Can an unschooler become a scientist or mathematician?

[lulubelle]

I am not an unschooler, but I'm curious to know if a child that is late to develop math skills can become a scientist or mathematician? I know a woman who unschooled and her kids are all leaning toward the arts. I also just read the book by the couple who raised 4 boys - and as the publishing 20 years ago - 3 went to Harvard. She seems to have been primarily an unschooler. Yet, she and her husband were teachers by trade. I think they taught a lot on their farm with day to day things, but did not seem to do text/teaching books till the boys were in high school. It just surprises me. Now I want to know what the boys ended up doing. My husband is a scientist and is convinced that a kid that is late in the area of math will not be prepared for calculus or a field of science. Any thought?

[cathmom]

I hope your dh is wrong! My dd13 is behind in math because of her dyslexia (currently working through MUS Delta), but wants to be a vet.

[Denise in Florida]

There is no reason they couldn't. It really depends on the child's strengths and interests.

 

We are relaxed/unschoolish. A true unschooler would think we did too much text work, a school at home type would think we didn't do anything. :lol: Neither fish nor fowl I think.

 

My oldest daughter has an affinity for math and music. She completed Calculus 2 at the Community College before graduating High School, she was in the math club and won several math competitions. I did not use a math textbook until 4th grade and my mother was appalled. She had made me promise not to use them :001_smile:, she said they create a mindset that math is only in books when it is so much more. I think she would have loved the show Numb3rs. We did not use one again until High School Algebra.

 

My youngest daughter is interested in Equine Science, she will ask for and learn the math necessary for understanding the science she wants to study.

 

It is true that many unschoolers pursue liberal arts such as history and literature or fine arts but there is no reason they can't be mathematical.

[OrganicAnn]

I think all 4 of the kids eventually went to Harvard (one was adopted so it wasn't that they all had really smart genes).

 

From what I read unschooling is not no schooling. I think if a kid has a real desire to learn about math or science they will pursue that in or out of school. My brother is a physic professor and he used to read my dad's college science textbook in Middle school and high school just because he was curious.

Edited September 16, 2009 by OrganicAnn

[IsabelC]

There are many examples of unschoolers, relaxed homeschoolers and school dropouts becoming successful in almost all fields, including science and math. Eg Albert Einstein was thrown out for failing school and learned most of what he knew independently; Thomas Eddison was taught at home by his mother but learned science by independent reading.

 

I would say that if an unschooled child has the talent and the determination to excel in a particular profession, she will be able to do it. This may involve choosing to do formal classes, or finding a mentor, or learning independently, or any combination of learning methods to culminate in taking the necessary college course. Note, unschooling does not mean only doing natural learning. The generally accepted definition is a situation where the student is in control of the learning process and the parent takes on a role of facilitator. Many unschooled children do choose to do some formal learning, and some even take classes at the local school or college to prepare them for further education.

 

The comment about being 'late' or 'behind' would make no sense to an unschooling family, as they are not trying to follow some kind of schedule, and doing a bit of everything each year is only one option for learning. In most curricula, elementary math consists of only a few things: addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, fractions, decimals and percentages. You get various bells and whistles, but that's what they need to know to move further on to algebra, geometry, trigonometry, statistics and calculus. I don't think you could raise a normal child to age 12 or so without them learning the basic arithmetic if you tried, so that only leaves the last three on my list, plus maybe long division if the child wasn't curious enough to ask about that before. If the child then realises she desparately wants to be a mathematician, she would probably cut back on some of her language arts and history, forget about art and music for the time being, and spend several hours a day on math. It wouldn't take long to 'catch up'.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Hotdrink

[EKS]

I didn't take calculus until college and I only made it to algebra 2 in high school. I got a degree in biochemistry and worked successful scientist for seven years and then as a science/medical writer at the same company for another three years.

 

There are many paths one can take to become a scientist. It would have been easier for me in college if I had paid attention in my math classes in high school but I came out fine anyway.

[Joanne]

Unschooling does not mean uneducated. If a child decides on a career path that involves higher level science or math, the student and the unschooling family will facilitate that.

[Blueridge]

I was inspired by the story of Nathaniel Bowditch, and how he basically taught himself everything, including high level mathematics. We will be who we are meant to be.

[LibraryLover]

My Dh is a scientist (published, & has worked on some very high profile projects), and he's convinced that children who learn to love learning and find a passion in their own time, will be whatever they wish to be. He's convinced that excitement about learning is where it's at. You can't push a kid to be something in particular, but you can support, respect, and nurture their interests.

 

Unschooling doesn't mean doing squat, btw.

[angela in ohio]

Oddly enough, all of the unschooled children I know are in fact going into the arts.

 

As to your questions, I think a lot depends on what kind of unschooler we're talking about. :001_smile:

[kalanamak]

I My husband is a scientist and is convinced that a kid that is late in the area of math will not be prepared for calculus or a field of science. Any thought?

 

The last math I took was 9th grade geometry. The last science I took was 10 grade "survey of the animal kingdom". I dropped out in 11th grade. While I wasn't ready for med school at 20, like my ex was, I did go to med school.

 

A motivated human of normal IQ can learn just about anything.

[lgm]

My husband is a scientist and is convinced that a kid that is late in the area of math will not be prepared for calculus or a field of science. Any thought?

 

Late is relative. Rate and pace of learning the subject vary highly from person to person...it's the problem public school has in homogeneous classrooms. There are plenty of U's that offer compacted high school math classes that can catch an older student up painlessly in summer session.

 

Erik Demaine is probably the most famous recent unschooler in science:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/15/science/15origami.html?ei=5088&en=0ab5cef247c1e33b&ex=1266296400&partner=rssnyt&pagewanted=all&position=

 

 

http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474976717851

 

but there are others who went to school for the handwriting practice and social scene while doing their real education on their own time.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Oddly enough, all of the unschooled children I know are in fact going into the arts.

 

 

Same here.

In fact, when we got Lial's algebra for my then 10yo, those unschooling moms shuddered at the sight of the book. One even said "I'm so glad we dont have to teach that"

 

I've gotten the impression that they (the moms) unschooled so they could get away from math and avoid higher level math. One child in particular showed a lot of interest in math as a youngster, but now as a teen, he stays away. He's heard his mom complain about math so much he's lost interest.

[Ellie]

Of course. At the point when the unschooler decides that's what he wants to do, he does what it takes to do that, even if it looks like school.

[nmoira]

Of course. At the point when the unschooler decides that's what he wants to do, he does what it takes to do that, even if it looks like school.

This is my experience with both unschoolers and freeschoolers.

[Denise in Florida]

The comment about being 'late' or 'behind' would make no sense to an unschooling family, as they are not trying to follow some kind of schedule, and doing a bit of everything each year is only one option for learning.

 

:lol: I left that out of my response, but my first thought was "what do mean 'late'?" You learn starting from wherever you are at the time. There really isn't a late or early. The 'accelerated' learner concept makes me smile too. No kid is 'on pace' across the board, except that Norm kid I keep hearing about.

[Denise in Florida]

Same here.

In fact, when we got Lial's algebra for my then 10yo, those unschooling moms shuddered at the sight of the book. One even said "I'm so glad we dont have to teach that"

 

I've gotten the impression that they (the moms) unschooled so they could get away from math and avoid higher level math. One child in particular showed a lot of interest in math as a youngster, but now as a teen, he stays away. He's heard his mom complain about math so much he's lost interest.

 

Eeeck. No, no, no. I'm sure there are unschool moms who hope they can avoid their least favorite subject (I may have tried once or twice) :001_smile:. I have found, however, that following my kids interests has really kept me on my toes. I did have to find outside sources for the math girl after a certain point in high school, and I am searching for an Italian or Russian speaker to help dd2, but you don't have to teach every personally in order for your child to learn it.

[LibraryLover]

If you know an unschooler freaking over anything their children want to do, then you are not looking at true unschoolers.

 

Unschoolers help and support their children. I don't doubt that lazy -assed people hide behind the unschooling label. But the unschoolers I know assist their children every which way they can.

 

There is unschooling and then there is unparenting.

[tdeveson]

The last math I took was 9th grade geometry. The last science I took was 10 grade "survey of the animal kingdom". I dropped out in 11th grade. While I wasn't ready for med school at 20, like my ex was, I did go to med school.

 

Did you graduate?

 

Seriously, just getting into medical school after dropping out of high school is a huge accomplishment.

[Peela]

UNschooling is not NOschooling. It is simply child led. If the child WANTS to be a scientist or mathematician, they have the freedom to do it. Of course you can catch up.

I have heard many stories of unschooled kids going on to do amazing things.

[kalanamak]

Did you graduate?

 

Seriously, just getting into medical school after dropping out of high school is a huge accomplishment.

 

An experienced HS teacher mentioned to me that there were two kinds of dropouts: the stereotypical one, and then there were the ones who were bored out of their brains. I read Freud when I was 10, and Flaubert at 14. No, I didn't graduate, and never took an SAT or ACT. I got into a (public) college by tromping up to the dean's office and writing an essay in his waiting room.

 

To put myself through school, I first went to a Vo-Tec. My teacher (a very traditional man, in a class of all males but me) said "Getting a job is like getting a girl: go hat in hand, and look like you aim to please." That was how I got into college.

 

I did do 7.5 years of undergrad, and I considered the first 4 years of it just making up for the education I didn't get as a teen. I did 4 years of general Liberal Arts, a year of psychology, and then all the pre-med reqs. in 5 semesters and two summer schools. Ugh.

 

But, getting back to the OP, I had math phobia and was a "victim" of New Math. I hated drawing the stupid brackets for all the sets. When I was 21 I enrolled in Algebra at a community college and had the luck to have a very good teacher who was drop dead handsome. I didn't peel my eyes off of him, and suddenly math clicked. Then I had the bit in my teeth and went to teacher after teacher to get into courses I didn't have the reqs for. I would spend each break before a quarter reading everything I needed to know as a pre-req AND the text for the class. I did it for years. That is what I mean by the motivated student.

[WishboneDawn]

My husband is a scientist and is convinced that a kid that is late in the area of math will not be prepared for calculus or a field of science. Any thought?

 

I guess this would be a concern if once you turned a certain age your brain became incapable of learning any new math or there was some sort of expiry date on higher learning where you had to choose to be a mathematician or scientist by the age of 20 or else you were out of luck.

 

Otherwise, it just doesn't make sense. A person can pursue calculus or science at ANY point in their life, right? I did miserably in math and came out of high school unprepared for calculus or science but if I decided at any point to get my butt in gear and pursue them, I certainly could, right?

 

I think the whole idea that you have to have it all learned by a certain time or you're doomed in some sense is a VERY schooly idea and you don't have to be an unschooler to see the fault in it.

[LibraryLover]

I think the whole idea that you have to have it all learned by a certain time or you're doomed in some sense is a VERY schooly idea and you don't have to be an unschooler to see the fault in it.

 

Yes. This is what my dh sees frequently. He's known too many young kids burned out on chemistry, biology etc. Some of them went into the sciences because they 'were smart', and it was expected. Some are completely immature/ not ready, and didn't think through what they really wanted to do in college. (And have gazillions of dollars in loans to prove it). The older, more mature students are much better situated to find work and courses they know they care about.

 

He is the one who always saying to let them be, let them love learning, let them read, let them have the time they need to explore what is out there! The time when a 7 year old needs to be sent off to learn a trade or become a knight a is long gone. lol :lol:

[Renee in NC]

An experienced HS teacher mentioned to me that there were two kinds of dropouts: the stereotypical one, and then there were the ones who were bored out of their brains. I read Freud when I was 10, and Flaubert at 14. No, I didn't graduate, and never took an SAT or ACT. I got into a (public) college by tromping up to the dean's office and writing an essay in his waiting room.

 

 

 

I was one of those dropouts, too. My guidance counselor told me to drop out and go to college. I did.:D

[cathmom]

I was one of those dropouts, too. My guidance counselor told me to drop out and go to college. I did.:D

 

My high school principal, at a meeting to determine why I had missed nearly 100 days my first 3 years of high school, told my parents that I should just go to college, so I did!

[LibraryLover]

My high school principal, at a meeting to determine why I had missed nearly 100 days my first 3 years of high school, told my parents that I should just go to college, so I did!

 

 

I get very frustrated with some of the 'work' I see young people having to do. If a person has something they need to do, no matter their age, let them do it, already!

 

So much wasted time and frustration!

[forty-two]

I guess this would be a concern if once you turned a certain age your brain became incapable of learning any new math or there was some sort of expiry date on higher learning where you had to choose to be a mathematician or scientist by the age of 20 or else you were out of luck.

 

I have read that, with regard to math, the 20s are the peak time - your brain will never work at that level again. So to be a mathematician of note - to make the really great discoveries - you need to be through all the pre-reqs and into your research by your mid-20s at the latest to maximize your time and chances to discover something. Not that brilliant people haven't made discoveries in their 30s and later, but that, however good their brains work in their 30s and beyond, their brains were still better in their 20s, and their best work was done then. And that most aspiring mathematicians aren't *that* brilliant, and need every advantage they can get - including as early a start as possible - to discover something important.

 

I admit, that depresses me a bit - I have a long-held dream from childhood of maybe, possibly doing something of note in math. Sure, it probably would never happen, but I could always dream about doing it in the future. But to think that at 28 I'm probably too old, esp given all the math I need to learn to get to the point of even having a chance, pretty much kills it. Not only do I have to be brilliant enough to discover something new, I have to be extra brilliant to do it when I'm past my prime. I'm not giving up on my math studies or anything, but reality is kinda extra sobering there.

[mo2]

No offense to your dh, but I think he's wrong. I think it depends more on the area of the child's interest rather than what type of schooling they receive. Anyone can learn anything...if they want to.

[WishboneDawn]

I have read that, with regard to math, the 20s are the peak time - your brain will never work at that level again. So to be a mathematician of note - to make the really great discoveries - you need to be through all the pre-reqs and into your research by your mid-20s at the latest to maximize your time and chances to discover something. Not that brilliant people haven't made discoveries in their 30s and later, but that, however good their brains work in their 30s and beyond, their brains were still better in their 20s, and their best work was done then. And that most aspiring mathematicians aren't *that* brilliant, and need every advantage they can get - including as early a start as possible - to discover something important.

 

 

Seriously, you could drive yourself crazy with this kind of reasoning. In infancy and early childhood kids are probably at their lifetime peak in terms of learning things in a scientific manner, exploring cause and effect, constant scientific experiments...If our children aren't winning Nobel prizes by the age of 4 should we despair and give up science education? :D

 

Also, that's simply one variable and where is the data on how much that truly influences a mathematician's career or not? Someone may very well be at the peak of their mathematical reasoning but not be a great or even decent mathematician because they don't have the experience, maturity, discipline, interest, community, etc. to make that possible.

 

Lastly, where that came from, if it's factual it's still very likely a generality and generalities are of limited use when we're talking about our very specific children. Not everyone's development progresses at the same rate. Some brains may perform wonderfully in regards to math in a person's 20's while the next person's may not peak for a another decade or the other guy's crested when he was a teenager. But we don't know what the case will be for our own kids so we'd do better to pay attention to factors we do know something about like discipline, interest and maturity.

 

Wait, THIS is lastly - besides, I'm not in this parenting game to produce the next great mathematician. I'm in it to produce good, healthy and content adults. If they happen to make a breakthrough in physics when they grow up, fine, but if I make Nobel prizes the focal point of my homeschool and parenting planning I KNOW I'll be setting myself and my kids up for disaster.

[IsabelC]

besides, I'm not in this parenting game to produce the next great mathematician. I'm in it to produce good, healthy and content adults. If they happen to make a breakthrough in physics when they grow up, fine, but if I make Nobel prizes the focal point of my homeschool and parenting planning I KNOW I'll be setting myself and my kids up for disaster.

Hear hear!

[kalanamak]

 

Wait, THIS is lastly - besides, I'm not in this parenting game to produce the next great mathematician.

 

From my reading, world class mathematicians are not stoppable. With adequate nutrition and some structure of education that recognizes biological genius, they blossom. Ditto musicians.

[kiana]

I have read that, with regard to math, the 20s are the peak time - your brain will never work at that level again. So to be a mathematician of note - to make the really great discoveries - you need to be through all the pre-reqs and into your research by your mid-20s at the latest to maximize your time and chances to discover something. Not that brilliant people haven't made discoveries in their 30s and later, but that, however good their brains work in their 30s and beyond, their brains were still better in their 20s, and their best work was done then. And that most aspiring mathematicians aren't *that* brilliant, and need every advantage they can get - including as early a start as possible - to discover something important.

 

I admit, that depresses me a bit - I have a long-held dream from childhood of maybe, possibly doing something of note in math. Sure, it probably would never happen, but I could always dream about doing it in the future. But to think that at 28 I'm probably too old, esp given all the math I need to learn to get to the point of even having a chance, pretty much kills it. Not only do I have to be brilliant enough to discover something new, I have to be extra brilliant to do it when I'm past my prime. I'm not giving up on my math studies or anything, but reality is kinda extra sobering there.

 

There's always Grigori Perelman :D 40 years old, and the Poincare conjecture! You've got 12 years to go!

 

(P.S. Did you realise your age is a perfect number? :):)

[stripe]

I think math & science take a great deal of perseverance and pushing through what's difficult, and the human tendency is to go for the easier path.

 

That being said, there are certainly complete math and science geniuses who have done everything themselves, from Ramanujan to William Kamkwamba.

 

But I think for the more normal person to push through all that takes a bit of assistance, encouragement, and a good teacher. Let's face it: it's easier to just quit and say "I'm not good at math" than keep at it.

[Guest Nepali]

Does anyone have concrete statistics conceding

the number of unschoolers able to proceed to

careers in the sciences? I teach university level

mathematics and doubt that more than the

exceptional few could make the leap from

casual study of mathematics via building

Lego blocks or working on a farm to college

level mathematics. I've taught thousands of

students in my career and I rarely find

students able to overcome deficiencies

in early mathematical development. I have

seen exceptions but I doubt anyone can

dispute the general rule that lack of any

disciplined mathematical or scientific training

will exclude a person from a technical career.

 

It really seems there are almost no unschoolers

progressing into science careers. The largest

support for assuming students can "learn mathematics"

if they need to seems to come from parents

who clearly have no mathematical education

beyond high school. Although I have a Phd

in mathematics I can assure you I would

have never gotten beyond arithmetic had

there not been some measure of coersion.

 

I'd like to have an open mind on this area

but I really have not seen a single argument

from a professional with a scientific background

that suggests more a rare few could suceed

in the sciences. Since our society can only

employ so many writers and artists, parents are

clearly dooming their children to a very challenging

job market.

 

Some homeschoolers maintain they are

teaching their children mathematics and science

by experiential activities. But this is a pretty

well established curricular trend in education.

I question whether these parents have a clue

what really goes on in a classroom setting

[WishboneDawn]

My husband is a scientist and is convinced that a kid that is late in the area of math will not be prepared for calculus or a field of science. Any thought?

 

I think you're husband needs to take a look at the assumptions in his thinking.

 

First, that unschoolers would not encounter calculus. It happens. Some unschoolers are math geeks.

 

Second that a person can be too late to pursue calculus or science. What age is that? 19? 23? 34 and 4 months? Honestly, if an unschooled person decides they want to pursue science and aren't prepared for it they can decide, at any time, to prepare for it. I don't think universities look for "best before" dates. :)

[WishboneDawn]

D'oh! Didn't notice how old this thread was. I even replied here before.