At the end of my rope, what math for this kid?

[foxbridgeacademy]

DD (turns 14 next week) is a rising Freshman and has yet to finish Pre-Algebra. We've tried a lot of different curriculum over the years and she has hated them all (except Beast Academy but only because of the comic book style, still hated the math).  She is diagnosed ADD and probably has a mild version of dyscalculia. She struggles to remember how to do long division and fractions but so did/do I sometimes. She wants to work independently (or at least not with me) but rarely gets anything done when she's doing it alone.  I don't have a lot of money to spend on this, $150 tops so things like Derek Owens or online courses are out.  I do think she needs something with some kind of outside accountability with graded assignments.

 

Things that have bombed

Khan Academy

Teaching Textbooks

CLE

Math Mammoth

Acellus (costs to much but worked better than most) 

and currently Saxon. 

 

 

Any ideas?

 

[Pen]

Math U See?

 

Return again to something you already have on hand and have her try it again?

 

How far through TT or Khan Academy pre-algebra did she get?

 

In your area would going to local public school just for math be possible?  Especially if maybe she could get an iep for dyscaculia etc.?

 

Might she do better working on geometry and then return to pre-algebra and algebra next year?

 

Could your ds work with her?

[Pen]

On the things that did not work, what was the problem--and if any part of any of those did work well, what?  And on Acellus, which I am not familiar with, what worked well?

[Jann in TX]

Have you had her officially diagnosed with dyscalculia?

 

Dyscalculia is something that, unlike traditional dyslexia which is associated with the reading and processing of written words, has very little research in methods to effectively remediate.  Often people with dyscalculia (after intervention) will 'top out' somewhere in arithmetic-- with 4th grade math being considered a typical plateau.  People with dyscalculia have more than a difficulty with math-- they are unable to process mathematical concepts and will get 'lost' in multi-step problems (like long division)-- and will not be able to work through the abstract concepts of Algebra... Dyscalculia is not an issue of IQ.  Many people with dyscalculia will be able to mimic short term processes-- show me a problem and I'll do the same steps if you change the numbers--but will not be able to independently derive a solution as they will not have an understanding/ability to understand the concepts needed.

 

Dyscalculia is not to be confused with a generalized learning disability in Math.  My oldest dd has 'high functioning autism (Aspergers) and high school math was very difficult-- but not impossible-- for her.  It took her 2 years to complete Algebra 1 and another 2 to complete Algebra 2.  With all of her struggles she had no signs of dyscalculia.

 

If your daughter has dyscalculia then a program like Saxon would be impossible-- she would not be able to put the pieces together.  The other programs you mentioned would also be extremely difficult as they were designed for students with 'typical' processing and reasoning skills.

 

My suggestion would be to have her formally evaluated-- if she does have dyscalculia then there are accommodations that can be made (for future math and science requirements).  In this situation working with a trained teacher/instructor one-on-one would give her the most support.  Since funds are tight, you might look for someone to meet with occasionally who can guide you in making a plan of action so your daughter can reach her potential.

 

Recently there have been many breakthroughs in regards to dyslexia remediation/retraining.  Hopefully there will soon be some in the related area of dyscalculia.

 

 

[foxbridgeacademy]

Math U See?

 

Return again to something you already have on hand and have her try it again?

 

How far through TT or Khan Academy pre-algebra did she get?

 

In your area would going to local public school just for math be possible?  Especially if maybe she could get an iep for dyscaculia etc.?

 

Might she do better working on geometry and then return to pre-algebra and algebra next year?

 

Could your ds work with her?

I was just looking at Math U See before I came to ask about options.... I don't think it will work, she is easily distracted/zones out.

 

As for TT/Khan she didn't get very far because again the ADD is a big issue.  Even medicated she's got the attention span of a gnat when it comes to math.

 

No PS isn't an option here but there is an in person 1X a week class that uses TT and costs $350 :glare:

 

DS has tried to work with her but she doesn't understand the way he explains it. (he's a natural at math but is dyslexic) 

 

On the things that did not work, what was the problem--and if any part of any of those did work well, what?  And on Acellus, which I am not familiar with, what worked well?

Mainly she can't remember and then gets frustrated and distracted.

 

Have you had her officially diagnosed with dyscalculia?

 

Dyscalculia is something that, unlike traditional dyslexia which is associated with the reading and processing of written words, has very little research in methods to effectively remediate.  Often people with dyscalculia (after intervention) will 'top out' somewhere in arithmetic-- with 4th grade math being considered a typical plateau.  People with dyscalculia have more than a difficulty with math-- they are unable to process mathematical concepts and will get 'lost' in multi-step problems (like long division)-- and will not be able to work through the abstract concepts of Algebra... Dyscalculia is not an issue of IQ.  Many people with dyscalculia will be able to mimic short term processes-- show me a problem and I'll do the same steps if you change the numbers--but will not be able to independently derive a solution as they will not have an understanding/ability to understand the concepts needed.

 

Dyscalculia is not to be confused with a generalized learning disability in Math.  My oldest dd has 'high functioning autism (Aspergers) and high school math was very difficult-- but not impossible-- for her.  It took her 2 years to complete Algebra 1 and another 2 to complete Algebra 2.  With all of her struggles she had no signs of dyscalculia.

 

If your daughter has dyscalculia then a program like Saxon would be impossible-- she would not be able to put the pieces together.  The other programs you mentioned would also be extremely difficult as they were designed for students with 'typical' processing and reasoning skills.

 

My suggestion would be to have her formally evaluated-- if she does have dyscalculia then there are accommodations that can be made (for future math and science requirements).  In this situation working with a trained teacher/instructor one-on-one would give her the most support.  Since funds are tight, you might look for someone to meet with occasionally who can guide you in making a plan of action so your daughter can reach her potential.

 

Recently there have been many breakthroughs in regards to dyslexia remediation/retraining.  Hopefully there will soon be some in the related area of dyscalculia.

No diagnosis, literally can not afford it.  

 

The way you describe dyscalculia is pretty much spot on except she does okay with some algebra concepts, the ones that are more puzzle like, so maybe not actual dyscalculia?.  If it requires her to remember a step by step process gone over many times before, she struggles.  I just really need to get her to a place where she can get a 19 on the math portion of her ACT (in 3-4 years). Literally that's it.  The math required for her likely major is at about a 10th grade level (alg 1 and  Alg 2). A real bonus would be if she could pass the College Mathematics CLEP then she wouldn't have to take any other math in College.

 

She doesn't have any other learning or cognitive issues and is crazy smart, she studies chaos theory, black holes, nihilism, fx makeup, and global warming (to name a few) for fun. I just want to make sure she has the opportunity to do what she wants in life and for that she needs a 19 on the ACT Math.

Edited June 12, 2017 by foxbridgeacademy

[Janeway]

Try Math U See.

[foxbridgeacademy]

Try Math U See.

how long are the lessons? Anything more than 10 minutes and there's no way she'd still be "tuned in".

[Jann in TX]

 

"...If it requires her to remember a step by step process gone over many times before, she struggles..." 

Well-- you just described a dyslexic (and probable dyscalculia) student.  Dyslexia runs in families and your son has it...so chances are she does too. 

 

A very high percentage of dyslexic people also have dyscalculia to some degree---almost all people with dyscalculia have marked dyslexia.  The current consensus is that they are one in the same-- with dyslexia being the main/general processing disorder and dyscalculia being one of many subsets of that.  My middle dd has dyslexia and has studied it extensively while working on her masters degree in cognitive linguistics...

 

Check out your state resources- some states will pay for testing even for homeschooled students.  Getting a written diagnosis can give her accommodations --even if it is just more time when taking tests like the ACT that can still help move your dd towards her goal.

 

I'll also repeat what I said in the previous post-- dyslexia/dyscalculia has nothing to do with intelligence-- in fact most of the dyslexic people I know are what I would call highly intelligent if not gifted! 

[MerryAtHope]

I was just looking at Math U See before I came to ask about options.... I don't think it will work, she is easily distracted/zones out.

 

What about MUS makes you think it wouldn't work? 

 

 

how long are the lessons? Anything more than 10 minutes and there's no way she'd still be "tuned in".

 

The videos are generally short (often around 5 minutes). I don't think we encountered any longer ones until one of the higher levels (Some in Alg. 2, or maybe in Geometry were longer, many were not). The black & white pages are very uncluttered (visually easy to track with/use, not distracting). The manipulative/hands-on aspect is helpful for some kids with ADHD though for the higher math levels wouldn't be necessary if they were distracting to her. 

 

I'm also curious about why the others didn't work--I think identifying what's not working and why is going to help you find a solution. I think merely "not liking math" can't be a strong consideration (some kids aren't going to like it no matter what you use)--in those cases it's a matter of finding the "least offensive" solution that can get you through the math. Needing incremental steps--MUS would help there. In the majority of cases it's pretty incremental (and your daughter could even call MUS to have someone help talk her through to continue taking you out of the equation if she didn't understand something.) But anyway, if you can list what didn't work about what you've tried, that might help people help you identify something that could potentially work better. I hope you find something!

[laundrycrisis]

ALEKS. It's great for our son because there are no videos to watch. The pie shows your progress. The review is good. And it adapts so you get the right amount of practice.

Edited June 12, 2017 by laundrycrisis

[JanetC]

If you suspect a learning disability, you need to get an ed-psych evaluation and understand exactly what you are dealing with, rather than jumping from curriculum to curriculum. You can't remediate what you don't understand.

 

If you are in a state where home schools can get access to school services, you may be able to get a basic evaluation at your local school for free. If not, you may need to hunt. If you have a doctor, ask for a referral to someone who can charge you on a sliding scale. Look for a support group for learning disabilities and ask there. (There's an online community at dyslexicadvantage.org, but it's not free.) If she's gifted, maybe her IQ qualifies her for a gifted and talented program and you can access 2E support through that?

 

Our local math remediator uses Math U See quite a bit, but she tutors it. I'm not sure it's a good fit for a child who liked Beast Academy. If she enjoys gifted curriculum MUS might feel like it's talking down to her.

 

She really sounds like she needs individual attention. In a group class, she's one of a kind and won't fit into the flow. But you don't have the budget to hire a one-on-one tutor. As much as you want to outsource, I'm not sure it's possible.

Edited June 12, 2017 by JanetC

[Pen]

I was just looking at Math U See before I came to ask about options.... I don't think it will work, she is easily distracted/zones out.

 

As for TT/Khan she didn't get very far because again the ADD is a big issue.  Even medicated she's got the attention span of a gnat when it comes to math.

 

No PS isn't an option here but there is an in person 1X a week class that uses TT and costs $350 :glare:

 

DS has tried to work with her but she doesn't understand the way he explains it. (he's a natural at math but is dyslexic) 

 

Mainly she can't remember and then gets frustrated and distracted.

 

No diagnosis, literally can not afford it.  

 

The way you describe dyscalculia is pretty much spot on except she does okay with some algebra concepts, the ones that are more puzzle like, so maybe not actual dyscalculia?.  If it requires her to remember a step by step process gone over many times before, she struggles.  I just really need to get her to a place where she can get a 19 on the math portion of her ACT (in 3-4 years). Literally that's it.  The math required for her likely major is at about a 10th grade level (alg 1 and  Alg 2). A real bonus would be if she could pass the College Mathematics CLEP then she wouldn't have to take any other math in College.

 

She doesn't have any other learning or cognitive issues and is crazy smart, she studies chaos theory, black holes, nihilism, fx makeup, and global warming (to name a few) for fun. I just want to make sure she has the opportunity to do what she wants in life and for that she needs a 19 on the ACT Math.

 

 

Is she behind/on board with the goal for 19 on ACT math and other goals?  If so, maybe the connection can be explained to her and she would be more able to work on the math however much disliked it is, but as a necessary thing to reach her goal?

 

But also, do try to get some evaluation going--it may not be specific to say "dyscalculia" but whatever your local school district can do (send a letter requesting this), to try to be able to get some help for her now, and possibly accommodations for later.

 

Maybe it would even be worth a short term enrollment in the school if that is the only way she could get an evaluation and help.

 

It sounded like $350 is over your budget, but if it is something you can swing, maybe the live help and TT would work.

 

For the types of problems she cannot recall how to do, could she review how to do them and make a page that gives herself the steps and then be allowed to use the steps help sheet while working?

 

how long are the lessons? Anything more than 10 minutes and there's no way she'd still be "tuned in".

 

How about having her work for 10 minutes on task several times per day?  Whatever program she uses.  And maybe try to work up from that to longer.

 

 

Edited June 12, 2017 by Pen

[Mike in SA]

Honestly, it sounds like she needs more 1-on-1 attention.  Independent learning is not going to work.

 

When the steps of a procedure don't sink in, it's also time to turn to conceptual gaps.  In this, I don't mean formulae and sequences - many kids with dyscalcula struggle with procedural approaches.  What we have done in the past with students we have tutored included pulling out Legos as manipulatives, using muscle memory, and simply providing lots of extra time.

 

TT, MM or MUS may be your best choices (Math-U-See probably the most accessible of the three).  Unless the dyscalcula is very minor, I wouldn't begin to consider the extreme curricula.  Those others may have bombed in the past, but bouncing around isn't likely to help.

Edited June 12, 2017 by Mike in SA

[FriedClams]

Whatever you decide, I encourage you to sit and do math with her every day. I do this with my kids. I have a notebook, they have a notebook, and we work side by side. I can help with a specific problem quickly (and not get distracted...have to look it up...remember the concept....etc) and resolve the issue immediately. I can tell if problems are confusing or poorly worded (I take the tests also), and what concept the publisher is trying to teach. Math also becomes something we tackle together, not something I do TO them. It takes less time and I know exactly where they are in skills. It's so worth the investment. And if our kids were in a traditional school and expected to teach themselves math, my word it would get some people fired!!

Edited June 12, 2017 by FriedClams

[prairiewindmomma]

One of mine has dyscalculia. MUS is what I recommend. Think about math as math sessions. If her attention span is 10 min., then do 4 10 min sessions a day. Popping up to have her change loads of laundry or to unload the dishwasher is often a sufficient enough break between sessions.

 

I have additional thoughts about the need to remediate (do a CLE placement test) and about evaluations but as you don't seem open to that....

 

My best advice is to work side by side with your child. Every day. Plan to be at the sitting at elbow stage.

[prairiewindmomma]

ETA (can't edit from phone): I only recommend MUS for struggling high school level students/classes. I suspect she will place lower in CLE--and I would urge you to go where she is placed in CLE and work forward.

[Pistachio mom]

I use BJ Press Math because of the conceptual approach. It is hard, but explained well. The teacher edition shows every step of every equation. We just finished geometry. Realistically, a teacher could compare the table of contents with another course and choose to skip the harder sections for a struggling student. The publisher also has recommendations for teaching at 3 levels:  basic, standard, and advanced. It is easily adapted up and down.

 

BJ Press also has an online option for lectures that go with the book. I like the post above about working side by side with the student. I have to do this with my non-math daughter. Since she is used to this math, we plan to continue it up through Algebra 2. The problem solving included is (IMO) helpful for SAT prep.

 

http://www.bjupresshomeschool.com/product/421560

 

We tried to combine the Thinkwell online course with the BJ books. It did not work because the BJ was so much more rigorous.

 

But the Thinkwell professor is fabulous, and it might be a realistic option for your student. Homeschool Buyers Coop has sales on Thinkwell just about every month. A year's access for about $70. This might be worth investigating for you. Thinkwell even allows a free trial so you can check out the program and hear lectures.

https://www.homeschoolbuyersco-op.org/thinkwell/

https://www.homeschoolbuyersco-op.org/thinkwell-testimonials-all/

http://www.thinkwellhomeschool.com/

[Jilly]

My son sounds very similar to your daughter. We have tried many of the programs mentioned here and most did not work for him. What we ended up using towards the end of this year was the Key to series. We are working through the books slowly and I have to be there teaching the material to him as we go through it. He seems to be grasping the concepts and is starting to make some progress. 

[foxbridgeacademy]

nm

 

Edited June 12, 2017 by foxbridgeacademy

[foxbridgeacademy]

One of mine has dyscalculia. MUS is what I recommend. Think about math as math sessions. If her attention span is 10 min., then do 4 10 min sessions a day. Popping up to have her change loads of laundry or to unload the dishwasher is often a sufficient enough break between sessions.

 

I have additional thoughts about the need to remediate (do a CLE placement test) and about evaluations but as you don't seem open to that....

 

My best advice is to work side by side with your child. Every day. Plan to be at the sitting at elbow stage.

I can not afford evaluations, literally have no money for it, it would need to be free, I don't know how else to explain this so people understand... it's a choice between evaluations or food.  If I had the money we would do it in a second.  Right now I can't even afford a dentist or doctor.  Things will be getting better next year or two but until then... 

 

I do sit with her the entire time.  I don't do chores or look at my phone, we work problems and go over the concepts the entire time.

 

I was hoping for something different, with an online component that would explain better than I can.

[OneStepAtATime]

Kiddo with dyscalculia here.  

 

1.  My suggestion is to use the Ronit Bird books and ebooks but those may not be something you can swing financially.  They are specifically designed for dyscalculic students.  

2.  If you can get those, read through them yourself first then try implementing.  

3.  Keep lessons very, very, very short.  Do maybe two or three lessons a day but in 5-10 minute increments.  Plan on LOTS of review.  Once something is learned have her do a review problem daily.  Incorporate manipulatives and large body movement if she is willing.

4.  Maybe read David Sousa's "How the Brain Learns Mathematics"

5.  Accept that she may need to go back before she can go forward.  This was a hard one for me.  In 7th grade I had to start DD completely over with the very basic building blocks of math.  Although I had not really understood it until lovely ladies on the LC board helped walk me through her struggles, DD had never solidified her basic subitization skills.  She was building her math understanding and functionality on a house of sand.  Most people are born with these skills.  Dyscalculics are not.  They need to be explicitly taught.  In some instances over and over and over and over and over for years as they move through more advanced material.

6.  Pressure and time crunches are not going to help.  In fact, it can cause her to shut down.  Fight or flight mode with nowhere to go.  Her brain is not processing the data the way a Neurotypical person is.  She can't help that.  And adding in the ADD she is really fighting a serious uphill battle.  She may also have low working memory or low processing speed.  Getting through even just pre-algebra may end up being a huge task.  Although this is hard, without accommodations from an evaluation you might need to consider letting her take more time to graduate if math is a critical component.  She could be expanding her horizons in other areas while she moves through the math at a slower pace.

7.  She MIGHT do better with geometry.  How good is her visual spatial?

8.  If you want to see inside the head of someone with extreme dyscalculia and you have this at your local library, read My 13th Winter.

9.  Although some dysalculics can never truly comprehend Algebra (or even reading a clock or measurement, etc.), just like with dyslexia there is a range of functionality.  Also, their brains in this area often mature more slowly.  Doesn't mean your daughter will be able to do Calculus at 30 but she might be able to handle higher level math concepts further down the line.  What my daughter can do now, at 16, is vastly different from what she was able to understand even last year.  Exposure is part of it but brain maturity is also.  Concepts that weren't making any sense before are slowly starting to gel.

 

:grouphug:

Edited June 12, 2017 by OneStepAtATime

[OneStepAtATime]

Hoping curriculum isn't really going to help. by the way.  I have 400 zillion types of math curriculum.  While a combination of CLE/Beast Academy/Key to Fractions Decimals Percents/Math on the Level/CTC and other resources had various strengths that helped, it wasn't one program that worked.  It has been working through several with me gaining a better understanding myself so I could better explain things.  Also, working very slowly, doing a TON of targeted, systematic review, keeping lessons short, being exceedingly patient, very supportive, using various manipulatives and real world examples to give her brain something to anchor to, and being willing to look at outside the box approaches for specific issues.

 

For instance, DD could not get multi digit multiplication down.  It drove her crazy.  She could mimic me in the moment but she was NOT truly understanding and applying any knowledge.  A teacher at a special school for bright kids with learning challenges showed her the lattice method.  It was gobbldygook to me but after DD had practiced it a while it made all the difference.  She still needs to create and use a math chart for many of her multiplication tables but now she understands what she is doing and can remember all the processes for multidigit multiplication.

 

Same thing with division.  She ended up switching to partial quotient division.  

 

Do both of these processes take longer?  Yes.  To a NT person does it usually seem like the traditional ways are better?  Yeah.  But a dyscalculic does not have a traditional brain.  Look for outside the box answers to individual problems.  There is not going to be a magic math program that will address all of her struggles.  At least in all my years of research I have never found that perfect program.  Ronit Bird coupled with Dynamo Math comes closest for many things but they can be pricey.  

 

Anyway, sending hugs of support.  You might post on the LC board...

[Pistachio mom]

Have you looked at any right brain learning approaches to teaching math?  Using manipulatives/pictures/colors/wacky stories helps most learning styles, but from what I have read on Dianne Craft's website as well as other places - right brain learners do best with working with one type of math at a time. For example to work with just fractions before percents for several weeks, rather than the spiral approach many curriculae use might be a consideration. My oldest student had a dysgraphia issue that took time to work out using the brain training exercises. I do not know much about dyscalculia - but if your daughter responds well to visuals - it might be worth looking into some right brain learning techniques to help her develop understanding foundational concepts before too much more work on the procedures. My second daughter ( who is definitely a right brain learner) has the most solid understanding of math concepts. I think it is because we did everything with a base 10 set, fraction tiles, we made stories to remember order of operations, division procedure and stacked double digit/triple digit multiplication... We combine our curriculum with right brain "tweeking" to help her understand and remember. and Lots of review.  It is hard work, but very rewarding to see progress.

 

http://stores.diannecraft.org/7-right-brain-math-also-titled-dyscalculia-taming-the-math-monster/

http://www.diannecraft.org/right-brain-math/

 

I will say in my personal experience, the BJ math has done a great job in helping me teach for understanding before performance.  Their 7th grade math is a very solid review of all the elementary concepts in a pre-algebra type of way. It is challenging. I think it is called Fundamentals of Math. Older editions might be cheaper. But I highly recommend using a teacher edition with all the extra helps. If I were in your situation, knowing what I know about teaching, I would consider using a 7th grade general math as review whatever is needed for one semester, and then jump to a pre algebra course. You could even start prealgebra, with a plan to review something older for 15 minutes every school day. You would know best if this is appropriate. I would not want to go too far into pre-algebra if my student were still struggling with renaming fractions or estimating. If you have time for a summer break, it might be appropriate to work on just math to catch up.

 

I have friends who really like the Math with Fred series. I know they have upper elementary and jr high books that deal with just one type of math, such as fractions and decimals.  The books I have previewed do not do a good job explaining the concepts, but it is a good fit for some students. For one of my friends, switching to Fred math made a dramatic difference for her daughter. It might be worth checking out for the sake of review.

 

I wish you well as you research options.

Edited June 13, 2017 by Pistachio mom

[Pen]

I can not afford evaluations, literally have no money for it, it would need to be free, I don't know how else to explain this so people understand... it's a choice between evaluations or food.  If I had the money we would do it in a second.  Right now I can't even afford a dentist or doctor.  Things will be getting better next year or two but until then... 

 

I do sit with her the entire time.  I don't do chores or look at my phone, we work problems and go over the concepts the entire time.

 

I was hoping for something different, with an online component that would explain better than I can.

 

 

If you are in USA, I strongly urge you to make use of public school for whatever evaluations they can / will provide for FREE!!! (or at least not extra cost beyond taxes)--which depends some on state law, and often also just the kindness of local SPED type people. It will be less than you could get via private routes, but it would be free.  And it is likely to help to understand what is going on to some degree at least. And maybe to help with more ideas, or even actual help.  You could post on LC forum for help understanding how to make a request/demand for evaluations.

 

I also suggest that you make use of Khan Academy materials for free online help in explaining concepts, even if not using the problems there. And if you go back to the very beginning with Khan maybe it would help her to solidify concepts.

 

If you have a library membership, you may be able to borrow or interlibrary access a Great Course set of videos on math that covers the basics through pre-algebra (and there are also ones for beyond that).  Maybe Ronit Bird type materials would be available via loan somehow in case those would help (I've not used them, but know people with dyscalculia dc sometimes report a lot of help with them.)

 

I would also suggest letting your dd look at online examples of materials, such as MUS, which seemed to several of us like it could be a fit for your dd's situation -- fairly easy and non-overwhelming problems, clean page lay out, video component. And you can probably make reasonably okay manipulatives for it out of paper to avoid the cost of those.  And have her look at other programs that have online samples and see if anything seems to be a good fit in her own opinion. Perhaps ALEKS that someone recommended has that. Or similarly maybe a trip to a used bookstore that has a lot of old textbooks and see if anything appeals to her.  I would think it might be a problem if there is dyscalculia, but a Basic College Math type book could help by going back over everything from basic addition onward so as to plug holes (same for Khan Academy).  Perhaps a math book used for life skills math--but that is unlikely to achieve your ACT type goals for her.  Perhaps a Math Made Simple, or a Barron's math review type book could be of help to her.

 

Maybe...I am forgetting the author's name, but it is an actress who wrote some math books that are supposed to especially appeal to teen girls...could help her.  First name I think Danica or similar?  Maybe someone else will know what I mean.

 

For something really quite different, possibly James Taunton's Exploding Dots type approach would reach her.  (G'Day Math website, I believe--I think had online samples of books and some videos).  And if you could borrow it from library he did a Great Courses geometry program.

Edited June 13, 2017 by Pen

[Pen]

And, just to add, Khan Academy has (or at least had) free videos to show lattice multiplication and partial quotient division, in case those would help.  

 

 

Hoping curriculum isn't really going to help. by the way.  I have 400 zillion types of math curriculum.  While a combination of CLE/Beast Academy/Key to Fractions Decimals Percents/Math on the Level/CTC and other resources had various strengths that helped, it wasn't one program that worked.  It has been working through several with me gaining a better understanding myself so I could better explain things.  Also, working very slowly, doing a TON of targeted, systematic review, keeping lessons short, being exceedingly patient, very supportive, using various manipulatives and real world examples to give her brain something to anchor to, and being willing to look at outside the box approaches for specific issues.

 

For instance, DD could not get multi digit multiplication down.  It drove her crazy.  She could mimic me in the moment but she was NOT truly understanding and applying any knowledge.  A teacher at a special school for bright kids with learning challenges showed her the lattice method.  It was gobbldygook to me but after DD had practiced it a while it made all the difference.  She still needs to create and use a math chart for many of her multiplication tables but now she understands what she is doing and can remember all the processes for multidigit multiplication.

 

Same thing with division.  She ended up switching to partial quotient division.  

 

Do both of these processes take longer?  Yes.  To a NT person does it usually seem like the traditional ways are better?  Yeah.  But a dyscalculic does not have a traditional brain.  Look for outside the box answers to individual problems.  There is not going to be a magic math program that will address all of her struggles.  At least in all my years of research I have never found that perfect program.  Ronit Bird coupled with Dynamo Math comes closest for many things but they can be pricey.  

 

Anyway, sending hugs of support.  You might post on the LC board...

 

[Pen]

Title of one of the books that could appeal to a teen girl, but that I cannot quite recall is something like Kiss My Math.

[OneStepAtATime]

And, just to add, Khan Academy has (or at least had) free videos to show lattice multiplication and partial quotient division, in case those would help.

Yes! I forgot to mention Khan is a great free resource for explanation videos. So is you tube in general. Good point Pen! 😀

[Pistachio mom]

We have used the RobBob videos on youtube also. Sometimes watching a teacher explain in different words really can make a difference!

 

Also, I got a math catalog in the mail today. It is called Didax. They have a website http://www.didax.com/searchresults.html?grade=9&menu=math&&subject=95

 

Many math manipulatives for middle school and high school level. It might be worth looking for ideas.

 

Good Luck Friend as you work on this! :)

[Ravin]

If you suspect a learning disability, you need to get an ed-psych evaluation and understand exactly what you are dealing with, rather than jumping from curriculum to curriculum. You can't remediate what you don't understand.

 

If you are in a state where home schools can get access to school services, you may be able to get a basic evaluation at your local school for free. If not, you may need to hunt. If you have a doctor, ask for a referral to someone who can charge you on a sliding scale. Look for a support group for learning disabilities and ask there. (There's an online community at dyslexicadvantage.org, but it's not free.) If she's gifted, maybe her IQ qualifies her for a gifted and talented program and you can access 2E support through that?

 

Our local math remediator uses Math U See quite a bit, but she tutors it. I'm not sure it's a good fit for a child who liked Beast Academy. If she enjoys gifted curriculum MUS might feel like it's talking down to her.

 

She really sounds like she needs individual attention. In a group class, she's one of a kind and won't fit into the flow. But you don't have the budget to hire a one-on-one tutor. As much as you want to outsource, I'm not sure it's possible.

 

This doesn't help if evaluations have happened and the results were unhelpful. My DD is just like the OP's, only a year younger. She's had several evaluations and each time they uncover her being farther behind without in any way giving any direction for how to remediate. The public school would throw her to the wolves and pull her out for "extra help" an hour a week while expecting her to keep up in a regular grade-level class. It's asinine.

 

Currently we're sort of using Life of Fred and bits of Key To and Math on the Level at times and MM dark blue here and there, focusing on specific concepts identified either through LoF or MOTL as things she needs to work on. We seem to have spurts where she'll be "in the mood" and do a fair bit in a day, and lots of times where it's a tantrum if even one problem of any sort is put in front of her. Major anxiety and lack of focus.

 

To the OP--I don't have an answer for you, but I feel your pain.

[lewelma]

I have tutored a girl using MUS who was below prealgebra at age 14.  Now 2 years later, we are moving slowly but steadily through algebra.  The key was to drop her to the level she needed to start at, and move very very slowly. She did MUS fractions at age 14, which has made a huge difference to her ability to do algebra at age 16.

 

I have also tutored a girl who scored at the bottom 0.1 percentile in computation.  The one time I asked her at age 16 to subtract 12-5, it took her two full minutes with a tally chart to get 8.  Once I realized what I was up against, I chose to abandon ALL computation.  The calculator is her friend.  She does not even add 3+5 without a calculator.  And with this approach I have been able to get her through a 12th grade statistics course. The key was to abandon any hope of her learning how to manipulate numbers.  If she can understand word problems and effectively use a calculator, she will be more than capable in many fields in university and in life.  

 

Ruth in NZ

[Emerald Stoker]

Maybe this is silly, but I am wondering--if she liked the comic book aspects of Beast Academy, do you think she might enjoy something like the Murderous Maths books? Our library's got them--maybe yours does, too. If math is a big struggle for her, she might enjoy a little bit of fun/silliness with it once in a while.

 

One of my kids enjoyed the Danica McKellar series Pen mentioned above (we got them from the library).

 

I wonder if there would be anything at the Living Math site that might capture her interest? www.livingmath.net

 

Some people find JUMP math quite helpful for kids who struggle: www.jumpmath.org The workbooks are quite inexpensive, and the teacher's guides are free on their website. Their materials only go up to grade 8, though. Other inexpensive back-to-basics kinds of things are the Keys To books, Strayer-Upton books, and Rod and Staff, which all have their strengths.

 

MEP is free online; I wonder if that would be worth a look? www.cimt.org.uk/project/mep/

 

Once you get to Algebra and beyond, I know people who have enjoyed using the Fresh Approach books by Christy Walters.

 

I know that none of these things have the outside accountability that you are looking for--just tossing out some ideas for things that occurred to me.

 

Good luck to you and to her! I hope you find just the right thing and that math becomes easier and more enjoyable.

[Janeway]

how long are the lessons? Anything more than 10 minutes and there's no way she'd still be "tuned in".

The lessons are about 5 minutes, maybe 10, but they are short. And they happen only once a week, and then the problem sets are short, generally no more than 25, but much less on lessons that are more complex. You can see samples on their page.

[foxbridgeacademy]

Really need something independent, we've tried doing it together and that does not work, at all.  She'd do Khan Academy but Sal Khan's voice and seeing just the white board bothers her (something we have in common).  I think we're going to do Thinkwell. DS prefers it to anything he's done and while it may take her longer than him to finish each level I think it will be enough.

[Pen]

I hope you'll update to say how it is going with Thinkwell.  I don't tend to think of it as a program for dyscalculia, but Burger is one of the author's of the books that DS now uses, and I'd be interested in how the videos and all are, esp in case ds should want to do some summer math.

[Vida Winter]

It sounds like simply switching curriculum is not going to do the trick. The problem is not the curriculum. Whatever you choose, you (or someone with a lot of patience) is going to need to sit alongside her every day. If sitting beside her has not worked in the past, you need to figure out how to make it work. Each of you do the Thinkwell homework. Have her show you how to do problems. Do likewise for her. Also -- start at a point that is below her ability -- this is important to build confidence -- no matter how far you need to back up. I know there are no easy answers here. No curriculum on its own is going to be magic.

 

ETA: do the problems on a whiteboard if that helps

Edited June 14, 2017 by Vida Winter

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I agree with Vida Winter - someone needs to work with your daughter, nearly every day. If not you, is there maybe a grandparent or other relative who could step in...? Those of us who have had any success in helping older children remediate in math are all saying the same thing because it's just true:

 

Somebody has to watch her as she works, decipher the thought processes, back up to right before the place she got confused, rework material in the moment. Every problem, every day, for a long time. She cannot do this for herself. No video or independent course can individualize and respond like this. She needs a teacher.

[lewelma]

It's true. Kids having trouble in math can't self teach. Figuring stuff out on your own through video or text is a very high level math skill, which takes many years to master. Struggling students can't do it. I wish it were different, but in my experience you will need to find a teacher.

[Mike in SA]

I will argue that continued independent learning is actually going to make things worse.  DW has remediated plenty of Khan- and Thinkwell-taught students who had no teacher.  Self-teaching requires a base level of mastery to start from and strong learning skills.

 

If you cannot sit with her, perhaps someone else can.  She might just need a different person so she feels safe exposing her challenges and facing her insecurities.  We tutored students for free when they couldn't afford help but needed it.  I would not be surprised if a local co-op or tutoring center could help out.

[6wildhorses]

My daughter has dyscalculia and ADHD, and Prodigygame.com has been amazing for her. I can select exactly what I want her to work on, and the gaming aspect keeps her going. When we started, I chose skills that were several grades lower because she needed a better foundation. However, she cannot do any math program independently. I have to sit with her and help her. I draw explanations and show work on a tabletop whiteboard using colored markers. Some days are very difficult because it's just so hard for her. She sometimes takes her frustration out on me, and it's tough.

 

When she finishes Prodigy, I plan on using Math U See because it is very straightforward and has a lot of review. The workbook format is user friendly too. However, I don't expect her to be able to do it on her own. Like others said, curriculum is only part of the answer. How you teach it is a huge part of the equation. Multi-sensory learning is really helpful. You could check if your library has any tutoring available, or if you can get a scholarship at a tutoring center.

 

If you decide to go to the school for help, they must provide an evaluation because of something called the Child Find Mandate. This doesn't necessarily mean that you will get a diagnosis, but the testing will show whether or not she would qualify for services. If you aren't able to help her, then you might need to see what help they can offer. Some states allow students to attend school part time.

[JanetC]

I will argue that continued independent learning is actually going to make things worse.

Doing nothing until a family member has time to sit with her or until you have money to evaluate and remediate properly may be better than doing the wrong thing.

[Pen]

I will argue that continued independent learning is actually going to make things worse.  ...

 

 

I thought that Thinkwell, like Chalkdust and MUS, had as one feature being able to call and ask for live help from the program designers. Is that not so?  

 

I realize it is not the same as sitting side by side with someone the whole time. And especially if ADHD and dislike of math based inattentiveness is key problem rather than dyscalculia, possibly the child needs not even a tutor so much as an overseer to keep her on track.

[Pen]

BTW, our public library consortium has tutoring available --via a nationwide online program -- during certain hours for members. I don't know if it is any good, or likely depends on the exact tutor on any day.  But it is not an added cost over library membership.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Do you have a formal enough diagnosis to be able to get calculator accommodations on standardized testing?

 

In addition to the school based options others mentioned, you might inquire at local colleges with education or educational psychology degree offerings. They may do plow cost or free assessments as part of student practical training.

[Mike in SA]

I thought that Thinkwell, like Chalkdust and MUS, had as one feature being able to call and ask for live help from the program designers. Is that not so?  

 

I realize it is not the same as sitting side by side with someone the whole time. And especially if ADHD and dislike of math based inattentiveness is key problem rather than dyscalculia, possibly the child needs not even a tutor so much as an overseer to keep her on track.

 

That's just it - help and shoulder-to-shoulder tutoring are different things.  Help is provided to support independent learning.

[foxbridgeacademy]

I really just wanted curriculum suggestions that fall within the parameters I stated in OP. 

[Lorelei King]

try looking at StudyPug pre-algebra? My neighbor recommended it to me to try when my kids get older.  Their lessons are very short from what I can see.

[momtofive]

I really just wanted curriculum suggestions that fall within the parameters I stated in OP.

I'd look into trying Math U See, and do it in time blocks that work for your student. :)

[Hilltopmom]

Have you had her officially diagnosed with dyscalculia?

 

Dyscalculia is something that, unlike traditional dyslexia which is associated with the reading and processing of written words, has very little research in methods to effectively remediate. Often people with dyscalculia (after intervention) will 'top out' somewhere in arithmetic-- with 4th grade math being considered a typical plateau. People with dyscalculia have more than a difficulty with math-- they are unable to process mathematical concepts and will get 'lost' in multi-step problems (like long division)-- and will not be able to work through the abstract concepts of Algebra... Dyscalculia is not an issue of IQ. Many people with dyscalculia will be able to mimic short term processes-- show me a problem and I'll do the same steps if you change the numbers--but will not be able to independently derive a solution as they will not have an understanding/ability to understand the concepts needed.

 

Dyscalculia is not to be confused with a generalized learning disability in Math. My oldest dd has 'high functioning autism (Aspergers) and high school math was very difficult-- but not impossible-- for her. It took her 2 years to complete Algebra 1 and another 2 to complete Algebra 2. With all of her struggles she had no signs of dyscalculia.

 

If your daughter has dyscalculia then a program like Saxon would be impossible-- she would not be able to put the pieces together. The other programs you mentioned would also be extremely difficult as they were designed for students with 'typical' processing and reasoning skills.

 

My suggestion would be to have her formally evaluated-- if she does have dyscalculia then there are accommodations that can be made (for future math and science requirements). In this situation working with a trained teacher/instructor one-on-one would give her the most support. Since funds are tight, you might look for someone to meet with occasionally who can guide you in making a plan of action so your daughter can reach her potential.

 

Recently there have been many breakthroughs in regards to dyslexia remediation/retraining. Hopefully there will soon be some in the related area of dyscalculia.

I'll start a new thread about this, but have some ?s about this.

Thanks

[MarkT]

Honestly, it sounds like she needs more 1-on-1 attention.  Independent learning is not going to work.

 

When the steps of a procedure don't sink in, it's also time to turn to conceptual gaps.  In this, I don't mean formulae and sequences - many kids with dyscalcula struggle with procedural approaches.  What we have done in the past with students we have tutored included pulling out Legos as manipulatives, using muscle memory, and simply providing lots of extra time.

 

TT, MM or MUS may be your best choices (Math-U-See probably the most accessible of the three).  Unless the dyscalcula is very minor, I wouldn't begin to consider the extreme curricula.  Those others may have bombed in the past, but bouncing around isn't likely to help.

since I seen it mentioned before here: - dyscalculia;

https://www.understood.org/en/learning-attention-issues/child-learning-disabilities/dyscalculia/understanding-dyscalculia

 

sorry I am no help