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H5N1 news (bird flu)

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Halftime Hope

Halftime Hope

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7 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

When our family all had the swine flu (minus the youngest, born over a year later,) we really didn’t know it was a big deal. I was drowning in momming and not the news. It was awful, but we were treated and fine.

How were you treated, @Carrie12345? (Just a curiosity question.)

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Faith-manor

Faith-manor

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I am just waiting for this to hit egg prices in Michigan. 

I know a pregnant woman who is still drinking raw milk while waiting on a test for her cows. Her backyard hens have it. I have no idea if there could be any transmission through raw milk, but yikes, given the exposure to her hens and the possibility the cow is sick, I wouldn't want to be risking that. Does anyone know if H5N1 has any adverse effects on fetuses if mom gets it? Not that it matters. This woman is merely an acquaintance. It wouldn't be my place to say anything.

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prairiewindmomma

prairiewindmomma

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2 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

I am just waiting for this to hit egg prices in Michigan. 

I know a pregnant woman who is still drinking raw milk while waiting on a test for her cows. Her backyard hens have it. I have no idea if there could be any transmission through raw milk, but yikes, given the exposure to her hens and the possibility the cow is sick, I wouldn't want to be risking that. Does anyone know if H5N1 has any adverse effects on fetuses if mom gets it? Not that it matters. This woman is merely an acquaintance. It wouldn't be my place to say anything.

It’s been hitting our egg supply for years. Avian flu has taken out tens of thousands of domestic birds in my state as well as a lot of wild birds. I am not so worried about egg availability. The commercial egg producers keep pretty tight biocontrols, and they’ve been able to bounce back after large culls. We just keep a larger (10dozen) backstash of eggs in our garage fridge.

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Faith-manor

Faith-manor

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2 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Avian flu has traditionally hit pregnant women hard. It crosses the placenta and affects pulmonary function in women. Pregnant women have atypical immune systems and are more prone to infection. 
 

 

Yikes! That does not bode well. She does home births with a "midwife", but I don't know if the midwife is an actual trained one. Michigan requires a master's in nursing to be a CNM plus a minimum number of years experience as an obstetrics/LDRP nurse. So I don't  know if this gal is getting good information. Sadly though, we do not have the kind of relationship in which I can bring it up in any kind of gentle, in passing way. Sigh.

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mommyoffive

mommyoffive

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https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/h5n1-update-we-have-to-do-better?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=281219&post_id=143897875&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjo0MzgwODk0MCwicG9zdF9pZCI6MTQzODk3ODc1LCJpYXQiOjE3MTQwNDMyNjksImV4cCI6MTcxNjYzNTI2OSwiaXNzIjoicHViLTI4MTIxOSIsInN1YiI6InBvc3QtcmVhY3Rpb24ifQ.bpvPGsYQulaFQs9kuTd_dVs0sUgbUv_rzro3dxx1_wE&r=q2z70&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email

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Ausmumof3

Ausmumof3

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https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/avian-influenza-bird-flu/1-5-us-retail-milk-samples-test-positive-h5n1-avian-flu-fragments
 

1 in 5 US milk samples is testing positive for h5n1 fragments. I feel like this is not a huge issue and won’t be infectious, but it does indicate how widespread the disease is. If I had someone in my life who was super dependent on a milk based product (e.g. baby formula) I think I would try to have some extra stock in hand in case of supply disruptions, after seeing how Covid impacted things.

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Corraleno

Corraleno

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Farm cats at a Texas dairy caught H5N1 from drinking unpasteurized milk, with a fatality rate of 50%. From the conclusion: "The recurring nature of global HPAI H5N1 virus outbreaks and detection of spillover events in a broad host range is concerning and suggests increasing virus adaptation in mammals."
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/30/7/24-0508_article

This article discusses H5N1 infection in seals, sea lions, and multiple species of dolphins and whales, in many parts of the world, indicating just how widespread it is. Also concerning is the extent to which H5N1 infects the brain and causes severe neurological symptoms in mammals (including the cats discussed in the article above).
 https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-024-06173-x

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popmom

popmom

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I am doing some preparations this week. Even shelf stable milk like Parmalat doesn’t keep longer than 6 months. Does anyone have recommendation for a powdered milk product that can actually be reconstituted to something drinkable? I don’t drink milk, but my kids do. And I cook with it some. And do powdered milk products have a longer shelf life than Parmalat?

off to google 

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kbutton

kbutton

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30 minutes ago, popmom said:

I am doing some preparations this week. Even shelf stable milk like Parmalat doesn’t keep longer than 6 months. Does anyone have recommendation for a powdered milk product that can actually be reconstituted to something drinkable? I don’t drink milk, but my kids do. And I cook with it some. And do powdered milk products have a longer shelf life than Parmalat?

off to google 

https://www.thespruceeats.com/does-powdered-milk-go-bad-1388298#:~:text=Most manufacturers recommend using powdered,printed "best by" date.
 

I assume you can also reconstitute evaporated milk as another option.

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Katy

Katy

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1 hour ago, popmom said:

I am doing some preparations this week. Even shelf stable milk like Parmalat doesn’t keep longer than 6 months. Does anyone have recommendation for a powdered milk product that can actually be reconstituted to something drinkable? I don’t drink milk, but my kids do. And I cook with it some. And do powdered milk products have a longer shelf life than Parmalat?

off to google 

So enough members of my family have milk issues now that I’ve switched to Costco’s shelf stable unsweetened almond milk. But before I had my youngest two I’d sometimes use powdered milk.  There’s a couple ways to make it taste better: 1) Mix it in the blender and then store in the fridge AT LEAST 12 hours before tasting it, the cold improves the flavor. And/or 2) Make it a very mild “vanilla milk” by adding a pinch of sugar and 1/4 t vanilla extract when you mix it. 

Or add a lot of vanilla & sugar if you want teen boys to drink a lot. The person who told me this tip invited her son’s soccer team over every Friday night all summer and got them to eat salad and drink milk with their pizza. She’s one of those anti-screen types who is constantly looking for ways to make her house the fun hangout without screen time, all phones put in a tray by the door. 

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Katy

Katy

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On 4/12/2024 at 3:54 PM, Happy2BaMom said:

Yes. It's interesting, but it still doesn't sound like they can confirm that either were specifically a bird flu that jumped to humans. Maybe more in the second than the first, but it's still not a direct leap.

Either way, it's still a long way from Katy's hospital telling her that bird (& swine) flu epidemics were common and occur about every 10 years.

I’m sorry, I didn’t see this until now. I think you’re looking for data that cannot exist because we didn’t have widespread genetic testing available until the 90’s, and we certainly weren’t testing viral genetics throughout history. So you’re looking at best, 30 years of verifiable data. But it’s not a huge leap to realize that throughout history there have been domestic flocks wiped out in 24-48 hours, often followed by humans having flu like symptoms for 5-10 days, some of which died. So bird flu was recognized as a health problem before modern testing made it verifiable. That sort of public health data doesn’t have genetics attached, but it’s still reasonable to assume it’s correct. 

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kbutton

kbutton

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57 minutes ago, Katy said:

I’m sorry, I didn’t see this until now. I think you’re looking for data that cannot exist because we didn’t have widespread genetic testing available until the 90’s, and we certainly weren’t testing viral genetics throughout history. So you’re looking at best, 30 years of verifiable data. But it’s not a huge leap to realize that throughout history there have been domestic flocks wiped out in 24-48 hours, often followed by humans having flu like symptoms for 5-10 days, some of which died. So bird flu was recognized as a health problem before modern testing made it verifiable. That sort of public health data doesn’t have genetics attached, but it’s still reasonable to assume it’s correct. 

I assume the little ditty from the 1918 pandemic was just a cute kid thing to use when jumping rope, but it makes me wonder if it came from a connection people made…I have a little bird, his name is Enza; I opened up the door and influenza (in flew enza).

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Katy

Katy

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1 hour ago, kbutton said:

I assume the little ditty from the 1918 pandemic was just a cute kid thing to use when jumping rope, but it makes me wonder if it came from a connection people made…I have a little bird, his name is Enza; I opened up the door and influenza (in flew enza).

I think they dug up frozen bodies from permafrost and determined the genetic cause of the flu in that case, but I’m sorry to say I don’t recall the details or nursery rhymes. 😂

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Corraleno

Corraleno

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3 minutes ago, Katy said:

I think they dug up frozen bodies from permafrost and determined the genetic cause of the flu in that case, but I’m sorry to say I don’t recall the details or nursery rhymes. 😂

That's exactly right, scientists were able to sequence the virus from preserved bodies and figure out where the mutation occurred that allowed it to make the jump from birds to people. This was published in 2004:

"Scientists at the Medical Research Council have discovered the crucial structural changes the avian influenza virus underwent that resulted in its killing 20 million people worldwide in 1918—more people than were killed in the first world war and making it the largest pandemic in history.

The study, published last week in the online version of Science (5 February; www.sciencemag.org/sciencexpress/recent.shtml), found that subtle alterations to the shape of a protein molecule, called haemaglutanin (HA), on the virus allowed transmission from birds to humans, among whom it spread rapidly to infect an estimated billion people—half the world's population at the time.

The haemaglutanin molecule protrudes from the surface of the virus as a series of spikes and enables it to lock on to receptors on the surface of cells in the body. It then gains entry into the cell to infect it.

Human and bird virus haemaglutanins interact with different receptors, which means that bird viruses are normally unable to be transmitted to humans. But in the 1918 virus the shape of the haemaglutanin changed subtly, giving it the capability to attach to receptors in human cells as well as bird cells. This structural change first allowed bird to human and then human to human transmission, resulting in the pandemic."

Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC341380/

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kbutton

kbutton

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17 minutes ago, Katy said:

I think they dug up frozen bodies from permafrost and determined the genetic cause of the flu in that case, but I’m sorry to say I don’t recall the details or nursery rhymes. 😂

I heard this rhyme I a documentary about the 1918 pandemic.

I am really just wondering if people connected birds to the 1918 pandemic if, as Katy said, the association has been known between sick birds and people for a long time. I know about the digging people up.

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prairiewindmomma

prairiewindmomma

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Of course if it is in dairy cows it is in beef cows. Testing only lactating cows before transport is ridiculous. We’ve long been in the “medicine as theater” era—where we are not making evidence based best practice decisions. 
 

That said, I am a bit reassured we arent seeing mass herd death at this point. 

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TexasProud

TexasProud

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Hey I have a question.  We have a sweet family that live across the street. (Our only one actually.  We live on a very rural road and there is no one for a mile on either side of us on our side of the street.  They have chickens and have brought us eggs in the past. (They also bring us fresh tamales and other Mexican goodies... YUM)  Their daughter mentioned how their rooster just dropped dead for no apparent reason.

Of course, I thought about this thread.  Is there anything I should say to her?  The parents don't speak English.  If she brings over eggs, anything I should do special other than washing them before eating and making sure they are fully cooked? 

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Mom_to3

Mom_to3

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Interesting summary on the current situation. Pretty pathetic.https://www.politico.com/news/2024/05/10/feds-to-spend-millions-to-contain-bird-flu-outbreak-amid-testing-lag-00157352

And oh, about that rooster...that's a difficult situation. Are there resources in the county to help (free testing?). How old is the child if you wanted to mention that there is a bird flu going around (but again, I would try to provide resources)?

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TexasProud

TexasProud

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Yeah I googled and I see absolutely no information about testing on backyard hens/roosters. None. 

The two girls are 14 and 8. 

They are the ones who keep an eye on our place and feed the cat when we are gone. 

Sweet girls.  They brought me some potted flowers for mother's day.

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Faith-manor

Faith-manor

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12 hours ago, TexasProud said:

Hey I have a question.  We have a sweet family that live across the street. (Our only one actually.  We live on a very rural road and there is no one for a mile on either side of us on our side of the street.  They have chickens and have brought us eggs in the past. (They also bring us fresh tamales and other Mexican goodies... YUM)  Their daughter mentioned how their rooster just dropped dead for no apparent reason.

Of course, I thought about this thread.  Is there anything I should say to her?  The parents don't speak English.  If she brings over eggs, anything I should do special other than washing them before eating and making sure they are fully cooked? 

Everything I have read seems to indicate that bird flu does not transmit through properly cooked eggs. Cooked was always mentioned, so maybe avoid making homemade mayo or eating sunny side up eggs.

Contact your county extension office and ask about testing for backyard flocks. I wouldn't bother mentioning anything to this family if testing isn't even available. We do have testing for it in my county because it is a bio security test that has to take place in order for 4H members to show their poultry. but I don't know if it is available all year or just prior to county fair.

Keep an eye on birds in your yard. According to our DNR, if you find more than one dead wild bird on your property that do not show signs of obvious trauma like a cat caught it, this is concerning. 

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Faith-manor

Faith-manor

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1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

If there's anything the last few years have taught me, it's that the average person is waaaaay stupider than I ever imagined. 😕 

The movies Idiocracy and Don't Look Up were apparently documentaries. Sigh.

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fairfarmhand

fairfarmhand

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On 5/12/2024 at 5:25 PM, prairiewindmomma said:

Of course if it is in dairy cows it is in beef cows. Testing only lactating cows before transport is ridiculous. We’ve long been in the “medicine as theater” era—where we are not making evidence based best practice decisions. 
 

That said, I am a bit reassured we arent seeing mass herd death at this point. 

Beef Cows are pretty tough. And I'm sure we'll see lots of it in dairy herds but not so much in beef herds. Beef herds (with the exception of the CAFOs which I don't really consider a herd) are generally out on a field eating grass and hay and spreading out. (They do use the same waterers) This is a much healthier life for cattle than being in a dairy barn. For the beef herds, if a cow is sick for a couple of days, unless she's really really sick, the farmer might not notice. She's sitting under a tree feeling bad and then gets over it. If she's off feed and not making as much milk, nobody notices. 

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KSera

KSera

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39 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Beef herds (with the exception of the CAFOs which I don't really consider a herd) are generally out on a field eating grass and hay and spreading out.

If CAFOs were rare and all beef cattle were 100% grass fed, I agree the risk would be low. With factory farming (which is probably the more common source of beef?), I don’t actually see that transmission would necessarily be any different than with dairy cows. Even in cases where cattle are able to spread out, this appears to be fecal-oral transmission. Any farm that’s feeding grain stored in the open to the livestock is at risk. The birds get into the grain and the grain is then contaminated and the cows eat it. The water troughs would be a risk as well.

The illness doesn’t appear to be severe in cows, so I agree it would likely go unnoticed in beef cattle. Which doesn’t seem like a good thing. 

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prairiewindmomma

prairiewindmomma

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1 hour ago, fairfarmhand said:

Beef Cows are pretty tough. And I'm sure we'll see lots of it in dairy herds but not so much in beef herds. Beef herds (with the exception of the CAFOs which I don't really consider a herd) are generally out on a field eating grass and hay and spreading out. (They do use the same waterers) This is a much healthier life for cattle than being in a dairy barn. For the beef herds, if a cow is sick for a couple of days, unless she's really really sick, the farmer might not notice. She's sitting under a tree feeling bad and then gets over it. If she's off feed and not making as much milk, nobody notices. 

Small farms may keep a few beef on pasture for family use, but coming from cattle country—total inventory of all beef is at 28.22 million, 11.8 million of that on feed lots for finishing before slaughter as of April 1 (latest published stats). It’s not an insignificant number in close quarters, in common muck.

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prairiewindmomma

prairiewindmomma

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6 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Hope you will forgive this very small rabbit trail.

But the resistance to all of this reminds me of the TB testing in All Creatures Great and Small. 

Yup. That and beef supply is already constrained due to years of drought affecting grazing range quality and higher corn/feed costs. Smaller to midrange producers are hanging on by their fingertips in a lot of places in the Plains states. They cant handle a loss/ban from sale.

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Corraleno

Corraleno

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New paper in Nature showing airborne transmission for H5N1 in mammals, as well as identifying the specific mutation that makes it both more transmissible and more deadly. The virus used in the experiments was collected in October 2022 during an outbreak in mink.

Excerpts:

H5N1 "transmits by direct contact to 75% of exposed ferrets and, in airborne transmission studies, the virus transmits to 37.5% of contacts. .... The H5N1 virus also has a low infectious dose and remains virulent at low doses. This isolate carries the adaptive mutation, PB2 T271A, and reversing this mutation reduces mortality and airborne transmission. This is the first report of a H5N1 clade 2.3.4.4b virus exhibiting direct contact and airborne transmissibility in ferrets. These data indicate heightened pandemic potential of the panzootic H5N1 viruses and emphasize the need for continued efforts to control outbreaks and monitor viral evolution."

Kinda scary: "H5N1 induced severe disease even when applied at a minimal infectious dose," and "The low median infectious dose observed for A/mink (H5N1) was comparable to the two most recent pandemic influenza viruses."

Comparing the effect of the wild virus with the PB2 T271A mutation to the same virus without that mutation (i.e. the T271A mutation was reversed to T271T): In the directly-infected ferrets, the fatality rate was 100% with the T271A mutation vs 25% without it, and there was no airborne transmission for the reversed-mutation strain (1 ferret did have traces of the virus, but did not get sick). So it seems that the T271A mutation has made the virus both more deadly, even at a very low dose, and more easily spread via airborne transmission.

Source: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-48475-y

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Corraleno

Corraleno

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1 hour ago, KSera said:

That’s horrible @Corraleno 😞. Makes it just great that NC is trying to make even medical masks illegal in public 😡. If this makes the jump, I kind of think we’re completely screwed at this point. 

I was watching a video last night about the famous Framingham Heart Study, which included a tour of the facility where the researchers interview and examine the thousands of subjects who have been part of the study for up to 75 years. It's a clinical setting, where they draw blood and perform other tests, and some of the research subjects are very old, so the staff were wearing masks. There were SO many comments along the lines of "Why are those idiots wearing masks in 2024??? I can't take any 'scientist' seriously if they're so brainwashed by political propaganda that they think masks do anything!"  

And this was on the channel of a scientist with a Stanford PhD, whose health and nutrition videos are always 100% science based, with full references cited and linked — not the type of channel that typically attracts science deniers. But when it comes to masks, people just lose their freaking minds and all capacity for critical thinking goes out the window. It's so bizarre.

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KSera

KSera

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1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

But when it comes to masks, people just lose their freaking minds and all capacity for critical thinking goes out the window. It's so bizarre.

It totally is. I don’t get it at all.

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Faith-manor

Faith-manor

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19 hours ago, Corraleno said:

I was watching a video last night about the famous Framingham Heart Study, which included a tour of the facility where the researchers interview and examine the thousands of subjects who have been part of the study for up to 75 years. It's a clinical setting, where they draw blood and perform other tests, and some of the research subjects are very old, so the staff were wearing masks. There were SO many comments along the lines of "Why are those idiots wearing masks in 2024??? I can't take any 'scientist' seriously if they're so brainwashed by political propaganda that they think masks do anything!"  

And this was on the channel of a scientist with a Stanford PhD, whose health and nutrition videos are always 100% science based, with full references cited and linked — not the type of channel that typically attracts science deniers. But when it comes to masks, people just lose their freaking minds and all capacity for critical thinking goes out the window. It's so bizarre.

I think the human race is doomed if this kind of insanity continues.

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