill, I appreciate you trying to educate me on the ways of men but let me remind you that sports is not the only way to build teamwork.

 

I never said sport are the only way to build team-work, they are, however, a very important means of achieving that end. And the only means many children get to build that skill.

 

What other ways is your son learning team-building skills? He's not 5, is he?

 

There are lots of team-situations that build team work without destroying someone's faith in justice.

 

Running laps is destroying his faith in justice? In the real-world the failure of on person in a unit or organization can cause the whole enterprise to fail.

 

And honestly, your argument doesn't hold water. You say that it was appropriate to use running as a punishment (even for those who did nothing to deserve a punishment) BECAUSE it was gym class. Thus, had the teacher assigned 100 sentences instead of running, THAT would have been wrong.

 

Yes Heather because running promotes fitness. It was gym-class were kids run (hopefully).

 

But then you say that the example where if kids goof off in science class and therefore the teacher doesn't let them do science labs, the teacher is wrong. Why? Science class is about learning science, doing labs and what-not so should the teacher have made them ...what?....do MORE science labs?

 

I believe the example was all the students got "zeros".

 

And I explained my belief that different norms prevail in gym-class than in science class. The husbands who've chimed in thus far (through their wives) seem to see it the same way I do.

 

You keep focusing on the "running is healthy and good for you" aspect of the topic and I am saying it is not about the running. Let me tell you, this cowardly thing the teacher used did NOTHING to promote team spirit. The slackers did not learn a lesson...they thought it was funny. The non-slackers did not learn a lesson either...they thought the techer was unfair and to be honest, a jerk, and it caused ANIMOSITY in the class NOT a "team spirit".

 

I don't know I wasn't there. Did I ever run laps because someone else on a team or in a gym-class screwed up? You bet! And it didn't destroy my sense of justice, or make me hate the coach.

 

I coached competitive GIRLS' sports for 10 years and there are MUCH better ways to promote team spirit than this. My team were national champions and we did it by INSPIRING them, by giving them a common goal and HELPING them work towards it. I worked them hard...very hard...but they did it for me and for each other because we had a team based on trust and common goals that they believed in...not something that was forced on them.

 

If sending kids to run laps is the best he's got to build team-work, maybe he's not a great coach. I don't know. But I've have lots of inspiring coaches who made us run lots of laps when they weren't happy with the groups behavior. It isn't a novel form of discipline.

 

There is no team building going on in that gym class. All the teacher accomplished was that the kids hate him and each other.

 

Sounds really weird to my ears that boys would "hate" a gym teacher because they are told to run laps in gym-class. It's like "hating" a math teacher who asks you to solve equations.

 

I suspect we may not have a "meeting of the minds" :D

 

Bill

[Heather in Neverland]

5 year olds? :confused:

 

Was it 5 year olds Heather?

 

Bill

 

No, it was my older son...the 11 year old.

[Heather in Neverland]

 

Sounds really weird to my ears that boys would "hate" a gym teacher because they are told to run laps in gym-class. It's like "hating" a math teacher who asks you to solve equations.

 

Bill

 

Come on Bill, I know you are smarter than that. As I've said SEVERAL times, it was NOT about "running"...my ds actually likes running...it was about being punished for something he didn't do. Any of us would be upset by that. How would you feel if you got a speeding ticket when you weren't speeding? How would you feel if a fellow employee stole from the company and you were blamed for it and fired even though you have never stolen from the company? Is that "taking one for the team" in your mind?

 

It's the principle. You know that.

 

BTW, my dh who is QUITE "manly" said he thought the gym teacher did a cowardly thing as well. He said the gym teacher is the one who should "man up" and be willing to call out the slackers and deal with them.

[Spy Car]

Come on Bill, I know you are smarter than that. As I've said SEVERAL times, it was NOT about "running"...my ds actually likes running...it was about being punished for something he didn't do.

 

He was told to run laps, an activity that is good for him physically, an activity he evidently enjoys under ordinary circumstances, and it is an activity that's a normal part of gym-class. Not to mention gym-teachers have sending boys on laps for bad class behavior as long as I've been around. I'm sorry, I just don't see this as a big problem, but I respect that you feel other-wise.

 

Any of us would be upset by that.

 

Not me :D

 

How would you feel if you got a speeding ticket when you weren't speeding?

 

I wouldn't like it. But your son wasn't fined, he was told to run laps, which is a normal gym-class activity.

 

How would you feel if a fellow employee stole from the company and you were blamed for it and fired even though you have never stolen from the company? Is that "taking one for the team" in your mind?

 

I would not expect to be "blamed." But if an employee was stealing from a company I worked for and it caused the enterprise to fail and I lost my job along with others at the firm, I couldn't cry "injustice"!

 

I'd also understand I had a duty to my employer to try to stop activities that might cause the firm harm. And if I failed to make efforts toward that end that many might suffer including myself.

 

That's the point. One person can bring a group down and it's important IMO for young people to understand this lesson.

 

BTW, my dh who is QUITE "manly" said he thought the gym teacher did a cowardly thing as well. He said the gym teacher is the one who should "man up" and be willing to call out the slackers and deal with them.

 

You guys are "on the ground", I'm not. You are the boys parents, I'm not. You have to do what you think is best for your child.

 

But you asked for the opinion of "the hive" which technically includes me. I'm sorry my opinion isn't what you were hoping to hear.

 

Bill

Edited October 23, 2009 by Spy Car

[tex-mex]

 

You guys are "on the ground", I'm not. You are the boys parents, I'm not. You have to do what you think is best for your child.

 

But you asked for the opinion of "the hive" which technically includes me. I'm sorry my opinion isn't what you were hoping to hear.

 

Bill

 

Heather -- I do agree with Bill on this. It does sound like hubby and you are too close to the situation emotionally to be objective. (Which makes sense.) And you did bring this up to the hive -- but seem to not be open to different opinions? Sorry if we disagree?

[Heather in Neverland]

Heather -- I do agree with Bill on this. It does sound like hubby and you are too close to the situation emotionally to be objective. (Which makes sense.) And you did bring this up to the hive -- but seem to not be open to different opinions? Sorry if we disagree?

 

I do not have a problem with opposite opinions. I have a problem with Bill's strange need to keep saying that it is about "running" when ANYONE reading my posts so far in this thread would see that it is NOT about running. The punishment could have been ANYTHING from sit-ups to writing sentences and I would still be upset because he was punished for something he DID NOT DO.

 

That would be like ONE of my kids doing something wrong and me punishing BOTH of them.

 

It makes no sense to keep pointing at the fact that running is a "beneficial physical activity" when the running is not the point. sheesh.

 

Maybe my question should be different. Maybe the question should be, what would be an intelligent, well-thought-out, EFFECTIVE form of discipline in a situation where 5 kids did what they were suppose to be doing but 15 kids did not REGARDLESS of which class it was in?

[Home'scool]

Maybe the question should be, what would be an intelligent, well-thought-out, EFFECTIVE form of discipline in a situation where 5 kids did what they were suppose to be doing but 15 kids did not REGARDLESS of which class it was in?

 

Punishing the group because of the act of one individual can be one of many effective tools in building teamwork and character. I am sure that this is not the ONLY tool the coach uses, but I really don't see all the fuss.

 

When one member of a group fails and the whole group is punished it teaches a few things.

-It teaches the offender that life isn't always just about him, but sometimes it is about a larger group.

- When the offender acts lame it can affect those around him. His actions have broader consequences. That point can be driven home better if he actually SEES the effects of his actions.

 

To the ones who have to participate in the punishment, it also instills a sense of group consequences.

-They will be mad that they have to run laps.

-They will not want to be the one to cause everyone else to run laps in the future, so they might think twice about not doing what they are supposed to.

-They also will now have a part in managing the group because they won't want to run laps again.

-It makes not just the coach responsible for the group, but the WHOLE GROUP.

-It actually empowers them because they now feel the right to have a stake in what happens to the group. If someone starts fooling around they have the right to say "knock it off!"

 

I think sometimes as homeschoolers, or prior homeschoolers, we get into a mode of "what is right for my child and my child alone" and howl about anything that even smacks of something the child thinks is "unfair". Being in a group means acting as a group. Homeschooling can mask that because so much of what we do is what works for us or for our child. Don't like it? Don't have to do it. Doesn't work for us? Doesn't get done. Think it is unfair? Well, then is MUST be unfair because we work off of the child's feelings/preferences/quirks/style only.

 

I think we do our children a disservice when we foster this thinking.

[Spy Car]

Punishing the group because of the act of one individual can be one of many effective tools in building teamwork and character. I am sure that this is not the ONLY tool the coach uses' date=' but I really don't see all the fuss.

 

When one member of a group fails and the whole group is punished it teaches a few things.

-It teaches the offender that life isn't always just about him, but sometimes it is about a larger group.

- When the offender acts lame it can affect those around him. His actions have broader consequences. That point can be driven home better if he actually SEES the effects of his actions.

 

To the ones who have to participate in the punishment, it also instills a sense of group consequences.

-They will be mad that they have to run laps.

-They will not want to be the one to cause everyone else to run laps in the future, so they might think twice about not doing what they are supposed to.

-They also will now have a part in managing the group because they won't want to run laps again.

-It makes not just the coach responsible for the group, but the WHOLE GROUP.

-It actually empowers them because they now feel the right to have a stake in what happens to the group. If someone starts fooling around they have the right to say "knock it off!"

 

I think sometimes as homeschoolers, or prior homeschoolers, we get into a mode of "what is right for my child and my child alone" and howl about anything that even smacks of something the child thinks is "unfair". Being in a group means acting as a group. Homeschooling can mask that because so much of what we do is what works for us or for our child. Don't like it? Don't have to do it. Doesn't work for us? Doesn't get done. Think it is unfair? Well, then is MUST be unfair because we work off of the child's feelings/preferences/quirks/style only.

 

I think we do our children a disservice when we foster this thinking.[/quote']

 

Wow, was that ever well put!

 

You made the points I was trying to make better than I did. Can I leave this thread to you? :D

 

Bill

[Christy B]

Punishing the group because of the act of one individual can be one of many effective tools in building teamwork and character. I am sure that this is not the ONLY tool the coach uses' date=' but I really don't see all the fuss.

 

When one member of a group fails and the whole group is punished it teaches a few things.

-It teaches the offender that life isn't always just about him, but sometimes it is about a larger group.

- When the offender acts lame it can affect those around him. His actions have broader consequences. That point can be driven home better if he actually SEES the effects of his actions.

 

To the ones who have to participate in the punishment, it also instills a sense of group consequences.

-They will be mad that they have to run laps.

-They will not want to be the one to cause everyone else to run laps in the future, so they might think twice about not doing what they are supposed to.

-They also will now have a part in managing the group because they won't want to run laps again.

-It makes not just the coach responsible for the group, but the WHOLE GROUP.

-It actually empowers them because they now feel the right to have a stake in what happens to the group. If someone starts fooling around they have the right to say "knock it off!"

 

I think sometimes as homeschoolers, or prior homeschoolers, we get into a mode of "what is right for my child and my child alone" and howl about anything that even smacks of something the child thinks is "unfair". Being in a group means acting as a group. Homeschooling can mask that because so much of what we do is what works for us or for our child. Don't like it? Don't have to do it. Doesn't work for us? Doesn't get done. Think it is unfair? Well, then is MUST be unfair because we work off of the child's feelings/preferences/quirks/style only.

 

I think we do our children a disservice when we foster this thinking.[/quote']

 

:iagree:

 

I am as non-conformist as they come, it's one of the reasons I homeschool. And because I homeschool, I make special efforts to seek out opportunities in which my girls can learn to function in group dynamics. Because being in a group means acting as a group. Running laps was a perfectly legitimate, reasonable, and appropriate consequence. It's not "unfair" or "injust". It's a group class; there was group misbehavior; there was a group consequence. There were a handful of kids doing the right thing? Okay, good for them. The lesson for them should be, do the right thing because it's the right thing, not to avoid punishment or to gloat over other kids being punished.

 

This isn't about running, it's about being willing to let a child experience and learn from being part of a group. That's what school is all about. Now, if you don't like certain aspects of group education you can homeschool. But somewhere along the line, we all better be teaching our kids how to function in a group, because their futures depend on it.

 

You can't have it both ways, Heather. You put your son in school; now, it's up to you to either stand behind the school and the teachers or you can make the decision to go back to homeschooling. But my advice to you, as a mom with a child older than yours, as a mom who sent a child to school for a year -- so I've been where you are, I understand the frustration -- you need to commit to one or the other. If you continue to undermine and second-guess his teachers and coaches, you are setting him up for problems.

 

I'm sorry you don't like what many of us are saying. But when you come here asking for opinions, you need to step back and listen, and be open to the possibility that you're going to hear what you *need* to hear, even if it isn't what you *want* to hear.

 

I have an 11 year old -- it is such a difficult age, they are betwixt and between being "little" and growing up so fast. I wish you all the best in finding that balance.

[Jen500]

Punishing the group because of the act of one individual can be one of many effective tools in building teamwork and character. I am sure that this is not the ONLY tool the coach uses' date=' but I really don't see all the fuss.

 

When one member of a group fails and the whole group is punished it teaches a few things.

-It teaches the offender that life isn't always just about him, but sometimes it is about a larger group.

- When the offender acts lame it can affect those around him. His actions have broader consequences. That point can be driven home better if he actually SEES the effects of his actions.

 

To the ones who have to participate in the punishment, it also instills a sense of group consequences.

-They will be mad that they have to run laps.

-They will not want to be the one to cause everyone else to run laps in the future, so they might think twice about not doing what they are supposed to.

-They also will now have a part in managing the group because they won't want to run laps again.

-It makes not just the coach responsible for the group, but the WHOLE GROUP.

-It actually empowers them because they now feel the right to have a stake in what happens to the group. If someone starts fooling around they have the right to say "knock it off!"

 

I think sometimes as homeschoolers, or prior homeschoolers, we get into a mode of "what is right for my child and my child alone" and howl about anything that even smacks of something the child thinks is "unfair". Being in a group means acting as a group. Homeschooling can mask that because so much of what we do is what works for us or for our child. Don't like it? Don't have to do it. Doesn't work for us? Doesn't get done. Think it is unfair? Well, then is MUST be unfair because we work off of the child's feelings/preferences/quirks/style only.

 

I think we do our children a disservice when we foster this thinking.[/quote']

 

This method did not work at ALL when my dc were in 2nd grade at public school. The kids who were misbehaving either had behavior problems and/or DID NOT CARE about the punishments or what the other kids or teachers thought. They just continued misbehaving and the whole class continued to be punished, or restricted with even more rules. No one was held accountable for their own behavior.

I guess this is how kids are 'socialized' at school.

[Jumping In Puddles]

This happened to my ds on wednesday... a few in his class were throwing leaves at each other during gym, so yesterday all kids had to sit out recess and do work.

 

I was happy, my ds needed to work. He had a big break b/c we had to watch dd's ballet class in the am.

 

(ds goes to school part time in the afternoon for "specials", not academics)

[Heather in Neverland]

:iagree:

 

 

You can't have it both ways, Heather. You put your son in school; now, it's up to you to either stand behind the school and the teachers or you can make the decision to go back to homeschooling. But my advice to you, as a mom with a child older than yours, as a mom who sent a child to school for a year -- so I've been where you are, I understand the frustration -- you need to commit to one or the other. If you continue to undermine and second-guess his teachers and coaches, you are setting him up for problems.

 

.

 

You know what? You are absolutely right. And we are pulling him out.

 

We put him in because I work there and I thought it might be a good cultural experience but it's not. Living in Malaysia is a wonderful cultural experience and we love it...but warehouse education...even in another country...is not for us.

 

I will NOT have my son's personality crammed into a school-shaped mold by teachers who call it "learning teamwork" when it is actually learning the idea of lowest common denominator...he who does the least is rewarded the most and he who works hardest is evil and self-centered.

 

I'll take my unique, justice-loving child over a brainwashed kid (i.e. "team player") any day. Thank you for helping me make up my mind.

[katemary63]

I haven't read anywhere near all these posts. I have read a couple pages. I called my son over to read the original post. I said nothing of what I thought. He is age 22 and a former marine and participant on many, many sports teams. He read the post and said, "Yeah, so?" I told him that some of the moms were upset that the kids who didn't do anything wrong were "punished." He laughed, said that was silly, that's the way it goes, it happens all the time, what the coach did is normal on sports teams and the military and essentially, just as Bill has said, Man up and run the laps, then talk to your goof off classmates afterward and tell them to knock it off and pay attention. My son also said it is what he would have done if he were teaching or coaching. He also said it was silly to be upset about having to run in gym class, who cares what the reason is. Life isn't fair, no big deal, run the laps, it's good for you.

 

I am just reporting the reaction of a 22 year old man. I think I mostly agree with him. One of the things my DH and I made sure to teach our kids is that "life is not fair." Of course, if a major injustice was done, we would try to right it. But stuff like this happens in life ALL THE TIME! My DD24 right now is in a situation where a co-worker of hers WILL NOT do her work and everyone else on the team is "punished" every single day by having to "run the laps" this poor co-worker really deserves. The supervisor will not do anything about it. It isn't fair. My advice to my DD isn't to pitch a fit and complain, it is to work even harder and do her best. Run the fastest! Running laps because of someone else's bad behavior is a life lesson. I wouldn't make it any bigger deal then that if it were my kid.

Edited October 23, 2009 by katemary63

[Murphy101]

Oh geez.

Running laps in gym is fine by me. (altho I personally think running in circles to be a huge waste if my time and skipped pe every chance I could)

running laps in gym as a punishment is fine by me

running laps bc some other guy needs punished is just not smart or effective

this is not a team. It's a pe class.

IRL the good are not punished with the slackers. Yap all you want about teamwork but the truth is the team doesn't go file for unemployment together.

IRL the good workers quietly go about their business while fervently awaiting te slacker getting a pink slip.

Irl when the slacker is permitted to bring down the team the company goes bankrupt for lack of decent management.

 

Dh and hi dad (avid soccer player an coach) say what the coach should have done is have everyone run the usual laps. Then when that was done call out the efforting guys to hit the showers. And then told the slackers to turn around and the required laps again. Dh says mouthing off about it is cause for "suicide sprints" and he sure didn't do it twice.

 

That is justice, team building, and real life rational consequence IMHO.

[Jen500]

Oh geez.

Running laps in gym is fine by me. (altho I personally think running in circles to be a huge waste if my time and skipped pe every chance I could)

running laps in gym as a punishment is fine by me

running laps bc some other guy needs punished is just not smart or effective

this is not a team. It's a pe class.

IRL the good are not punished with the slackers. Yap all you want about teamwork but the truth is the team doesn't go file for unemployment together.

IRL the good workers quietly go about their business while fervently awaiting te slacker getting a pink slip.

Irl when the slacker is permitted to bring down the team the company goes bankrupt for lack of decent management.

 

Dh and hi dad (avid soccer player an coach) say what the coach should have done is have everyone run the usual laps. Then when that was done call out the efforting guys to hit the showers. And then told the slackers to turn around and the required laps again. Dh says mouthing off about it is cause for "suicide sprints" and he sure didn't do it twice.

 

That is justice, team building, and real life rational consequence IMHO.

 

:iagree:

 

And irl when a hard worker is working with a bunch of slackers, he/she is able to go find another job at a better company. Not really a choice that kids are allowed to make on their own at school.

[secular_mom]

This works in the military, but it doesn't work well in schools. If they want to get children to work as a team, then they should be practicing other team building skills, KWIM? Cooperative games instead of competitive games, and other things would go much further in building teamwork.

My son was very frustrated with his recent PS experience when he was punished (whole class was) because some of the classmates were misbehaving.

[secular_mom]

I don't disagree with running laps in gym class. I make *my own* children run laps around the park in front of our house when they are acting crazy. I was speaking to the general idea of institutionalized, group punishment in my post. I'm a contrarian at heart, hence the homeschooling.

 

eta: Bill, would your answer be different if it was detention for everyone or 50 lines of "I will listen in class?"

:iagree:

[Ravin]

Most of my experience with this sort of thing was in the military. The XO finds a can sitting in a p-way, next thing you know, the soda machines, soda sales in the ship's store, and the soda fountains on the messdeck are all secured for a week. Now, aside from that particular XO being a hypocritical bleepbleep whom no one liked, it was certainly unfair to all the people who didn't litter and didn't have a secret stash of cases of soda in their workspace. OTOH, there's no telling how many people walked by that can and ignored it, after the one person left it there, yk? In that context, policing each other was definitely expected, and punishment was doled out accordingly.

 

Group discipline makes sense when the group actually have to count on each other; on a Naval ship, you literally rely on each other as a matter of life and death.

 

I don't, however, think it's a particularly effective strategy for a classroom full of kids with no common purpose. Now, making kids on an actual team aware of group consequences is different. For example, in many places where pass-to-play is the rule, this can affect not just an individual student, but his or her teammates, especially if it's a small school without much in the way of back-up players. This hopefully creates peer pressure to study, rather than to cheat.

[Home'scool]

Wow, was that ever well put!

 

You made the points I was trying to make better than I did. Can I leave this thread to you?

 

Bill

 

Awww, thanks Bill! :001_smile:

[Home'scool]

I'll take my unique, justice-loving child over a brainwashed kid (i.e. "team player") any day. Thank you for helping me make up my mind.

 

Team player does not equal "brain washed". Any day. Sheesh.

 

I homeschool. But I make sure the world does not revolve around my CHILD'S (because, after all, they are still children and not fully cooked yet) view of himself and himself alone.

 

I love how you say his personality will be crammed. Once again, the homeschoolers howl that not one hair on a child's head will go towards any type of accommodation for anyone else. Groups are evil. Teams are bad. One child's opinion should hold sway over a whole school. The immediate fall-back position of "now my child is NOT MOTIVATED anymore!! His INCENTIVE is gone! Oh cruel, evil world!" Give me a break.

 

Isn't this the same school that is accommodating your child's unique-ness all over the place? Something about studying at different times and in different places?

Edited October 23, 2009 by Home'scool

[HRAAB]

IRL the good are not punished with the slackers. Yap all you want about teamwork but the truth is the team doesn't go file for unemployment together.

IRL the good workers quietly go about their business while fervently awaiting te slacker getting a pink slip.

Irl when the slacker is permitted to bring down the team the company goes bankrupt for lack of decent management.

 

 

Okay, something here caught my attention. Basically, I don't agree with group punishment in a classroom setting, although I can see it a little more in team sports, but as stated, this is a PE class. Anyway, my dh worked in a small dept. for a large corporation. The mgr. of their dept. was terrible: horrible communicator, didn't understand the work, couldn't work with the client (they had 1 client - big contract). Dh and co-workers went to upper management; they were told to do their job and not worry. Ha. Guess what. They are all collecting unemployment together, all of them including the incompetent manager, since last April. They lost their contract. The whole business didn't go bankrupt, the individual manager who lost their contract didn't just lose her job, the entire dept. lost their jobs. Because of one person. Those who worked their butts off couldn't make up for the bad management decisions. They all paid the price. Yes, I'm still ticked over it. And we're eating beans 3 to 4 times a week. But, that is life. But yes, sometimes IRL everyone pays the price.

 

Sorry, got on a personal vent.

[Jen500]

Okay, something here caught my attention. Basically, I don't agree with group punishment in a classroom setting, although I can see it a little more in team sports, but as stated, this is a PE class. Anyway, my dh worked in a small dept. for a large corporation. The mgr. of their dept. was terrible: horrible communicator, didn't understand the work, couldn't work with the client (they had 1 client - big contract). Dh and co-workers went to upper management; they were told to do their job and not worry. Ha. Guess what. They are all collecting unemployment together, all of them including the incompetent manager, since last April. They lost their contract. The whole business didn't go bankrupt, the individual manager who lost their contract didn't just lose her job, the entire dept. lost their jobs. Because of one person. Those who worked their butts off couldn't make up for the bad management decisions. They all paid the price. Yes, I'm still ticked over it. And we're eating beans 3 to 4 times a week. But, that is life. But yes, sometimes IRL everyone pays the price.

 

Sorry, got on a personal vent.

 

:grouphug: for you and your family.

 

But some employees would have moved on to another employer when they realized they were in an incompetent company.

[tex-mex]

:iagree:

 

I am as non-conformist as they come, it's one of the reasons I homeschool. And because I homeschool, I make special efforts to seek out opportunities in which my girls can learn to function in group dynamics. Because being in a group means acting as a group. Running laps was a perfectly legitimate, reasonable, and appropriate consequence. It's not "unfair" or "injust". It's a group class; there was group misbehavior; there was a group consequence. There were a handful of kids doing the right thing? Okay, good for them. The lesson for them should be, do the right thing because it's the right thing, not to avoid punishment or to gloat over other kids being punished.

 

This isn't about running, it's about being willing to let a child experience and learn from being part of a group. That's what school is all about. Now, if you don't like certain aspects of group education you can homeschool. But somewhere along the line, we all better be teaching our kids how to function in a group, because their futures depend on it.

 

You can't have it both ways, Heather. You put your son in school; now, it's up to you to either stand behind the school and the teachers or you can make the decision to go back to homeschooling. But my advice to you, as a mom with a child older than yours, as a mom who sent a child to school for a year -- so I've been where you are, I understand the frustration -- you need to commit to one or the other. If you continue to undermine and second-guess his teachers and coaches, you are setting him up for problems.

 

I'm sorry you don't like what many of us are saying. But when you come here asking for opinions, you need to step back and listen, and be open to the possibility that you're going to hear what you *need* to hear, even if it isn't what you *want* to hear.

 

I have an 11 year old -- it is such a difficult age, they are betwixt and between being "little" and growing up so fast. I wish you all the best in finding that balance.

 

:iagree: Thank you Christy for saying what I couldn't put into words. (I highlighted the phrase above in RED.) It does appear that Heather has started threads (since her move to Malaysia) asking for opinions of scenarios that her ds was involved in at the school she worked at. But it does seem that she is more wanting to gather support for the decision (or emotion) she is feeling rather than objectively trying to see or hear opinions from another POV. That part really concerns me.

 

I'm trying not to over-analyze this... but it does appear Heather is unhappy with how her son is being educated. There is conflict with her being the boss/principal at the school, and her loyalties are being divided. Which -- if I were an employee -- I would not feel comfortable working for her if a minor incident like this PE class blew up out of proportion and undermined my authority as a teacher. It sounds like she is pulling her son out of the school? Which is her choice. She knows what is best. However, I have issue with her coming here to the hive asking for advice and being argumentative to those who have a different POV. Bill had a valid point. No need to berate him over the coals. Not cool. :grouphug:

Edited October 23, 2009 by tex-mex

[Murphy101]

Well ....

I won't speak for heather.

 

But I'll tell you that I personally don't see a single valid argument for the other POV.

 

So far boils down to:

suck it up, man up, take one for the team/group

and it appears the only reasons for that sentiment is that you did it as a kid so they should too, the military/ competitive sports does it, and life isn't fair do why try to teach them fairness.

 

I have to say I don't see much merit in those arguments. :confused:

 

as for heather's specific situation.

I don't think she is happy with the schooling, but I also don't think she is sending them primarily for schooling either.

People come on this board all the time to gripe about school situations they have to deal with for whatever reasons and very rarely does anyone here say, oh you just have to take it, support the teachers foolishness and the group/team/school. What bull. How's that help anyone?

 

It's not a hill I'd die on.

But neither is it a hill I'd be willing to march to either.

 

Some of you would tell your kid to get over it.

I'd ask my kid what they think is a respectable way to handle it.

Maybe nothing.

Maybe a little civil disobediance.

Maybe a polite chat with teacher.

Maybe a change to a class he can learn something from.

And again I wouldn't do anything for the first time.

Every teacher should get a 1st time to mess up without being jump on unless it's a major mess up or dangerous.

[tex-mex]

Well ....

I won't speak for heather.

 

But I'll tell you that I personally don't see a single valid argument for the other POV.

 

So far boils down to:

suck it up, man up, take one for the team/group

and it appears the only reasons for that sentiment is that you did it as a kid so they should too, the military/ competitive sports does it, and life isn't fair do why try to teach them fairness.

 

I have to say I don't see much merit in those arguments. :confused:

 

My POV: Hubby's family are a bunch of jocks. His mom was an award winning CIF softball coach in CA during the 70's and 80's. She is one tough chick and the first to tell you to "suck it up". Life is unfair. Dunno if that is because she was a child of the depression or she was a team player. LOL But she was and still is adored by her former players as a beloved coach. (But tough as nails.) Hubby was raised in a home where sports thrived -- he played baseball, soccer, football, and more. In high school, he had many scholarship offers from colleges for football. He will be the first person to tell you that his team mentality from sports has better prepared him for life -- and dealing with companies and people. It builds leadership skills, decision making, communication, and more. Team mentality is not brainwashing, IMO. It builds leaders who understand how the game is played and authority hierarchy.

 

My personal POV: Growing up as a migrant child in a white farming town -- you learned real quick about injustice. Granted, I did not experience my mother's POV with segregation (Mexicans only) for schools, being racially grouped for bathrooms, restaurants, etc in the 1950's south in Texas. But I did get my lumps of "team" injustice and you learn quick how life is unfair. Deal with it by being bitter, isolate yourself and hate the other group, or grow from it by forgiving the other person (not easy) and use it as a tool for bettering your situation or place in life. For me, I learned to suck it up and kick down some doors to get into college despite teachers saying all I would end up is pregnant at 16 or in jail. Please note that I was very ASPERGER-Y as a child and lacked social skills big time. Despite this, I saw the world as black and white. It helped form my worldview on injustice. However, based on my past, I do think growing up with a thick skin (and being resilient) does help your overall outlook on life. Life is not fair.

 

as for heather's specific situation.

I don't think she is happy with the schooling, but I also don't think she is sending them primarily for schooling either.

 

Some of you would tell your kid to get over it.

I'd ask my kid what they think is a respectable way to handle it.

Maybe nothing.

Maybe a little civil disobediance.

Maybe a polite chat with teacher.

Maybe a change to a class he can learn something from.

And again I wouldn't do anything for the first time.

Every teacher should get a 1st time to mess up without being jump on unless it's a major mess up or dangerous.

 

Exactly. I am concerned over her knee-jerk reaction to past threads (and this one) where she'll claim to pull her kid out. Which is fine. But it does seem like there is more to the picture we are not seeing, kwim? I guess I am too overly concerned... :confused:

Edited October 23, 2009 by tex-mex

[Guest janainaz]

"Punishing the group" is unfair, but it's part of life. My dh is in sales and marketing. If sales are slow he gets threats from his bosses like, "If sales are low, heads are going to roll". It sucks. There are times he has zero control and he has to deal with that frustration - even when he's working really hard.

 

Your ds's gym teacher is good training for the real world. I'd tell my son I'm proud of him for listening and being gracious to the teacher because it's the right thing to do. It's not easy having X amount of students and trying to get them all to pay attention and even one student doing what they are supposed to shows mercy to the teacher. I have to hold back on my Mama Bear tendencies when it comes to my boys. My ds9 is in sports and has a tough coach. I don't often love the way he is with the team, but my dh said it's just normal and not a big deal. Of course, this coming from a guy who is not sports-oriented at all. That being the case, a little toughening up can't hurt.

 

Just like my dh, my kids need to just roll with life and press-on sometimes. I'm sure the gym coach recognizes and appreciates the kids that are doing what they are supposed to, but I think looking at the kids as a whole, as a team, is just how coaches think. It's not personal.

[Jumping In Puddles]

My son is 6 and as I said earlier, a very similar thing happened to him this week. (Gym class, 2 kids threw leaves at each other, the whole class lost recess the next day, including ds who was not throwing leaves.)

 

I honestly can't see why this is such a big deal. That is not how I would have punished them, but their teacher was in charge and that was the punishment. I don't think anyone's spirit was broken over this. If your son now feels that he has no incentive to do well, I think if it were me, I would be talking to him about why it is important to do your best (and it's not always to avoid punishment).

 

I think you should help him deal with it: tell him you don't like the punishment but the teacher thought it might make the class be more compliant and I would probably praise him for being a good sport about, even though he felt he was being punished unfairly.

 

My ds told me about the punishment, I gave him some extra work to do during the lost recess time (30 minutes) and I told him I'm glad he wasn't the one throwing leaves.

[Heather in Neverland]

:iagree: Thank you Christy for saying what I couldn't put into words. (I highlighted the phrase above in RED.) It does appear that Heather has started threads (since her move to Malaysia) asking for opinions of scenarios that her ds was involved in at the school she worked at. But it does seem that she is more wanting to gather support for the decision (or emotion) she is feeling rather than objectively trying to see or hear opinions from another POV. That part really concerns me. Why does the concern you? I'm a big girl. I can post the way I choose just as others do.

 

I'm trying not to over-analyze this... but it does appear Heather is unhappy with how her son is being educated. BINGO There is conflict with her being the boss/principal at the school, and her loyalties are being divided. Not really. I am a very, very good employee so I earn my paycheck. Which -- if I were an employee -- I would not feel comfortable working for her if a minor incident like this PE class blew up out of proportion and undermined my authority as a teacher. Well I suppose if that were the ONLY issue, but it's not...like you said, you've read my other posts. It sounds like she is pulling her son out of the school? Which is her choice. She knows what is best. Thank you for that affirmation. However, I have issue with her coming here to the hive asking for advice and being argumentative to those who have a different POV. Bill had a valid point. No need to berate him over the coals. Not cool. :grouphug:

Why? People do it all the time here. It's quite the norm. I suppose if it really bothers you that much you could just put me on ignore. And Bill is a big boy...he makes just as many, if not more, sassy comments as I do and he knows it and he can take it.

[Heather in Neverland]

Team player does not equal "brain washed". Any day. Sheesh.

 

I homeschool. But I make sure the world does not revolve around my CHILD'S (because' date=' after all, they are still children and not fully cooked yet) view of himself and himself alone.

 

I love how you say his personality will be crammed. Once again, the homeschoolers howl that not one hair on a child's head will go towards any type of accommodation for anyone else. Groups are evil. Teams are bad. One child's opinion should hold sway over a whole school. The immediate fall-back position of "now my child is NOT MOTIVATED anymore!! His INCENTIVE is gone! Oh cruel, evil world!" Give me a break. [b']Your statement is so far off base it is laughable. I can't even formulate a response to something so ludicrous.[/b]

 

Isn't this the same school that is accommodating your child's unique-ness all over the place? Something about studying at different times and in different places? So they said. I'm happy for you that your children fit into every little mold presented to them. Mine do not and I like them that way.

.

[Heather in Neverland]

My POV: Hubby's family are a bunch of jocks. His mom was an award winning CIF softball coach in CA during the 70's and 80's. She is one tough chick and the first to tell you to "suck it up". Life is unfair. Dunno if that is because she was a child of the depression or she was a team player. LOL But she was and still is adored by her former players as a beloved coach. (But tough as nails.) Hubby was raised in a home where sports thrived -- he played baseball, soccer, football, and more. In high school, he had many scholarship offers from colleges for football. He will be the first person to tell you that his team mentality from sports has better prepared him for life -- and dealing with companies and people. It builds leadership skills, decision making, communication, and more. Team mentality is not brainwashing, IMO. It builds leaders who understand how the game is played and authority hierarchy.

 

We're not jocks nor do we care to be. My ds loves sports but prefers a more solo approach like golf and karate. He prefers to stand on his own two feet, be responsible for his own actions and not the actions of others. I imagine he will also pick a career that suits his natural, God-given leanings.

 

My personal POV: Growing up as a migrant child in a white farming town -- you learned real quick about injustice. Granted, I did not experience my mother's POV with segregation (Mexicans only) for schools, being racially grouped for bathrooms, restaurants, etc in the 1950's south in Texas. But I did get my lumps of "team" injustice and you learn quick how life is unfair. Deal with it by being bitter, isolate yourself and hate the other group, or grow from it by forgiving the other person (not easy) and use it as a tool for bettering your situation or place in life. For me, I learned to suck it up and kick down some doors to get into college despite teachers saying all I would end up is pregnant at 16 or in jail. Please note that I was very ASPERGER-Y as a child and lacked social skills big time. Despite this, I saw the world as black and white. It helped form my worldview on injustice. However, based on my past, I do think growing up with a thick skin (and being resilient) does help your overall outlook on life. Life is not fair.

 

Yes I know life is not fair. My ds learns this lesson every day as he deals with his own learning disabilities. He learned it when a close friend of our family died of cancer at age 29 only 5 weeks after giving birth to her first child. He learns it when we study the lives of people who have been tortured and killed for their Christian beliefs. He learns that life is not fair in many, many ways. But I don't expect him to learn it from his own teacher.

 

 

Exactly. I am concerned over her knee-jerk reaction to past threads (and this one) where she'll claim to pull her kid out. I am not claiming to, I am doing it. And it is not a knee-jerk reaction. It is what is best for him. ANd that is my job as his parent. Putting him in school was a mistake. I may love my job and we love Malaysia but school is not for him.

.

[tex-mex]

I am not claiming to, I am doing it. And it is not a knee-jerk reaction. It is what is best for him. ANd that is my job as his parent. Putting him in school was a mistake. I may love my job and we love Malaysia but school is not for him.

 

Thank you for confirming what I was thinking. It really it coming across (at least to me) your level of discontent in your threads since arriving in Malaysia that you are not happy. And yes, that concerns me. I know you are a big girl and can scrap on your own... :D but the counselor in me is more concerned with if you are at peace or not. Praying for you, my friend. Not an easy choice. :grouphug: