No phonics before 6?

[FairProspects]

See reply below please.

[FairProspects]

I feel like a complete WTM failure. As I read it, the only thing the WTM advises during K is teaching your child to read and everything else can go by the wayside. Yet the only thing my ds hates is learning to read! He actually chose a NAP today over a reading lesson. That's how much he hates it!

 

He loves science. He loves math. He tolerates handwriting. He cannot stand learning to read. It's not even that he can't read, he just WON'T. I told him he could be done today if he read one word off of the white board, he glanced at it and said "gas" without even sounding it out. I know he can do this. He said he would do the SSRW songs and games, but the waterworks come on whenever PP comes out.

 

Should I just chuck the whole reading thing for a few months or even a year? Will he be really behind if we start phonics lessons at 6? I'm worried he will never want to read at all and it will impact him forever. I know we shouldn't compare, but here it seems like everyone's kids start reading at 3 & 4!!

 

We have a very language-centered home, and ds loves to listen to books. He frequently writes has me write down poems and stories he creates. He just has no desire whatsoever to read himself! It has gotten so pathetic that when I read ancedotes about all children wanting to learn to read I find myself laughing at the authors!!

 

Has anyone had kids like this? How did it turn out? Please tell me your dc now like reading!!

[yslek]

D has on October b-day, so even though this is her K year, she just turned 6. I've been working on reading lessons with her on-and-off since she was 4.5. (By on-and-off I mean, I'd start teaching her, realize she just wasn't ready, and put everything away for several months before trying again.) She's only just now starting to "get it". She's still not totally thrilled with reading lessons, but she's able to sit through them, and is actually making progress. (Before, she would learn her letter sounds gladly, but just didn't get blending the sounds together.)

 

When I went to school in Germany, reading instruction didn't start until 1st grade, so I didn't learn to read until I was 6. I think it's probably fine to put the reading stuff away for a while. :)

[wulfbourne]

I probably wouldn't push the issue too much. I think it's Finland doesn't formally begin teaching reading before the age of 7, and they have what's considered the best educational system in the world. If he likes listening I'd probably just read to him right now.

[prairiegirl]

If he hates doing it that much then I would leave it for a few months and try again in Jan.

[AudreyTN]

Maybe he doesn't like it because he doesn't "get it" yet. My ds is 6.5 and we're only a few weeks into phonics. I've tried off and on with him since he was about 4 and he just never got it... I think he just wasn't ready.

 

NOW he's catching on slowly, but he's starting to get it... AND he has the desire to read!

[MissKNG]

I feel like a complete WTM failure. As I read it, the only thing the WTM advises during K is teaching your child to read and everything else can go by the wayside. Yet the only thing my ds hates is learning to read! He actually chose a NAP today over a reading lesson. That's how much he hates it!

 

He loves science. He loves math. He tolerates handwriting. He cannot stand learning to read. It's not even that he can't read, he just WON'T.

 

 

Maybe the WTM approach just doesn't work for him. I would follow his interests and he's GOING to have to read to do science stuff, for example. What about getting books he can read on the science stuff that interests him?

 

And you are not a WTM failure!

[kmacnchs]

Please read with an open mind...I mean no harm. I do not know you or your son. :001_smile: That being said, my daughter is having these issues and responses in math. Reading has (pretty much) always come easily for her. She has to concentrate and work really hard in math though. Who in their right mind likes to work hard, get really frustrated, and maybe fail? No one! But that is part of learning...pushing yourself (or being pushed by a loving adult) over the hump of frustration into a wonderful land of understanding. If your son is not ready, that's one thing. But if you are going to not teach him whenever there is a little resistance, you will not be teaching him anything very soon...

 

If you decide to not drop reading, here are some things I have found work:

First of all, let him know that when you say it is time to do school, he needs to come with a happy heart and say, "Yes ma'am momma". School is not going to go well if it is done begrudgingly.

Once the attitude is gone and it is still a struggle (though it may not be), go by time, not lessons. Set an appropriate time limit and do as much of the lesson as you can...pick up where you left off the next day. There is less frustration that way.

I remind mine to have a happy heart, do her best, and do what she knows is right a lot throughout the lesson (when things get hard and the whinny attitude comes out).

I am not into treat-giving but when she is concentrating, I will praise her socks off and put a smiley face on her paper or a stamp (I realize that wouldn't work in a book though) :)

 

That's all I can think of right now...hope that helps :)

[Mabelen]

I wouldn't push reading but since he likes "writing" I would have a moveable or magnetic alphabet available for him to spell words. You can help him out by sounding out the words and showing him the letters for the respective sound. He then can copy in his own handwriting if he wants.

 

Montessori approaches reading this way. Apparently many children are not interested in or developmentaly ready for reading somebody else's thoughts, but are very interested in recording their own in writing. It's reading through the back door if you know what I mean.

 

Funnily, my oldest, who was in Montessori for Pre-K and K was not that way at all, but by the time she started Pre-k she had already learned to read all by herself. My youngest, who is now 5, is developping following the Montessori observed model. She is reading, but her interest is in writing her ideas and labelling the pictures she draws. She frequently asks how to spell things, which lead me to ask her if she wanted mommy to teach her how to read or how to spell. She said she wanted to learn how to spell. I am now trying to work out how to go about that myself.

[ABQmom]

My dd is five--our lessons are VERY short. If she starts showing signs of frustration--we stop. With all my kids, I followed the same pattern--5 minutes a day can teach them a lot!

[Aletheia Academy]

I would agree with PP who gently suggested sticking with it but setting a brief time limit. Here is where I think the WTM and CM approaches dovetail very nicely. I believe it is imperative to train the will and establish habits. Brief incremental lessons can't help but produce results over time. There must be some starting point that you can establish that is at your son's frustration level but does not crush him.

 

Start with 5 minutes a day or less, if necessary, in phonics instruction. Balance that with pleasant read-alouds. As he progresses, read easy readers that he enjoys together, allowing him to sound out short-vowel words.

 

I would be very business-like about it: "This is school time, this is what we do." Before long, the habit will be established, and your son will experience success. Increase the time spent on these reading lessons as your son can tolerate it.

 

This has been my general approach. We have seen good progress, and my kids have a generally positive attitude about learning. It didn't happen overnight. Some folks might consider this approach to be too harsh...

[Lisa in the UP of MI]

I wouldn't push reading but since he likes "writing" I would have a moveable or magnetic alphabet available for him to spell words. You can help him out by sounding out the words and showing him the letters for the respective sound. He then can copy in his own handwriting if he wants.

 

Montessori approaches reading this way. Apparently many children are not interested in or developmentaly ready for reading somebody else's thoughts, but are very interested in recording their own in writing. It's reading through the back door if you know what I mean.

 

Funnily, my oldest, who was in Montessori for Pre-K and K was not that way at all, but by the time she started Pre-k she had already learned to read all by herself. My youngest, who is now 5, is developping following the Montessori observed model. She is reading, but her interest is in writing her ideas and labelling the pictures she draws. She frequently asks how to spell things, which lead me to ask her if she wanted mommy to teach her how to read or how to spell. She said she wanted to learn how to spell. I am now trying to work out how to go about that myself.

 

I second this! This is what I did with my oldest dd and she went from only reading one word at a time to reading a whole easy book (not Bob book style) by herself when things clicked. I used Montessori Read and Write to guide me, then added All About Spelling when she was ready. It has been a big hit and this is what I plan to do with all of my kiddos. DS has just started.

[FairProspects]

Thanks for all the responses. I guess my question is more along the lines of how do you know when resistance really means they are not developmentally ready?

 

We have been doing lessons for 9 weeks now, so I would think that is a pretty good time to get into a routine, and I am not getting nearly as much resistance towards anything else we do so I'm thinking in this case maybe it means he really isn't ready.

 

I think the moveable alphabet is a fantastic idea! Ds loves to spell things out with the HWOT wood blocks, I'm sure he'd like to do that with an alphabet too. Its the sounding out that just kills him. He tries and when he doesn't get it right away or he mixes up b and d he freaks out and says he is not good at reading and doesn't want anything to do with it.

[johnandtinagilbert]

I have struggled twice with 2 boys (out of 5dc) who were 5yo, to teach reading. Frustration. Tears. Agony. Guilt. Shame. Yeah...it stunk. With both, I waited 'til they were closer to or at 6 and not only did the struggle stop, but they enjoyed learning so much more. Interestingly enough, with the latter half of my gang, I found a program, Phonics Road, that encourages waiting until 6.

 

With both boys, math was always a breeze and they loved science. They enjoyed being read to and doing projects for history.

 

In you case, I'd suggest waiting and just diving in to the other subjects. I believe you can teach "due diligence" and hard work by using these subjects also.

 

The love of reading can so easily be ripped away and it is difficult to regain.

 

Take a 3-6 month break and try again. He may just not be ready. It will come.

[SilverMoon]

I'd drop PP, hand him a stack of Leapfrog videos and let him play on http://www.starfall.com as much as he likes. :)

 

My kids who used PP all went through a spot where they would FAR rather practice reading in a real book than that book. Once they'd been through the stack of BOB books and similar readers, PP wasn't so daunting anymore. I let them take their phonics practice elsewhere for awhile. Once they had their reading wings on they didn't squeak a bit about going back to PP to practice a particular rule. (We turned to it more on an as needed basis at that point.)

[yslek]

I think the moveable alphabet is a fantastic idea! Ds loves to spell things out with the HWOT wood blocks, I'm sure he'd like to do that with an alphabet too. Its the sounding out that just kills him. He tries and when he doesn't get it right away or he mixes up b and d he freaks out and says he is not good at reading and doesn't want anything to do with it.

 

This reminded me of T. I tried to teach him to read using 100 EZ Lessons (which had worked so well for B) but it just frustrated him. He had really good fine motor skills, though, and liked to draw and write, so I purchased Spell to Write and Read (SWR) for him. It was a great fit! He learned to read by learning to spell, and even though we didn't stick with SWR for more than 2 years (too time consuming :tongue_smilie:) the foundation provided by the program was really good. He became a solid reader, and enjoys reading on his own. All About Spelling has a similar approach to SWR and includes letter tiles. Maybe your ds would enjoy something like this?

[KrissiK]

Maybe try doing phonics lessons with sciency type stuff. My boys love it when they have to read and write sentences about muddy dumptrucks and cars that go fast and crash into the pond. I often write really stupid and silly sentences, which gives them more of an incentive to try to read it. Now, my boys don't usually :glare:(I'm writing this after a near meltdown this morning, on my part) protest when they have to read, but reading about stuff they like helps the medicine go down better.

[Mommy22alyns]

I'd drop PP, hand him a stack of Leapfrog videos and let him play on www.starfall.com as much as he likes. :)

 

 

 

:iagree: If he can glance up and read "gas," then he's been making some kind of progress and I wouldn't dub him not developmentally ready. Maybe he just doesn't like PP. Come at it from a different angle. If you are determined to stick with PP in some way, I like the suggestion to keep things very, very short.

 

But take my words with a grain of salt since I only have youngers! ;)

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I second using starfall.com and letting ds watch Between the Lions everyday as a fun way to learn reading for a while.

[G5052]

Its the sounding out that just kills him. He tries and when he doesn't get it right away or he mixes up b and d he freaks out and says he is not good at reading and doesn't want anything to do with it.

 

His confidence is shaken, and he may be a kid that wants to please you and just can't. I'd back up and spend a lot of time on what he knows and then add just a tiny bit of new until it becomes second nature and then a tiny bit more. My oldest was very much like this. It took me a quite awhile to teach him fully how to read (i.e. years) because he didn't grasp new material very quickly, and he'd fall apart if I acted the least bit disappointed. And he loved magnetic letters and phonics cards. When he wasn't advancing, we played with the letters and cards a lot. And you'd never know now how hard it was then...

[ABQmom]

His confidence is shaken, and he may be a kid that wants to please you and just can't. I'd back up and spend a lot of time on what he knows and then add just a tiny bit of new until it becomes second nature and then a tiny bit more. My oldest was very much like this. It took me a quite awhile to teach him fully how to read (i.e. years) because he didn't grasp new material very quickly, and he'd fall apart if I acted the least bit disappointed. And he loved magnetic letters and phonics cards. When he wasn't advancing, we played with the letters and cards a lot. And you'd never know now how hard it was then...

 

 

I agree that it sounds as if his confidence is shaken. Drop what he isn't doing successfully, and go with what little he CAN do and experience success. Maybe just learning initial letter sounds--playing with magnet letters, etc. If blending sounds is frustrating him, he isn't ready. Read to him a lot!

[sarahv]

You know, I kind of looked for signs that my son was noticing that he couldn't read. Like when he sees words that he wants to know something about, but can't read them. For instance, today, he was looking for a video to watch, and he has to read the words to know what video is what. He kept bringing them over to me to read to him. When I'm busy, and he wants to know what something says, I'll have him spell it to me, then I can tell him what it is. When he began to have this awareness, then I figured reading might mean something to him.

 

I also read to them every day, but sometimes when they want a story, I'm busy, so I say, "Just read it yourself". I knew he had gained an awareness of his lack of skill in reading when he began to answer, "But I can't read the words, Mom."

 

In numbers I look for similar signs, awareness that he knows he doesn't know. KWIM?

 

I agree with PP who say that reading often clicks better at 6. I was ready to just do an introduction in reading this year, instead of a whole program, but decided to go with the whole program anyway to see if he's ready. He may not be, and if that is the case, we'll just stall a little and ramp it up as he develops.

 

That said, I also agree with PP who talked about being firm about school time and lessons. My kids know that school time is about being quiet and listening and doing what their told. Every now and then I get a "No, mom, that's not right." And I have to reply with, "No, son, I'm the teacher, you listen to what I say." We had to establish that idea earlier this summer, because I wanted him to know that as we entered the school year I would be wearing the "teacher hat" more often. :001_smile: Like every day. :001_smile:

 

One little note about reading lessons: we tried Phonics Pathways, and it was not really a hit. I had to do alot of bribing with skittles just to sit down to a 10 minute reading lesson. I changed programs to a colorful, story-filled, multi-faceted program, and it works soooooo much better. Just a thought.

[The Governess]

Thanks for all the responses. I guess my question is more along the lines of how do you know when resistance really means they are not developmentally ready?

 

We have been doing lessons for 9 weeks now, so I would think that is a pretty good time to get into a routine, and I am not getting nearly as much resistance towards anything else we do so I'm thinking in this case maybe it means he really isn't ready.

 

I think the moveable alphabet is a fantastic idea! Ds loves to spell things out with the HWOT wood blocks, I'm sure he'd like to do that with an alphabet too. Its the sounding out that just kills him. He tries and when he doesn't get it right away or he mixes up b and d he freaks out and says he is not good at reading and doesn't want anything to do with it.

 

If you like the movable alphabet idea, look into getting All About Spelling's set of magnetic letter tiles. You use them with a 24x36 magnetic whiteboard. They have not only the letters a-z but all of the phonograms. We are using this program right now and it's been great!

[FairProspects]

Can you use AAS with a child who doesn't read yet? I thought I read that it wasn't good for teaching a child to read...

 

We are thinking about switching to Phonics Road next year, but since we were waiting a year, I thought I'd try something else to get him reading while we waited for the writing ability to catch up :tongue_smilie:. So much for the best laid plans...

[The Governess]

You're right, I wouldn't use the AAS program until a child was reading somewhat, but you can buy their letter tiles separately and incorporate those into whatever phonics program you are using if you wanted to give it a more hands-on aspect.

[kmacnchs]

:iagree: If he can glance up and read "gas," then he's been making some kind of progress and I wouldn't dub him not developmentally ready. Maybe he just doesn't like PP. Come at it from a different angle. If you are determined to stick with PP in some way, I like the suggestion to keep things very, very short.

 

But take my words with a grain of salt since I only have youngers! ;)

 

Okay, I'll post one more time and then let my dead horse opinion rest...imo, if he can glance up and read "gas", that tells you that he is ready to learn to read and that he can read (has learned somethings).

 

Now, if you are on lesson ?#? and he seems to get stuck (it gets too hard), I am all for reviewing what he has learned and him reading books on that level until he is solid in his skills but I would not stop phonics.

 

There was a point with OPG that my dd1 got "stuck" and we stopped for about a month and just practiced reading books w/long vowels (what she got stuck on) until she progressed past that point. I can't tell you what would have happened if we would have stopped but I can tell you that repetition worked...for what it's worth...:D

[Terabith]

Would a program like Headsprout be more motivating for him?

 

If he's having that much resistance to Phonics Pathways, I'd say that's a bad fit with him. If the word on the white board was in fact "gas," then he's certainly capable of reading, but perhaps he's not ready for reading lessons. He might flourish if given another six months; he might even teach himself to read during that time.

 

I agree with the "five minute" rule. This is what we're going to do for five minutes....

 

Most people's kids are NOT learning to read at 3 and 4. It sometimes seems like it on here, but it's just not so. You will do him NO harm (and there might be some benefits) by dropping formal reading lessons until six or even six and a half. Often when kids start later they make much faster progress, although I wouldn't go much past 6.5, maybe seven for a boy. Around here, the librarian, who is a bit younger than my mother, was telling me how her school taught no reading until second grade, and apparently a nearby school system didn't teach it till third. They certainly were a literate generation. In first grade they did a lot of math (tho not a lot written), science experiments and projects, listened to a lot of stories, put on plays, played, especially outside. They did a lot of art and music, had a weekly woodshop, and apparently all the kids learned to play the recorder. The girls did knitting and sewing. Not sure what the boys did then.

 

Just saying, don't panic. Try a different approach like Headsprout, but I think if his resistance continues, there's a lot to be gained by just dropping it and continuing with school via math and science and listening. He doesn't have to learn to read in kindergarten, and around here most kindergarteners currently are six or turn six before Christmas. I think if he has picked up on reading gas, he might start intuitively teaching himself. It certainly implies to me that he is unlikely to have a learning disability, which is the main reason not to wait on instruction. Then in six months, start again (maybe using Webster's speller on a white board or the Reading for All Learners little books).

[ElizabethB]

You could try my phonics game for a week or so, then go back to PP, but work from a white board instead of the book.

 

I also found with all my students (including my daughter) that they learned better when they spelled a word or two as they were learning to sound them out. You can do oral spelling or "written" spelling with magnetic letters.

[Caribbean Queen]

I always thought of K as where you learn letters and a few words. First grade is where children really start learning to read. When I was in K it was half a day and we had rest time and snack. There was no expectation that we would really know how to read. In October were were still learning letters. The K graduates around here are doing a little something with reading, but I can't say they know how to read.

 

The internet is full of people who say their children were reading chapter books in Pre-K and K. I have known a lot of Kers and I have never seen any read a chapter book. Never. Have you known any? Don't feel like you need to keep up with any spectacular stories you see on the internet.

 

Yes, you can start teaching your son to read at 6 years old. You do not have to try teach him to read at 5 years old.

[Cornerstone Classical]

my dd was EXACTLY like this with OPGTR, we started it when she was 5.5 yrs old. A year later and she was still like your child, academically and attitude wise, she shed alot of tears. This year we are doing MFW 1st grade program, and she is happy, and I am astonished how quickly she is reading, a progressing at a fast pace. I'm amazed at her attitude change too. She loves MFW. And is learning SO MUCH.:001_smile::001_smile:

[stripe]

I found the activities in Reading Reflex to be very gentle and fun, without any of the " 'b' says bbbb" stuff that drives me crazy and with a clear explanation of tricky letter combinations in the later stages. The program is very careful to state when your child will be ready for these activities or when it is better to wait a while and try again. I have liked it and my son has benefited from a way to add structure to what he'd already figured out on his own.

[Lisa in the UP of MI]

Can you use AAS with a child who doesn't read yet? I thought I read that it wasn't good for teaching a child to read...

 

We are thinking about switching to Phonics Road next year, but since we were waiting a year, I thought I'd try something else to get him reading while we waited for the writing ability to catch up :tongue_smilie:. So much for the best laid plans...

 

That's how we used it! About half-way through level one she went from reading one word at a time to reading a whole book by herself.

[Lovedtodeath]

I didn't read the other replies. Feel free to chuck it, but you can also try DVDs, online programs, Progressive Phonics, Montessori books, and learning to read through spelling. There are more fun ways to learn reading.

[MommyOwl]

Maybe he doesn't like it because he doesn't "get it" yet. My ds is 6.5 and we're only a few weeks into phonics. I've tried off and on with him since he was about 4 and he just never got it... I think he just wasn't ready.

 

NOW he's catching on slowly, but he's starting to get it... AND he has the desire to read!

:iagree: We are in exactly this same place.