snickelfritz Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I'm pondering this as a friend is going through a situation. I have no authority here, so it's purely philosophical ponderings. a dad that: *tried vehemently to talk her into an abortion *wouldn't marry her *didn't want to be on the birth certificate *didn't want the child to have his last name *threatens to sue for custody when she tries to get money. He never follows through, since he doesn't want responsibility. But, it's enough to scare her into doing nothing. His desired intent. He's vaguely been around the child. Has paid some money, but only a fraction of what would have been court ordered. I'd be so tempted to do whatever I had to do to make it on my own. "Sure, you can see him. Call my lawyer and we'll set up visitation and child support arrangements. And by the way, you need to establish parentage....since you didn't want to be on the birth certificate." I'm not sure that's best for the child, though. Or is it? Maybe I'm letting my dislike for the "dad" color my judgement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JennifersLost Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Well, I've long wished someone would write a book about how to handle divorces like that. I'd read so much about how when parents split up they're "supposed to work together and everything is supposed to be perfectly fair, since both parents are equally important, after all", that it took me several years to take my boys' father to court and sue for full custody. The books make it sound like no matter what a jerk a man is to a woman he'll be just peachy around the kids. It's baloney, if you ask me. I have a good friend who, like me, split with the father of her boys around the same time I did. The dads were very alike - addicts, verbally abusive, manipulative, mean. He went further and physically abused her - eventually went to jail. She took the route of forgiveness. He's been in and out of her children's lives. Now one of her boys has started playing around with drugs, is in trouble constantly and the other is beginning to get into trouble, too. The man was a horrible influence - absolutely horrible. And she'd tell him to get out of their lives (or he'd leave for awhile) and then she'd let him back when he decided he was interested again. I've been the total opposite. There is no forgiveness here. I don't talk to him, I took the kids and moved 1800 miles away. Whenever he pokes his nose around, I track down any info I can find on him and sic the child support people on him again. As soon as his checks start being garnished he disappears. I've carried a considerable burden of guilt and uncertainty about this course, but my kids have had a calm upbringing for years now. The rules are clear. None of them have had a drink, a smoke or a hit of pot, and yes - I actually know this; they're just about never away from me (circumstances, not me being a mother hen). I worry that someday they'll come back and tell me that I've messed up their lives, but I don't regret what I've done. I know I've caused their father a lot of pain, too, but I don't regret it either. You don't know how strong or clear you are capable of being until your children's safety is on the line. If I was your friend I'd walk away and consider myself lucky the guy never took a paternity test. I would move to a whole new place and start over and build a new family (through extended family or friends) for my kids. And if it ever came to pass I'd marry someone else and let him become the father of my kids, because that's the other part of the equation. Having a deadbeat dad in the picture can make it impossible for a "real" man to step in and be a real father to the kids. Just my two cents... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swellmomma Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Yes and No. I ahve both here. THe older kids dad (my estranged husband) was a complete dead beat for years, no contact no child support etc. We were (still are) married, the kids were 2.5 and 18 months when we left almost 8 years ago and he has only seen them a half dozen times. He went from being the dad they saw most nights when he got home from work to cutting them out of his life completely. Last christmas he got a change of heart, signed over custody, started paying support, still doesn't see them. THe younger 2 are from sperm donors, but not in a clinic. As a result they have no fathers, I went into this knowing that so that is not an issue. My older 2 have had the heart break of a father that they previously knew, disappearing on them, not showing up to see them when it was planned, ignoring birthdays, xmas etc. They now have a dad who sends a birthday or xmas gift, and money each month but still chooses not to see them. They ask me often why he doesn't love them, why he doesn't want to be with them etc. In this case having no dad at all is better. That said, my 5 yr old who has no dad is starting to ask questions about his roots basically. I don't have the hassles I do with my older kids dad, BUT at least they have that part of them known kwim. My son knows he has a biological father out there that helped me have a baby when I wanted one so bad, but that person is not a dad kwim, so he doesn't have that connection with the other half of him. In the end I think having a dad is important, but if that dad is causing the child pain due to their actions, then it is better for the child to not have one at all based on my experience at least. Dads can bring so much to a child's life, but when they turn into a dead beat they do so much damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I'd be so tempted to do whatever I had to do to make it on my own. "Sure, you can see him. Call my lawyer and we'll set up visitation and child support arrangements. And by the way, you need to establish parentage....since you didn't want to be on the birth certificate." :iagree: Just being a sperm donor doesn't make him a father. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 It depends. I question the character and integrity of any parent who does not monetarily provide for their child over the long term. However, that does not automatically kick it into the any other category for me. I'd never assume "better than nothing" OR "completely worthless" from the non payment of child support. Worthless and worthwhile fathering is much more complicated than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Is a deadbeat dad better than no dad at all? No, I really don't think so. While I agree with Joanne that non-payment of child support isn't the only consideration, I think it does show a level of responsibility that is less than ideal. It breaks my heart to see kids who think Dad is just a great, misunderstood guy, but he never calls, never shows up on "his" weekends, doesn't remember birthdays -- doesn't keep his promises. They think he's wonderful because he's a ghost. He's never around to be the "bad guy" -- sending them to their room or making them eat their vegetables. I don't think the connection should be completely broken, though. When the kids are older, they can make up their own minds about him. So when they ask, "Why did you never come to see me? Or pay child support?" and he says, "Your mother wanted a baby, I didn't" -- that will pretty much clear it up for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danestress Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 (edited) That it's okay to not want to marry a woman you are sleeping with. I don't personally think it's okay to be having s@x outside of marriage, but she apparently was on board with that, so I don't hold that against him any more than her. And it's okay not to want to be on a birth certificate without proof of paternity. Even if she is swearing up and down that he's the only possible father, he can get proof of that. I know that's really insulting to a woman who has been monogamous, but unmarried lovers sometimes have these issues of trust (well, married ones do to, but most state consider husbands presumptive parents, so the birth certificate is less of an issue). And while I am personally opposed to abortion, people who don't believe that life starts at conception aren't opposed, and I think lots of people who later make reasonably good parents consider abortion. It makes me feel negatively about him, but it's not enough to make me think he's a horrible father. Your friend, if she wants support, needs to sue for support. This guy probably isn't going to get custody, though he will almost surely get visitation. If she doesn't want to sue for support, that's her choice. It would be really nice if the guy would have just offered to pay costs of pregnancy and support without being court ordered to do so, but it's not at all unusual. Most child support is court ordered. Once paternity is established and an order is in place if he still doesn't pay, he's more of what most of us think as "dead beat." Has she met with an attorney and really discussed what's going on? If he's a dangerous, evil person, I certainly understand he wanting not to pursue this, and just hoping he fades away. But in most cases, the child's right to support by both parents should be considered. And most children do want to know both parents. Edited January 10, 2009 by Danestress Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trivium Academy Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Until he legalizes paternity, he has no rights. He doesn't seem to want visitation from your post, or does he? If he does then he needs to get his signals straight- if you want something, you do whatever it takes to get it, establishing parental rights is his guarantee of being able to see the child, if he doesn't do that- then he doesn't truly want to be a 'father'. Until he shows responsibility, I would not pursue any type of relationship with him. It's not about being a deadbeat dad, money is not the true issue here. You cannot force someone to be responsible or to be a father, clearly it's not what he wants at this time. The woman did not make that decision, the man did - so hold him to his decision until he changes (establishes fraternity, shows vested interest in the child). I don't think a child deserves to be treated that way and I would look to the best interest of the child, not the father or even the mother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela H in Texas Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Generally, it is almost always better if there is some sort of relationship between a parent and child in terms of the child's best interest. In the OP, the only thing that really is of concern is that he continues not to want to take responsibility. I don't really hold that against him for when the child wasn't born or was JUST born (suggesting abortion, not signing bc, etc) just because men often take a bit of time to come around with fatherly feelings. The last thing is neglectful to the child and abusive to the mother though. But generally, a not so great dad who they can know and have some sort of relationship with is better than them wondering all their lives. My friend is getting a divorce. I REALLY dislike her hubby. I hate how he is with EVERYONE. There is something mentally wrong with the man. However, he loves his son and though he's not a great dad, he is the one this child has. There are all sorts of people in this world who have no business having/raising children. But they do them. ANd the kids are better off there the great majority of the time. It is terribly traumatic for a child to lose (or never have) a parent (or set of parents). Of course, there are times in divorce and otherwise when the child just cannot/shouldn't be with their parent(s). But it is much less often than deadbeat dads, nasty divorces, and just icky parenting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie12345 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 It's a tough call. My son's deadbeat dad has turned into a decent dad. He's an important part of ds's life. Otoh, my decent dad turned into a deadbeat dad, and I haven't allowed him into my life since I was 18 because, even as a legal adult, he brought nothing but pain and drama to my life. There is no right answer, but I do believe in the importance of following one's gut! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snickelfritz Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 (edited) He just doesn't want responsibility. He wants to take the kid for a night when it's convenient. Every few months or so. Even if his latest girlfriend is sleeping over. His parents want to spend time with the kid occasionally. It used to be about once a month, but I don't lately know how often they see the child. Rock and a hard place. Edited January 10, 2009 by snickelfritz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammyla Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I think as a mom, you try to do what you can as long as you can. Kids are little for a short time and often catch on long before you'd wish it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danestress Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I think she should seriously consider suing for support. Children have a legal right to financial support from both parents. No one will enforce that right, though, if Mom won't. If he wants to ask for more visitation, he can file for that. But there is a status quo at this point that makes it very unlikely he will get custody and if he gets additional visitation he may or may not want to expercise it, and she can ask the court to place conditions on it - like no over night visitors of the opposite sex. Jurisdictions vary, but I have seen any judges craft order that prohibit this "girl friend spending the night" scenario. My husband would tell you that most of the time in this kind of case a guy who is awarded more visitation won't exercise it much more than he did before, because he doesn't really want a lot of weekends. If she's always been friendly and non-controlling and allowed him easy access to the child, and he hasn't exercise that privilege, he's unlikely to suddenly change. Since she has let the child spend the night there occasionally, I am assuming that he isn't abusive. If that not true, then disregard my post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragons in the flower bed Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 = I would move to a whole new place and start over and build a new family (through extended family or friends) for my kids. And if it ever came to pass I'd marry someone else and let him become the father of my kids, because that's the other part of the equation. :iagree: This is more or less what I did, and I do not regret it at all. Toxic people are not good for their children. My ex comes into town once a year and has supervised visitation for a couple of hours, and my kids show six kinds of stress for a week or two afterward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 My thought on this is that while it is possible to not really come to grips with a possible baby, and then a baby, to look a 4 year old in the eye and not give a hoot denotes something deeply wrong with a person. I would move on, not demand money unless I was really hurting and there was no way I could support this child, and possibly encourage dad to eventually send a little present for holidays. If he gets the idea he won't be out child support, maybe his heart will soften a little. Maybe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 It all depends on the level of involvement the mother wants the father to have. 1. One friend of mine got divorced when her daughter was 3yo. Nasty divorce. The father was bitter and takes it out on the daughter. He paid minimal child support, did bi-weekly visitation for a few years until he met someone new, remarried, had another child. Now he only sees his daughter on holidays but still sends his disgracefully small child support checks. My friend does not go after more money because she prefers his lack of involvement and knows if she asked for more money, he would ask for more time. 2. Friend #2 is similar to your friend. Got pregnant, dad denies it, refuses to give her money. She did nothing for 17 years. She took her son, moved across country and raised him. The father had zero contact and wanted it that way. When her son turned 17yo, she sued for back child support payments, paternity testing was done and she won. Now the father is paying all that money he never paid AND her son is now old enough where they can't force him to see his father. She is using the money to pay for her son's college. It all depends on your desired result. If you want the money then you have to put up with the father's involvement. If you are willing to forgo the money, then walk away and write the father off as a lapse in judgment. My mom told me that I was the only thing my father ever did right! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawn of ns Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I have a friend who kept her deadbeat husband around because she thought a deadbeat dad was better then no dad. He was her daughter's model for a partner and her son's for a man. Now her daughter is a mom with a boyfriend who's a junior copy of said dad. I can't help wondering if it might have been much different if her mom had tossed out the father years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KidsHappen Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I did just the opposite and the results were disasterous. I let my ex have custody of my son because my son wanted to be with his father, his father had previously been a great father and I really believed that a boy needed his father. Well his father was great and everything was fine until he remarried. His new wife is bi-polar and non medicated. The things that she has done to my son are absolutely beyond belief. By the time I figured out what in the heck was going on and got my son out of there, he was 12 yrs. old and the damage had already been done. Even though my son spent pretty much the rest of his teen years with up he never recovered. He has drug and alcohol problems, mental health problems, legal problems and has currently been missing entirely for 18 months. The fact that the rest of my children have survived relatively intact is a miracle. The guilt is soul crushing. In my case a deadbeat dad that rarely saw his son would have been the much better opition for my child. ANd if I knew then what I know now, I would have made that happened and taken the heat as the bad guy who would let his father see him. The boy is 26 years old and it was just before he disappeared that he had started coming to terms with what a bad person his dad had turned out to be. The court can not make a man be a good father and sometimes a child is just better off without a father entirely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Your friend, if she wants support, needs to sue for support. This guy probably isn't going to get custody, though he will almost surely get visitation. If she doesn't want to sue for support, that's her choice. It would be really nice if the guy would have just offered to pay costs of pregnancy and support without being court ordered to do so, but it's not at all unusual. Most child support is court ordered. And if it isn't, I wouldn't pay it either -- not after our "learning experience" with the California child support system. All money -- thousands of dollars in rent, utilities, cash -- paid to the mother before child support was ordered was considered a "gift" by the court. So much for doing the "right" thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Buckin' Longhorn Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I didn't read all of the other replies, but my sister is living a very unhappy experience. She had a male partner (definitely not a man) who was very resistant to any sort of responsibility regarding their child, so she hauled him into court and had child support as well as visitation court ordered. So what he does is shows up for his visitation, drops my niece off with his mother, a friend, a co-worker or uses her to babysit his 4 children he has with his new wife. Meanwhile he pays about $200 a year in child support when the court has ordered at least 10 times that and he makes a lot of money. She has been going back and forth for 10 years with the courts here to get her child support, no one will enforce it but she was threatened with jail time when she refused to honor the visitation schedule, up to and including a county sheriff showing up at her house to make sure she sent the child at the assigned visitations. My niece hates going with her sperm donor, even though we have all made a conscious effort to never speak ill of him and encourage her to go and enjoy her time with him. The only time my sister has even tried to get her not to go is when there have been extra curricular activities that overlap his visitation weekends, family vacations and other things like that. Bio donor refuses to trade weekends or anything remotely reasonable. The child is in therapy and has stress and acting out because she has expressed that she doesn't want to go, but since there is no actual physical or sexual abuse, the courts feel it's in her best interest to continue with the visitation. It's the most terrible and sad situation I have ever seen. I, on the other hand, had a male partner who seemed to be ducking and dodging all responsibility when I was pregnant as well as the first couple of months of my son's life. Although it was hard and against everything I believed in, I walked away from him and never looked back 14 1/2 years ago. I haven't seen or heard from him since, and I am so glad I made that decision. When I look at the life I live versus the life my sister lives, I would chose mine every time. She is stuck in a loveless triangle/power struggle with her ex, the court system, and her child. She's miserable. It takes up so much of her time and energy that she has never had one moment to emotionally invest in another relationship. I fear until her child is grown up and out of the home, she will never have another meaningful relationship. No one is willing to jump into that hot bed, and I don't blame them. Anyway, I know this is way more than you probably wanted to know. But although this has been my family's experience, I have seen it happen to several other female friends. I just always caution to be careful what you put into motion, because once you get it started, it can be impossible to stop it. My sister tells me at least once a month that she wishes she had let her ex male partner walk away when he wanted to. What she and her child got in return for keeping him in their lives is not nearly what she had imagined it would be. You cannot make anyone grow up by throwing responsibility at them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crissy Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 As Joanne said, it depends. In my case, one parent was better than two when my older son was born. His biological father was full of threats (some of which were incredibly frightening), but in the end, he did not want the responsibility of a child. I went to court seeking full custody and my son's father did not show up to the final hearing to defend his rights. The courts granted me everything I asked for. No custody, no visitation for him. No contact. No child support. I wanted and received absolute separation from him. My son and I were on our own for three years before I met a wonderful man who wanted to be my husband and my son's dad. My husband has been the most incredible parent over the past eleven years. It takes so much more than biology to be a great dad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Wow. I really think that is vindictive and wrong. If she didn't want him in her kid's life she should have left it that way. This sounds like a scam! It definitely surprised me but I don't think it was a "scam". The dad did not WANT to be a part of the child's life (she never actually DENIED him the opportunity) and he never OFFERED any money for the 17 years. So she raised the child by herself, sacrificed much as a single mom, but that does not relieve the dad of his responsibility to the child. She just decided to wait until the dad would not be able to USE the child as a bargaining chip and then she made him cough up the money he should have been paying all along. Let's face it, kids are expensive and that child is half his...he was in the room when the child was created so he is half responsible. Just because he doesn't want to SEE the child doesn't mean he isn't responsible for the costs of raising a child he helped create. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jill- OK Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 My own 'deadbeat' dad was a long-term substance abuser, and probably suffered from undiagnosed mental illness. He was mostly just irresponsible in small ways...but I can think of (at least) two times as a child when I was probably in danger, while under his care. I can remember the police coming to our house...my dad showing up drunk to one of my school plays...etc., etc. My mom continued to let him be involved (she also continued to try and get reliable child support from him), and while I can't say she didn't badmouth him, lol...she at least tried to keep it to a minimum. (She wasn't a perfect parent, either, btw.) I think she did the right thing. My dad had a huge turn around later in life, and became one of the best fathers/grandfathers you could ask for. He died a few years ago, and when my younger sister came to the funeral--a half-sister from a different mother who was adopted by her stepfather and didn't have any contact with my dad after very early childhood--I ached for her when she expressed the regret she had over not having more time with this later version of him. She had no knowledge of the man we were all talking about...she only knew the bogeyman stories she'd heard from her mom. (Her mother and stepfather later divorced...another painful story all its own.) Although she tried to get to know my dad as a teen/adult, it was awkward and they never really bonded. He left it up to her, and she ultimately decided not to pursue the relationship. I don't know how much difference it makes, between our two situations, that I knew my dad all along, and had him as a part of my life, all along...but I know that it's easier for me to navigate--and benefit from-- long term relationships through a variety of stages, and I'd hazard a guess that it's true for most folks. I ended up mostly normal. (I do have issues that I can attribute to various aspects of my childhood, but folks with stable/intact homes do, too). Personally, I think that a lot of the responses to childhood situations are individual, rather than givens. Some folks who grew up in abusive homes turn out to be abusers themselves, and some grow up to be even more sensitive and caring than the average, as a sort of pendulum swing in the other direction. I say that because while I can understand a parent's desire to keep a child from a bad influence, or a less than ideal parent...I believe that we learn from our parents' weaknesses, as well as their strengths, and I also believe that my life is richer for the bad times I saw with my dad, as well as the good times. I would have an incomplete history if I didn't have the heartache, too. Now, of course I'm not advocating putting children in situations where they would be in real, continual danger, and I hope that no one who has shared stories about protecting children from abusive exes thinks that I'm judging them. Everyone knows their own situations and what does or doesn't apply. But there's a whole spectrum of levels of involvement between 'no contact' and 'sending a toddler off for an unsupervised weekend with a dangerous dude'. JMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonshineLearner Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 (edited) It definitely surprised me but I don't think it was a "scam". The dad did not WANT to be a part of the child's life (she never actually DENIED him the opportunity) and he never OFFERED any money for the 17 years. So she raised the child by herself, sacrificed much as a single mom, but that does not relieve the dad of his responsibility to the child. She just decided to wait until the dad would not be able to USE the child as a bargaining chip and then she made him cough up the money he should have been paying all along. Let's face it, kids are expensive and that child is half his...he was in the room when the child was created so he is half responsible. Just because he doesn't want to SEE the child doesn't mean he isn't responsible for the costs of raising a child he helped create. I think it does make it so that he shouldn't be required to help...maybe offer....but not legally. I wanted to "let" my ex out of responsibility. I know that the law says that my daughter deserves the help of her father, but that BIO guy really screws with her brain! My husband is a great day. If I had to do it again, when I found I was pregnant....I would have put on my runnin' shoes and flown as far away as I could...without telling him! I did fly away, but now I get stuck with her visiting him 3 times a year for a few days at a time. It sucks. Hope it makes her life easier to know him....than if I had done it my "now preferred way." Carrie:-) Edited January 10, 2009 by NayfiesMama forgot the quote Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 a dad that: *tried vehemently to talk her into an abortion *wouldn't marry her *didn't want to be on the birth certificate *didn't want the child to have his last name *threatens to sue for custody when she tries to get money. He never follows through, since he doesn't want responsibility. But, it's enough to scare her into doing nothing. His desired intent. He's vaguely been around the child. Has paid some money, but only a fraction of what would have been court ordered. Hmm... in my book that isn't even a Dad to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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