S/O regarding submissive wives for non-Christians.

[Firefly]

Yes, that may be the 'biblical' principle of it, but the OP was addressing submission and NON-christians. The way THIS non-christian views it, submission is about male emotional and physical domination over a woman. IMO, that equals oppressive male and weak woman. From the outside, looking in, that is how "submission" appears to me.

 

Agreed. I don't believe DH gets to make final decisions for the family just for having a p$nis. :001_huh:

[swimmermom3]

The bolded part describes my feelings also. However, it wouldn't be accurate to say our marriage isn't based on Christian principles, even I can no longer call myself a Christian, since both dh and I were raised Catholic and had instilled in us the belief in the sanctity of marriage. Even though my theology has done a 180, I still have very strong feelings about marriage and they come from my upbringing, and faith was a big part of that.

 

When we married, we spent many hours discussing what we believed about marriage. We both agreed that we would eventually end up letting the other one down somehow, simply because we're human. You can argue original sin and all that, but whatever the cause, humans tend to fail occasionally. We both felt we were 100% committed to marriage, or as Catholics, to the Sacrament of Marriage. When dh failed me, or I failed him, we were still committed to the marriage. Of course, if both spouses aren't committed to the marriage, it isn't going to work. It takes two. Fortunately, nothing so major ever happened that I felt I could no longer be committed to the marriage. The few times that things were very rough in our marriage, I always came back to being committed to the marriage and it kept me going forward. It is also that belief that helps me back off when I need to, and helps dh to step down when he needs to. So there are Christian principles involved in our marraige along with what I consider a lot of common sense.

 

Janet

(Janet, sorry, I messed up your quote, Lisa)

 

I'm going to have to think about what you said-the part that is in bold. I was raised in the Catholic church and my husband is the son of Presbyterian missionaries. Faith and marriage are strong commitments on both sides for our families. I am sure this has an impact on our marriage.

I've got some cleaning and thinking to do. Thanks again, Janet.

Edited July 11, 2009 by swimmermom3
Messed up editing a quote

[KingM]

I had to ask my dh (his memory is much better than mine) if in the 20 years we've been married, he could remember a serious decision that required a leader stepping forward. He couldn't.

 

Yes, when there's a decision that has to be made and we're having a hard time reaching that decision. Sometimes, someone has to just say, "I feel really strongly about this. Just how serious is your objection?"

 

This is rare, however, and the decision maker may or may not have a Y chromosome.

[swimmermom3]

Yes, when there's a decision that has to be made and we're having a hard time reaching that decision. Sometimes, someone has to just say, "I feel really strongly about this. Just how serious is your objection?"

 

This is rare, however, and the decision maker may or may not have a Y chromosome.

 

Perhaps it does come down to semantics for me. What you've just described would be part of our decision making process. I guess when we defer to the spouse with more expertise/information/investment, a leader does step forward. What I can't envision is standing toe to toe with a line drawn down the middle, then having a third party declare dh as the winner because he's a guy.

[Rosie_0801]

Why is the final decision the husband's?

At our place it isn't. The final decision is made by the person who cares most. Usually that's me because I'm the tetchy one with ideas and he's the chilled out and agreeable one who cruises along and doesn't go looking for radical ideas. Ultimately, though, if he wants to pull rank on me (and he can because he has the power of income, which is very real though he doesn't like to think of it that way,) he'll get right of way 99.9% of the time. There are a few issues where I'll be prepared to fight to the bitter end, lol, but not many. There's very few issues he's prepared to pull rank on me over too.

 

He was brought up with the idea that conflict is bad, has passive aggressive parents, was the peacemaker at home and took the "honour thy mother and father" business further than he ought to have as a youth, which stunted his ability to grow up in that area. I know quite well I could browbeat him into almost anything, but I don't want a wimp so I don't take advantage of that. I had someone once tell me I was silly to be supporting him in developing his "inner orc" as he calls it, because it's better to keep control. Personally I think that is incredibly stupid. Firstly, I'm supposed to care about this guy and that means assisting with character development as he does for me. Secondly, why would I want to mould him into a pathetic worm? What am I going to get out of that? :confused: I don't want to be one of those women who jokes about how they have x many kids and one of them is their husband. Dh is naturally inclined to act that way, thanks to family of origin programming, and it's no good for any of us.

Dh went to pre-marriage counselling back when he was Christian with his first girlfriend because she wanted a good Christian head of the household man, and he wanted a more equal partnership. He's away for the weekend, but I intend to show him the submission link Nakia (it was Nakia, wasn't it?) posted and see what he has to say.

 

 

Yes, that may be the 'biblical' principle of it, but the OP was addressing submission and NON-christians. The way THIS non-christian views it, submission is about male emotional and physical domination over a woman. IMO, that equals oppressive male and weak woman. From the outside, looking in, that is how "submission" appears to me.

Did you read the link in the other thread? That version sounds a lot more palatable :) I hate it when the so called experts make out that behaving like an ideal wife (read doormat) is going to miraculously make your hubby want to pick up after himself. That's not what they were saying in that link. Thank goodness. I've never been able to understand how it could be my responsibility if dh leaves hair in the bottom of the shower.

 

Rosie

[KingM]

Perhaps it does come down to semantics for me. What you've just described would be part of our decision making process. I guess when we defer to the spouse with more expertise/information/investment, a leader does step forward. What I can't envision is standing toe to toe with a line drawn down the middle, then having a third party declare dh as the winner because he's a guy.

 

Yes, I agree. I can imagine why some men would like this arrangement. What I don't understand is why so many women work so hard to preserve patriarchy.

[Audrey]

Wow. I never thought of myself as weak or insecure and I guarantee you my husband has pretty good self-esteem. If you read any of the responses on the other thread about submission - it isn't that the husband gets his own way and the wife bows down to his superior wisdom. That isn't even a biblical example. It's that a husband honors his wife and she honors him in return. I hate the word submission because it brings up exactly the response above. I am a perfectly capable woman who runs this household - dh does bring home the paycheck, but I'm the one who pays the bills, makes sure things are invested wisely, arrange for repairs if needed, dr. visits, etc. DH has his own responsibilities within the marriage - when he's not deployed. However, I respect his wishes and desires. I take his advice when he offers it, I value and honor his input. I try very hard to make this a home he is glad to come home to because I love him and respect him. There's not the thought anywhere that he's better than I am or superior to me. And I would say we have a very scripturaly based marriage. Surely you've heard of the Prov. 31 woman - the verse about a woman of noble character is also translated as a woman of courage. I like that translation much better and feel it's much more accurate in my case.

 

Well, as I said before, the OP specifically asked for NON-christian interpretations of what "submission" means. What I said, IS what it means to me. I don't read the threads on christian submission much, if at all and I have no idea what the Prov. 31 woman is. That's not where I look for advice.

 

What you describe isn't how I view submission, even if it is how you might view it. I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. I'm glad your marriage works for you. Ours works for us, too. :D

Edited July 11, 2009 by Audrey

[HRAAB]

Yes, I agree. I can imagine why some men would like this arrangement. What I don't understand is why so many women work so hard to preserve patriarchy.

 

This is the question I have also. I was part of a very conservative, Christian homeschooling group. In many instances it was the women who were pushing wifely submission. Sometimes they would ask for prayers for their dh's to accept their role as the head of the family because the dh's weren't too keen with idea. I sometimes felt the women made more of it than the men. Maybe that has more to do with how women live out their spirituality or religion as opposed to how men do. Also, there seemed to be peer pressure in the group to live a certain way. I know I certainly felt the peer pressure. I dunno - it's interesting.

 

Janet

[swimmermom3]

Yes, I agree. I can imagine why some men would like this arrangement. What I don't understand is why so many women work so hard to preserve patriarchy.

 

I don't have an answer for you on that one. You could ask that on one of the submission threads. I do know that no one in our home has the patience to wait for the "right" person to do the job. I do however, as a woman, highly recommend waiting for your dh to come home to move an old-fashioned sofa-bed out of the house to the curb for Goodwill pickup. A house with a sofa-bed sticking out the front door while it's raining tends to draw the curious and the bored.:tongue_smilie:

[Audrey]

 

 

 

Did you read the link in the other thread? That version sounds a lot more palatable :) I hate it when the so called experts make out that behaving like an ideal wife (read doormat) is going to miraculously make your hubby want to pick up after himself. That's not what they were saying in that link. Thank goodness. I've never been able to understand how it could be my responsibility if dh leaves hair in the bottom of the shower.

 

Rosie

 

 

No I didn't, Rosie. I don't go wading in threads like that usually. They have no relevance for me. Can you repost the link here? I'll trust your assessment of it and take a look, too. :001_smile:

[KingM]

I don't have an answer for you on that one. You could ask that on one of the submission threads.

 

I tend to make conservatives very angry, so maybe I won't ask that question just now. Blessed are the peacemakers and all of that. :)

[Rosie_0801]

No I didn't, Rosie. I don't go wading in threads like that usually. They have no relevance for me. Can you repost the link here? I'll trust your assessment of it and take a look, too. :001_smile:

 

I'm flattered :) http://www.fiarhq.com/~gbprnhrz/forum/showthread.php?t=58964&highlight=submission I will admit my eyes glazed over the bible quotes and whatnot, but the actual crux of the matter seemed pretty sensible to me and I was glad to find that doormat wasn't what submission was supposed to mean. Marriage a la Taliban-style is not my cup of tea either. I'll be interested to hear your opinion. I kind of like reading that sort of stuff. It's a whole new world for me! (One I'm glad to be experiencing via a computer screen and not real life.)

 

I'll be even more interested to hear dh's opinion when he reads it, considering he went through Christian pre-marriage counselling once. He is definitely the type Ishki was describing, with no desire to play Boss of Everything around here. Who wants to be responsible for everything?

 

Rosie

[TravelingChris]

We are Christians but I think the only thing my dh wants submission is on how tidy or uncluttered things should be. THat is because he is more tidy than me and doesn't like it cluttered. I don't mind as much though I do like uncluttered places too. If we have a problem about this, it is usually because one of us is in a bad mood completely unrelated to tidiness. On the other hand, I have seen and heard people express ideas like submission means the man is in charge of everything. Well he isn't, doesn't want to be, doesn't have the expertise or the time. I am the economics major and I am in charge of finances. I know more about healthcare so I am in charge of that. WE agree on things like church selection, house selection, etc. Neither gets to overrule the other and those things we have to have agreement. I know some Christians have other views but that is one reason we make sure we attend churches with more liberal attitudes about this. THat means we attend a church where only men are pastors, elders and deacons but women have very important other roles such as heads of important committees, they read scripture in front of the congregation, and in no way do I feel second class. One reason is that even though I can't be an elder there because I am female, I couldn't nor could my husband because we are transients as my name says. I go more with the Dr. Laura explanation anyway and she isn't a Christian. WE should both be doing nice things for each other.

[swimmermom3]

I tend to make conservatives very angry, so maybe I won't ask that question just now. Blessed are the peacemakers and all of that. :)

 

Ouch! I just saw the other thread. I think you've been banned from the playground.:001_huh: Maybe we could get Spy Car to ask the question.

[Melinda in VT]

Wow. I never thought of myself as weak or insecure and I guarantee you my husband has pretty good self-esteem. If you read any of the responses on the other thread about submission - it isn't that the husband gets his own way and the wife bows down to his superior wisdom. That isn't even a biblical example. It's that a husband honors his wife and she honors him in return. I hate the word submission because it brings up exactly the response above. I am a perfectly capable woman who runs this household - dh does bring home the paycheck, but I'm the one who pays the bills, makes sure things are invested wisely, arrange for repairs if needed, dr. visits, etc. DH has his own responsibilities within the marriage - when he's not deployed. However, I respect his wishes and desires. I take his advice when he offers it, I value and honor his input. I try very hard to make this a home he is glad to come home to because I love him and respect him. There's not the thought anywhere that he's better than I am or superior to me. And I would say we have a very scripturaly based marriage. Surely you've heard of the Prov. 31 woman - the verse about a woman of noble character is also translated as a woman of courage. I like that translation much better and feel it's much more accurate in my case.

 

I find it interesting that you bring up the Proverbs 31 woman in this discussion. I just went and re-read Proverbs 31, and I don't see any evidence that she is a submissive wife. She is extremely capable, and her husband is pleased with her, but I don't see any mention of her deferring to her husband's counsel or decisions.

[OnTheBrink]

You know, sometimes the husband's "final decision" is to defer to the wife, who may be more wise and have more knowledge on the subject in question. I know of many marriages where the husband has gone with the wife's feelings on some decision to be made because he trusted her (not so he could blame her later if the situation had a negative ending).

 

Just thought I'd throw that out there. ;)

[swimmermom3]

I find it interesting that you bring up the Proverbs 31 woman in this discussion. I just went and re-read Proverbs 31, and I don't see any evidence that she is a submissive wife. She is extremely capable, and her husband is pleased with her, but I don't see any mention of her deferring to her husband's counsel or decisions.

 

I think by extension, because she is afraid of the Lord.

[swimmermom3]

You know, sometimes the husband's "final decision" is to defer to the wife, who may be more wise and have more knowledge on the subject in question. I know of many marriages where the husband has gone with the wife's feelings on some decision to be made because he trusted her (not so he could blame her later if the situation had a negative ending).

 

Just thought I'd throw that out there. ;)

 

Thanks for throwing that out there. That makes sense. What I take away from this thread is that strong marriages look remarkably similar whether the motivation to keep them strong is Biblically-based or otherwise. It still takes mutual love, respect, and trust to make things work.

[LizzyBee]

Yes, I agree. I can imagine why some men would like this arrangement. What I don't understand is why so many women work so hard to preserve patriarchy.

 

I'll bite. "This arrangement" includes a man loving his wife as Christ loves the Church. How does Christ love the Church? He humbled Himself to come to earth as a mere human and allowed Himself to be beaten and crucified for her. A man who follows Christ's example will always put the well-being of his wife ahead of his own. What woman wouldn't want a husband who loves her like that? I always (jokingly) tell my dh that he has a much harder job than me - I have to respect him, but he has to LOVE me, and I am not always an easy person to love or live with. :001_smile:

 

On my part, submission (as described in the Bible) means that I am to put aside my selfishness and put my dh's well-being ahead of my own. It does NOT mean that I don't manage anything or that I don't make decisions about anything. There is no (Biblical) requirement that my dh micromanages the household. There is no (Biblical) requirement that a wife and mother not own a business or earn an income.

 

When you see a man who tells his wife that she has to do what he says because she's supposed to submit, um, he's NOT following the Biblical pattern or mandates for marriage. The Greek word translated submit means to voluntarily place oneself under. If a man demands submission, the submission he gets is not voluntary and therefore not Biblical. The Bible tells men to love, not dominate, their wives.

[BlsdMama]

I find it interesting that you bring up the Proverbs 31 woman in this discussion. I just went and re-read Proverbs 31, and I don't see any evidence that she is a submissive wife. She is extremely capable, and her husband is pleased with her, but I don't see any mention of her deferring to her husband's counsel or decisions.

 

LOL. So are you saying submissive equals incompetent or unsure?

 

The reason I ask is because after I first got saved I really looked into what a "good" Christian wife was "supposed" to be... And I THOUGHT it meant that a good Christian wife is not only who defers to her husband but asks him about the most minute questions, bowing and scraping, consulting him on lint in the dryer and whatnot.

 

Truth be told, we all have very different husbands. And what they may be looking for in a wife is entirely different. My DH did NOT like being consulted on everything. If I feel like meatloaf tomorrow night, it annoys him to say, "Honey, what would you like for supper?" "Doesn't matter." "No, really, would you rather have x or y or z." Um, he really DOESN'T care. He'd just like to eat. :P

 

Submission means a willing service to the person you're married to. A wife should be someone you can trust. Trust to school the children, trust to raise the babies, trust to care for the home, trust in financial matters. The Proverbs 31 woman considered a field and bought it. This is obviously an area in their particular marriage that the husband had left her responsible for. It doesn't say that she consulted him but that she considered it. I'm sure she made what she thought was a wise financial investment and he was probably proud of her. I bought our last two cars. My DH hates dealing with car people. Eight years ago I would have INSISTED that he do it, because that's a "man's" realm and I would have felt "insubordinate" doing this like I wasn't a good Christian wife. Then I figured out that submission is unique to every marriage - every husband/wife couple. By insisting he do that, I would have been unsubmissive. ;) How's that for irony?

 

Submission isn't simply bowing and scraping. It's willingly serving. A husband can't demand submission. It is a gift given by a wife, through her faith in God, as willing service to show her respect for authority (of God and husband as head of household) and her love and willingness to serve.

 

My children are allowed to respectfully appeal to me. I am allowed to respectfully to appeal to him even if he appears to have made a decision. I am not going to whine and pout (well, when I'm being good) about something I didn't "win." I make most choices without his input - I handle most of the budget, the bills, the homeschooling, homeschooling material decisions. These are things he has placed in my sphere of authority.

 

The Proverbs 31 woman is the PERFECT example of submission. She has things brought into her sphere of authority and she adeptly handles them so that her husband will not be shamed and so that he has full trust and faith in her abilities.

 

That said, I fully believe in stereotypical roles. My husband works 50-60 hours a week. He's absolutely committed to providing for his family and for giving his best all the time - at home or at work. I do NOT want him to come home to a destroyed house, or no dinner, or wake up in the AM and find out there is no clean underwear or whoops! We ran out of toilet paper. ;) I like laying out his clothes, ironing his shirts, getting up at 5AM and making his coffee, and packing his lunch. I like doing these things because in terms of Love Languages, they are acts of service - definitely one of his love languages. He gives to us everytime he goes off to work and at night when he comes home. Should he have to clean the house when he comes home? Make supper? That seems crazy to me. My sphere of authority is our home and it is a trust issue that I manage it correctly so that **I** can sit down and put my feet up too at night. ;)

 

I wish ya'all could see healthy submission / serving in action. It's a beautiful thing and I'm very thankful I have a husband who is incredible and I WANT to actively love and serve. And I'm very grateful to God for showing me the way. Because my only example up to adulthood had been my parent's marriage where my mom told my dad if he could jump, when he could jump, and how high he could jump. And woe to him if he made any plans to jump that didn't have previous consultation and approval. And it's not okay. And it's not pretty. And she's missing out on what a marriage truly could be... a really amazing thing where each spouse works really hard to serve - because I love God and because we love each other, not because it's DEMANDED of me.

[ereks mom]

I think a lot of us hear the word "submission" and get an image that is not actually what people mean when they talk about it. Maybe it would help if we had a different word!

 

I think people think submission means bowing down to someone else. That is definitely NOT accurate.

[ereks mom]

Why is the final decision the husband's?

 

...in a Christian home, the man is supposed to be the spiritual leader of his family. The spirtual well-being of his family is his responsibility, so he is held accountable for it.

[Melinda in VT]

LOL. So are you saying submissive equals incompetent or unsure?

 

Neither. :confused:

 

I am just saying that it seems odd to talk about the Proverbs 31 woman in a discussion of submissiveness.

 

Submission means a willing service to the person you're married to.

 

I think both partners in a marriage should willingly serve their spouse. However, this does not match what I understand the word "submission" to mean in English.

[Lovedtodeath]

Janet, you have expressed everything beautifully. I feel comfortable leaving this thread in your hands. :)

[kalanamak]

I change the word "submission" to what my ideal of a marriage is (I swiped it from the commies, and I do not think it would work for human societies because of what humans are, biologically speaking): From each, as they are able; to each, as they need.

 

I think I mean "a generous spirit".

 

My parents got on very well. I noticed that they constantly did things FOR each other. Mommy made sweet potato for Papa when the rest of us got regular potato. Daddy got the garden turned over good and early for her planting. Mommy made beautiful sweaters for all of us to wear, Daddy hopped right on it when a bike malfunctioned and needed him to repair it. Mommy got up extra early to get his breakfast, and he came home during his PhD years to cuddle the kids and get them to bed and THEN went back to the office to work on his thesis.

 

I have often wondered if I grew up in a dream, and it has made me unfit for marriage today. My ex, whom I loved beyond words, who I made lunch for, who I kept a beautiful garden and house for, grew nothing but contempt for me, and I hear that the canny woman he now pursues refuses to marry him, but pulls along the string that his desperate cat-paws rush after to catch. It is a game I do not have the talent to play, even if I did not think it infra dig.

[Melinda in VT]

I think people think submission means bowing down to someone else. That is definitely NOT accurate.

 

Well, but see, that *is* pretty much what the English word "submit" means.

 

This is from Dictionary.com:

 

sub⋅mit

  /səbˈmɪt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [suhb-mit] Show IPA verb, -mit⋅ted, -mit⋅ting.

Use submit in a Sentence

–verb (used with object)

1. to give over or yield to the power or authority of another (often used reflexively).

2. to subject to some kind of treatment or influence.

3. to present for the approval, consideration, or decision of another or others: to submit a plan; to submit an application.

4. to state or urge with deference; suggest or propose (usually fol. by a clause): I submit that full proof should be required.

–verb (used without object)

5. to yield oneself to the power or authority of another: to submit to a conqueror.

6. to allow oneself to be subjected to some kind of treatment: to submit to chemotherapy.

7. to defer to another's judgment, opinion, decision, etc.: I submit to your superior judgment.

 

Which of these definitions of "submit" fit what you are talking about?

 

(And to clarify tone--I'm not trying to be angry or combative. I'm just trying to understand. Because there does seem to be a lack of agreement on terms here.)

[Peek a Boo]

Yes, I agree. I can imagine why some men would like this arrangement. What I don't understand is why so many women work so hard to preserve patriarchy.

 

because it's not patriarchy that they are trying to preserve.:D

[Holly IN]

I didn't read any posts!! So not sure how I will be taken.

 

My dh and I believe that part of scripture is ignore. The one about wives to submit to their dh...well the scripture above that one is ignored!! The one that says that Christians are to submit to each other.

 

Dh and I's belief is we are Christians FIRST!! then we are husband and wife. However husband and wife is ONE PERSON!!

 

Let me give you an example:

 

We just got back from vacation. Monday I drove most of the way to Branson. One of the pitstops, my dh was getting nervous about me pulling out on an intersection. I turned around and told him to SHUT UP. I pulled out safely and was fine then got onto the interstate. I turned around and apologized to my dh about that. He said that it was okay. He was very proud of me for taking control of the situation. He realized at that point he was distracting me from my job as a driver. No problem there. He apologized for making my job harder by being that way. He was very proud of me...he told me so. I felt bad though because I did it in front of the kids. He said no that is not true. He told me that it is the way it is supposed to be. So this situation is what the scripture teachers. We are ONE!! There is no two people in a marriage. This is where a lot of people get messed up. ONE PERSON!! This is the key to marriage. When you think of yourself as one person with your spouse things go smoothier (sorry for the lack of proper word here)

 

Just my 2 cents! Take it or leave it;)

[Peek a Boo]

Well, but see, that *is* pretty much what the English word "submit" means.

 

This is from Dictionary.com:

 

sub⋅mit

  /səbˈmɪt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [suhb-mit] Show IPA verb, -mit⋅ted, -mit⋅ting.

Use submit in a Sentence

–verb (used with object)

1. to give over or yield to the power or authority of another (often used reflexively).

2. to subject to some kind of treatment or influence.

3. to present for the approval, consideration, or decision of another or others: to submit a plan; to submit an application.

4. to state or urge with deference; suggest or propose (usually fol. by a clause): I submit that full proof should be required.

–verb (used without object)

5. to yield oneself to the power or authority of another: to submit to a conqueror.

6. to allow oneself to be subjected to some kind of treatment: to submit to chemotherapy.

7. to defer to another's judgment, opinion, decision, etc.: I submit to your superior judgment.

 

Which of these definitions of "submit" fit what you are talking about?

 

 

 

I don't think it's so much *submit* that needs to be defined as it is *to whom* we are submitting. Many people see authority and assume a master/slave relationship. someone already pointed out the Greek and voluntary component. I'm game for using another word. ;)

 

I'm an m-w.com gal ;)

 

1 a (1): a citation (as from a book or file) used in defense or support (2): the source from which the citation is drawn b (1): a conclusive statement or set of statements (as an official decision of a court) (2): a decision taken as a precedent (3): testimony c: an individual cited or appealed to as an expert

2 a: power to influence or command thought, opinion, or behavior b: freedom granted by one in authority : right

3 a: persons in command ; specifically : government b: a governmental agency or corporation to administer a revenue-producing public enterprise <the transit authority>

4 a: grounds, warrant <had excellent authority for believing the claim> b: convincing force <lent authority to the performance>

 

In our gvt, people in authority can lose that authority. That can happen in secular relationships as well as Biblical relationships. Submission is not necessarily a "jump when i say" type of relationship, altho it can be. Authority does not necessarily equal control, altho some do consider them interchangeable.

 

Biblically, the Proverbs 31 passage assumes a correct understanding of submissiveness [Eph 5:21; scripture interprets scripture: no contradictions] which can include a very independent woman.

 

But secularly, i like the way Rosie put it: i WANT my spouse to be wonderful! so I help [biblical: helpmeet] to make him that way.

 

I used to have a shirt that said "I'm his because he deserves the finest!" :D

 

posting late --Holly IN nailed it ;)

[5kidsforME]

I didn't read any posts!! So not sure how I will be taken.

 

My dh and I believe that part of scripture is ignore. The one about wives to submit to their dh...well the scripture above that one is ignored!! The one that says that Christians are to submit to each other.

 

Dh and I's belief is we are Christians FIRST!! then we are husband and wife. However husband and wife is ONE PERSON!!

 

Let me give you an example:

 

We just got back from vacation. Monday I drove most of the way to Branson. One of the pitstops, my dh was getting nervous about me pulling out on an intersection. I turned around and told him to SHUT UP. I pulled out safely and was fine then got onto the interstate. I turned around and apologized to my dh about that. He said that it was okay. He was very proud of me for taking control of the situation. He realized at that point he was distracting me from my job as a driver. No problem there. He apologized for making my job harder by being that way. He was very proud of me...he told me so. I felt bad though because I did it in front of the kids. He said no that is not true. He told me that it is the way it is supposed to be. So this situation is what the scripture teachers. We are ONE!! There is no two people in a marriage. This is where a lot of people get messed up. ONE PERSON!! This is the key to marriage. When you think of yourself as one person with your spouse things go smoothier (sorry for the lack of proper word here)

 

Just my 2 cents! Take it or leave it;)

 

I think it is quite disrespectful to tell ANYONE to shut up, let alone my husband. I would be ticked if my husband told me to shut up.

[HRAAB]

Janet, you have expressed everything beautifully. I feel comfortable leaving this thread in your hands. :)

 

Gee, thank you.

 

You know though, I've got a good man. It makes it easy for me. But I have a question...

 

Now if I believed the Bible was the word of God and felt I was instructed by God to submit (honor/respect) to my dh's authority, I would need to do that whether he was the great guy I've got or whether he was demanding, overbearing, unreasonable or whatever. I mean, God's commands are His commands, even in our imperfect world? Right? Just because my dh was a jerk a lot of time wouldn't let me off the hook? Or could I refuse to follow his lead (I'm not speaking of anything immoral or sinful) because he was being a jerk? Just to clarify I don't mean if he was being abusive or having an affair, just not a pleasant person.

 

Janet

[OnTheBrink]

Gee, thank you.

 

You know though, I've got a good man. It makes it easy for me. But I have a question...

 

Now if I believed the Bible was the word of God and felt I was instructed by God to submit (honor/respect) to my dh's authority, I would need to do that whether he was the great guy I've got or whether he was demanding, overbearing, unreasonable or whatever. I mean, God's commands are His commands, even in our imperfect world? Right? Just because my dh was a jerk a lot of time wouldn't let me off the hook? Or could I refuse to follow his lead (I'm not speaking of anything immoral or sinful) because he was being a jerk? Just to clarify I don't mean if he was being abusive or having an affair, just not a pleasant person.

 

Janet

 

*treading delicately where interpretations are wide and varied*

 

In my marriage, before it was confirmed EX was cheating and he was being very emotionally cruel to me and the kids, I was encouraged to continue behaving as God instructs. HOWEVER, my pastor did move me and the kids out of the house when EX got very violent (verbally, I mean). The pastor and elders totally intervened on me and the kids' behalf for our safety. Once they were able to contact EX, they got HIM out of the house and the kids and I went home. We were separated for a short while, until EX got into counseling. While the pastor and elders were concerned for our physical safety, they were also concerned for our hearts. Looking back, they really had to juggle some knives with our family. On one hand, they wanted us safe, and yet, wanted to keep us in the Word, keep us from becoming vengeful and bitter toward EX. So, the encouragement to behave according to Scripture's instructions was for several reasons. 1) Obedience is expected even when circumstances are bad 2) For my OWN spiritual condition, I needed to not reduce myself to a vengeful, angry woman. God will enact His own revenge, in His time and in His way. Behaving myself allowed me to move on and heal, not harbor bitterness and toxic thoughts. 3) If I behaved badly, the chances of a reconciliation were less and the church's ultimate goal at the time for our family was repentance, forgiveness and reconciliation between EX and I.

 

So, long story longer, Yes, I was expected to behave well during this very stressful and scary time, and at the same time, I was protected and shielded from EX's rages by my church.

 

Sadly, in the end, EX chose to continue to be deceitful and adulterous and I divorced him on the biblical grounds of immorality. My church supported and encouraged me and my kids throughout the entire process. EX was removed from fellowship because he refused to admit to the adultery and pretty much played the pastor and elders for fools. They were not amused.

 

I hope that, in some way, answered your question.

[Holly IN]

I think it is quite disrespectful to tell ANYONE to shut up, let alone my husband. I would be ticked if my husband told me to shut up.

 

Actually my dh didn't think I was disrespectful to him. My point was that he was ok even when I felt bad about it afterwords. Not sure what your point was in this. He understood that he was putting me under stress trying to pull out in the intersection which was very busy. Not sure what your point was in my story. :confused:

 

 

I want everybody to know that I love my husband very much. He is my bestest friend of all. He loves me as well. We love and respect each other very much!!

 

Holly

Edited July 12, 2009 by Holly IN
clarify

[kalanamak]

I think it is quite disrespectful to tell ANYONE to shut up, let alone my husband. I would be ticked if my husband told me to shut up.

 

 

I recall driving my parents to the dock to catch a steamship in NYC. I was accustomed to driving in NYC, but my mother was not accustomed to riding either in NYC or in a car driven by me. I was in my 30's. She was nervous in traffic (accidents as a child) and was interfering with my ability to drive. I shouted ShutUP, the only time in my life's memory I shouted at her, and the only time I've told any member of my natal family to shut up. It worked, and it was the right thing to do, for safety's sake. She did, and said not a word, but gave me her usual loving smile when I put them on the boat some 30 minutes later.

 

It's all context.

[swimmermom3]

LOL. So are you saying submissive equals incompetent or unsure?

 

The reason I ask is because after I first got saved I really looked into what a "good" Christian wife was "supposed" to be... And I THOUGHT it meant that a good Christian wife is not only who defers to her husband but asks him about the most minute questions, bowing and scraping, consulting him on lint in the dryer and whatnot.

 

Truth be told, we all have very different husbands. And what they may be looking for in a wife is entirely different. My DH did NOT like being consulted on everything. If I feel like meatloaf tomorrow night, it annoys him to say, "Honey, what would you like for supper?" "Doesn't matter." "No, really, would you rather have x or y or z." Um, he really DOESN'T care. He'd just like to eat. :P

 

Submission means a willing service to the person you're married to. A wife should be someone you can trust. Trust to school the children, trust to raise the babies, trust to care for the home, trust in financial matters. The Proverbs 31 woman considered a field and bought it. This is obviously an area in their particular marriage that the husband had left her responsible for. It doesn't say that she consulted him but that she considered it. I'm sure she made what she thought was a wise financial investment and he was probably proud of her. I bought our last two cars. My DH hates dealing with car people. Eight years ago I would have INSISTED that he do it, because that's a "man's" realm and I would have felt "insubordinate" doing this like I wasn't a good Christian wife. Then I figured out that submission is unique to every marriage - every husband/wife couple. By insisting he do that, I would have been unsubmissive. ;) How's that for irony?

 

Submission isn't simply bowing and scraping. It's willingly serving. A husband can't demand submission. It is a gift given by a wife, through her faith in God, as willing service to show her respect for authority (of God and husband as head of household) and her love and willingness to serve.

 

My children are allowed to respectfully appeal to me. I am allowed to respectfully to appeal to him even if he appears to have made a decision. I am not going to whine and pout (well, when I'm being good) about something I didn't "win." I make most choices without his input - I handle most of the budget, the bills, the homeschooling, homeschooling material decisions. These are things he has placed in my sphere of authority.

 

The Proverbs 31 woman is the PERFECT example of submission. She has things brought into her sphere of authority and she adeptly handles them so that her husband will not be shamed and so that he has full trust and faith in her abilities.

 

That said, I fully believe in stereotypical roles. My husband works 50-60 hours a week. He's absolutely committed to providing for his family and for giving his best all the time - at home or at work. I do NOT want him to come home to a destroyed house, or no dinner, or wake up in the AM and find out there is no clean underwear or whoops! We ran out of toilet paper. ;) I like laying out his clothes, ironing his shirts, getting up at 5AM and making his coffee, and packing his lunch. I like doing these things because in terms of Love Languages, they are acts of service - definitely one of his love languages. He gives to us everytime he goes off to work and at night when he comes home. Should he have to clean the house when he comes home? Make supper? That seems crazy to me. My sphere of authority is our home and it is a trust issue that I manage it correctly so that **I** can sit down and put my feet up too at night. ;)

 

I wish ya'all could see healthy submission / serving in action. It's a beautiful thing and I'm very thankful I have a husband who is incredible and I WANT to actively love and serve. And I'm very grateful to God for showing me the way. Because my only example up to adulthood had been my parent's marriage where my mom told my dad if he could jump, when he could jump, and how high he could jump. And woe to him if he made any plans to jump that didn't have previous consultation and approval. And it's not okay. And it's not pretty. And she's missing out on what a marriage truly could be... a really amazing thing where each spouse works really hard to serve - because I love God and because we love each other, not because it's DEMANDED of me.

 

Kelly, this is a great post. What you have described sounds very much like what those of us who fall in the non-Biblical category have described our marriages as being like. I have a great husband who works long hours. I do things for him because I love him, not because it's my duty. I'm glad you've hung around here and stated your case. It still doesn't keep me from cringing about the term "submission".

 

My discomfort comes from thinking about my SIL. She would fit here much better than I do. She is a God-fearing, home-schooling mother of 4 boys in a very traditional marriage. It works well for the them and my BIL is a good man. We were at a family reunion last summer. There were about 25 of us sharing two large homes next to each other. One BIL did all of the cooking as a gift to us moms.:001_wub: There were 7 families and we divided up clean-up duty after each meal by family. My SIL's family including her DIL numbered 7 members, the largest of the group. When their turn to clean up came, my BIL and his 4 sons were nowhere to be found. The rest of us women and my dh felt guilty about leaving the clean-up to my SIL and her DIL so we helped. Maybe this shouldn't have bothered me but it did. Unfortunately, when I think of a submissive wife,this image comes to mind.

[kiana]

I recall driving my parents to the dock to catch a steamship in NYC. I was accustomed to driving in NYC, but my mother was not accustomed to riding either in NYC or in a car driven by me. I was in my 30's. She was nervous in traffic (accidents as a child) and was interfering with my ability to drive. I shouted ShutUP, the only time in my life's memory I shouted at her, and the only time I've told any member of my natal family to shut up. It worked, and it was the right thing to do, for safety's sake. She did, and said not a word, but gave me her usual loving smile when I put them on the boat some 30 minutes later.

 

It's all context.

 

Ya, ditto. It takes a lot longer to say "do you mind, dear, you're interfering with my ability to drive," plus it's actually very nerve-wracking to be trying to pay attention to the road and trying to listen to someone that you normally wouldn't just tune out.

[swimmermom3]

Gee, thank you.

 

You know though, I've got a good man. It makes it easy for me. But I have a question...

 

Now if I believed the Bible was the word of God and felt I was instructed by God to submit (honor/respect) to my dh's authority, I would need to do that whether he was the great guy I've got or whether he was demanding, overbearing, unreasonable or whatever. I mean, God's commands are His commands, even in our imperfect world? Right? Just because my dh was a jerk a lot of time wouldn't let me off the hook? Or could I refuse to follow his lead (I'm not speaking of anything immoral or sinful) because he was being a jerk? Just to clarify I don't mean if he was being abusive or having an affair, just not a pleasant person.

 

Janet

 

This is what I think about. What if dh wants to make a really bad financial decision, or he believes in leaving a critical health care choice for a child to God's will (no medical intervention) and you don't agree. Do you go along with the decision trusting that God will take care of it? I've probably picked extreme examples, but neither of those actions are immoral or sinful in and of themselves.

[TXMomof4]

I find it interesting that you bring up the Proverbs 31 woman in this discussion. I just went and re-read Proverbs 31, and I don't see any evidence that she is a submissive wife. She is extremely capable, and her husband is pleased with her, but I don't see any mention of her deferring to her husband's counsel or decisions.

 

 

Exactly. It's that word - submission - that gets everyone's panties in a wad. That link to the FIAR thread is actually very good. The whole instruction on wives submitting to husbands ends up with instructions for husbands to love a wife as they do themselves. That is a pretty important part of the instruction IMO. A man dominating and controlling his wife is obviously not following his instructions. The scales are pretty well balanced if each party is fulfilling what they are actually instructed to do.

 

I wonder what the tone of the original language actually was. You know how a lot of the nuance is lost in translation - I wonder if that's something that has happened here. I'm pretty darn sure there weren't a lot of women doing the translation back in the day.....

[Peek a Boo]

Now if I believed the Bible was the word of God and felt I was instructed by God to submit (honor/respect) to my dh's authority, I would need to do that whether he was the great guy I've got or whether he was demanding, overbearing, unreasonable or whatever. I mean, God's commands are His commands, even in our imperfect world? Right? Just because my dh was a jerk a lot of time wouldn't let me off the hook? Or could I refuse to follow his lead (I'm not speaking of anything immoral or sinful) because he was being a jerk? Just to clarify I don't mean if he was being abusive or having an affair, just not a pleasant person.

 

Right.

 

However, scriptural context applies:

as his [voluntarily submissive] wife, my role is his helpmeet:

I am there to help him meet his maker ;)

 

Just kidding!! :lol:

 

well, wait -- actually, maybe that's a pretty accurate description::001_huh:

 

as his helpmeet, i am there to help him grow in his walk w/ Christ. Some spouses need a spouse modeling a stereotypical submissive spirit, others need a spouse that will hit them over the head with a steel I-beam [:seeya:] . This is an area where I think some leeway is needed: we all have different gifts and personalities, and God has a way of matching up spouses with the people who need them, and vice versa. Submission in a [biblical] marriage will work FOR the marriage [God], not for SELF [idolatry].

 

God's commands about submission do not say to "submit at any cost" -- they define explicitly to what we are to submit: Eph 5 [for starters].

i would not "follow his lead" if he was wantonly spending us broke [1 Tim 5:8] or exposing the children to false beliefs [Prov 22:6], just to name a couple. We are called to be imitators of God and like Christ: unrepentant sin is called to the carpet and dealt with. i think manymanymany on the extreme "submit at all cost" Christians do ignore the whole counsel of scripture: Allowing a horrible marriage to continue w/o correction presents a lie to the world: Christ expects Good Fruit, not Rotting Flesh.

 

eta: a Biblical divorce is only allowed for adultery; a physical separation for the family's sake [yet still acknowledging teh "one flesh" marriage] is a separate matter.

 

i think the following meets Biblical and secular reasoning:

A spouse [or citizen of the gvt] can still respect the authority of the person given a leadership role and submit to that authority [even love them!] w/o agreeing with them [and sometimes not following them] on every point.

Sometimes that "not following" can have harsh consequences, and sometimes that "not following" can help correct horrible transgressions.

 

I don't think there's a hard and fast "list" but i do think that list will look different for each family.

Edited July 12, 2009 by Peek a Boo

[5kidsforME]

Actually my dh didn't think I was disrespectful to him. My point was that he was ok even when I felt bad about it afterwords. Not sure what your point was in this. He understood that he was putting me under stress trying to pull out in the intersection which was very busy. Not sure what your point was in my story. :confused:

 

 

I want everybody to know that I love my husband very much. He is my bestest friend of all. He loves me as well. We love and respect each other very much!!

 

Holly

 

IMO it is disrespectful. Unfortunately I replied before I really thought it through. :tongue_smilie: Everyone is raised differently and to some saying shut up or having it said to you is no big deal. I am sure you love your dh. :001_smile:

[5kidsforME]

Ya, ditto. It takes a lot longer to say "do you mind, dear, you're interfering with my ability to drive," plus it's actually very nerve-wracking to be trying to pay attention to the road and trying to listen to someone that you normally wouldn't just tune out.

 

You could just say Quiet Please! Or Quiet. But again, to some shut up is no big deal.

[Peek a Boo]

There were 7 families and we divided up clean-up duty after each meal by family. My SIL's family including her DIL numbered 7 members, the largest of the group. When their turn to clean up came, my BIL and his 4 sons were nowhere to be found. The rest of us women and my dh felt guilty about leaving the clean-up to my SIL and her DIL so we helped. Maybe this shouldn't have bothered me but it did. Unfortunately, when I think of a submissive wife,this image comes to mind.

 

maybe their family had already discussed doing something w/ the boys before ever coming to the reunion? something that might have stemmed from something that happened at home? maybe that the girls didn't have an interest in? and SIL figgered this would be a good time to let them go?

[SherryTX]

....when it comes to video games.

If I want to play but he is on one of his video game marathons, I let him play all he wants. Because I know this is in response to a very difficult week he has had and it helps him veg out a bit on the weekend now and then. But that's because it means more to him than me!

 

:tongue_smilie:

[angela in ohio]

Gee, thank you.

 

You know though, I've got a good man. It makes it easy for me. But I have a question...

 

Now if I believed the Bible was the word of God and felt I was instructed by God to submit (honor/respect) to my dh's authority, I would need to do that whether he was the great guy I've got or whether he was demanding, overbearing, unreasonable or whatever. I mean, God's commands are His commands, even in our imperfect world? Right? Just because my dh was a jerk a lot of time wouldn't let me off the hook? Or could I refuse to follow his lead (I'm not speaking of anything immoral or sinful) because he was being a jerk? Just to clarify I don't mean if he was being abusive or having an affair, just not a pleasant person.

 

Janet

 

Well, honestly, it's not like we are in arranged marriages. If your (not yours) husband is a jerk, odds are he was when you chose to marry him. ;) If a Christian woman decides to marry a jerk, she does so knowing she will have to respect him. Now, if she becomes a Christian later (as I did,) or he becomes a jerk later (I've never seen a jerk husband who hadn't always been a jerk, but I guess it could happen,) it's a bit trickier. But, yes, I believe you still have to respect him. Just as he still has to love his wife when she is not very lovely.

 

I've found, though, that if you treat a man like he is smart, capable, and respectable, he will generally rise up to it. Just like when dh treats me like I am a great wife, even if I'm not, I strive to be one.

[angela in ohio]

;)

There were 7 families and we divided up clean-up duty after each meal by family. My SIL's family including her DIL numbered 7 members, the largest of the group. When their turn to clean up came, my BIL and his 4 sons were nowhere to be found. The rest of us women and my dh felt guilty about leaving the clean-up to my SIL and her DIL so we helped. Maybe this shouldn't have bothered me but it did. Unfortunately, when I think of a submissive wife,this image comes to mind.

 

This could be us. Dh works really, really hard all year, and I take care of him (and his family) on vacation. I would have been very willingly doing the cleaning while he and the boys relaxed. If someone else offered to help, that would have been fine, but I wouldn't have minded doing it by myself or with my dd. I consider cleaning up after family (or friends, or anyone) an act of love and service, not a chore. I'm not trying to argue, I'm just explaining where she may be coming from.

 

I think there is a misconception about this type of marriage. The post about the husband cleaning up after the nosebleed could have been mine. Dh does things like that all the time. Because I give him the respect he desires, he gives me the love I do. He serves me often, in many little ways, including cooking and cleaning when needed.

 

Just because there are bad marriages where submission is abused by some jerk, that doesn't speak to all marriages where a wife submits (just as one abusive or negligent homeschooler doesn't mean we all are.) And I know several women whose husbands are big jerks, and they are in equal marriages (I don't know what else to call it) with hyphenated names, separate checking accounts, etc. ;) I think jerks are just jerks, no matter what type of marriage they are in.

[kalanamak]

You could just say Quiet Please! Or Quiet.

 

I had tried several times. I believe my mum was in a bit of a panic. I needed to get her attention. I don't know if you've ever driven in mid-town, but you really need to concentrate.

[5kidsforME]

I had tried several times. I believe my mum was in a bit of a panic. I needed to get her attention. I don't know if you've ever driven in mid-town, but you really need to concentrate.

 

I grew up in Philly. ;)

[Lovedtodeath]

 

I've found, though, that if you treat a man like he is smart, capable, and respectable, he will generally rise up to it. Just like when dh treats me like I am a great wife, even if I'm not, I strive to be one.

And how many husbands have you tested that theory on? ;)

 

[asta]

A marriage is not a ship though, it's a friendship, a romance, a partnership, and a series of negotiations. Like any marriage, my wife and I sometimes come to an intractable position, where neither of us wants to yield. So why should it be me who gets to say, "That's the way it is, and your duty is to submit?"

 

Instead, if the issue is more important to my wife, I yield, and if it's more important to me, I yield.

 

If not, well, you can call it submission, but that's just another word for domination.

 

Yeah.

 

When I read "submission" all I can think is BDSM.

 

 

a

[Peek a Boo]

I think that is why there are sooo many different types of marriages even within Christianity. Because different ones have a different interpretation about what submission is from a biblical standpoint.

 

 

agreed. I think this is the crux of the issue as the question was asked.

Anyway - yeah God told Abraham to listen to his wife -but in my book it is pretty sad that a man would have to have his pastor or God tell him to ever listen to his wife.

 

are you saying that non-religious folk NEVER ask someone else for marital advice??

Can i get a copy of your book??

Personally, I blame all this on apostle Paul...I personally think he was a women hater and took things way too far when it came to keeping the women down in Christianity. I think there are more strong women examples in the Old Testament than the New Testament. But I guess that would be for another thread.....

 

well....if the OP is asking about issues in which the Christian answer would be.... then i think it's pretty important to consider what the Christian answer DOES entail. I'm not seeing where you claim Paul was a women hater: his directives specifically call for men submitting TO WOMEN and loving and protecting them. Even strong women in the OT submitted to [and argued with ;)] their husbands, just as men in the OT submitted to [and argued with :D] God.

 

Instead, if the issue is more important to my wife, I yield, and if it's more important to me, I yield.

kinda like "what's hers is hers and what's mine is hers" ;)

If not, well, you can call it submission, but that's just another word for domination.

 

I agree that THAT form of submission is really domination.

 

This is why i much prefer the Biblical role of voluntary submission: cuz the husband's role is NOTHING like that:

 

[from the link shared in the other thread by nakia and referenced by Rosie:]

 

In other words, when we were absolutely wrong, dead in our sins, unwilling to acknowledge God or perhaps even angrily shaking our fist in His face- he willing took the blame, suffering and punishment on our behalf in order to bring about reconciliation between God and us. There's your picture.

 

When there is a disagreement between husband and wife, even if the wife is DEAD WRONG and the whole mess is HER FAULT and the husband is absolutely without guilt or blame in the matter- it's HIS responsibility to be the peacemaker, to bring reconciliation, to initiate healing in the relationship.

 

 

http://www.fiarhq.com/~gbprnhrz/forum/showthread.php?t=58964&highlight=submission