Greta Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 My plan is to go to the library, ask for all the specific info they have related to this issue, and come up with a plan. I'll let y'all know what I decide. I certainly do have the nerve to pursue this and believe I can be level-headed enough to perhaps bring about some kind of change. I'm not the type to just sit around and complain without doing something. I'm just not looking forward to it. FWIW, I'm you have my support! Please keep us updated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie in Austin Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Two thoughts: (1) I wonder if loud public shaming would work: "I REALIZE THAT YOU HAVE A LEGAL RIGHT TO DO THIS, BUT IT STILL AGGRAVATES ME THAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT PORN IN FRONT OF CHILDREN." (2) I can't believe this is legal. If someone exposed their own body to a child, they'd be arrested for indecent exposure. Why is it OK to expose someone else's naked body to a child? At the least, couldn't this be considered emotional abuse? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elizabeth Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 I'm sorry, but really- are you joking? Sometimes I read these posts & am just so taken back. The way the phrase 'liberal' is thrown around here. NYC public library has some of the most thorough filters in the country- you cannot see this site it is so stringent- I know, I've tried. Would you consider New York liberal? I really feel like every time the phrase is thrown out there, there is an unspoken implication that sin goes hand-in-hand with liberalism, as if those who consider themselves conservative are free from sin. You can live the best (insert purest, honest, whatever you choose) life you know how- but the judgement is ultimately out of our hands. There is a huge difference between liberal and sinful- if a library is turning their eyes away from pornography that is in open view for children is that being liberal or sinful? \ Thank you for your words that express so well and with such grace what I believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 No filters. No supervision. No saved history of patron use after users log off. When asked, the librarian said she was sorry, that the policy is that it "isn't allowed", but they can't stop it. Oh, I see what you're saying. In that case, like you, I would bring to someone's attention that they should institute some sort of safeguards against the possibility. And I don't know if it was the possibility that concerned you, of if you actually saw someone viewing child porn, but if it was the latter, you do know you can take that directly to the police, right? What they were doing was illegal, regardless of whether they were doing it in the library or their own home. And I realize it is normal for men to enjoy viewing women's bodies. However, I don't let my boys sit outside strip clubs, xxx movies, or adult book stores. Why do I want them reading in the same area with men viewing the same 'content' at the library? I can't imagine how I would feel if I had girls. As the mom of a little girl, it is something that concerns me greatly. While I believe in the right of consenting adults to do what they want (in PRIVATE!), I also believe very strongly in the right of children to be free of it, to not be exposed to it (searching for the right words here). And in the case of a public library, it seems quite clear to me that the right of the child trumps the "right" of the adult! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impish Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Two thoughts: (1) I wonder if loud public shaming would work: "I REALIZE THAT YOU HAVE A LEGAL RIGHT TO DO THIS, BUT IT STILL AGGRAVATES ME THAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT PORN IN FRONT OF CHILDREN." (2) I can't believe this is legal. If someone exposed their own body to a child, they'd be arrested for indecent exposure. Why is it OK to expose someone else's naked body to a child? At the least, couldn't this be considered emotional abuse? Well, then you get into the 'What about classical art that uses nudes? Should we ban those from the library too, so children won't accidentally be exposed to those? Heaven forbid a child catches a glimpse of Michelangelo's 'David'", etc etc etc that it always evolves into. *Disclaimer* Porn should not be on public library computer, that's a no brainer, and I can't believe there are morons that are doing this. Taking the tactic, however, that NO nudes should be ever available to a child's eyes will have plenty of argument, and calls of censorship. A blanket ban of nudity for under 18 is not something I would support. No porn, absolutely, without a doubt. No nudes...whole other ball of wax. Nor is viewing the naked human body emotional abuse...again, depending on the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie in Austin Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Well, then you get into the 'What about classical art that uses nudes? Should we ban those from the library too, so children won't accidentally be exposed to those? Heaven forbid a child catches a glimpse of Michelangelo's 'David'", etc etc etc that it always evolves into. *Disclaimer* Porn should not be on public library computer, that's a no brainer, and I can't believe there are morons that are doing this. Taking the tactic, however, that NO nudes should be ever available to a child's eyes will have plenty of argument, and calls of censorship. A blanket ban of nudity for under 18 is not something I would support. No porn, absolutely, without a doubt. No nudes...whole other ball of wax. Nor is viewing the naked human body emotional abuse...again, depending on the situation. I get what you are saying here, and I don't support the no-nudes-in-art line either. I'm not a lawyer, but apparently jurisdictions have worked it out so that a man in a trench coat flashing a kid can be illegal but The Big Book of Classical Art isn't, and can't whatever metric they use there be applied here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yslek Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 My mom worked for the local library when I was in High School. This was an area of immense frustration for her and the other library staff. Legally, there was nothing they could do to people (including teenagers & kids!) viewing inappropriate content on the library computers. :glare: All of the computers at our library have those screen-darkening things on them, so that you have to be right in front of the screen to see what's on it. Still... I wish they could enforce a no-porn policy. The idea that pedophiles might be drawn to libraries really has me creeped out. Gah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtroad Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 I'm just curious how one knows men are regularly downloading porn at the library. I'm sure there is the occasional fruited loop out there who does this, but that it happens in epidemic proportions seems unlikely to me. I would think putting the computers in private areas might encourage more to download porn. I'm not sure if that is the solution. It is much worse than you imagine. Some librarians are even having problems with this due to behavior and privacy concerns. It would not be the 2nd or 3rd largest internet search activity .... if it weren't a huge problem. IT is also a self-indulgent problem... and many don't care if you are offended. Small town local libraries have huge problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtroad Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 My advice to OP... DISCUSS with library... no results? Organize a group or write something for local paper... no results? STOP GOING! I realize they can't filter or won't, etc..... however, they can turn the screens to face the wall or put them in a more private viewing area. It can be done... if they want to do it. If they refuse to help families... do all you can to get the word out to parents! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibbygirl Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Ugh. Am I the only one who feels sick to their stomach reading all of this stuff? I realize that there is all kinds of misery in this world, but this stuff.... it just really turns my stomach. :ack2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 My mom worked for the local library when I was in High School. This was an area of immense frustration for her and the other library staff. Legally, there was nothing they could do to people (including teenagers & kids!) viewing inappropriate content on the library computers. :glare: Wow, I'm surprised to hear that. I can lose my "right" to check out library books if I don't return them in a (more or less) timely fashion. I signed an agreement to that when I got my library card. When I got the addition to the card to allow me to use the computers, I signed another agreement. And my memory isn't clear (I wasn't thinking much about it at the time, since I had no intention of doing it anyway!) but I could have sworn that no porn and no chatting were part of the agreement. So anyone who violates that would have their card revoked. Seems pretty simple. Is my library unusual in this? I think I'm going to inquire about it next time I'm there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teamturner Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Hey if the library is a place to get access to the porn industry, perhaps they should have late night hours just for porn patrons. Something like 10pm-2am. They could charge a cover charge like at a strip club. Maybe serve alcoholic beverages? In my library those librarians are quick to point out if a child is running in the library. Meanwhile, people are viewing naked people and that's okay?? Sheesh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impish Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 I get what you are saying here, and I don't support the no-nudes-in-art line either. I'm not a lawyer, but apparently jurisdictions have worked it out so that a man in a trench coat flashing a kid can be illegal but The Big Book of Classical Art isn't, and can't whatever metric they use there be applied here? My point was, in attempting to defend the right to view porn, expect that line of argument. Also expect that there will be a faction of people who would be very fine and grateful to have horrible nudes like 'David' banned from those under 18, and push that limit...'since we're here, and banning nudity...' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyK Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 A couple of thoughts: -- no question, children shouldn’t be roaming around libraries alone. Aside from the pedophile problem, I hear from librarians that they are turning into free babysitting services (not for people on the list I’m sure). Behavior issues, who should they call if something goes wrong, etc. -- libraries are really busy these days due to the economy. People are needing to use free books and DVDs more than ever. So a lot of librarians have their hands full (no hiring due to economy and less tax dollars coming in). They’re also helping the computer illiterate fill out job applications online, figure out how to read financial docs online. Just a thought to be nice to the ground forces since they don’t control policy. --computers in libraries are being used tons by people job seeking, dealing with financial things online, etc. Many people have no computer access at home and yet the only job apps or financial info is online. We have waits of hours to use computers at our library. I think the other patrons may be the best weapon against porn. If I was waiting for a computer to see my foreclosure docs, and some guy was watching porn, there’d be a confrontation, and I’m not confrontational. --for whatever it is worth, I’m at our local library all the time (and at our Central library) and have never had a problem with seeing porn. --child porn is definitely illegal, so I would call the police if I saw that. Also pretty sure it is illegal to show porn to a child (porn is defined differently than nude paintings, lots of court cases on that) so if I got the feeling that the guy was positioning himself to do that I would call. (As an analogy, I would call the police in a heartbeat if someone exposed himself to me or a kid, but I just feel sorry for the homeless mentally ill who may be relieving themselves semi privately. There’s no intent to disturb anyone with the latter.) And I love the public shaming idea with the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 I'm VP on the Library Board of our little one-room library. We almost have more computer use than book checkouts. The issues that librarians have to deal with is incredible, even in small town Texas. Yes, placing the computers facing a wall is important. Children shouldn't be in libraries alone. But as a citizen? Instead of the loud shaming [which sounded great to me at first, lol!].... Take a video camera w/ you into the library and start videotaping all the stuff. If you videotape a guy watching child porn, that is irrefutable evidence, and yes, call the police. Librarians have a duty about privacy wrt porn, but citizens can blab anything they want. Keep the videotaping subtle. The smaller the better. Hide it in a thrift store purse that has been cut to allow videotaping out the end. Get as much video as possible, and as much detail about the person viewing it. Follow them [at a distance] to their vehicle and get their license plate. Post it to youtube. Start a Library Watch blog where more parents w/ tiny video cameras can step up too. Send copies to your city manager, police department, mayor, city council, Library Board, newspapers, and TV stations. Send out emails. Print up fliers. name names when at all possible. Video cameras are powerful tools. Very Powerful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dobela Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Thank you for the link ! If software can be disabled by the user, the "protection" evaporates at once. Porn-likers will disable the filter, read their smut (with children walking right by them), and "forget" to re-enable the filter when they leave the terminals. If the library staff has to "turn on and off" the filter, a modicum of control remains. If a 7-11 store has to keep the "dirty mags" behind the counter or, as in some communities even, with covers not showing, how much more justifiable is it for a library to insist on filtering software ! The filters at our library are passworded. To override them, the librarian has to enter the password. Once a person signs off a computer, the filter is somehow set to restart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momofeat Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 My dh is over the computer systems at a library that did not want filters. Porn viewing was a problem, and yes, the men acted out on their feelings, if you KWIM. I was disgusted, but I'm sure the poor employees cleaning the messes were even more so. Eventually, dh was able to persuade the librarians to add the filters, and I never hear him talk about complaints. There are more advanced filters that are not as likely to filter legitimate sites, and that is what they use. I sure hope this library will listen to you. There is no need to have such trash in a public place. Keep us updated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumping In Puddles Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 My faith in humanity to be decent is pretty low right now. :sad: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibbygirl Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Porn viewing was a problem, and yes, the men acted out on their feelings, if you KWIM. I was disgusted, but I'm sure the poor employees cleaning the messes were even more so. Oh Lord please tell me you are not saying what I think you are saying!! :eek: How gross is that!!! :ack2: Certainly men can be arrested for THAT!!! I mean, Pee Wee Herman was in an adult movie theatre and got arrested for ahem "making a mess" YIKES!! That is just disgusting beyong words... I think I'm going to go hurl now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz CA Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 I'm just curious how one knows men are regularly downloading porn at the library. I'm sure there is the occasional fruited loop out there who does this, but that it happens in epidemic proportions seems unlikely to me. I would think putting the computers in private areas might encourage more to download porn. I'm not sure if that is the solution. I see two different issues here: Someone is looking at this material and it cannot be censored by the librarian but children or anyone walking behind the computer user can glimpse images. In a separate corner or room, these people can still do what they are doing anyway but away from the eyes of young ones and those who do not care to accidentally look left/right and see these images flashing across a screen. So, I think you could definitely suggest moving the adult computers into a more isolated spot. If they will be sympathetic to your concerns remains to be seen. I know what it's like living in a liberal area and I am not sure that our library would be willing to make that effort. Good luck, though! Let us know how it pans out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz CA Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Ugh. Am I the only one who feels sick to their stomach reading all of this stuff? I realize that there is all kinds of misery in this world, but this stuff.... it just really turns my stomach. :ack2: No, you are not the only one. I wish sometimes we could go back to pre-internet times or somehow legally ban it. But it all comes down to personal choices and self-control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Governess Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Ugh. Am I the only one who feels sick to their stomach reading all of this stuff? I realize that there is all kinds of misery in this world, but this stuff.... it just really turns my stomach. :ack2: Nope, you aren't the only one. I can't believe what I'm reading! :eek: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz CA Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 I'd do my best to get rid of it. Frankly, I'm not the least bit interested in the rights of perverts who want to look at porn. And who knows what they are doing while they're looking? How many of them are looking at child porn and looking around in the library to see who isn't watching their child?? And who wants their child to be anywhere in the vicinity? Letters to the editor, get some moms together and march around the library chanting "down with government sponsered porn!!" Get T-shirts for the kids that say "We want our library back!" Stand outside with flyers and hand them to everyone that goes in. Yes, the more I read now what msjones is saying, the more upset I get. I think you - msjones - and perhaps all of us who are aware of this, should write to the Board of Supervisors and present this in just the way msjones did in her post above. Maybe there are more people with common sense out there than we dare hope??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibbygirl Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Nope, you aren't the only one. I can't believe what I'm reading! :eek: Sheesh!! It really makes me appreciate my library that much more. I really like the way they run the computer area. There are probably about 60 computers or so for public use. They are all in one area with clear glass walls and doors near the entrance so people are always walking by it. You have to type in your library card, last 4 digits of your phone number and your last name into the computer in order to access the internet. The usage is timed and I think you get about 40 minutes. Since patrons might need assistance with the login or with printing, there is an employee of the library who stands at the back of the room and can see the screens of all of the patrons who are in front of him. If there was ever a problem the policeman is just outside at the circulation desk. I think that would be a pretty good system to deterr porn surfing on the public computer. Oh and the kid's computers are all the way on the other side of the library in the kids's area and there is a library employee at a desk there as well. The kids' computers all have filters on them I believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibbygirl Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Yes, the more I read now what msjones is saying, the more upset I get.I think you - msjones - and perhaps all of us who are aware of this, should write to the Board of Supervisors and present this in just the way msjones did in her post above. Maybe there are more people with common sense out there than we dare hope??? Or contact the local news and have them do a piece on it. I think that might go a long way to bring about a change as well. The problem is exposed while at the same time pointing out the problems in the library system and the news gets yet another salacious story to boost their ratings. Seems win win to me. ;) :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtroad Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 I have pretty much quit using the library... books are super cheap on amazon.com. People are just wicked! Self indulgent & perverted. So sad! At the library.... I read an article the other day about homeless again taking over libraries... sleeping, bathing, hiding, eating.... librarians have to be very cautious with them also b/c many have great problems & can be dangerous. They carry thier luggage into the library with them and the staff are using rules against suitcases & duffel bags to try to curb all of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosy Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 The Seattle libraries are crazy. They are big and well-funded, but they also tend to be a haven for many people who have no interest in reading or gaining information. When Msjones talks about this issue being a liberal issue, that's because in Seattle it is. Conservatives have pushed for greater restrictions on what people are able to access in the libraries, and Liberals have fought for freedom of information. That's not to say Liberals look at porn more, or personally object to porn less, that's just how the debate has gone around here. In my library (1 hr away and in a different county), most of the monitors are set into the desks, so someone walking by would have to crane their neck to see what was being looked at. Also, the computers in the childrens' sections are filtered, and the rest are password protected (you need your library card #) and you can choose filtered or unfiltered. So I as a parent can sign my kids in and choose filtered service for them, and it's difficult to see what other people are viewing. Maybe the Seattle librarians need to take a field trip to Pierce County. If library policies are going to allow for unfiltered internet, libraries need to take measures to protect children. When we got our library card, the librarian took time to explain their policies and encourage me as a mom to make sure my kids were viewing appropriate content because she was unable to do it. I think there is a lot libraries can do to keep that sort of thing from affecting patrons who don't want to be exposed to it--keeping unfiltered computers in a different area, providing headphones, limiting personal laptops to a specific part of the building, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 I haven't read all the replies, but I agree with the ones I read discussing the problems with installing filters on all the computers. Now speaking as a librarian.... You might start by simply asking them what their policy is regarding pornography and computer use. They may very well have a policy in place already. If that is the case, the issue then is trying to enforce the policy. This is so much easier said than done. It is difficult to patrol a large bank of computers for infractions of the computer use policies. If you find that they do have a policy, and you have still seen people breaking the rules, then please DO let them know you have seen this happening and that it concerns you because anyone walking by can see these images. Point out HOW it breaks their policy, and ask for them to consider more monitoring of infractions of the use policy. It is important here to keep the focus on the fact that people are breaking policy -- not just the fact that it is porn and offensive to you. If they don't have such a policy in place, inquire as to why not. If they tell you it has to do with no censorship or something like that, then you are probably out of luck on getting them to institute such a policy, but you are not out of options for addressing the issue entirely! Find out to whom complaints should go, then IN WRITING explain that you have seen these images on computers, state which computers. Explain your concern that any public walking can see these images, and ask them to consider either relocating the computers in such a way so that the images are not viewable by passing public traffic. I wish you luck on this one. FWIW, at my library the usage policy clearly states that the computers may not be used to view or download any material that falls under the fair definition of pornography. The policy even cites the provincial definition. We do not apply any filters because they are problematic, especially for patrons seeking medical information. However, our computers are situated in such a way that I can see every single screen from the main desk. We have caught people before and their computer priviledges are revoked permanently upon the first infraction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cindy in the NH Woods Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Exposing children to pornography is child abuse. End of story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumping In Puddles Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 I have pretty much quit using the library... books are super cheap on amazon.com. People are just wicked! Self indulgent & perverted. So sad! At the library.... I read an article the other day about homeless again taking over libraries... sleeping, bathing, hiding, eating.... librarians have to be very cautious with them also b/c many have great problems & can be dangerous. They carry thier luggage into the library with them and the staff are using rules against suitcases & duffel bags to try to curb all of this. Books can be inexpensive on Amazon but they are not free, and it all adds up quickly! Some people may not have room to store many books so they rely on the library. I would rather they take all the computers out of the library because it sounds like they are more trouble than they are worth. If only people would use the honor system and not break the dang library rules, we would have nothing to worry about. :angry: We have caught people before and their computer priviledges are revoked permanently upon the first infraction. Sounds like you were doing your job well. :w00t: This is exactly what I would expect so why it isn't being done, I can't understand that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phathui5 Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Isn't viewing porn in public pretty much equivalent to flashing people? What about calling the police? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaxMom Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 {flying my "liberal" flag, just in case anyone has a question as to where I sit after my response} There is absolutely no way that it is ok to permit pornography on a public-access computer. It simply violates every law regarding minors' access to pornography out there. Yes, general filters can be problematic; they scan for "key words" that aren't always specific to questionable sites. However, they can be temporarily disabled or over-ridden by manually allowing, say, WebMD. There is (and I wish I could remember the source) a database of known porn sites that one can use to block by specific IP address... at least there was in 1998 because my company used it for the "inside the firewall" computers. I'm pretty sure it was updated frequently. Our library requires patrons to use their library card to access the computers and has a no adult site policy. They certainly have a way of tracking the use of any given machine and cross-referencing it with the logged user. Ironically, the one person I have ever discovered inappropriately surfing porn (at work, when I worked in a technical support call center - we lived "outside the firewall") was also engaged in what sounded like a Christian marriage counseling conference call at the time. :001_huh: If that isn't vulgar, well, I just don't know what is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fivetails Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 My mom worked for the local library when I was in High School. This was an area of immense frustration for her and the other library staff. Legally, there was nothing they could do to people (including teenagers & kids!) viewing inappropriate content on the library computers. :glare: See, this - I don't get. "Nothing they could do" . ? How about kicking them out, revoking their library card, banning them from the building, whatever. The library owns the building (or rents it,whatever) and owns the computers - so why can't they make the rules? Just make a rule against it and enforce it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingersmom Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 I have lived in many "liberal" cities and I have never heard of people viewing porn at the library. Where do you live? I can't imagine you are the only citizen worried about porn at the library. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 In my experience, libraries are hotbeds of gawkers (they get on the other side of the shelf and hope to get a panty-view if you squat to get a book on the lower shelf), accidental bumpers, followers, and (in one memorable day when I had my flip flops off while sitting at a table) "unloaders". Part of the joys of being middle aged and frumpy is that no longer happens to me! Teens need to be warned about this, and be alert to let staff know. I have friends who work in libraries and they are aware the problem. Could you ask for some computers in the kids area? For kids? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oak Knoll Mom Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 The thought hasn't even crossed my mind that this could happen in our library. I will be finding out their policy. I was looking through some old threads and saw that you and I are in the same county. I had the same thought as you while reading this thread so I checked the library website. Chatting and porn are not allowed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRAAB Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 I just love our little community library. I'm more appreciative than ever, right now. Janet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msjones Posted June 20, 2009 Author Share Posted June 20, 2009 I haven't read all the replies, but I agree with the ones I read discussing the problems with installing filters on all the computers. Now speaking as a librarian.... You might start by simply asking them what their policy is regarding pornography and computer use. They may very well have a policy in place already. If that is the case, the issue then is trying to enforce the policy. This is so much easier said than done. It is difficult to patrol a large bank of computers for infractions of the computer use policies. If you find that they do have a policy, and you have still seen people breaking the rules, then please DO let them know you have seen this happening and that it concerns you because anyone walking by can see these images. Point out HOW it breaks their policy, and ask for them to consider more monitoring of infractions of the use policy. It is important here to keep the focus on the fact that people are breaking policy -- not just the fact that it is porn and offensive to you. If they don't have such a policy in place, inquire as to why not. If they tell you it has to do with no censorship or something like that, then you are probably out of luck on getting them to institute such a policy, but you are not out of options for addressing the issue entirely! Find out to whom complaints should go, then IN WRITING explain that you have seen these images on computers, state which computers. Explain your concern that any public walking can see these images, and ask them to consider either relocating the computers in such a way so that the images are not viewable by passing public traffic. I wish you luck on this one. FWIW, at my library the usage policy clearly states that the computers may not be used to view or download any material that falls under the fair definition of pornography. The policy even cites the provincial definition. We do not apply any filters because they are problematic, especially for patrons seeking medical information. However, our computers are situated in such a way that I can see every single screen from the main desk. We have caught people before and their computer priviledges are revoked permanently upon the first infraction. You've pretty much summed up the situation at our libraries. The policy is 'no porn.' The policy is also 'no filters,' 'no supervision,' 'no patron history of internet use.' The librarian I spoke to said it is nearly impossible to enforce. I appreciate their dilemma -- I really do. And I appreciate the need many patrons have for non-pornographic, non-filtered internet use. But the fact remains, our publicly funded libraries are widely used for viewing porn (anecdotal here -- this is based on my observation and remarks from other parents), and I want the problem addressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 (see interpolations below) You've pretty much summed up the situation at our libraries. The policy is 'no porn.' So what are the consequences written into the policy for when porn is deliberately brought onto the computer screen by the library patron ? The policy is also 'no filters,' 'no supervision,' 'no patron history of internet use.' If there are no stipulated consequences, the result is a policy with a built-in inconsistency. Enforcement of the "no porn" clause is impossible. . . . (Have I missed some needed detail somewhere ?) The librarian I spoke to said it is nearly impossible to enforce. I appreciate their dilemma -- I really do. And I appreciate the need many patrons have for non-pornographic, non-filtered internet use. I think everybody here agrees with that. But the fact remains, our publicly funded libraries are widely used for viewing porn (anecdotal here -- this is based on my observation and remarks from other parents), and I want the problem addressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Please accept my apology for the overly-large font size. I wanted to make sure my interpolations stood apart from the base text. After I sent the post, I wanted to shrink the size; however, the edit function does not include the access to font size. I'm sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KidsHappen Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 In my experience, libraries are hotbeds of gawkers (they get on the other side of the shelf and hope to get a panty-view if you squat to get a book on the lower shelf), accidental bumpers, followers, and (in one memorable day when I had my flip flops off while sitting at a table) "unloaders". Part of the joys of being middle aged and frumpy is that no longer happens to me! Teens need to be warned about this, and be alert to let staff know. I have friends who work in libraries and they are aware the problem. Could you ask for some computers in the kids area? For kids? I am almost afraid to ask, but what is an "unloader"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumping In Puddles Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 The librarian I spoke to said it is nearly impossible to enforce. I appreciate their dilemma -- I really do. But why? I really don't understand their dilemma at all. If you are caught viewing porn (by staff or patrons) you are to turn in your library card and leave the library. End of story. Patron refuses to leave after being caught? Call the police. The patron abused the library privilege and refuses to leave the property. After awhile of strictly enforcing this, the library won't be such an alluring place to view pornography. Or Chat for that matter. If it is policy that the computers are not to be used for chat or porn, then enforce it by asking the patron to leave the premises and turn in their library card. This way, filters don't have to be installed, and innocent people aren't subject to looking at pornography and people who are using chat are not taking up a computer for research. I am almost afraid to ask, but what is an "unloader"? I was afraid to ask :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandellie4 Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 (edited) I'm coming in late to this conversation, but we have this problem at our library, too. I only go in there when needed and often alone, just to pick up books and materials. Men will be looking at porn in plain view, and then trying to catch the eye of a woman who is passing by. The same thing happens at the bookstore in our town. Guys will look at porn mags (they're originally wrapped in plastic, but it gets removed easily) and then give lewd smiles to other people reading books and drinking coffee. People are *nasty.* Edited June 20, 2009 by sandellie4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KidsHappen Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 I have always loved my library but now I appreciate it even more. I use a very large library in a good size city with a sizable homeless population and as far as I know we do not have this problem. There are several computers on the main floor that only have access to the catalog. There are several more that have 15 minute limits. The kids computer are in the kids' wing of the library on the second floor. There are in the very front by the desk. I think that you have to sign in and log into the computers on the first and second floor. There is a large section of rows and rows of computers for adult use on the third floor. These are set up in the very front by the elevators, stairs and librarian's desk. You have to walk by these to get to the stacks. These computers are on the older fashioned school library desks with the woodern dividers. All of these computers have the screen filters. I don't know what our library's internet use policy is and I don't know if you have to sign in to use the computers on the third floor but I have walked by just about every computer in the library and I have never seen inappropriate material. I am not saying it doesn't happen just that I have never seen it and I spend a lot of time in the library. Regarding the homeless population, we have lots of homeless people in our library and I have never noticed them to be a problem either. The are sometimes seen sleeping in a chair, playing chess, or just wandering around but frequently they are reading. I often think that we must have the best read homeless population in America. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momofeat Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Oh Lord please tell me you are not saying what I think you are saying!! :eek: How gross is that!!! :ack2: Certainly men can be arrested for THAT!!! I mean, Pee Wee Herman was in an adult movie theatre and got arrested for ahem "making a mess" YIKES!! That is just disgusting beyong words... I think I'm going to go hurl now. Apparently it was hard to catch them at the right moment. No ID was required to use the computers, so they couldn't easily identify the person who had done it. I do not, however, remember all the details. It's been a few years since all this happened. I just remember my dh talking about it, and about how that was the #1 factor that eventually led to a filter--which the librarians have never regretted. As other posters have stated, many liberals are against any kinds of filters, and that is what my dh saw too. Almost all of the library employees are liberal, and they have very strong feelings about the individual's freedom to access any and all information. However, I think they've been pretty happy with the filter that dh was able to install, and they do not have the same problems they were having before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 You've pretty much summed up the situation at our libraries. The policy is 'no porn.' The policy is also 'no filters,' 'no supervision,' 'no patron history of internet use.' The librarian I spoke to said it is nearly impossible to enforce. I appreciate their dilemma -- I really do. And I appreciate the need many patrons have for non-pornographic, non-filtered internet use. But the fact remains, our publicly funded libraries are widely used for viewing porn (anecdotal here -- this is based on my observation and remarks from other parents), and I want the problem addressed. If the policy is no porn, then you need to take your complaint in writing to the top of the library -- the director and each member of the board. I would suggest that you spell out at least one, if not more, reasonable methods by which they might address the issue. I do not know how access to the computers is controlled at your library, but at mine, you MUST be a library member, and you MUST hand your card to me before signing on the the computer. If I catch you violating policy, I note it in your patron record, and if I revoke your computer priviledges that is noted, too. No one gets on those comps without a check first. (side note: I know some libraries that require you to be a member "in good standing" and won't even let patron with excessive fines log on). To deal with infractions you might suggest something like: - assign a librarian or other responsible staff member to patrol the computer banks at all times, looking only for infractions of policy. - require users to surrender a library card (or photo ID or something) before using the computers. This is helpful for addressing intentional damage to the computers, too. - install a remote monitoring system like VNC that can be set up on all stations as well as the main monitoring station. VNC allows one master station to view the screens of all slaves assigned to it. The master can even remotely shut down or disable a slave. A staff member would need to be assigned to do the monitoring. These are just a few things that I can think of, which I know that other libraries have done. THere are probably other options out there, but that's at least a start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KidsHappen Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 See, this - I don't get. "Nothing they could do" . ? How about kicking them out, revoking their library card, banning them from the building, whatever. The library owns the building (or rents it,whatever) and owns the computers - so why can't they make the rules? Just make a rule against it and enforce it. I think that often it is because the public library is owned by the public and therefore the public makes the rules and it seem that a great deal of the public is in favor of allowing this. :001_huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 I am almost afraid to ask, but what is an "unloader"? Right across my bare feet. I ran to the bathroom to wash it off, and he was gone when I was back.:glare: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 then enforce it by asking the patron to leave the premises and turn in their library card. Do they need a library card to come in and use the computers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyAberlin Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 The children's filters at my library block my homeschool yahoo group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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