Would these things cause red flags for you?

[Catwoman]

Personally, I don't see any reason why you need to be nice to this man, and I certainly wouldn't attempt to get to know him better -- that's just what he wants.

 

Of course, he's going to be nice. Of course, he's going to be polite, and sweet, and funny, and friendly. He wants you to trust him. He wants your dh to trust him. He wants your dd to trust him.

 

I spoke with my dh about this, and he said that it's time for you and your dh to step up the next time you see this guy, and tell him in no uncertain terms that his attention to your dd is unwelcome and in all honesty, seems abnormal. You can say you don't mean to offend him, but he is to stay away from your family from now on. You might also mention that you've discussed it with the pastor. (Be sure you actually do that first!)

 

I wouldn't be at all surprised if this guy suddenly disappears from your church -- but keep your eyes open in your neighborhood, as this guy seems to have a strange obsession with your dd, and just because he's not at church doesn't mean he's not lurking around nearby.

 

I suggested this earlier, and I hope you will consider, speaking with the appropriate detective at your local police station to see what they think. If you can get a picture of this guy with a camera phone, it would be even better, as this man may not be using his real name. New identities are apparently quite easy to establish, and if this man is what we think he may be, he could be an old pro at moving from place to place and name to name.

 

This is scary. I wouldn't be friendly to the guy at all. Let him know you are suspicious. You could also be sure people talk to him about how you and dh are avid gun collectors and spend your weekends out at the target range... ;)

 

I'm sorry you are going through this, but thank goodness you are paying attention to your instincts!

 

Cat

[Jean in Wisc]

Have you searched his address as well as his name in the National Sex Offender Registry?

 

http://www.familywatchdog.us/

[unsinkable]

Yes, listen to those instincts. When I was in college and on break, I was housesitting with a friend. I didn't have a car and needed to walk to work. As I was walking, a nice middle aged man, in a nice middle income car, stopped and offered me a ride. I knew it was wrong to accept but work was fairly far away. I got in and immediately alarms were going off in my head. How he looked at me, the seemingly harmless questions-it just felt off. We drove a few blocks and I asked him to let me out. He kept driving and I got loud and insisted. We were in a suburb area so he had to drive slowly. I started to open the car door. He finally stopped and said "fine." When I looked at his face I realized how scary he looked. How did I think this guy was "nice"? As I left the car he pinched my butt and winked at me when I turned around. He did not look happy. He was angry that I was getting out. I was ticked that he grabbed my derriere but I just took off. His car loitered for a few minutes and then sped off. I walked to work really fast and was shaking the whole time. I never told my mom about it because she would have killed me for accepting the ride. I do think that this man might have hurt me if he had be able to get me to another area. I saw it in his face. But he seemed harmless and friendly at first. You just never know. Please trust your instincts. Please trust your instincts. Please trust your instincts.

 

OMgosh...this story gave me chills!

 

I am glad you escaped and didn't end up seriously injured or killed.

[ccmom]

I mean, he was addressing our daughter, not my dh, and keeping the option of holding her open for the future.

 

It sounds to me like he's trying to win your daughter's trust by seeming trustworthy and acting like a family friend. I also agree with another poster that leadership MUST be informed of this!! This is cause for alarm and he has given many reasons to not be trusted. Also, while it could be for a number of reasons, don't discount the fact that he is disassociated from his family. This to me, along with his behavior and focus on your daughter (INCLUDING not addressing you, but addressing your daughter) is hugely significant.

 

Usually your instincts are right. Hopefully your church leadership can be made aware so that he doesn't have a chance to get alone with other children.

[Pajama Mama]

OMgosh...this story gave me chills!

 

I am glad you escaped and didn't end up seriously injured or killed.

 

I always knew that what happened was creepy. But it wasn't until I was older that I really realized that I could have been in danger. I wasn't looking to hitch a ride that day. I was walking down a tree lined suburban area-not a highway. Why would this man even think I needed a ride? I remember that I said no several times but I felt like I was insulting him by thinking he was a danger. He reassured me that he had "a daughter my age" and he wouldn't hurt fly. I was such an idiot for getting in the car but I was 19 or 20 and still in my don't hurt anyone's feelings stage.

 

I can't remember what the guy said but I felt immediately scared of him. He was so friendly and smiled alot. He looked so nice from outside the car. When sitting next to him I could see his eyes. He looked like a smiling crocodile. His eyes were cold. My brain started screaming "Get out of the car!" I told him that I needed to get out because I would get in trouble with my mom for getting into the car with a stranger. I was still trying to be polite and not hurt *his* feelings. He said something else and I repeated that I had to get out. He kept talking but I couldn't hear him because I was thinking about how to get out of the car. He had to stop to merge onto a bigger road. I opened the door even though his car was moving a little. He cursed or something and said "fine".

 

I did feel guilty for making him feel bad. It is possible that he was harmless and I just ticked him off because I didn't trust him. But then he grabbed my butt. That doesn't seem to fit with his assurance that he was a harmless dad figure.

 

Now almost 20 yrs later, I can still see this guy's face. Not so much the actual facial features but the big smile and the dead eyes. It was like seeing his mask slip off to reveal the danger behind it. In a way, it was a gift. I am a trusting person to people I know. I will help a stranger in certain circumstances but never if it may put me(or another) at risk. I am now aware that people are not always what they seem.

[unsinkable]

I always knew that what happened was creepy. But it wasn't until I was older that I really realized that I could have been in danger. I wasn't looking to hitch a ride that day. I was walking down a tree lined suburban area-not a highway. Why would this man even think I needed a ride? I remember that I said no several times but I felt like I was insulting him by thinking he was a danger. He reassured me that he had "a daughter my age" and he wouldn't hurt fly. I was such an idiot for getting in the car but I was 19 or 20 and still in my don't hurt anyone's feelings stage.

 

I can't remember what the guy said but I felt immediately scared of him. He was so friendly and smiled alot. He looked so nice from outside the car. When sitting next to him I could see his eyes. He looked like a smiling crocodile. His eyes were cold. My brain started screaming "Get out of the car!" I told him that I needed to get out because I would get in trouble with my mom for getting into the car with a stranger. I was still trying to be polite and not hurt *his* feelings. He said something else and I repeated that I had to get out. He kept talking but I couldn't hear him because I was thinking about how to get out of the car. He had to stop to merge onto a bigger road. I opened the door even though his car was moving a little. He cursed or something and said "fine".

 

I did feel guilty for making him feel bad. It is possible that he was harmless and I just ticked him off because I didn't trust him. But then he grabbed my butt. That doesn't seem to fit with his assurance that he was a harmless dad figure.

 

Now almost 20 yrs later, I can still see this guy's face. Not so much the actual facial features but the big smile and the dead eyes. It was like seeing his mask slip off to reveal the danger behind it. In a way, it was a gift. I am a trusting person to people I know. I will help a stranger in certain circumstances but never if it may put me(or another) at risk. I am now aware that people are not always what they seem.

 

:grouphug: more chills... :grouphug:

[coralloyd]

Go with your gut. Women's intuition, is a gift from God.

[Catwoman]

Wow, Pajama Mama -- that's so scary! Thank goodness you were able to get away safely! :grouphug:

 

Cat

[Joanne]

I'm not reading the whole thread.

 

1) Yes, ABSOLUTE creepy factor and red flags.

 

2) If anyone in this thread has not yet read Protecting the Gift by Gavin de Becker, please do. He clearly delineates the kind of "clues" and "behavior" that should register as creepy and encourages us to break free from the socially scripted "nice" response.

[Jumping In Puddles]

 

It stricks me as NOT coinincidence that this man is targeting the dd of a an obviously non-confrontational woman.

 

 

 

After the cell phone incident, he knows the father is also non-confrontational.

 

This is exactly what an abuser looks for in a family. He was obviously wrong though -- you are not ignoring your feelings that something is not right! I bet he will move on because a family that is "on to him" won't fit with his m.o. and he won't be able to move in closer for the abuse.

 

I would speak to the head of the church, speak with a detective, try to get a picture of the guy, and let him know that it is not ok this time or any time to hold your dd.

[Supertechmom]

Thanks again for all who have replied. It helps to bounce these things off other mommies.

 

Jim says to my daughter, "okay, well, I'll get to hold you in the near future then."

 

 

 

I really don't understand why he would have responded this way. Most normal people would have just said fine and ruffled the girl's hair or something like that and moved on. Especially if I remember right you said you don't do nursery or Sunday school so where would he get the time to hold her and why the near future???

 

Even in good ole bless her heart southern style, this was snarky and in your face even if it was said dripping in honey. Even if he is completely innocent and just a dear sweet heart, I think the time to be blatantly rude is at hand. He feels that he has some sort of connection to a child this young and can promise her things in the future against a parent, time to come out swinging.:001_smile: That statement alone sounds like he has plans no matter how innoncent they may be. You don't want adults in your kids' lives who have "plans" for your kids that haven't been cleared with you first.

[KLynnTX]

If I were in your shoes, what I'd do from now on, is anytime that he is around, I or my dh would be holding the toddler. When he comes up again, and puts his arms out, I'd say, No thank you, she's much happier when I'm holding her. Boy, it's cold outside isn't it, or Oh, where is Suzy, I've been needing to talk to her about....Just change the subject, and move on. That's it. No more discussion. If he says, Oh, next time.....I'd act like I didn't hear it, and move on. I would repeat this scenario every. single. time. I would talk with my dh to the pastor/elders. I would be extremely aware of all children when this man is around, but I wouldn't be ready to hang him yet. Some people are just unaware. But, by being very abrupt, letting him know that he will not hold her, and as he notices that you are watching out for all children, maybe it'll help him to be a little more aware of what is acceptable. But I would not have my child out of my hand around this guy for anything. Don't be afraid of speaking up, especially when it feels uncomfortable. That is why God gave children parents. We need to protect them.

[Murphy101]

That statement alone sounds like he has plans no matter how innoncent they may be. You don't want adults in your kids' lives who have "plans" for your kids that haven't been cleared with you first.

 

:iagree:Even if it's something nice and wholesome, I don't have much patience for anyone in our lives that does that.

[Danestress]

But I do think that sometimes it's hard to say why something is bothering you, and I would generally say that if it doesn't feel right to you, that you should go with your instincts.

 

We have a very close, affectionate church. I can definitely see a few of the older men in our church holding babies regularly. I'm one of the older ladies (I'm not old, but I am years past having babies) who always wants to hold a baby/toddler at church. It doesn't surprise me that some men are the same.

 

Nothing you have said seems particularly alarming to me. It seems normal to me that some men will have an attachment to a particular baby or toddler.

 

But that doesn't mean that you can't limit it as you see fit. I think if it would have been shockingly rude for your husband to tell the man that he will *never* hold your child again, as you wished. I am glad he didn't do it your way in this particular situation. But I don't think it would be rude at all for you to simply not let that happen - to tell him, "She seems to be in a clingy stage right now, so we are holding her, but thanks." Or whatever other excuse seems reasonable.

 

You are the parents, so you have to go with what you think is right for her and for your own comfort level. But I think you have to be careful that while firmness might be in order, being really offensive is not.

[hillfarm]

If being firm and direct goes directly against your nature, try flippant instead. "I don't think so! I have had people all day long try to refuse to do as I ask and I have had to fuss at every single one of them. Do I need to give you a piece of my mind too?" Followed by a big insincere laugh.

 

"No thank you." And after he responds to her that he will hold her later, "I'm sorry, what part of No Thank You did you not understand?"

 

"Mama has said No. That is all." and turn and walk away.

 

Think of some sassy television personality and immitate them. Surprisingly enough, you can get away with practically anything if you follow it up with a laugh.

 

If you can manage it, be blunt and flippant, "I can't believe my ears! Did you promise my child something when I just said No?" I didn't notice where you are located, but all of this is more convincing and satisfying if said while wagging your head slightly from side to side and using a strong southern accent! And don't be quiet about it either--speak a bit louder than your normal conversational tone. If anyone calls you on your attitude, tell them that he has triggered your Mommy Alarm and you practice Better Safe Than Sorry.

 

The bottom line, if he is decent, he will understand that your need to protect your child is stronger than his need to hold her. If he is a creep, consider your responses to be what his last victim's mother would like to have said.

Edited April 14, 2009 by hillfarm

[emmsmama]

Second, I'll echo and repeat what others have said -- please read The Gift of Fear and Protecting the Gift (both by Gavin de Becker). I actually preferred Protecting the Gift. And then have your dh read it. Yes, it's that important. It will truly open your eyes.

 

I am giving an emphatic second recommendation for you to read "Protecting the Gift". Every parent should read it. This guy may be totally innocent, however it's better to look "rude" or "mean" or "paranoid" or whatever anybody wants to call you or assume about you, than to have him hurt your daughter. One of the things Gavin talks about in PTG is that women especially are so concerned with "being nice" that they sometimes fail to follow their instincts for fear of offending someone or making the wrong judgement call.

[Blueridge]

This whole thread has creeped me out. I have been wondering what I would think/do in a similar circumstance. I might be tempted to have my dh approach him (while my child was safe in another place with me), and have him attempt to chit chat with probing questions...to see the guy's response. Things like 'how long had he been living here...did he like the church...where did he live formerly...what did he do for a living...did he have children of his own...' If he is truly trying to be friendly and neighborly, he would probably welcome the curiosity. If he runs the other way to avoid inquisitiveness, I would wonder about his motives. I am probably thinking like a grade B movie plot, but my curiousity would be in overdrive.

Ginger

[Bess]

How's that for a title? :tongue_smilie: Okay, last sunday, I stayed home with a sick child, but my husband took the toddler to church with him. Sure enough, the man came up to them and said, "Can I hold her yet?". My dh said, "No, we're working on some training issues with her, so it's easiest just to keep her with us." Good answer I thought. Then that night he took her to the evening service and the man came up to them and put his face to our daughter's face and said "give me some sugar" and waited for our daughter to kiss him on the cheek. ICK. My husband didn't say anything. IRGH. Once again, WE DO NOT KNOW THIS MAN. (he thinks he knows us apparantly though)

 

Anyway, after talking with my dh about it (AGAIN), we decided that he would tell him that one of the training issues we are working on is teaching her not to go to people, especially men, outside the family, including giving kisses, etc. I really think that will nip all future interacation in the bud. My dh still plans to talk to the leadership.

 

I did read the book you all suggested, by the way. It was very good. One thing that stood out to me concerning our situation, was when the author described a prededar as someone who moves into your life really, really quickly. I feel like that's what has been happening with us and this guy. After the first week of knowing him, he gave our kids a bunch of toys and clothing that belonged to his own (estranged) children. Then a few days after that, he called my husband and asked him if he wanted an old pair of pants of his that no longer fit him. He also offered to buy our toddler a stuffed animal at a church prize function thing, and then again a couple weeks later, offering to buy her toys. NOT NORMAL.

 

So, thanks for the book suggestion...it just firmed up what I think we already know.

[Mabeline]

I am so glad that you and your husband are on gaurd now and have an eye on this man. Hopefully he will get the idea soon and back off. Good luck.

[keptwoman]

Oh goodness he really is ick isn't he. So glad you have a plan to deal with him.

 

I'd be speaking to the elders of the church. You can bet when he realises he is getting nowhere with your family he will transfer his attentions elsewhere to someone who may not be as wary as you are.

[Blessedfamily]

How's that for a title? :tongue_smilie: Okay, last sunday, I stayed home with a sick child, but my husband took the toddler to church with him. Sure enough, the man came up to them and said, "Can I hold her yet?". My dh said, "No, we're working on some training issues with her, so it's easiest just to keep her with us." Good answer I thought. Then that night he took her to the evening service and the man came up to them and put his face to our daughter's face and said "give me some sugar" and waited for our daughter to kiss him on the cheek. ICK. My husband didn't say anything. IRGH. Once again, WE DO NOT KNOW THIS MAN. (he thinks he knows us apparantly though)

 

....

 

 

This is stranger than Michael Jackson. I do not think you're overreacting at all.

[Ginevra]

One thing that stood out to me concerning our situation, was when the author described a prededar as someone who moves into your life really, really quickly. I feel like that's what has been happening with us and this guy. After the first week of knowing him, he gave our kids a bunch of toys and clothing that belonged to his own (estranged) children. Then a few days after that, he called my husband and asked him if he wanted an old pair of pants of his that no longer fit him. He also offered to buy our toddler a stuffed animal at a church prize function thing, and then again a couple weeks later, offering to buy her toys. NOT NORMAL.

 

 

This is very interesting. There have been two times in my life when I've shaken off a female "friend" because they were like this. Like I met them on Tuesday at 10:00 and by Wednesday at 2:00, they had planned a dinner out, invited me to visit a nursing home with them, told me their whole life story, cried about how controlling their mom was and e-mailed me a recipe for the best blackberry cobbler ever. It didn't really raise "red" flags, but it raised "abnormal" flags. I just felt like, "Man, let me off this ride!"

 

I completely agree that there's something creepy and his insistance bothers me more than his actual behavior. I have learned to NEVER ignore that voice in the back of my mind, especially if it's loud and insistant.

[Catwoman]

I would not delay in speaking with church leaders, and I'd also tell your dh to man up and put this guy in his place. I can't understand how your dh is managing to be so mild-mannered about this, because it's very clear that Red Flag Guy is not normal.

 

I'm sure your dh is a great guy and is the kind of person that everyone likes because he's so nice, but this isn't the time to be nice. He need to show that he's a strong father who won't put up with some nut flirting with his little girl.

 

I don't mean to sound harsh, but predators actively seek out parents they see as weak and "nice." Your dh has had several chances to put a stop to the relationship with this guy, and there has also been plenty of time to contact your pastor. I really think you'd better get moving on this, and get tough about it. Red Flag Guy isn't taking the hint and he isn't giving up, and the longer you wait to take action, the harder it will be to get rid of him.

 

Praying for you and your family!

 

Cat

[Ginevra]

Pajama mama,

 

Do you mind if I copy your story and print it for my daughter to read? This is just the thing I want in the back of her mind. She is a very gentle girl, very sweet. I know this is just the sort of ploy that could be a danger to her - not wanting to offend, don't hurt his feelings, he said he's a dad, etc.

 

I am so thankful you listened to that voice screaming in your brain.

[Bess]

I would not delay in speaking with church leaders, and I'd also tell your dh to man up and put this guy in his place. I can't understand how your dh is managing to be so mild-mannered about this, because it's very clear that Red Flag Guy is not normal.

 

I'm sure your dh is a great guy and is the kind of person that everyone likes because he's so nice, but this isn't the time to be nice. He need to show that he's a strong father who won't put up with some nut flirting with his little girl.Cat

 

I agree. When my dh came home and told me about the kiss thing, I was shocked that he just stood there and let him do that! After confronting dh about it, he got defensive and told me that since I didn't grow up in the South, I don't realize that that is a very southern thing to do. (the guy is southern) Exuse me, we've lived in the south for our whole adult lives, and I do not remember even *one* instance of a man asking for a kiss from our young daughter like that! I still can't believe he was trying to defend the situation... but it's probably because I came on strong about his allowance of it. I guess you could say my dh is not yet convinced like I am... he always gives people the benefit of the doubt. That's why I said before sometimes I think he just is responding to *my* alarm and not his own.

[Nakia]

I agree. When my dh came home and told me about the kiss thing, I was shocked that he just stood there and let him do that! After confronting dh about it, he got defensive and told me that since I didn't grow up in the South, I don't realize that that is a very southern thing to do. (the guy is southern) Exuse me, we've lived in the south for our whole adult lives, and I do not remember even *one* instance of a man asking for a kiss from our young daughter like that! I still can't believe he was trying to defend the situation... but it's probably because I came on strong about his allowance of it. I guess you could say my dh is not yet convinced like I am... he always gives people the benefit of the doubt. That's why I said before sometimes I think he just is responding to *my* alarm and not his own.

 

Nope, not a normal Southern thing. I was born and raised in Western NC, I have three little girls, and I have never had a man other than a relative respond so strongly to one of my children.

 

Men simply do not get a mother's intuition. Thankfully, my husband has learned to appreciate mine, and he listens when I tell him something that I just "feel".

[Aubrey]

If being firm and direct goes directly against your nature, try flippant instead. "I don't think so! I have had people all day long try to refuse to do as I ask and I have had to fuss at every single one of them. Do I need to give you a piece of my mind too?" Followed by a big insincere laugh.

 

"No thank you." And after he responds to her that he will hold her later, "I'm sorry, what part of No Thank You did you not understand?"

 

"Mama has said No. That is all." and turn and walk away.

 

Think of some sassy television personality and immitate them. Surprisingly enough, you can get away with practically anything if you follow it up with a laugh.

 

If you can manage it, be blunt and flippant, "I can't believe my ears! Did you promise my child something when I just said No?" I didn't notice where you are located, but all of this is more convincing and satisfying if said while wagging your head slightly from side to side and using a strong southern accent! And don't be quiet about it either--speak a bit louder than your normal conversational tone. If anyone calls you on your attitude, tell them that he has triggered your Mommy Alarm and you practice Better Safe Than Sorry.

 

The bottom line, if he is decent, he will understand that your need to protect your child is stronger than his need to hold her. If he is a creep, consider your responses to be what his last victim's mother would like to have said.

 

*gently* This has been bothering me all evening. I know people who talk this way, & it's very hurtful & dehumanizing. You always hope that they just don't have the manners to realize that they're being hurtful, but it's hard sometimes. And while I realize you weren't recommending this kind of behavior toward the public at large, people who talk this way don't *practice* on predators. They treat everyone that way. You CAN'T "get away with practically anything if you follow it up with a big laugh."

 

As far as this situation goes, leadership needs to be involved, & the OP & her dh need to be firm & direct. They can do that & be soft-spoken--I'm that way. Only when absolutely necessary, of course, but I've come across some difficult situations.

 

I just wanted to suggest that even in this situation, insincerity might be misplaced. First, this kind of double-speak (women do it all the time) can be misleading & very hard to read, for men especially. So I don't think it would actually accomplish the desired goal.

 

But more than that, I wanted to emphasize that this kind of speech *is* hurtful. There isn't a context where it's ok, & in many ways it's dishonest. You're not telling the other person what the problem is, so insensitive people (like this man) will continue their behavior, maybe even be encouraged in it, & sensitive people will go away hurt, not knowing why.

[lionfamily1999]

Didn't read all responses, just the first few pages. I do wonder, however, if the honest approach would work best. He has children, right? Then, he should understand if you say, point blank, 'Your interest is making me uncomfortable. I do not know you. I do not feel comfortable with you holding my daughter.' Throw in some chagrined, you know how it is, and he should get the picture.

 

I agree that the laugh it off approach doesn't work too well. There are dense people in this world and he might not 'get it.' Straight forward and honest should work.

 

Is it possible that he is feeling guilt about his own kids and, perhaps, sees a bit of his own child in your toddler? IOW, maybe his intentions aren't nasty and he just doesn't realize how much of a creep factor he's putting off. If YOU aren't comfortable approaching him, openly and honestly, then your church leaders should be. They can explain that things are done that way, where you're at, and that he's making some of the adults uncomfortable. At the very least, you can head off him becoming a Sunday school teacher, or (shudder) a nursery volunteer.

 

I've known people, like him, that seem to be drawn to my youngest. Most of them ARE older men, but of course, my youngest is a boy (all boy, iykwIm). They see THEMSELVES in him. Not sure what this guy sees in your dd, but I would, at the very least, let him know your mommy senses are tingling and he needs to back off.

[yvonne]

Bess,

 

Something that pops out at me in all this is that the man is doing these things, communicating inappropriately with your child ("That's ok. I'll hold you later." "Give me a kiss." etc.), in your or your husband's presence. I'd be afraid that, by not making it immediately clear to the man that his comments and suggestions of future behavior or activities are WRONG and NOT to be done, your child might come to feel comfortable with the man's comments.

 

I would make sure your child hears mama or daddy say, "NO. Absolutely NOT. My child does NOT kiss strangers. My child is not held by strangers. My child will not be alone with strangers."

 

She is only 2, but she's going to pick up on the tone, the feel, of her parents' reaction to the man, and she's not going to pick up any alarm from you if you're not firm in telling him no.

 

The man may or may not be dangerous, but, boy, what better way to insinuate his way into a child's world than by doing it when the child is in its parents' arms seeing its parents accepting the stranger.

[Catwoman]

Bess,

 

Something that pops out at me in all this is that the man is doing these things, communicating inappropriately with your child ("That's ok. I'll hold you later." "Give me a kiss." etc.), in your or your husband's presence. I'd be afraid that, by not making it immediately clear to the man that his comments and suggestions of future behavior or activities are WRONG and NOT to be done, your child might come to feel comfortable with the man's comments.

 

I would make sure your child hears mama or daddy say, "NO. Absolutely NOT. My child does NOT kiss strangers. My child is not held by strangers. My child will not be alone with strangers."

 

She is only 2, but she's going to pick up on the tone, the feel, of her parents' reaction to the man, and she's not going to pick up any alarm from you if you're not firm in telling him no.

 

The man may or may not be dangerous, but, boy, what better way to insinuate his way into a child's world than by doing it when the child is in its parents' arms seeing its parents accepting the stranger.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

Cat

[AuntieM]

Another voice here standing up for the South -- this strange man kissing babies bit is NOT a Southern thing (well, unless you count a politician in a crowd, but that is not a recurrent situation as is yours). Saying this gently.... I would be rather unsettled if my spouse was not more disturbed by this than yours appears to be. If this man were behaving this way in any other setting - a coworker of dh's, a guy at the library, a regular greeter at the grocery store - I have a feeling your man would be all over it. Just because it's church, you cannot assume this man is safe. And you and dh should not feel restrained by some sense of extraordinary courtesy due to the setting. Just my opinion.

 

Your dh's response is telling, though (IMO anyway). HE is he one being rather southern in his attempt to be non confrontational at church (mixed gender public setting where he's expected to be "nice"). Strongly ingrained societal good manners and display of respect for one's elders is wonderful for all to have, but I have seen this particularly trained into and adhered to by many of those reared in the south.

 

I agree with a recent response noting that this guy is still "conditioning" your daughter to accept him, and your dh's lack of forceful, clear & determined response may be confusing her.

 

Please forgive me if I seem to be a bit hard on your DH, I don't really mean to be. But I think he's got to step up IN A BIG WAY. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean punch the guy out, I mean he's just got to take some firm and decisive action. One more incident like the one you described, and I would be in the pastor's office, with or without DH.

[HeatherInWI]

Just another voice chiming in to say "Trust your instincts!".

[Catwoman]

Please forgive me if I seem to be a bit hard on your DH, I don't really mean to be. But I think he's got to step up IN A BIG WAY. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean punch the guy out, I mean he's just got to take some firm and decisive action. One more incident like the one you described, and I would be in the pastor's office, with or without DH.

 

Exactly!

 

It sounds like your dh is uncomfortable with confrontation, but this isn't about him -- it's about his little girl, who may be in danger from Red Flag Guy. Maybe you should ask your dh what he would do if RFG had run to his car and driven away with your dd when he took her outside for that phone call. Because that's what could have happened. How courteous would he be feeling toward that guy???

 

I honestly don't think you are overreacting here. If your dh won't talk with the pastor, maybe you should pick up the phone today and call him yourself. This is serious, and guys like RFG (got sick of typing Red Flag Guy!) count on the fact that a lot of people don't have enough confidence to act on their own instincts, and that a lot of people fear confrontation and the possibility of insulting someone.

 

I wish your dh would step up to the plate here, but it seems that he's making things worse instead of better, because he's probably coming across as a real wimp to RFG. I hate to say it, but I think the resolution to this issue is going to have to come from you, Bess.

 

Cat

 

Cat

[Nakia]

Yep, like I said about 13 pages ago, your husband must have a man to man talk with this guy.

 

My husband would have already flipped his lid...

Edited April 23, 2009 by Nakia

[Kate CA]

I agree. When my dh came home and told me about the kiss thing, I was shocked that he just stood there and let him do that! After confronting dh about it, he got defensive and told me that since I didn't grow up in the South, I don't realize that that is a very southern thing to do. (the guy is southern) Exuse me, we've lived in the south for our whole adult lives, and I do not remember even *one* instance of a man asking for a kiss from our young daughter like that! I still can't believe he was trying to defend the situation... but it's probably because I came on strong about his allowance of it. I guess you could say my dh is not yet convinced like I am... he always gives people the benefit of the doubt. That's why I said before sometimes I think he just is responding to *my* alarm and not his own.

 

I think your husband should read this thread. You are NOT alone in your concerns by any means. I think he is being naive and needs to step up and protect his child.

[Bess]

I think your husband should read this thread. You are NOT alone in your concerns by any means. I think he is being naive and needs to step up and protect his child.

 

He did read the thread (not the latest part about his reaction to the kiss thing). I think the thread helped him realize there really should be concern there. But without me and you all chiming in... I think he would otherwise be clueless and just think he's a nice guy that's maybe lonely. :confused: I mean, he didn't like that the guy thought it was okay to take our daughter out of sight, but I honestly wonder if it's just because I made a stink about the guy in the first place. I don't know. I wish this would just all go away. :tongue_smilie:

[hillfarm]

I made my comments about responding in a flippant, sarcastic way to offer one possible response to the OP, since she had indicted that neither she nor her dh were comfortable with direct confrontation. While my first choice would be a clear and direct zero-tolerance stance, I would rather a less substantial wall be thrown up to try to protect this child than no wall at all. Perhaps a little sass and attitude (sincere or manufactured) could empower the OP to let this guy know he was not welcome to interact with her child.

 

Regarding obvious insincerity making someone feel bad, I agree this can be very hurtful. And in this case, that would be my exact intention. Anyone coming at my child that way would be very fortunate indeed if I only clubbed them with words and a laugh and didn't grab an umbrella from the stand and start beating the tar out of them.

 

I disagree that people can't differentiate and speak in an insincere way to only certain people. I am usually a very honest and genuine person. However, just as some animals have a certain growl that warns don't threaten or mess with me, I use sarcasm and obvious insincerity to deliver the same message in a more socially appropriate way. Although I have had to use it only rarely, when it comes to someone mistreating my child, I don't hesitate to do so. And in those few experiences, I have never had to take it to the next level of actually confronting the person. They have always backed off the minute they see that I will call them on their inappropriate behavior and that they won't be running rough shod over THIS child.

Edited April 23, 2009 by hillfarm

[lionfamily1999]

I made my comments about responding in a flippant, insincere way to offer one possible response to the OP, since she had indicted that neither she nor her dh were comfortable with open confrontation. While my first choice would be a clear and direct zero-tolerance stance, I would rather a less substantial wall be thrown up to try to protect this child to no wall at all. Perhaps a little sass and attitude could empower the OP to let this guy know he was not welcome to interact with her child.

 

I rarely (pretty much never) use this technique. I am quite comfortable with speaking my mind. But I thought that perhaps it might be one that the OP could use if she couldn't summon the courage to speak up directly. Sometimes playing a role enables us to do that which we never could do as our own self.

 

By "getting away with" such speach, I meant that she would be less likely to scandalize bystanders. I sincerely hope she will be able to make the overly friendly and potentially dangerous man be less comfortable around her. Read the whole thread--we're not talking about some guy baby talking her kid, we are talking about one who left the building with the child, refused to hand her over to her father, has promised to see her later against her father's stated wishes, and now is trying to kiss her.

 

I'm sorry if it's not polite and I'm sorry if some fear that the man's feelings might be hurt, but IMO, to protect a child you do what it takes. I stand by what I said earlier--if the guy is well-intentioned, he will understand that the mother's need to keep her child safe takes precedence over his feelings and need to be around the child. One of the biggest tools many molesters have going for them is that some parents don't want to take the risk of offending or hurting their feelings and so allow the interaction between molester and potential victim to continue.

Just fyi, I didn't mean to bash the suggestion. I just wanted her to know that some people are too dense to understand it. IOW, if she's too blase about it, he may think she didn't really mean it. Of course, being honest is going to hurt his feelings, but so what? I mean, the guys pawing her baby and sometimes the truth hurts.

[Catwoman]

Personally, I wouldn't care a bit about hurting the guy's feelings. Until recently, he was a complete stranger; it's not like there's any reason why this family should be concerned about upsetting him -- he's acting very strangely, won't take the hint that his affections are unwelcome, and is quite possibly a predator.

 

I would be more concerned about the dd's safety than about some guy's feelings. IMO, this has already gone on for way too long, and this guy is probably very encouraged by Bess's dh's lack of a backbone (and lack of suspicion.) Her dh is making their family look like the perfect targets, and I can't understand it.

 

My dh is a relatively mild-mannered guy, but when it comes to our family's safety, he's a whole different person -- and Red Flag Guy wouldn't be bothering our family ever again. Bess's dh should have stepped up when he caught the guy outside with their dd. My dh and I would have been extremely angry about that, and believe me, the guy would have known it. We also would have warned others to be wary of the guy.

 

I really think Bess may need to find an opportunity to confront the guy, if it appears that her dh isn't up to the task. An angry mom can be just as threatening as an angry dad, and someone has to put a stop to this guy's behavior.

 

I guess I'm just a lot more confrontational than Bess and her dh, but if I sensed that my child was in danger, that Red Flag Guy would have been toast a long time ago.

 

Cat

[LadyAberlin]

I've grew up in the south and I never kissed other people's babies or children. Let alone kids that are your daughter's age. That is just creepy.

[LostSurprise]

There are men who are very child-oriented and who form bonds with children outside of their families. Dh's family is very much like that.

 

However, even with very affectionate, child-focused people there is line where you get to know the parents, receive their permission, and keep the child within their sight. This is not the case here. Even if he is an innocent man he will not keep normal boundaries and so is dangerous to himself and your daughter.

 

 

What I find more frightening is that your daughter is being taught by you and your husband that it is correct to be picked up by strangers, to kiss them, and perform other affectionate acts upon request. This is not healthy for a young child. You certainly wouldn't expect your 13 year old to give a relatively unknown adult man 'some sugar.' It's just as inappropriate for a 2 year old who is still learning how to interact with people appropriately.

 

At 2 she should be learning about privacy and her body. She should know who is in her family and who is not. She should be learning appropriate behavior to each. She should know that she doesn't have to obey strangers requests (or commands) and that she should not go with them.

 

Right now she is learning that it is necessary to obey the requests of any person who encounters her, at least if she's met them before with you (most molestations are done by people who are known to the child). Even if this man is completely innocent that is a bad start which could make her passive and open for molestation in the future.

 

Please, help her learn healthy boundaries now so she can protect herself in future years. You can protect her now and be so passive that she learns this behavior is okay.

[ciyates]

Trust your instincts and talk to the pastor. If you cut off the contact with your daughter he may move on to another and it needs to be known. By alerting your pastor he can take a more active interest in this person and really get to know his motives. He may be completely innocent and if he is that will come to the light!

[Supertechmom]

After that last incident , I would point blank ask " are you a child molester? Because that is how you are coming off to me. I don't know you and I don't want you to ever come near my child again. Do you understand?"

 

I just would not waste my time any longer on this. HE's out of line for whatever reason and in this time and day, he should know better. If he doesn't, then the above response will be a life lesson from the school of hard knocks. You've been given excellent reasons why not to allow this behavior from any person for any reason and now is the time to end it.

Sorry if that sounds harsh but the man is trying my patience and I'm just in cyberspace. :D :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[Kate CA]

Personally, I wouldn't care a bit about hurting the guy's feelings. Until recently, he was a complete stranger; it's not like there's any reason why this family should be concerned about upsetting him -- he's acting very strangely, won't take the hint that his affections are unwelcome, and is quite possibly a predator.

 

I would be more concerned about the dd's safety than about some guy's feelings. IMO, this has already gone on for way too long, and this guy is probably very encouraged by Bess's dh's lack of a backbone (and lack of suspicion.) Her dh is making their family look like the perfect targets, and I can't understand it.

 

My dh is a relatively mild-mannered guy, but when it comes to our family's safety, he's a whole different person -- and Red Flag Guy wouldn't be bothering our family ever again. Bess's dh should have stepped up when he caught the guy outside with their dd. My dh and I would have been extremely angry about that, and believe me, the guy would have known it. We also would have warned others to be wary of the guy.

 

I really think Bess may need to find an opportunity to confront the guy, if it appears that her dh isn't up to the task. An angry mom can be just as threatening as an angry dad, and someone has to put a stop to this guy's behavior.

 

I guess I'm just a lot more confrontational than Bess and her dh, but if I sensed that my child was in danger, that Red Flag Guy would have been toast a long time ago.

 

Cat

Cat,

 

I could not agree with you more.

[Pajama Mama]

Pajama mama,

 

Do you mind if I copy your story and print it for my daughter to read? This is just the thing I want in the back of her mind. She is a very gentle girl, very sweet. I know this is just the sort of ploy that could be a danger to her - not wanting to offend, don't hurt his feelings, he said he's a dad, etc.

 

I am so thankful you listened to that voice screaming in your brain.

 

Sure-that would be fine. If telling how foolish I was helps just one person I would be happy to help.

[OHGrandma]

Trust your instincts and talk to the pastor. If you cut off the contact with your daughter he may move on to another and it needs to be known. By alerting your pastor he can take a more active interest in this person and really get to know his motives. He may be completely innocent and if he is that will come to the light!

 

I came on here to post this very thing. One more thing, if the pastor blows you off as being overly suspicious, still trust your instincts on this one. I know of an instance where an older pastor said things like 'the girl was making up stories', 'boys will be boys', this was about a boy accused, not the pastor, but the older pastor was wrong...flat out wrong. And sometimes when things are just ignored then more children are hurt. I also know of another case, the man was an upstanding member of the church, active in choir & leadership; he spent jail time for molesting his grandchildren. And before that came to light, everyone thought he was such a nice guy, except his own daughters who moved as far away as possible as adults.

 

If red flag guy is harmless, you are still teaching your child appropriate boundaries by not letting him hold her. And if he's not harmless, then you are taking appropriate action by talking to the pastor.

[momof4boys]

Go with your heart! If it feels weird, don't go with it!

[momof4boys]

Go with what your heart tells you is right! Trust your Gut!

[Catwoman]

After that last incident , I would point blank ask " are you a child molester? Because that is how you are coming off to me. I don't know you and I don't want you to ever come near my child again. Do you understand?"

 

Truthfully, that's probably pretty much what I would have said when the guy took Bess's dd outside without permission. I would have been absolutely livid.

 

But I think we've already established that I have no problem with confrontation... :D

 

Cat

[Mama2Three]

I didn't read all the posts, so perhaps someone already mentioned this book... Protecting the Gift by Gavin DeBecker. It's all about keeping your DC safe, and his main theme throughout the book is to trust your gut. It's better to possibly offend someone than to put your DC at risk. I highly recommend this book.

Edited April 23, 2009 by Mama2Three