Tree House Academy Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 We just finished reading some books about MLK and what he did for this country. We are also going to make a birthday cake for Martin Luthur King, Jr. today. I was amazed at how closely my 5 year old listened to the stories. He asked me several times if MLK was still dead and I told him, yes, that once someone dies, they are always dead. He got tears in his eyes, which made me so sad. He is such a sweet and tender hearted child. I have to admit, I always cry when I read the words on MLKs tombstone.."Free at last, Free at Last, Thank God Almighty, I am Free at Last." Just gives me cold chills to think of all he did for this country. I can't even imagine living in the days when black and white people couldn't even share the same water fountain, buses, or schools. To my kids, it is almost impossible to fathom. Â :patriot: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole M Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I get tears, too. Â I listened to a fantastic free lecture from the Teaching Company yesterday. I'll have my oldest listen to that. It's here: Â http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/MLK09FreeLecture.aspx?ai=34001&WT.mc_id=FLAct20090109 Â After the election this year, I was with my oldest at the community college, registering for next quarter's classes. His adviser is a wonderful black woman. I asked, rather hesitantly, whether she was pleased with the outcome of the election. She said, rather hesitantly, that it would have been historic either way. Then she told me that her grandfather, who is 80, marched with Dr. King, and that she never imagined that her son, who is 8, would live in such a different world. That brought tears to my eyes, too, how much we have changed (and not) during my lifetime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris in VA Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I remember being alone in our basement, watching TV, when I heard a report that Martin Luther King had died. I ran upstairs, eagerly shouting, "Mom, Mom, a king died! A king died!" I had the wrong idea, but maybe not. He certainly provided leadership like a king. My kids can't understand the logic (well, there isn't any logic) behind separating the races. I'm so glad they are not prejudiced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen in PA Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 We are going to watch a short film and read a book on Bookflix, which we get through our library website. I had hoped to select some nice books last week, but the weather and illness kept us out of the library. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracey in TX Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 We take the day as a holiday and have opted to not teach about MLK for several years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole M Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Isn't there a movie about the Montgomery Bus Boycotts? I'm not a movie girl, but I vaguely remember... Sally Field? My boys are older. Maybe I'll look into that for this evening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie12345 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 My kids can't seem to grasp the concept, so I wind up focusing more on hard facts that anything else. They just don't understand why any of this is such a big deal, and they aren't really able to relate. Â While I know that's a *good thing, it makes for a very strange, rather cold sort of discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crissy Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 We've been having great conversations about civil rights since last week when we stood in front of the Greensboro lunch counter that is on display at the Smithsonian. Today we will listen to Dr. King's speech and watch a History Channel biography that my son reserved from Netflix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tree House Academy Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 Thank you for the link above Nicole M. That will be perfect for my oldest as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaceyinLA Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Just as we don't specifically celebrate Washington's or Lincoln's days or any other president. When it comes up in history, we cover it. Â We're going shopping... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ereks mom Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 (edited) ...I saw segregation firsthand -- "whites only" waiting rooms, water coolers, and schools -- and I remember my dad coming home from work and telling us about his duties as a police officer during the race riots. I remember seeing MLK on the news and in the papers, and I remember his assassination. I discuss all of that with my dc. Â We also pay tribute to Robert E. Lee, born January 19, 1807. Last year ER & I read a wonderful biography called Call of Duty: The Sterling Nobility of Robert E. Lee by Stephen Wilkins. Lee was a kind, gentle, Christian man, but his birthday gets little recognition these days because of the attention being focused on MLK's. Edited January 19, 2009 by ereks mom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 We don't do anything right now. I'm sure in later years we will cover it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmschoolmom22 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I went to enchantedlearning.com this am and printed a bunch of MLK fact sheets, mini books,etc...we found his place of birth and death on the map, read his speech and discussed:  racism segregation boycotts assassination protest freedom equality dreams  My kids definitely grasped his legacy and the fact that tomorrow our first African American president is being sworn in....my 12 yr old said, "I bet Dr. King will be smiling down from heaven tomorrow."  she definitely got it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tree House Academy Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 Wow - I bet your kids are so very interested in what you have to say about the times that you lived through with your dad as a police officer. My kids listened intently to me just talking about how it must have been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmschoolmom22 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 We take the day as a holiday and have opted to not teach about MLK for several years. Â Your children are about the same age as mine...I was wondering why you have opted to not teach about for several years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tree House Academy Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 Oh my...you know, I didn't even think to bring up Obama being sworn in tomorrow. Thanks! I will have to be sure to tie the two together for my kids!! (DUH!) LOL Your 12 year old definitely "got it!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_l_e_0..Q_c Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Nothing specific at home, but in the cathecism class I teach, we talked about MLK (even though we're Canadian and *not* having a day off...) MLK is an illustration of 'dreaming of a better world and doing something about it', but with Obama being assermented tomorrow, we decided to delve a little deeper than usual into MLK. It's a good thing we did, because the kids had no idea what was the big deal about Obama. "So what if his skin is darker? Who cares? It won't make him a better/worse president". It's a good thing that they think that way, but they have to know it wasn't always like now. Â Ok, so I throw in a bit of history education into my catechism classes. So sue me :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
athena1277 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Just as we don't specifically celebrate Washington's or Lincoln's days or any other president. When it comes up in history, we cover it. Â We're going shopping... Â Â That's us exactly! How did you know? :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tree House Academy Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 Just as we don't specifically celebrate Washington's or Lincoln's days or any other president. When it comes up in history, we cover it. Â We're going shopping... Â Hehe...with my kids being so young, we DO celebrate the President's Days. My little is 5 and doing K/1st grade work and these serve as his introduction to these highly influential historical people. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Lee was a kind, gentle, Christian man, but he gets little recognition these days because of the attention being focused on MLK. Â I hardly think the attention focused on Martin Luther King has anything to do with Robet E Lee's place in history. Â And the man you call a "kind, gentle, Christian man" was on the wrong side in our nation's greatest moral challenge. He made the decision to use his talents to support the evils of human slavery. Â Today I'd rather focus on a positive force. Thank-you Dr King! Â Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blessedfamily Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 ...I saw segregation firsthand -- "whites only" waiting rooms, water coolers, and schools -- and I remember my dad coming home from work and telling us about his duties as a police officer during the race riots. I remember seeing MLK on the news and in the papers, and I remember his assassination. I discuss all of that with my dc. Â We also pay tribute to Robert E. Lee, born January 19, 1807. Last year ER & I read a wonderful biography called Call of Duty: The Sterling Nobility of Robert E. Lee by Stephen Wilkins. Lee was a kind, gentle, Christian man, but he gets little recognition these days because of the attention being focused on MLK. Â :001_huh: What does Martin Luther King have to do with how much people pay tribute to Robert E Lee? I live in the south too. There has been no decline in people paying tribute to Robert E Lee since Dr. King's birthday became a holiday. Â He (Robert E Lee) gets still gets plenty of recognition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ereks mom Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I watched the news this morning, and all the talk was about the inauguration and MLK. I heard nothing at all about Lee. Locally, there is no attention paid to Lee either. Maybe it's different in Lee's home state of Virginia?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ereks mom Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Have you read the book I mentioned? I think you would see a much different picture of Lee than the one you have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamnkats Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Living in Mexico and not having any TV reception (of Mexican or US channels) I had no idea until I came to the board this morning. We've been talking about Ghandi a lot lately and the boys definitely equated the two (MLK and Ghandi). Â I'll follow the Teaching Company link and maybe we'll try and watch that today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blessedfamily Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 To answer the original post  We started discussing civil rights by reading an Arthur Ashe biography for kids. DD5, who is happy-go-lucky:001_smile:, became visibly upset by the thought that anyone would dislike her because of the color of her skin, so we're taking it slowly.  I just gave a general synopsis of Martin Luther King's role in American history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melinda in VT Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I watched the news this morning, and all the talk was about the inauguration and MLK. I heard nothing at all about Lee. Locally, there is no attention paid to Lee either. Maybe it's different in Lee's home state of Virginia?? Â In the parts of the country I've lived in (Oregon, Utah, Rhode Island, Vermont) there has been no attention paid to Lee on or near his birthday. Â But the same could be said of any other Civil War general, on either side of the conflict. Can anyone say off the top of their head in what month Grant's birthday is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emeraldjoy Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Thanks Spy Car; I appreciate the way you aptly and concisely present things. Refreshing. e  I hardly think the attention focused on Martin Luther King has anything to do with Robet E Lee's place in history. And the man you call a "kind, gentle, Christian man" was on the wrong side in our nation's greatest moral challenge. He made the decision to use his talents to support the evils of human slavery.  Today I'd rather focus on a positive force. Thank-you Dr King!  Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blessedfamily Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 (edited) I watched the news this morning, and all the talk was about the inauguration and MLK. I heard nothing at all about Lee. Locally, there is no attention paid to Lee either. Maybe it's different in Lee's home state of Virginia?? Â Â In Virginia today started out as Lee/Jackson/King day. Due to citizen outrage from two different perspectives, the commonwealth divided them into two different holidays. Municipalities can chose one or both, and that varies tremendously by locality. Â Yes, you hear more about Dr. King today. But you hear and see plenty about Robert E Lee the rest of the year. Edited January 19, 2009 by Blessedfamily Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nova mama Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 (edited) Being African American, with our family having many white friends, I have been slow to introduce the concept of racism to my children. (Thankfully) it makes very little sense to them, and I haven't wanted to give them any reason to be angry at white people--the ones we know today had nothing to do with what happened to black people in the past. But I have explained that a long time ago, black and white people couldn't be friends, couldn't go to school together, couldn't ride the bus together. I've told them that Martin Luther King, Jr., prayed for people, marched, and encouraged people to love each other regardless of race. I also explained that Obama's election is exciting because we've never had a president of African descent before. Like I said, thankfully, this doesn't make much sense to them. In a mock election at school, my son voted for McCain. I also voted for McCain (but I'm also happy about this historic occasion), my husband voted for Obama. We talk about politics in our home but I always tell my children that color doesn't matter. But I do want them to appreciate that they life we enjoy today is due in part to the work and sacrifice of others before us. As they mature, we will go into more depth and detail. As Christians, the overall theme of history for us God's mercy and grace in spite of man's sin. Edited January 19, 2009 by nova mama added that I'm happy about Obama's election Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hen Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I rented a movie for the kids last month titled "our friend Martin", it was a cartoon, but was very good I thought. I think we will follow the teaching co. link today. Â I have always, even as a child, been proud to share my birthday with Dr. King- we will be watching the festivities tomorrow, even tho I didn't vote that way, I am still proud that our country is no longer crippled by racism. Â Living in Ca, we don't see racism, it was hard for my kids to understand (which I am glad) the movie "our friend Martin" was very eye opening to them. Â My dad is Mexican and has very dark skin, they just can't imagine people being thought to be different or inferior for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blessedfamily Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 (edited) This is to everyone, but especially Nova Mama, Â My dd and my nieces have no concept of race. She describes people as "the girl with curly hair", "the tallest one at ballet", but never skin color. It slowly dawned on me..she just doesn't think that way. Â Of course, once we start discussing it, especially racial history in America, she understands more. I simply told her the role of melanin in skin color and the different ancestry of Americans. The science and geography made sense to her. The descimination and hatred based on that was apparently shocking. Â She literally put her hand to her mouth when we read the Arthur Ashe book. That moment was very sad for me. We only got through two pages. Edited January 19, 2009 by Blessedfamily Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmschoolmom22 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 we have recently discussed Indians and Slavery...my 8 yr old dd told me that she no longer wanted to have white skin!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6packofun Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I don't think "no concept of race" is the route we're going to take, nor are we going to make a general, identifying referral to skin color taboo. I will love this country so much more than I already do when we reach the point that race and skin color are just non-issues and no one is tiptoeing gently through the language because the intent of our hearts and attitudes towards our brothers and sisters are in the right place and we ALL KNOW IT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nova mama Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 This is to everyone, but especially Nova Mama, My dd and my nieces have no concept of race. She describes people as "the girl with curly hair", "the tallest one at ballet", but never skin color. It slowly dawned on me..she just doesn't think that way.   Sounds like the Dream to me! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blessedfamily Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 we have recently discussed Indians and Slavery...my 8 yr old dd told me that she no longer wanted to have white skin!!!! Â This is off topic but.. when we read a Pocahontas book, then visited my sister who leaves near Jamestown, dd5 kept saying "This isn't really your house. This isn't really your land." Â My sister said. "And just who do you think owned the land your house is on first?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ereks mom Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 (edited) Wow - I bet your kids are so very interested in what you have to say about the times that you lived through with your dad as a police officer. My kids listened intently to me just talking about how it must have been. Â ...until they were school age, the dc never even seemed to notice racial differences in people. When I tell them about the way things used to be, they find it hard to believe that race used to play such a prominent role in society. I saw a lot of racial strife when I was young, and I didn't want my children to learn at an early age to draw distinctions between people based solely on color. Â I remember ER trying to tell me something funny that "Miss Smith" did at school, and when I asked which of his several teachers was "Miss Smith", he tried to describe her to me. He said she was tall, she was kind of skinny, and she wore glasses. I realized later that "Miss Smith" was black (we are white), but it had never occurred to ER to tell me that. Edited January 19, 2009 by ereks mom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blessedfamily Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 (edited) I don't think "no concept of race" is the route we're going to take, nor are we going to make a general, identifying referral to skin color taboo. I will love this country so much more than I already do when we reach the point that race and skin color are just non-issues and no one is tiptoeing gently through the language because the intent of our hearts and attitudes towards our brothers and sisters are in the right place and we ALL KNOW IT. Â Yes I agree that we aren't aiming for our children not to have a concept of race or skin color. The point was that it hasn't come up for them, like it certainly did for us by that age. Â We don't think equality means denying anyone's race or skin color. Just that noone is inferior or superior based on that. Edited January 19, 2009 by Blessedfamily Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crissy Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 This is to everyone, but especially Nova Mama, My dd and my nieces have no concept of race. She describes people as "the girl with curly hair", "the tallest one at ballet", but never skin color.  That is interesting to me. I know that my boys notice skin color (ten years ago my older son was so hopeful that his new brother would have brown skin) , but I don't think it's a negative thing. Because they don't have the same experiences as someone like my father, who grew up in a segregated community, the difference between dark skin and pale, freckled skin is, to them, just like the difference between a brunette and a red head. It is a descriptor of a person's appearance. I don't believe that seeing someone's color as part of their personal beauty is racist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blessedfamily Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 (edited) That is interesting to me. I know that my boys notice skin color (ten years ago my older son was so hopeful that his new brother would have brown skin) , but I don't think it's a negative thing. Because they don't have the same experiences as someone like my father, who grew up in a segregated community, the difference between dark skin and pale, freckled skin is, to them, just like the difference between a brunette and a red head. It is a descriptor of a person's appearance. I don't believe that seeing someone's color as part of their personal beauty is racist. Â Â Â Again, neither do I think noticing someone's skin is racist. As I said, I introduced the subject to my daughter. To never mention her skin color would not be affirming to me. Â The point of my post was our children live in a different time than I did when race was THE WAY to identify people, and not in a flattering way. Â That doesn't mean that every time I see someone identify someone by their skin color that they are racist. Â Â Edited January 20, 2009 by Blessedfamily My tone was too sharp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tree House Academy Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 My nieces are bi-racial (my sister's husband is African American) so this is definitely something that just hits home for us. My kids love their cousins and have never once even mentioned that Madisyn and Cameryn are brown in color. They play together, we have family picnics together - there has just never been a divide for any reason...and I think this is why my kids were SHOCKED to think that uncle Darrin and their cousins would have had to sit elsewhere on the bus 50 years ago! Or that their cousins couldn't have gone to school with them and they would have had to drink from different water fountains and play on different parks. Thank GOD this is not the kind of world we live in now. Of course, racism still exists...so does rape and murder, but I think the election of our first African American President (I voted for McCain but not because Barack Obama is bi-racial) is proof positive that this country has changed...and that all started with a DREAM by a man named Martin Luthur King, Jr. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nova mama Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Â We don't think equality means denying anyone's race or skin color. Just that noone is inferior or superior based on that. Â You're right, Yvette. The Dream wasn't that we wouldn't see race, but that we wouldn't judge on that basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tree House Academy Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 Please...please...please don't let this topic get into something that discusses racism. This is NOT about racism and pinpointing what is and isn't racist. This is about celebrating the life and work of someone who made a real change in our country. I do not want this topic to have to be closed for being a heated subject. PLEASE. Let's just let those who celebrate share their ways of celebrating and leave it at that. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crissy Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Who said it was racist?  No one. I didn't make such a claim.  I think it is interesting that your daughter does not notice skin color, since I know that my boys do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emeraldjoy Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 We listened to the speach today. All through it I kept on thinking about hope. There is so much power in hope. Dr. Martin Luther King had this amazing wisdom to understand this concept of hope and the ability to pass it on to others. We also discussed courage. Â He really had no reason to hope, but because of his faith was able to, even though it made no sense pracitcally speaking. His hope was a seed that sprouted into so much, much more including the first president of color in the U.S. Â We also discussed racism today and how it plays out in different but very real ways than it did "back then". Â unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word in reality. That is why right, temporarily defeated, is stronger than evil triumphant...MLK peace, e Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammy Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 African American? If you are 1/2 Chinese and 1/2 American.....are you then considered Chinese? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tree House Academy Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 Being African American, with our family having many white friends, I have been slow to introduce the concept of racism to my children. (Thankfully) it makes very little sense to them, and I haven't wanted to give them any reason to be angry at white people--the ones we know today had nothing to do with what happened to black people in the past. But I have explained that a long time ago, black and white people couldn't be friends, couldn't go to school together, couldn't ride the bus together. I've told them that Martin Luther King, Jr., prayed for people, marched, and encouraged people to love each other regardless of race. I also explained that Obama's election is exciting because we've never had a president of African descent before. Like I said, thankfully, this doesn't make much sense to them. In a mock election at school, my son voted for McCain. I also voted for McCain (but I'm also happy about this historic occasion), my husband voted for Obama. We talk about politics in our home but I always tell my children that color doesn't matter. But I do want them to appreciate that they life we enjoy today is due in part to the work and sacrifice of others before us. As they mature, we will go into more depth and detail. As Christians, the overall theme of history for us God's mercy and grace in spite of man's sin. Â You know, I never really thought about explaining this day to African American children and how they may start to feel about the white people who harmed people of their own race so many years ago. Thank you for bringing this up - just for me to get another perspective on this thought. It breaks my heart.... I can only imagine how hard that would be for them. :crying: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blessedfamily Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 No one. I didn't make such a claim. I think it is interesting that your daughter does not notice skin color, since I know that my boys do.  She does now. Since I pointed out how beautiful they all are.:001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blessedfamily Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 African American? If you are 1/2 Chinese and 1/2 American.....are you then considered Chinese? Â Good question, since I found a little of everything in my family tree including Chinese. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nova mama Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 African American? If you are 1/2 Chinese and 1/2 American.....are you then considered Chinese? Â I should probably double-check, but on this thread I think Obama has been referred to as "of African descent" (by me, which is accurate because he as African ancestors) and biracial. I don't think he's been called African American on this thread, but I could be mistaken. Â But you raise a good point, Tammy. Many states actually had laws saying that if you if you had any African ancestry, you were considered black and treated accordingly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule#Legislation). I think that a lot of that feeling and perspective endures. But as many have said, we have come a long way from those days and that is cause for celebration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracey in TX Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 African American? If you are 1/2 Chinese and 1/2 American.....are you then considered Chinese? Â That's an interesting question. Anyone have an answer? :lurk5: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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