I need reason, not ethics

[EthiopianFood]

*I've been given very good advice here. Please make sure you read my reply saying that I agree before you post. :) *

 

I need some advice here, and I'm hoping people can see my heart in this, because I'm not sure I'm going to come across as an awesome person here. Short version, I love my niece very much, and have been as involved in her life as possible since she was born. She loves my husband and me, and loves staying at our house. She is being raised by my MIL, and though she is loved, her emotional needs are not being met. She has no future in this home situation, which it made all the more clear when you look at the level of contentment and functionality among the adults raised in this home (and there are six!). I have always hoped she would be able to live with us some day. MIL says no, but also is unwilling/unable to address these issues herself. My only hope is that dn will choose to live with us when she is old enough for her feelings to matter on this issue (she did want to live with us when she was younger, but now, of course, has her own life that she would miss, although she still loves to stay over).

 

Here's the "reason, not ethics" part. Help me think through this logically. I want her to want to be with us. I want her to not want to be at home. If I point out things as they come up ("Grandma says you can't stay over another night, it's not up to me," "Grandma won't let you do that," stuff like that, NEVER "she doesn't love you" or anything), is it going to backfire? I never say anything that isn't true, never comment on motives, but do lightly imply that I would have let her do whatever it is (ironically, she has a lot more rules and structure at our house than at her's overall). Or do I say nothing? I know, ethically, I'm not supposed to say anything, but practically speaking, could it help or hurt? I'm not a bad person, I'm just desperate, and have no hope other than dn's future decisions.

Edited October 17, 2009 by RaeAnne

[Harriet Vane]

I have faced this issue, and I have dear friends who have faced this issue.

 

Speaking gently here, I think you really, really need to stop undermining your niece's current living situation. If she is not being abused or criminally neglected, then her living situation will not change. All you are doing is creating discontent. Your mil will know that she cannot trust you and will restrict access. At some point as your niece grows older, if your niece loves your mil (it sounds like she does), your niece may also choose to restrict her time with you because of how conflicted that makes her feel. You will become the focus of a lot of frustration, and your ability to help your niece will narrow.

 

Do not comment on her living situation or on how much better it would be with you. Ever.

 

DO continue spending time with her and loving her. Provide the haven and the love that she needs without tying it to discontent and conflict.

[OHGrandma]

I have faced this issue, and I have dear friends who have faced this issue.

 

Speaking gently here, I think you really, really need to stop undermining your niece's current living situation. If she is not being abused or criminally neglected, then her living situation will not change. All you are doing is creating discontent. Your mil will know that she cannot trust you and will restrict access. At some point as your niece grows older, if your niece loves your mil (it sounds like she does), your niece may also choose to restrict her time with you because of how conflicted that makes her feel. You will become the focus of a lot of frustration, and your ability to help your niece will narrow.

 

Do not comment on her living situation or on how much better it would be with you. Ever.

 

DO continue spending time with her and loving her. Provide the haven and the love that she needs without tying it to discontent and conflict.

 

:iagree: We are raising our grandson, our son's son. Anyone who hinted to him about things being better if he lived elsewhere would be instantly cut off. I am open to honest discussions from other adults, family or not, about how our grandson is doing. If your mil is open to that, that is the route you go.

[mom4him]

I have faced this issue, and I have dear friends who have faced this issue.

 

Speaking gently here, I think you really, really need to stop undermining your niece's current living situation. If she is not being abused or criminally neglected, then her living situation will not change. All you are doing is creating discontent. Your mil will know that she cannot trust you and will restrict access. At some point as your niece grows older, if your niece loves your mil (it sounds like she does), your niece may also choose to restrict her time with you because of how conflicted that makes her feel. You will become the focus of a lot of frustration, and your ability to help your niece will narrow.

 

Do not comment on her living situation or on how much better it would be with you. Ever.

 

DO continue spending time with her and loving her. Provide the haven and the love that she needs without tying it to discontent and conflict.

I am not saying that your MIL is raising this child correctly but I do know that we rarely see how someone else is doing as being as good as we would.

If I were your MIL and thought that you were undermining my relationship with this child in any way, you would not see very much of this child anymore.

You are better to teach this child to honor and respect her grandmother at all times as long as this isn't bringing direct abuse.

[lionfamily1999]

It could backfire. She could end up feeling like you are "against" her grandma. Ime, that makes them hold on tighter and build up distrust and resentment against the person making the comments. Also, consider that she may wonder how you portray her to other people. Ie, if she does this to Gramma, then why not me?

[Country Mouse]

If I am reading your question right, you are basically asking if using manipulation on a child will achieve the goal of making her want to live with you. I think perhaps you are too close to the situation to be looking at it clearly. Manipulation never strengthens relationships, it only degrades them.

In your specific example, I think it is disingenuous to imply to your neice that grandma's rules aren't fair. I mean, you would have rules, too, right?

I wouldn't recommend the path you are considering taking. I think it could irrevocably damage your relationship with your niece.

[elegantlion]

If I am reading your question right, you are basically asking if using manipulation on a child will achieve the goal of making her want to live with you. I think perhaps you are too close to the situation to be looking at it clearly. Manipulation never strengthens relationships, it only degrades them.

In your specific example, I think it is disingenuous to imply to your neice that grandma's rules aren't fair. I mean, you would have rules, too, right?

I wouldn't recommend the path you are considering taking. I think it could irrevocably damage your relationship with your niece.

 

:iagree:

[MamaT]

I have faced this issue, and I have dear friends who have faced this issue.

 

Speaking gently here, I think you really, really need to stop undermining your niece's current living situation. If she is not being abused or criminally neglected, then her living situation will not change. All you are doing is creating discontent. Your mil will know that she cannot trust you and will restrict access. At some point as your niece grows older, if your niece loves your mil (it sounds like she does), your niece may also choose to restrict her time with you because of how conflicted that makes her feel. You will become the focus of a lot of frustration, and your ability to help your niece will narrow.

 

Do not comment on her living situation or on how much better it would be with you. Ever.

 

DO continue spending time with her and loving her. Provide the haven and the love that she needs without tying it to discontent and conflict.

 

:iagree: You have gotten good advice here.

[Snickerdoodle]

I don't know your situation or any of the people involved obviously. But the way that you wrote your post suggests this is more about you than about the girl. I am saying this gently. I think if you are a positive role model for this girl and can have a positive impact on her life from where you are now, as an Auntie, you should continue to do that without damaging other familial relationships.

[MomOfOneFunOne]

I have heard this in BOTH foster parent training classes and parenting through divorce classes (that I have interpreted!). I dont' have experience with it but I've heard it in both settings multiple times . . . so there may be something to it.

 

If you are negative **in any way** toward the other parent, biological parents, et c, it will backfire eventually. If, on the other hand, you grit your teeth and say what you hate to say but know you should, it will, in the end, be your saving grace. They indicate that if you say things like, "You grandmother loves you so much and is working hard to make sure you are well taken care of and meeting your responsibilities. I wish we could see you this weekend but we'll do it the very second we can!" you will be both building up your neice and her grandmother and no negative associations with you harping on someone she loves. Also, when the girl herself harps on granny, you should, according to them, nip it in the bud. "I wasn't there, Dear, so I dont' know but I do know that Granny loves you and would only do what's best for you." Then help her with ideas of working with granny instead of griping about her. They say that in the long run, you turn out to be the hero here.

 

like I said, though . . . I havent' been involved with either of these scenarios so I dont 'have personal experience. I just know that that's what they say at those classes.

 

Good luck! If I had a dear niece like that, I would want her to come live with me, too.

[Seeker]

I spent two years with my aunt when I was a teenager and I consider them the best years of my life. I had an abusive father (then out of the picture) and neglectful mother, and even though my aunt's heart broke for the conditions in which I lived (as she told me much later on), at no time did she ever try to use tactics to make me want to live with her. I wanted to because I loved her and how her family was, what they did together, etc. My mother would even threaten to send me there because they worked very hard at my aunt's place, being it was a small ranch, but I was treated just like one of her own children--no better and no worse.

 

The reason I finally ended up living with her is that my mother simply gave up on me--I was obedient but rather sassy which wore my mother down--and my mother was about to hand me over to my indulging grandmother or send me to the children's home but my aunt stepped in suggesting during the summer that we have a break from each other by letting me stay with her a couple of weeks. I never sassed my aunt. When the start of school approached, my mother told her she never wanted me back--I also did not know this until years later; I was just asked if I would like to stay there. During those years my aunt protected what little relationship my mother and I had, she even encouraged the relationship, tried to help me understand and talk with respect to my mother, and I thought much more of her because of it. My mother blamed me for leaving, obviously forgetting that she was ready to get rid of me, and I had to forgive her time and again over the years for her jealousy and blaming me, but I learned to do that mostly because of my aunt.

 

My mother died this year. None of us had any regrets about the time I lived with my aunt and our ongoing close relationship but my mother.

Edited October 16, 2009 by Seeker
clarifying

[LibraryLover]

She is not your child.

[MommyOwl]

I agree with the other posters. I've been down this road before and thought I was "being helpful" with some of the things I said. Even though the things I said were facts and objective - - it all backfired in the end and I was the evil one.

 

You have been given some wonderful advice and thankfully, it's not too late for me, so I'll be giving some thought to this advice as well!

 

:grouphug:

 

Mary Alin

[EthiopianFood]

Thank you everyone for not being too harsh with me. I appreciate your advice, even though it wasn't what I wanted to hear. I will follow your advice, since I know in my heart that you all are right. It is so very hard to watch every negative prediction I have had of this situation come true. I worry that someday, she won't listen to me anymore, won't care about my opinion, and then I won't be able to help her at all in any way. I always played by the rules of ethics, until we asked MIL very sincerely and respectfully three years ago if dn could live with us. She said no, of course. The next time dn stayed at our house (she was 5 at the time), dn for some reason mentioned how Grandma misses her when she's not there, and how she needs dn to help her (she has bad knees). I was so disgusted by this, and I thought fine, if she's not going to play by the rules, neither am I. I could go on and on trying to explain the situation, but I suppose it's really me just being defensive. ;) Suffice it to say that me being unable to let go when there is nothing I can do is about me, but my concern really is not, and is well-founded.

 

Thanks everyone.

[iluvmy4blessings]

It is true that if you speak negatively against people it generally backfires. As a child of divorce, my mother constantly spoke about my father negatively. Everything she ever said about him was 100% TRUE in every way. Yet all it did was bring about negativity in my heart and actually made me feel sorry for him!! Once I got older I recognized on my own that everything she said was true. Unfortunately I could not see it at the time. In fact I resented her for it. When I went through my own divorce 3 years ago, I decided to use this lesson on myself. I refused to be negative vocally about what my ex was doing even though he literally ripped out my heart at the time with his actions. I took the high road and I can honestly say it was the right thing to do. My children as they grow older can recognize on their own things about their dad without me telling them. This way I am not the bearer of bad news. It is self evident.

[Unicorn.]

I have faced this issue, and I have dear friends who have faced this issue.

 

Speaking gently here, I think you really, really need to stop undermining your niece's current living situation. If she is not being abused or criminally neglected, then her living situation will not change. All you are doing is creating discontent. Your mil will know that she cannot trust you and will restrict access. At some point as your niece grows older, if your niece loves your mil (it sounds like she does), your niece may also choose to restrict her time with you because of how conflicted that makes her feel. You will become the focus of a lot of frustration, and your ability to help your niece will narrow.

Do not comment on her living situation or on how much better it would be with you. Ever.

 

DO continue spending time with her and loving her. Provide the haven and the love that she needs without tying it to discontent and conflict.

 

I agree whole heartedly! The bold parts in the quote pretty much sum up my thoughts. :grouphug: Continue to love and support your neice. She will appreciate you more for it as she grows older.

[Jean in Newcastle]

The next time dn stayed at our house (she was 5 at the time), dn for some reason mentioned how Grandma misses her when she's not there, and how she needs dn to help her (she has bad knees). I was so disgusted by this, and I thought fine, if she's not going to play by the rules, neither am I.

 

 

 

I honestly do not understand what is so horrible about Grandma missing her when she's not there and even needing her to help her. I would miss my dd terribly if she was gone even for a short time and believe me, I need her help around the house too!

[tdeveson]

You are treading on very thin ice here. What you are talking about is undermining this child's relationship with her grandmother. Obviously, you don't like the mil very much. You may have your reasons. That being said, this looks like a power play to me.

 

You (who have no legal right to do so) have determined that you could provide a better home for your niece and are planning unilaterally to gain control of the situation. I would counter that if you're this willing to manipulate the child and the situation so you can get your way, the child is better off where she is.

 

I'm hoping people can see my heart in this, because I'm not sure I'm going to come across as an awesome person here.

 

*You* know this is not right.

[EthiopianFood]

I honestly do not understand what is so horrible about Grandma missing her when she's not there and even needing her to help her. I would miss my dd terribly if she was gone even for a short time and believe me, I need her help around the house too!

 

She brought it up to manipulate her. Would you feel comfortable making your child literally worry about you when they are supposed to be off having fun? Children aren't supposed to be responsible for taking care of adults. It wasn't what she said, it was the timing of her saying it. I could say that it makes sense for me to point out that her life would be better off with us, since it is overall true, but as pointed out, that isn't appropriate either.

 

You (who have no legal right to do so) have determined that you could provide a better home for your niece and are planning unilaterally to gain control of the situation. I would counter that if you're this willing to manipulate the child and the situation so you can get your way, the child is better off where she is.

 

Yes, because this is all you know of the situation. I didn't find it beneficial to go on and on about what I have observed in the home because it doesn't have anything to do with my request for advice. If someone chooses not to believe me based on very little information, that is up to them. Such are the hazards of posting information on the internet. :)

[tdeveson]

I didn't find it beneficial to go on and on about what I have observed in the home because it doesn't have anything to do with my request for advice.

 

If there are abuse issues, you need to contact the authorities. If it's really that bad for your dn, then you should report it. The fact that you haven't makes me think that you don't "like" the environment, but there is not sufficient cause to call the authorities.

 

It's not a matter of believing you or not. None of us know what goes on there. We're all just responding based on the information you gave us. I can certainly appreciate that you're doing this out of love.

[EthiopianFood]

If there are abuse issues, you need to contact the authorities. If it's really that bad for your dn, then you should report it. The fact that you haven't makes me think that you don't "like" the environment, but there is not sufficient cause to call the authorities.

 

It's not a matter of believing you or not. None of us know what goes on there. We're all just responding based on the information you gave us. I can certainly appreciate that you're doing this out of love.

 

No, not sufficient to call authorities. Emotional neglect isn't quantifiable though. My MIL is actually one of the nicest people I know, which makes it all the more frustrating. You don't call child protection because a child is told "Hey Bushy!" when her hair is down (just one of many comments over the years) because she is black, or because her alcoholic mother, who ignores her most of the time, is allowed to kick her out of her own bed at 12 AM because she doesn't have another place to sleep. Out of the six children MIL raised, two are raging alcoholics, only two have stable, appropriately independent aduts lives, etc. etc. It is just hard to watch dn go down the same path as the others when there is someone who is willing and able to help. Obviously I wouldn't do a perfect job, but at least it would be better than this.

 

ETA: I didn't mean that in a snarky way, I was just trying to explain a little better.

[Lovedtodeath]

same situation. did not show respect for the dad or gma. niece left us all and is smoking pot (and who knows what else) with the mother that was passed out most of the time and didn't show up to the custody hearing.

 

 

it hurts. really hurts.

[EthiopianFood]

same situation. did not show respect for the dad or gma. niece left us all and is smoking pot (and who knows what else) with the mother that was passed out most of the time and didn't show up to the custody hearing.

 

 

it hurts. really hurts.

 

:( It will just kill me if she does something like this in spite of my best efforts. I will not be able to forgive myself if she does something like this partly BECAUSE OF my efforts. I guess pushing a child away is much harder to deal with than just not having influence in the first place. :( If it makes you feel any better, you can still be a soft place to land for her, even if it takes much longer for her to realize she needs it than you ever hoped it. :grouphug:

[tex-mex]

I have faced this issue, and I have dear friends who have faced this issue.

 

Speaking gently here, I think you really, really need to stop undermining your niece's current living situation. If she is not being abused or criminally neglected, then her living situation will not change. All you are doing is creating discontent. Your mil will know that she cannot trust you and will restrict access. At some point as your niece grows older, if your niece loves your mil (it sounds like she does), your niece may also choose to restrict her time with you because of how conflicted that makes her feel. You will become the focus of a lot of frustration, and your ability to help your niece will narrow.

 

Do not comment on her living situation or on how much better it would be with you. Ever.

 

DO continue spending time with her and loving her. Provide the haven and the love that she needs without tying it to discontent and conflict.

 

:iagree:

[Seeker]

She brought it up to manipulate her. Would you feel comfortable making your child literally worry about you when they are supposed to be off having fun? Children aren't supposed to be responsible for taking care of adults. It wasn't what she said, it was the timing of her saying it. I could say that it makes sense for me to point out that her life would be better off with us, since it is overall true, but as pointed out, that isn't appropriate either.

 

My mother did this too, but I would like to you see this from a different perspective. Because of my faith, I belief the Lord provides what you need even when conditions in your life are not ideal. Having come out of an abusive home, I wish many things had been different and it took quite a few years to work it all out, but I learned to forgive what others might see as unforgivable. I learned to love what others might see as lovable. I learned I have a choice to be the person I would like to be rather than a product of how I was raised and that is because I had role models in my life like my aunt.

 

I should say that while it is ideal for children to have carefree childhoods and I am very pleased that I have been able to provide that for my own daughter, I also honestly think children should have the experience of helping out a senior family member or other sickly family members, which my own daughter thankfully has the heart/gift of doing. I believe that most people, who are ill, are needy and more self centered, typically. It is not a bad thing for a child to learn that is a part of the human nature experience or for a child to feel some responsibility in helping a senior or sickly member of the family. Families should be about helping and being able to rely on each other.

 

Being that you are a part of the family, you have your place in that girl's heart regardless of how you see the situation in which she is currently. You have the choice to be one of the number of people who is willing to manipulate her or to just be available to her with loving words and teach her to forgive and love unconditionally.

[EthiopianFood]

I should say that while it is ideal for children to have carefree childhoods and I am very pleased that I have been able to provide that for my own daughter, I also honestly think children should have the experience of helping out a senior family member or other sickly family members, which my own daughter thankfully has the heart/gift of doing. I believe that most people, who are ill, are needy and more self centered, typically. It is not a bad thing for a child to learn that is a part of the human nature experience or for a child to feel some responsibility in helping a senior or sickly member of the family. Families should be about helping and being able to rely on each other.

 

I agree with you. At the same time, a child can't take care of an adult's life. That is beyond their power, level of experience, level of understanding. This situation was akin to making a child feel responsible if something bad happens to the adult, because the child should have been able to "help." Since you came from an abusive situation, I would assume you know that often times, children feel responsible for the bad choices of their parents. It is incredibly harmful to tell a child that you "need" them in order to make them be afraid to leave the home. A five year old can certainly do quite a bit around the home, and they should as well, but they aren't "needed" in this way. As a contrast, there are two-four other adults in the home at any given time, as well as a brother who is five years older. She also has two grown children (the responsible ones that I mentioned) who she calls when she needs help with something. If she is in need of help, I would think it would come from them, but for some reason, they weren't told this same sentiment. Before it was my niece, it was my own dh when he was growing up that was "needed." He wasn't allowed to become his own person because he was only really there to meet her emotional needs. He was made to feel guilty when he wanted to be more independent. Fortunately, it worked out in the end for the both of them, and they have a positive, much healtheir relationship now.

 

I understand what you are saying about God giving us strength. We probably have different views to some extent, but I believe it is our job to help others in difficult situations (you probaby believe something similar). It would be against my own beliefs to say, "This isn't my child, so it is not my concern." I've just been trying to figure what this entails over the past 9 years. I have my own issues, so I don't always do the best thing the first time. :) And the fact is, some adults never do become healthy, for whatever reason. Like I mentioned before, the adults in this family seem to be of the variety that do not find a way to rise above their situations. She could be one of the lucky ones, but how much better to prevent the NEED for this in the first place. I'm sure you are a very consciencious parent, because you know your actions will impact your children when they are grown. It is the same concern here.

[Impish]

I have faced this issue, and I have dear friends who have faced this issue.

 

Speaking gently here, I think you really, really need to stop undermining your niece's current living situation. If she is not being abused or criminally neglected, then her living situation will not change. All you are doing is creating discontent. Your mil will know that she cannot trust you and will restrict access. At some point as your niece grows older, if your niece loves your mil (it sounds like she does), your niece may also choose to restrict her time with you because of how conflicted that makes her feel. You will become the focus of a lot of frustration, and your ability to help your niece will narrow.

 

Do not comment on her living situation or on how much better it would be with you. Ever.

 

DO continue spending time with her and loving her. Provide the haven and the love that she needs without tying it to discontent and conflict.

:iagree:

*snip* I believe that most people, who are ill, are needy and more self centered, typically. *snip*

While the rest of your post was lovely, I honestly had a strong negative reaction to this. As someone with severe chronic pain, the idea that I'm (or any other chronic pain 'ill' person) is 'more self centred' is just very offensive to me.

 

As a wife and mother, I just found that comment hurtful that anyone would make such a generalization about an 'ill' person.

[Seeker]

:iagree:

 

While the rest of your post was lovely, I honestly had a strong negative reaction to this. As someone with severe chronic pain, the idea that I'm (or any other chronic pain 'ill' person) is 'more self centred' is just very offensive to me.

 

As a wife and mother, I just found that comment hurtful that anyone would make such a generalization about an 'ill' person.

Thank you and I apologize to you and anyone else who finds this offensive. I did not mean to offend anyone.

 

I have been one of those people with severe back pain for six years of my life and I have worked with chronically ill people for fifteen years since then. All I can say is that when people do get well, and many of the people I knew did, they usually have a very different personality. Often they don't realize it, because in their heart they know who they want to be and I have a gift of seeing who the person is beneath the illness, the real personality. It is rare to find people who do not change for the better when they are well, but I have met a few.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

I have not read all the replies, but I've been in a similar situation. I baby sat my niece full time for two years, and now that she is in school, she goes to aftercare and I don't get to see her as frequently. It's killing me that we are no longer as big an influence on her life. She liked being here because she was treated like a child, and not like another adult, as she is treated at home by her mother, her grandmother and two other adult women that live there. I really, really try not to say anything negative about her home life, but it's very difficult, when she is the last priority on anyone's mind in that house. She will never have the advantages my kids have of being read to, being encouraged to do their best, having someone listen to their thoughts and concerns. having age appropriate activities, etc. I have tried to talk to her mother about what her plans are for dn's future, but she just blows me off.

 

She would often ask me why my kids were not allowed to say or do certain things. I would just say that at our house we do things this way. It's our house rules. Other people may decide to do things differently, and they have different rules. If you want to be at our house, you need to follow our house rules. (Very difficult not to say, "No one gives a rat's ___ at your house what you do, that's why you can do whatever you want.") ;) Anyhoo, I don't really have advice, just sympathy. I hope your niece will decide to live with you. I've always made it clear to my niece, too, that she can come and stay with us whenever she wants. I've also told her mom and grandmother that she could live with us. They said no, of course, but it's out there, just in case. I'm afraid my niece may be taken away by Children's Services because of the stupid things SIL does, like send her to my house in a short sleeve shirt with a light sweatshirt on a day when it was -5 degrees outside. Not kidding- no winter coat, no hat, no mittens, no boots. Just a t-shirt, leggings, tennis shoes and little sweatshirt. I took her to preschool with my son, and I had to find something for her to wear, so they wouldn't take me to jail for child endangering. I could go on and on with the stories, but I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.

[lionfamily1999]

Thank you everyone for not being too harsh with me. I appreciate your advice, even though it wasn't what I wanted to hear. I will follow your advice, since I know in my heart that you all are right. It is so very hard to watch every negative prediction I have had of this situation come true. I worry that someday, she won't listen to me anymore, won't care about my opinion, and then I won't be able to help her at all in any way. I always played by the rules of ethics, until we asked MIL very sincerely and respectfully three years ago if dn could live with us. She said no, of course. The next time dn stayed at our house (she was 5 at the time), dn for some reason mentioned how Grandma misses her when she's not there, and how she needs dn to help her (she has bad knees). I was so disgusted by this, and I thought fine, if she's not going to play by the rules, neither am I. I could go on and on trying to explain the situation, but I suppose it's really me just being defensive. ;) Suffice it to say that me being unable to let go when there is nothing I can do is about me, but my concern really is not, and is well-founded.

 

Thanks everyone.

My mother does this. My dd feels an obligation to stay, her gramma needs her, her gramma would be lost without her, etc. It hurts and angers me, because it's NOT playing by the rules, but (but BUT BUT) the same 'rules' apply. One day dd, and your dn, are going to see this manipulation for what it is. They are going to see that being forced to parent an adult is wrong. Already, dd has started coming to me, saying she needs help. I help, quietly reserving my more aserbic thoughts, and simply support her. I don't know if I'll ever manage to finagle my own dd into my own house, but I do know that she trust, loves and relies on me. My mother is digging her own grave, so to speak.

 

:grouphug:

[Impish]

Thank you and I apologize to you and anyone else who finds this offensive. I did not mean to offend anyone.

 

I have been one of those people with severe back pain for six years of my life and I have worked with chronically ill people for fifteen years since then. All I can say is that when people do get well, and many of the people I knew did, they usually have a very different personality. Often they don't realize it, because in their heart they know who they want to be and I have a gift of seeing who the person is beneath the illness, the real personality. It is rare to find people who do not change for the better when they are well, but I have met a few.

Yes, I'm sure that my personality would change if suddenly I was pain free. I wouldn't get as cranky as when the pain is out of this world, and I wouldn't be so frustrated with myself and my body, and everything I've been robbed of since developing RSD. I get that aspect, absolutely. That said, I'm still me, even if it means I'm me in pain. My values haven't changed, my focus hasn't changed.

 

 

But to generalize and say that most people who are ill are self centred is just wrong. My world revolves around my faith, my husband, and my children. Unfortunate accommodations must be made due to pain and pain flare ups (ie I can no longer house keep as I used to, make our own bread and pasta, hug the kids with both arms, play outside in the winter at all, teach my kids to hit a ball with a bat...the list is endless)...but self centred I'm not. I always choose to put their needs ahead of my pain, ALWAYS. And yes, that sometimes means I do things that I *know* will have me in bed, screaming for relief into my pillow, but I *always* try and tough it out and see them into bed first. Sometimes that doesn't work, but I always do my best.

[Laurie4b]

RaeAnne, I wanted to offer encouragement about how much what you already do can matter. There is a lot of research showing that the factor that makes the most difference in outcome for kids in less-than-ideal homes (even abusive ones) is having someone in their lives who loves them, is stable, and believes in the child.

 

My own mother had a horrendous home situation but had stable, loving grandparents, aunts, etc. with whom she spent time. She had some issues as an adult, but nothing like what one would predict. She's really overcome so much. I think those outside relationships had a lot to do with it.

[Seeker]

Yes, I'm sure that my personality would change if suddenly I was pain free. I wouldn't get as cranky as when the pain is out of this world, and I wouldn't be so frustrated with myself and my body, and everything I've been robbed of since developing RSD. I get that aspect, absolutely. That said, I'm still me, even if it means I'm me in pain. My values haven't changed, my focus hasn't changed.

 

 

But to generalize and say that most people who are ill are self centred is just wrong. My world revolves around my faith, my husband, and my children. Unfortunate accommodations must be made due to pain and pain flare ups (ie I can no longer house keep as I used to, make our own bread and pasta, hug the kids with both arms, play outside in the winter at all, teach my kids to hit a ball with a bat...the list is endless)...but self centred I'm not. I always choose to put their needs ahead of my pain, ALWAYS. And yes, that sometimes means I do things that I *know* will have me in bed, screaming for relief into my pillow, but I *always* try and tough it out and see them into bed first. Sometimes that doesn't work, but I always do my best.

Impish, I apologized to you, even though my comments were not directed at anyone in particular, certainly not at you. What else would you have me for you personally to earn your forgiveness?

[EthiopianFood]

RaeAnne, I wanted to offer encouragement about how much what you already do can matter. There is a lot of research showing that the factor that makes the most difference in outcome for kids in less-than-ideal homes (even abusive ones) is having someone in their lives who loves them, is stable, and believes in the child.

 

My own mother had a horrendous home situation but had stable, loving grandparents, aunts, etc. with whom she spent time. She had some issues as an adult, but nothing like what one would predict. She's really overcome so much. I think those outside relationships had a lot to do with it.

 

Thanks. :001_smile: I don't know if anyone else in the family had someone who was stable and actively involved when they were growing up, so I shouldn't assume the situation is almost hopeless. It is just so, so hard not knowing how things will turn out for her. I will try to just focus on my influence in the present as much as I can.

[ConnieB]

If what is lacking in her living situation is emotional it's not going to improve if you plant ideas in her head that she should (or is) unhappy with her living situation. I would say that if anything you should strive to be the emotional support that she needs....and eventually she will come to the conclusion on her own where she wants to be. She may not be able to put into words WHY she feels better at your house, but when your emotional needs aren't being met you just know it....and then when they are met, you know that as well. Again, maybe not the whys, just that this person makes you feel better to be around, etc etc.

 

If you try to manipulate her feelings, especially into feeling negative about a situation that as far as she knows she has no control over, you will only be hurting her emotionally. And obviously that's the last thing you want to do.

 

Show her by example that your home is a safe haven for her, that while there are rules there is also an abundance of love and security even when she breaks the rules or screws up. Unconditional love. When she feels that from you she will know it is a positive place.

 

If she feels that she can't tell you about something because you'll just badmouth Grandma, she'll clam up and not feel that she can talk to you about some things. That's not meeting anyone's emotional needs to have to be careful what you say to someone....that's why so many of us consider our husbands to be our best friends, because we know we can say anything and not be judged nor put down or made to feel negative or hopeless. I count on his unconditional love and understanding even when he disagrees with me, as much as count on air to breath.

[OnTheBrink]

Thank you everyone for not being too harsh with me. I appreciate your advice, even though it wasn't what I wanted to hear. I will follow your advice, since I know in my heart that you all are right. It is so very hard to watch every negative prediction I have had of this situation come true. I worry that someday, she won't listen to me anymore, won't care about my opinion, and then I won't be able to help her at all in any way. I always played by the rules of ethics, until we asked MIL very sincerely and respectfully three years ago if dn could live with us. She said no, of course. The next time dn stayed at our house (she was 5 at the time), dn for some reason mentioned how Grandma misses her when she's not there, and how she needs dn to help her (she has bad knees). I was so disgusted by this, and I thought fine, if she's not going to play by the rules, neither am I. I could go on and on trying to explain the situation, but I suppose it's really me just being defensive. ;) Suffice it to say that me being unable to let go when there is nothing I can do is about me, but my concern really is not, and is well-founded.

 

Thanks everyone.

 

1) Someone else's bad behavior (breaking of rules, whatever) never, ever, ever justifies your own bad behavior.

 

2) You sowing seeds of malcontent will absolutely backfire on you. Count on it. You reap what you sow, so be careful.

 

3) If you're wanting to continue to be in this child's life, you need to "join" with Grandma to ensure this child's needs are met. If Grandma feels you're out to undermine her, count on her cutting you either completely off, or way back. Come alongside Grandma and help her raise DN. You can do that without becoming the enemy.

 

4) If you truly feel there is abuse, document it, but you'd better be factual about it. Feelings aren't facts, so what you document needs to be "X happened. Y was the result. Z is what DN did. LMNOP is what Grandma said, verbatim."

 

5) I really see nothing wrong with Grandma saying she missed DN when she's gone. Obviously, the child isn't chained to the bed if she's allowed to visit with other relatives. I think you need to be very very careful in how you choose to perceive things said. Don't let your feelings of wanting this child with you color the reality of her current situation. It's easy to get a burr in your bonnet over something and then allow it to alter everything else.

[Joanne]

5) I really see nothing wrong with Grandma saying she missed DN when she's gone. Obviously, the child isn't chained to the bed if she's allowed to visit with other relatives. I think you need to be very very careful in how you choose to perceive things said. Don't let your feelings of wanting this child with you color the reality of her current situation. It's easy to get a burr in your bonnet over something and then allow it to alter everything else.

 

This is an excellent point. It's not unlike a hostile/adversarial divorce situation. The children can (and *should*) simultaneously feel happy and enjoying the parent they are with WHILE also missing the other parent.

 

OP, you'd do best to make it safe for your relative to love g'ma.