Audrey Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Now that we're on to this next stage, I'm finding fewer curricula out there specifically for homeschoolers and even less that's secular. I remember the mind boggling array of products for K-4, but not now. So, I was wondering what were your best and worst picks for secular curricula for the logic stage (in any subject)! Why did you and/or your dc love or hate it? So far, my best pick is Oak Meadow (esp. Science and Social Studies). I like the flexibility and thought-provoking nature of it. I don't have a worst pick for logic stage ... yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunshine State Sue Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Best: Analytical Grammar Write Shop Lightning Literature Megawords Science Explorer Exploration Education TOPS Rocks & Minerals Math-U-See Singapore's Challenging Word Problems Worst: Art of Argument Not best/worst - somewhat respect but dislike: History Odyssey Noeo Science Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted June 14, 2009 Author Share Posted June 14, 2009 Best:Analytical Grammar Write Shop Lightning Literature Megawords Science Explorer Exploration Education TOPS Rocks & Minerals Math-U-See Singapore's Challenging Word Problems Worst: Art of Argument Not best/worst - somewhat respect but dislike: History Odyssey Noeo Science If you don't mind my asking, what about Analytical Grammar makes it one of your "best?" I've looked at it online, and it seems interesting, but there's not much to go on at the website and it seems so pricey (for me). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HollyDay Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Best: TT math GWG (with some caution - I wouldnt use this year after year) Winston Grammar Spelling Power NOEO Chemistry Visualize World Geo Artistic Pursuits (I've only used about 1/3 of this and so far it is secular) Jensen's Format Writing (again, havent used the entire text, but so far secular) Maybe DITHOR could be used secular. But you would have to omit whatever discussion questions bothered you and then, I am not sure it would be worth the effort. My only thinking is that you could select the books you want and apply what you want from the DITHOR guide. Again, not sure if that would even be a good fit MUS is okay - not a best and not a worst Not my Favorite: Lightning Lit WriteShop Cant think of too much else at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HollyDay Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Is LOF secular? I cant recall anything from the "pre- algebra" books. Word Roots was excellent for us as was MegaWords Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teacalm Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Successful: K12 history - Intermediate World History A and B K12 science - Earth Science, Life Science, and Physical Science K12 English - Intermediate A and B History of US - Hakim Analytical Grammar Symbol and Sense - Writing Instruction for the Middle Grades IEW TWSS Mosdos Literature CHalkdust PreAlgebra Literary Lessons from the Lord of the Rings So You Really Want to Learn Spanish, French Real Science 4 Kids Chemistry II Prentice Hall Science books Harcourt Brace Grade 6 science Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Our worst was Winston Grammar. Ugh. Our best was Easy Grammar. We liked Writing Strands and Saxon math; we just had been hsing long before they were published, and by the time they came along, we were almost finished (one dd) or were doing c.c. (other dd) and so we didn't *need* to finish them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunshine State Sue Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 If you don't mind my asking, what about Analytical Grammar makes it one of your "best?" I've looked at it online, and it seems interesting, but there's not much to go on at the website and it seems so pricey (for me). IMO, it's worth every penny. You can read my review here. This thread addresses the expense of AG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunshine State Sue Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Is LOF secular? About 99% secular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa B Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Favorites: Michael Clay Thompson Language Arts Sequential Spelling Singapore Math Dolciani Math Oak Meadow History Odyssey Real Science 4 Kids Things that have not worked for us: Galore Park materials - especially Latin and English Hake grammar Growing with Grammar Things by a religious publisher that seem secular/nearly secular and I really like: First Start French IEW (some materials) TRISMS Excellence in Literature Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcconnellboys Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 I don't know that I have anything with which I've been unhappy. Math - Singapore; Key to series; MUS; we're using a book called Real World Algebra right now and like it, too.... Spelling - Spelling Workout Handwriting - Getty-Dubay Italics Writing - WordSmith Apprentice; McGraw Hill's Spectrum Writing; Writing Strands Literature - I found a bunch of stuff online last year for covering literary elements. I posted about these recently in a lit thread. Geography - Which Way, USA?; BF guides and maps with Holling books; various geography workbooks (Map Skills for Today, etc.) Latin - Latin Primer/Grammar series. Sometimes has references to God, but I don't recall anything particularly religious about it. History - SOTW, various encyclopedias and tons of library books. Science - tend to use a living books approach for it, too, along with worksheets found online. Using MSNucleus.org site as "spine" for next year, but they have all areas of science for middle schoolers. Used a free, online program "Lab of Mr. Q", for biology topical review and reinforcement last year. Used Mind Benders last year, for the second time around. I have yet to find a secular logic program, though, to teach formal logic.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 About 99% secular.Ay, there's the rub. The characters are Christian and Bible references are made (most commonly referencing the Ten Commandments). There's a rather bizarre interlude in one of the Algebra books in which a pastor describes a problem with a sermon to Fred and "cleans" it up by relating virgins (presumably from a Bible story) to batteries. The afterlife is occasionally referenced (most memorably when Fred's pet llama dies). Two of Fred's friends get pre-marital counseling with their pastor. But there's no preaching. I love Fred and frequently recommend it, but it's at the very edge of my comfort level. FWIW, there's very little in the way of Christian content in Fractions and Decimals & Percents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Sue, I really like the way you started off the structure of this discussion. It is very helpful. Ay, there's the rub. The characters are Christian and Bible references are made (most commonly referencing the Ten Commandments). There's a rather bizarre interlude in one of the Algebra books in which a pastor describes a problem with a sermon to Fred and "cleans" it up by relating virgins (presumably from a Bible story) to batteries. The afterlife is occasionally referenced (most memorably when Fred's pet llama dies). Two of Fred's friends get pre-marital counseling with their pastor. But there's no preaching. I love Fred and frequently recommend it, but it's at the very edge of my comfort level. FWIW, there's very little in the way of Christian content in Fractions and Decimals & Percents.Moira, I really appreciate the detail that you went into on this. I didn't think to even worry about LOF. Wow, I wonder why people feel the need to put religion in a math program? Now I have another iffy program in the back of my mind. Is it worth worrying about it and reading ahead of time in order to discuss it with DD, or better just to forget about it? ::sigh Does everyone else go through this complicated thought process over "borderline" curricula? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Wow, I didn't know there was anything religious about Life of Fred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bookworm Mom Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Life of Fred Fractions: My dd (age 7) is using this and on p. 74 in the "your turn to play" section: 3. The "number of the beast" as mentioned in the Book of Revelation is 666. What is peculiar is that when 666 is written in Roman numerals, it uses all the basic symbols except M. Express 666 in Roman numerals. I about fell out of my chair! She was clueless and just did the problem. I still like the program...just can't stand this type of thing in a math book! Haven't seen anything in the decimals book that has made me cringe in quite the same way. Lise (who is pretty new here and loving these boards) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Moira, I really appreciate the detail that you went into on this. I didn't think to even worry about LOF. Wow, I wonder why people feel the need to put religion in a math program? Now I have another iffy program in the back of my mind. I've seen LoF referenced as secular on more than one occasion (though not by Schmidt), and was rather surprised on perusing Beginning Algebra to find it wasn't. I don't know why exactly, but the books don't get my hackles up. Perhaps I give them a pass because of the fictional aspect. Is it worth worrying about it and reading ahead of time in order to discuss it with DD, or better just to forget about it? ::sigh Does everyone else go through this complicated thought process over "borderline" curricula?I found nothing worth clarifying to DD the Elder in the first two books (there were references to the number of the beast; the Ten Commandments; and a rather amusing story with Fred imagining himself in Heaven being thanked by generations of people he'd read to as children). For the rest of the books, I think I'll just explain that the author and characters are Christian, just like many authors we read are Christian and write about Christian characters. I've read the texts minutely and don't see anything that even hints people *should* be Christian, or that there's anything wrong with not being Christian; I have a highly sensitive radar when it comes to this... though I admit that Fred might just be my weak spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 I've seen LoF referenced as secular on more than one occasion (though not by Schmidt), and was rather surprised on perusing Beginning Algebra to find it wasn't. I don't know why exactly, but the books don't get my hackles up. Perhaps I give them a pass because of the fictional aspect. I found nothing worth clarifying to DD the Elder in the first two books (there were references to the number of the beast; the Ten Commandments; and a rather amusing story with Fred imagining himself in Heaven being thanked by generations of people he'd read to as children). For the rest of the books, I think I'll just explain that the author and characters are Christian, Thanks for even more information. Of course she will be able to understand that the author has different beliefs than us by the time she gets to the the higher level books. :cool: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 :lurk5: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 :lurk5: I am glad I am not the only one with young kids hanging out on this thread. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Thanks for even more information. Of course she will be able to understand that the author has different beliefs than us by the time she gets to the the higher level books. :cool: I think I'm close to putting my finger it -- Schmidt is just being himself; he's earnest without being judgmental or preachy... just the way I like my friends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 I am glad I am not the only one with young kids hanging out on this thread. :tongue_smilie: Believe me, I need a five year head-start. Bill :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted June 15, 2009 Author Share Posted June 15, 2009 IMO, it's worth every penny. You can read my review here. This thread addresses the expense of AG. Thanks, Sue! :001_smile: I'm still going to have to think about it more, but your review (and the price explanation) have pushed me a little closer to AG for my ds, who really likes grammar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keptwoman Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Best: Analytical Grammar Singapore NSM Maths Getty Dubay Italic Writers Jungle Worst: History Odyssey (very thorough and excellent reading selections but rather boring) Sue from St Pete: Why did you not like Art of Argument? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IATeachingMom Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 :lurk5: Have a ways to go, but I always like to be ahead of the game! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunshine State Sue Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 (edited) Sue from St Pete: Why did you not like Art of Argument? See this thread. FWIW: I think Karenciavo does a great job of explaining in depth about AoA. Edited June 15, 2009 by Sue in St Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keptwoman Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 (edited) Thanks for the link, I'll check it out :) eta: UG. Blurgh. Urg. Sigh, OK starting another thread about Secular Logic so as not to derail this one. Edited June 15, 2009 by keptwoman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Worst:History Odyssey (very thorough and excellent reading selections but rather boring) What are you doing instead? :bigear: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Best: K12's Human Odyssey world history series, Jacobs Algebra, Singapore Math, A History of US, Conceptual Physical Science-Explorations Don't have any worsts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keptwoman Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 What are you doing instead? :bigear: I understand the argument for the way TWTM suggests history, and if you want that approach then HO is an excellent choice, but I want the kids to enjoy and be inspired by history, not be bored by it. So I've abandoned that kind of history for more of the fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants type. We are making it up as we go along, lots of reading, reference books where needed and the odd written up report on what has been learnt. So far it's working and J is enjoying it and learning much more. I do look longingly at more formal stuff, but it just doesn't work for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matryoshka Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 I'm thinking of 6-8, as my older two are risling 6th graders, and in 4th and 5th a lot of the stuff (Singapore, Getty-Dubay) carried over. Here are some of the things I'm hoping will get us through the middle school years: K12 Human Odyssey CPO Science Michael Clay Thompson LA LOF math (mention of a preacher, as long as it's not preachy, does not disqualify it for me ;)) And if anyone does have a source for a good secular logic, please do let me know! Every time I see a new title mentioned I get all excited and check it out, only to find out that it is Christian. :glare: I'm this close to buying the Kreeft book and trying to parse it (someone please don't tell me that one isn't secular too). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 And if anyone does have a source for a good secular logic, please do let me know! Every time I see a new title mentioned I get all excited and check it out, only to find out that it is Christian. :glare: I'm this close to buying the Kreeft book and trying to parse it (someone please don't tell me that one isn't secular too).I think I'm about to order the the first few middle school books from IMACS Elements of Mathematics series. EM used to be available as a correspondence course. Unfortunately this option has been discontinued; however, it continues to be used as a classroom curriculum, and the texts are still available for purchase. Two of the modules I'll be getting are "Introductory Logic" and "Logic and Sets" -- both appropriate for bright middle schoolers. I'll let you know how they look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Best: Galore Park Latin Prep, So You Really Want to Learn English, SY French, RE; LOF; Philosophy for Kids (White); LL7 Worst: Nothing really. ETA: yes, that is an RE programme in a secular list. We study the bible for cultural knowledge and as a starting point for discussion - the Galore Park book is perfect for that. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunshine State Sue Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Worst: History Odyssey (very thorough and excellent reading selections but rather boring) :iagree: I understand the argument for the way TWTM suggests history, and if you want that approach then HO is an excellent choice, but I want the kids to enjoy and be inspired by history, not be bored by it. :iagree: What are you doing instead? :bigear: I am trying to convince dh and ds to use History at our House. Wish me luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willowcreek Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Since I needed a science for my seventh grader (as I was teaching the younger ones and had my hands full) we used K12 life science and physical science. It was a good option--I knew what the curriculum was based on (Core Knowledgge) and it was assuredly secular. He did lots of outside science reading on his own--self-motivated to do that. I think it does cover the bases toward HS science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiobrain Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 For History, what about "History at our House"? Not a book.... but I know that it is totally secular. I have soon to be 4th & 5th graders (how did that happen!) and here is some stuff I will be using.... L.A.: MCT LA series (these are really excellent! especially if you & kids are visual types), AAS when I finish that I will most likely go back to Sequential spelling, writing: a few of the "arrow" and freewriting from bravewriter, letting my boys have a web page on my blog whenever I start one. Math: Singapore w/ key to... and starting LoF, Adventures of Penrose the Mathmatical Cat, Murderous Maths Science: Dr. Arts guide to science, The Way Life Works, ring of fire. I am winging it on science this year. I refuse to buy another science program! I will try HAOH this year and I have all the horrible histories and dead famous books. Also various Learning through History magazines. I have become a bit of a secular snob, in that I can't tolerate much "extra curricular" in each subject. I used to modify a bit, but I still seemed to be able to avoid it, as the way those curriculum tend to be laid out was never appealing to me. Now I just can't tolerate it. :tongue_smilie: There are plenty of people who will buy that stuff anyway.... I look forward to some more suggestions... Korin who does not know how to make those little signature lines so many of you have:confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 who does not know how to make those little signature lines so many of you have:confused: Then click on 'edit signature'. Best wishes Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanagnostos Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Good: All About Spelling Saxon Math IEW Not So Good: Easy Grammar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunshine State Sue Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 eta: UG. Blurgh. Urg. Sigh, OK starting another thread about Secular Logic so as not to derail this one. :willy_nilly: Good luck. I've almost given up. I bought Critical Thinking by Anita Harnadek (definitely secular), but found that it is more geared towards group/class discussion. I suspect it will not work well with 1 mom and 1 monosyllabic teen. Sigh! It is my understanding that the Kreeft book suggested is for adults, not logic stage students. I could be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bella_gitana Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 I am trying to convince dh and ds to use History at our House. Wish me luck! We did HAOH and it was a big hit, so it is on the list for next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nukeswife Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 I will have a 5th grader this year, so I've been watching this thread with great interest. I'm so greatful to you all for your wonderful suggestions. We do enjoy History odyssey, but are still in the level 1 stuff so we'll see how it goes once we hit level 2. I do want to thank you all for your great lists. I have been hearing about AG and JAG for about a year now but the name made me shy away. For some reason to me the name made it sound like it would be difficult and time intensive. Well I finally clicked on one of your links to the AG website and looked at samples and watched the videos and it's just what I've been looking for. I was all set to do easy grammar but didn't like the "no diagramming" aspect of it. I have now ordered JAG and can't wait to get it in my hands. Thanks again to all for your great lists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 ring of fire. I was under the impression that Ring of Fire was young earth, (WP usees it) am I wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in SEVA Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 :lurk5: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemykids Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 We did HAOH and it was a big hit, so it is on the list for next year. Can you tell us more about it? What made it a hit? :lurk5: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunshine State Sue Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 HoaH: Can you tell us more about it? What made it a hit? Yes, please do tell. I need to have something more than I gather he's a gifted history teacher and it's not boring to sell it do dh and ds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Bay Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 For secular curricula grades 5-8 our family's best and worst: Worst: Saxon Math (my eldest did this for part of those years) Teaching Textbook Algebra 1 (please, no flames, it was just a really bad fit here) Best: Singapore Math and MEP Russian Math from Perpendicular Press (doing it after SM 6) RS4K Chemistry (neutral, so secular) my normally science hating dd likes RS4K Biology, too, so that makes it a hit. Dolciani 1965 Algebra 1 (for gr 8) Gelfand's Algebra There are other things we liked and disliked, but either I can't think of it right now, it wasn't best/worst or it wasn't secular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Bay Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Wow, I didn't know there was anything religious about Life of Fred. I didn't, either, until now. I'm still going to get one of them. While I am Christian, I don't care for theology (and heaven, etc does get into theology) in the books. I don't care about scriptures, just the interpretation, which is why we use so many secular books. Not that they're all free of things we don't care for, either, but it simplifies things most of the time. Especially in math. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiobrain Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 In regards to Ring of Fire... I bought 2 of the discs *used* and they are on the rock cycle and earth science. They seem to be secular, but I haven't really delved into them, so maybe I am in for a shock. I hope not. I plan on selling them again anyway so it is no big deal. I like a lot of the literature selections in WP, and have used their IGs on occasion (in a totally warped way)... and other than a few overtly creationist books, can be secularized. I can't wait to do HAOH. I am doing the MP3 classes, not live... I still have to talk my husband in to the expense, but that is no big deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa B Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 For History, what about "History at our House"? We tried this for a few weeks and my kids did not enjoy it. They do not like lectures at all. They found it slow and did not enjoy the interaction with other students. (Not that they do not generally enjoy interaction with others. :)) but he would ask a question, there would be a pause, finally someone would answer, the child would need to be acknowledged, pause for another answer, child to be acknowledged, an explaination on why this might not be correct. And he would repeat lots of information within the lecture and from lecture to lecture. All of these things are very standard procedure for a lecture and a classroom discussion. There was nothing at all wrong with how it was done and he does a good job of trying to keep it interesting. But, it moves slowly. My girls would do other work while listening. And when I would ask them questions on it I could see the struggle in them not to roll their eyes when they answered. And I would get a response along the lines of "Mom, he said it eight times, but if you really want me to tell you......." These were the upper elementary classes, so he may move faster at the higher levels. And he may move through more material nearer the end of the year. I dropped the program in the second month. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swimmermom3 Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 I am trying to convince dh and ds to use History at our House. Wish me luck! I am not looking at this site. I had wanted to ask Keptwoman about her plans and now you (Sue in St. Pete) pop in here with this new site, which I am not going to look at. I think the lawn needs trimming with scissors:leaving: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Can someone explain if there is an "Objectivist" (the philosophy of Ayn Rand) "world-view" in History at Our House? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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