advice needed,

[gardenmom5]

Thank you for your thoughts.

There are too many comments that have started to stray into  . . .  other territory that are not my question.

I will be deleting responses.
 

Edited December 15, 2023 by gardenmom5

[Grace Hopper]

I may not be the best to answer this today; last night I finally watched Banshees of Inisherin. With that in mind, I would proceed very carefully. Specifically about the card, I would return in equal measure: a Christmas card that, as printed, has a short and mild message (nothing that may possibly offend). I’d sign it exactly as the card to you was signed. Mirror their offering. 
 

fwiw I guess what’s done is done, but I would not send anything back “return to sender.” That seems to slam shut any door to reconciliation. 

[fairfarmhand]

I don't think I'd return to sender. I'd send a card with a plain old Merry Christmas and your names on it. And leave it at that. Yes, they're being petty and childish but it wont help if you are too.

[Catwoman]

I would send a card and say something like, "Thanks for the card -- it was such a nice surprise! Merry Christmas to you, too! We love you and you're welcome here any time."

I would be hoping and praying that the Christmas card was a little olive branch, and I would treat it as such. Any pleasant communication is good communication at this point, right? I would want my child to know they were loved, and not just send a generic card like I would send to a casual acquaintance, because if the kid is hoping for any kind of future reconciliation, sending nothing more than "Merry Christmas" back to them would probably be seen as cold and unfeeling.

And yes, I know that the card you received seemed kind of cold and unfeeling, but it's still light years better than no card at all, so I would want to acknowledge it in a loving (but not smothering or demanding) way.

I'm so sorry you're walking this emotional tightrope, Kristen. (I wish we still had that hug emoji!)

Edited December 15, 2023 by Catwoman
Forgot something!

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

I have nothing to add except that I am sorry you’re dealing with this.  

[YaelAldrich]

I would echo what others have said. In your mind go through with sending the card back, boldly marked RETURN TO SENDER. Then say thank you to those feelings and put them away.

I would send a card with our handwritten names and a warm (but not gushy) wish for a happy holiday and new year. And that you love them. 

Kids, especially the errant ones, need to feel our unconditional love (even if it feels like it will kill us). Two of my four children send us up the river sometimes (most of the time?) but what we have learned is that just loving them calmly and peacefully is the only way to bring down the hackles and give them a space for any sort of reconciliation on their terms.

There is a Rabbi who talks about this a lot. Rabbi Yakov Horowitz. You can find his video clips on Instagram and FB. There is another Rabbi (Rabbi Avi Fishoff) who has a program called Twisted Parenting which is this style of parenting difficult children on steroids. 

I wish you patience, eternal love, and more patience for all your children.

Edited December 15, 2023 by YaelAldrich
Added more details

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, Catwoman said:

I would send a card and say something like, "Thanks for the card -- it was such a nice surprise! Merry Christmas to you, too! We love you and you're welcome here any time."

I would be hoping and praying that the Christmas card was a little olive branch, and I would treat it as such. Any pleasant communication is good communication at this point, right? I would want my child to know they were loved, and not just send a generic card like I would send to a casual acquaintance, because if the kid is hoping for any kind of future reconciliation, sending nothing more than "Merry Christmas" back to them would probably be seen as cold and unfeeling.

And yes, I know that the card you received seemed kind of cold and unfeeling, but it's still light years better than no card at all, so I would want to acknowledge it in a loving (but not smothering or demanding) way.

I'm so sorry you're walking this emotional tightrope, Kristen. (I wish we still had that hug emoji!)

I appreciate the hugs.

I feel like it needs to stick with nothing but a simple merry christmas, love mom and dad (Or Kristen & B they have been calling us by our first names . . .which is uncomfortable for me. though I've referred to us by our first names to humor this one before. )  I don't know - I can talk to the two that are still in communication . . . they might have some insights.

the sibling they will not speak to got a birthday card, just a happy birthday, name.  (this kid was joking they got their own nine page rage letter - that was before it was opened and it was just a card.)  No response to an email or dropping off a gift by banned kid.  I don't think there was even an acknowledgement.   In some ways, how this sibling has been treated angers me even more than how dh and I have been treated the last year and a half+ (there were so many eggshells before communication was cut off.)
 

[Kassia]

2 hours ago, YaelAldrich said:

 

Kids, especially the errant ones, need to feel our unconditional love (even if it feels like it will kill us). Two of my four children send us up the river sometimes (most of the time?) but what we have learned is that just loving them calmly and peacefully is the only way to bring down the hackles and give them a space for any sort of reconciliation on their terms.

There is a Rabbi who talks about this a lot. Rabbi Yakov Horowitz. You can find his video clips on Instagram and FB. There is another Rabbi (Rabbi Avi Fishoff) who has a program called Twisted Parenting which is this style of parenting difficult children on steroids. 

I wish you patience, eternal love, and more patience for all your children.

This is lovely.  

I don't really have any advice.  We have one who we've gone through this with (things are great now, but we know could turn any time) and it was so painful and confusing.  We just always let him know that we're here for him whenever he's ready to come back and love him always.  Parenting can be so hard on the heart with kids like these and it's impossible to know what is *best* at any time.  Sending hugs and hopes that things get better soon.

 

[Innisfree]

4 hours ago, Catwoman said:

And yes, I know that the card you received seemed kind of cold and unfeeling, but it's still light years better than no card at all, so I would want to acknowledge it in a loving (but not smothering or demanding) way.

 

4 hours ago, YaelAldrich said:

I would send a card with our handwritten names and a warm (but not gushy) wish for a happy holiday and new year. And that you love them.

These.

The fact that they’re sending a card at all indicates that they want some kind of relationship. They may not be showering you with love right now, but they are thinking of you, and they care enough to continue some communication. Don’t do anything that will come across as critical, or anything that will seem over the top or demanding. Even though they’re grown, you’re still the parent, so emotional maturity and calm, loving stability is the way to go. I hope your patience bears fruit.

[pinball]

Your family has been severely negatively impacted by generational trauma. You’ve described it here enough.

Just as you came to understand the damage done to you as you got older, it sounds like like your kids are realizing the damage done to THEM. You are very good at listing all the offenses don’t TO you. You need to turn that skill around and see what you have done to HER.

Your daughter is struggling. From the outside it looks like she wants a relationship but doesn’t know how the specifics of that will play out. 

One thing that people who have lived with chaos and dysfunction as children do is recreate that chaos and dysfunction as adults. It’s hard to break the habit even when you recognize it. I think that is what your daughter and you are both doing. 

Don’t involve your other kids. 

Send a card and sign it the way you’d sign cards when she was a kid…whether it was “Love you so much” or “Love” or whatever…and then Mom and Dad.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[scholastica]

I agree with those that said send a simple Merry Christmas the way the child did. Also, sign it how you would like to referred to. If you and your dh would still like to be called Mom and Dad by your children, that’s not an outrageous ask. You have the right to decide what people call you, just like your child does. Boundaries go both ways. I’m sorry that your family is dealing with this.

[TarynB]

3 hours ago, pinball said:

Your family has been severely negatively impacted by generational trauma. You’ve described it here enough.

Just as you came to understand the damage done to you as you got older, it sounds like like your kids are realizing the damage done to THEM. You are very good at listing all the offenses don’t TO you. You need to turn that skill around and see what you have done to HER.

Your daughter is struggling. From the outside it looks like she wants a relationship but doesn’t know how the specifics of that will play out. 

One thing that people who have lived with chaos and dysfunction as children do is recreate that chaos and dysfunction as adults. It’s hard to break the habit even when you recognize it. I think that is what your daughter and you are both doing. 

Don’t involve your other kids. 

Send a card and sign it the way you’d sign cards when she was a kid…whether it was “Love you so much” or “Love” or whatever…and then Mom and Dad.

 

 

 

 

 

 

As someone who has been on both sides of this situation (child and parent) and has seen it play out with other relatives, I believe THIS is the way to handle it if you want to ever have a relationship with them in the future. It seems to me your child WANTS a relationship with you, but you are the parents, so they still feel "less than" you. They are reaching out just enough to keep a connection because they feel afraid and/or unworthy in your eyes. It is hard for you too, no doubt. Always take the high road - you are the parent, and they see you as in control no matter what and no matter how old they are.

And def. don't involve your other kids, IMO. That just adds fuel to the fire, people taking sides.

Edited December 15, 2023 by TarynB

[SKL]

I would continue to send Christmas and birthday cards.  I don't consider that "contacting them," but rather just letting them know they are still a loved one from your perspective.

Is there some sort of court order preventing you from contact, or is this just your child thinking she has the right to control you?  You are allowed to send a Christmas card to anyone you want.

[JustEm]

2 hours ago, scholastica said:

I agree with those that said send a simple Merry Christmas the way the child did. Also, sign it how you would like to referred to. If you and your dh would still like to be called Mom and Dad by your children, that’s not an outrageous ask. You have the right to decide what people call you, just like your child does. Boundaries go both ways. I’m sorry that your family is dealing with this.

mom and dad are not names though. They are just simply nouns that identify a parent's relationship to someone else. So, you really have no right to expect someone else to use those terms as names. And for an adult child who has cut contact with the parents it is an outrageous ask.

With that being said, I'd still sign it Mom and Dad because that is what I'd continue to call myself in relation to my child unless they explicitly asked me not to

[Bambam]

One of mine is very prickly, so I just try to keep conversations/cards/etc on the same level that she does. So, I'd send a Christmas card back, "Love Mom and Dad", or however you would normally send it.  We do FB messenger - I send memes, share memories (from FB posts), etc to try to maintain some sort of contact at some superficial level which is all she seems to want. 

And just to say, I feel completely blindsided. It's hard when your kids turn on you/become different people/accuse you of stuff that you don't remember/didn't do/other siblings back you up/etc. It's hard. May we all find some peace in these situations. 


 

Edited December 15, 2023 by Bambam

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

I would continue to send Christmas and birthday cards.  I don't consider that "contacting them," but rather just letting them know they are still a loved one from your perspective.

Is there some sort of court order preventing you from contact, or is this just your child thinking she has the right to control you?  You are allowed to send a Christmas card to anyone you want.

Just child wanting control.
 

Edited December 15, 2023 by gardenmom5

[scholastica]

This reads a bit like minimizing the child’s experience. As in, “see we were really good parents compared to mine.” That’s definitely true from what you posted here. They only have their own experience, and they have problems with it for whatever reason, but that’s a defensive position. It minimizes the child’s pain. Sometimes when people are struggling, they look to blame others. Eventually, most of us grow up and take responsibility for ourselves, learn how to be better and handle relationships better. None of us is a perfect parent and all we can do is apologize, ask for forgiveness and be better in the relationship today and going forward. Even if we think the complaint is ridiculous, it hurt the child and they deserve an apology. Treat the child as an adult and love them the best you can that they’ll let you right now.

Edited December 15, 2023 by scholastica
Remove quote

[Grace Hopper]

Re the signing of mom and dad vs your first names

 

Mom and Dad could be seen as a term of power dynamic. Still putting this now adult in the place of child. First names are more peer to peer. 
 

I’m not sure how I’d choose to sign it, just pointing out a way in which it might be interpreted. What comes to mind is that FOR THIS MOMENT I’d not force Mom and Dad. Maybe save that for a next communication. Of course you will always be the parents, in the loving sense, but it may not, to them, signal that you recognize their current status as independent adults (who may honestly be wanting to move away from any remembrance of dysfunctional childhood). They’re not doing so in the most mature fashion, of course, but may still need space. 
 

Only you can think on this with enough complete info to make the choice that is right in your specific circumstances. I just wanted to point out a certain pov that may be in play. 

[Frances]

12 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Frances

[gardenmom5]

deleted for privacy

My question was answered and things have strayed off topic.

Edited December 15, 2023 by gardenmom5

[Frances]

11 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Frances

[bolt.]

I'd send one back, with "Thank you for your card. Merry Christmas to you too!"

This clarifies that (a) you did not 'contact them' on your own initiative, but are trying to reciprocate what you are seeing, and ( b ) that you are thankful for even their most perfunctory contact.

You still have a lot of feelings to sort out regarding the incident at the wedding, and your mixed feelings that include a bit of a dark side (like maybe: resentment, minor retribution, and/or desire for some level of control within the relationship, your own childhood as a basis for relevant comparison, etc.). It's probably for the best that you are on 'Christmas card terms' for now, until you are able to process those things and get yourself towards a more healthy perspective.

Having a 'perfunctory card' relationship is not a "both ways" thing. It's just a level of relationship. It means that you are free to reply-in-kind (with perfunctory cards for each occasion) but not welcome to initiate and contact of a more significant nature (including not writing non-perfunctory things in the cards).

Isn't it nice to know that you are forgiven? And that you are wished-well with kind thoughts multiple times per year?

With a no-contact adult child, I don't think that's nothing.

This is not "just a child wanting control" -- this is an *adult* recognizing that they *have* control. That's not the same thing. An adult's control of how and when they choose to be in a relationship an aspect of their rightful agency as a human being. It is right and proper. It belongs to them, no one should, in any way attempt to interfere with it. That's hard for you, because you weren't raised with a sense of proper rights and freedoms belonging to people simply because they are human. And it's 100x harder for you because this person's freedom is being used to hurt and reject you. You need someone to hug you through this and comfort you in your legitimate pain... but you don't need to judge your kid to do that. You can just be hurt. Your pain matters. You matter. It's not about control.

[gardenmom5]

23 minutes ago, scholastica said:

This reads a bit like minimizing the child’s experience. As in, “see we were really good parents compared to mine.” That’s definitely true from what you posted here. They only have their own experience, and they have problems with it for whatever reason, but that’s a defensive position. It minimizes the child’s pain. Sometimes when people are struggling, they look to blame others. Eventually, most of us grow up and take responsibility for ourselves, learn how to be better and handle relationships better. None of us is a perfect parent and all we can do is apologize, ask for forgiveness and be better in the relationship today and going forward. Even if we think the complaint is ridiculous, it hurt the child and they deserve an apology. Treat the child as an adult and love them the best you can that they’ll let you right now.

Things are straying very far from my original question.

I'm very much in the camp of "life is not a competition, everyone deals with  . . . life . . .what that means is different for everyone.  Some get it early, some get it late, some get it their whole lives, some get extremely intense experiences ... but people will have experiences that will stretch them and push them to their limits.  because that's "life".    

they were on the receiving end of bullying, - they didn't know about the issues with the principal, or how that woman handled complaints of bullying etc.  Or that I was one of the parents who complained to her about kids bullying.  (the principal dealt with things by telling parents what they wanted to hear, but doing nothing.)  Or that there was 25% staff turnover every year she was principal. Or that a delegation of teachers went to the brand new superintendent (previous one protected her) demanding she be removed as principal. (union wouldn't allow her to be fired, so she was moved where she had zero power over students) They are unaware of how even today - while schools claim zero tolerance of bullying - it's still more common for admins to turn a blind eye.

[Bambam]

I'm just saying, sometimes the kid hold all sorts of ridiculous things against you.
Example: My dd said I "sucked the all the joy out of her life" because I made her put pans/dishes that came out of the oven onto a trivet vs. the counter top.  I am afraid her sister and I laughed at her. Because this was the evil that I had done? Maybe this is wrong, but I am not apologizing for having her do that. I did say I'm sorry that bothered her, but I'm not apologizing for having that standard in my kitchen.  I think I probably apologized for laughing at her. The laughter was a result of the total outrageousness of her accusation. 

So, I think sometimes kids come up with really ridiculous things that they hold against you.  

[bolt.]

Oh! Since you *are* at a relationship level where perfunctory cards are acceptable -- might I suggest that this is an excellent phase of life for you to revive the old fashioned tradition of thank you cards? You could send one back to them after each recognition of a birthday. That's like an extra, 3-5x per year when you can make a positive contact!

(Plus it would remind them that their cards are meaningful on your end, which might encourage them to remember each of their siblings instead of being forgetful of some of them.)

Edited December 15, 2023 by bolt.

[gardenmom5]

53 minutes ago, Frances said:

Is the child in question on the spectrum? If so, that definitely complicates things and they may never be able to get out of the reality they created and are obsessing over. You may need to consult a trained therapist to help you and your husband deal with everything. But if not, hopefully with time they will develop the maturity to take responsibility for the their life.

yes, one of three formally diagnosed.  And are angry they weren't diagnosed as a child.  (the only one diagnosed as a child is dudeling)  my former ped wouldn't have been any help. He didnt' even think dudeling was on the spectrum.   

[gardenmom5]

2 minutes ago, bolt. said:

Oh! Since you *are* at a relationship level where perfunctory cards are acceptable -- might I suggest that this is an excellent phase of life for you to revive the old fashioned tradition of thank you cards? You could send one back to them after each recognition of a birthday. That's like an extra, 3-5x per year when you can make a positive contact!

(Plus it would remind them that their cards are meaningful on your end, which might encourage them to remember each of their siblings instead of being forgetful of some of them.)

Only cards for us.  Siblings would need to send their own.  (my four adult kids are all over 30)
Dudeling's bd is next month - so we'll see if he gets a card.  Oct bd sibling replied to their card.

I've occasionally come across meme's, articles, etc. I have thought they'd *really* enjoy, and I normally would have shared, but have felt like I can't, so I don't. . . . maybe I should try it . . . . I'll think about it.
 

[bolt.]

8 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

Only cards for us.  Siblings would need to send their own.  (my four adult kids are all over 30)
Dudeling's bd is next month - so we'll see if he gets a card.  Oct bd sibling replied to their card

I've occasionally come across meme's, articles, etc. I have thought they'd *really* enjoy, and I normally would have shared, but have felt like I can't, so I don't. . . . maybe I should try it . . . . I'll think about it.
 

That makes sense.

I wouldn't exceed your 'card' level relationship until you are invited to do so. It's very likely that one of the things you are being assessed for by this kid is your ability to abide within stated limitations on the relationship. Contacting them with memes and articles indicates and inability to respect a stated boundary. Instead show him that you *do* have the ability to respect boundaries that another person states, even when they are painful for you. This will show that your skills are growing and you are becoming more safe.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

12 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

yes, one of three formally diagnosed.  And are angry they weren't diagnosed as a child.  (the only one diagnosed as a child is dudeling)  my former ped wouldn't have been any help. He didnt' even think dudeling was on the spectrum.   

There is part of me that is angry that my parents did not recognize my issues were more than shyness. I’m angry that my mom punished me for things that I recognize are behaviors typical of females on the spectrum.

But I am in my early 40s and can also recognize that there was NO KNOWLEDGE of these things and I would not have been diagnosed in the 1980s and 1990s.  And that my parents fought for a diagnosis for my sister in the early 2000s and would have done the same for me had they had any inkling.

My sisters in their 20s/early 30s do not have the same understanding towards my parents.  It’s an age thing, perhaps. But I still have a bit of anger even tempered with understanding.

[gardenmom5]

27 minutes ago, bolt. said:

I'd send one back, with "Thank you for your card. Merry Christmas to you too!"   This is a good way to word it.  Thank you for the suggestion.

This clarifies that (a) you did not 'contact them' on your own initiative, but are trying to reciprocate what you are seeing, and ( b ) that you are thankful for even their most perfunctory contact.

You still have a lot of feelings to sort out regarding the incident at the wedding, and your mixed feelings that include a bit of a dark side (like maybe: resentment, minor retribution, and/or desire for some level of control within the relationship, your own childhood as a basis for relevant comparison, etc.). It's probably for the best that you are on 'Christmas card terms' for now, until you are able to process those things and get yourself towards a more healthy perspective.

 

The thing about the wedding was more 1.  the only time we've seen them since all this started. (this was a "destination" wedding . . . we spent two nights at the place.)
and 2.  confusion as to why they'd sit behind dh when they had stated they wanted no contact and there were LOTS of empty seats?  it doesn't make sense? wondering if there was an ulterior motive?  dh said hi when they sat down behind him, but received no response.  I sat down next to him,, ignored adult child (as I had previously been instructed), and started to talk to him.  at one point I did slip and say child's name (similar to another person's name).   

I sent them a note asking if they had wanted me to acknowledge them, yadda yadda and was told I did the right thing by ignoring them.  So, who knows . . . . 
we were at breakfast at the same time the first morning - and I ignored them.  I was glad to see they ended up sitting with cousins and was having a good time.

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Grace Hopper said:

Re the signing of mom and dad vs your first names

 

Mom and Dad could be seen as a term of power dynamic. Still putting this now adult in the place of child. First names are more peer to peer. 
 

I would not change the way I signed the Christmas card.  I would sign it the same way I sign all my adult children's Christmas cards.  Most likely, that would be "Love, Mom & Dad."

I think that changing it to first names, if you wouldn't otherwise do that, if sending a message that you're choosing to emotionally distance yourself from this child.  Unless that the message intended, I would not do that.  (And if I did want to disown my kid, I wouldn't bother with a card at all.)

My family always uses mom & dad (or mama or whatever) forever.  Why would that change?  It's a biological and/or legal fact.

[gardenmom5]

8 minutes ago, bolt. said:

That makes sense.

I wouldn't exceed your 'card' level relationship until you are invited to do so. It's very likely that one of the things you are being assessed for by this kid is your ability to abide within stated limitations on the relationship. Contacting them with memes and articles indicates and inability to respect a stated boundary. Instead show him that you *do* have the ability to respect boundaries that another person states, even when they are painful for you. This will show that your skills are growing and you are becoming more safe.

I do feel comfortable enough to ask if I can . . . I'll either get an affirmative response, or nothing.

[gardenmom5]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

I would not change the way I signed the Christmas card.  I would sign it the same way I sign all my adult children's Christmas cards.  Most likely, that would be "Love, Mom & Dad."

I think that changing it to first names, if you wouldn't otherwise do that, if sending a message that you're choosing to emotionally distance yourself from this child.  Unless that the message intended, I would not do that.  (And if I did want to disown my kid, I wouldn't bother with a card at all.)

My family always uses mom & dad (or mama or whatever) forever.  Why would that change?  It's a biological and/or legal fact.

They are the one who has been referring to us by first names, and made clear they do not think of us as "mom & dad".

[SKL]

Just now, gardenmom5 said:

They are the one who has been referring to us by first names, and made clear they do not think of us as "mom & dad".

They don't get to control you IMO.

I should probably bow out of this.

[bolt.]

1 minute ago, gardenmom5 said:

The thing about the wedding was more 1.  the only time we've seen them since all this started. (this was a "destination" wedding . . . we spent two nights at the place.)
and 2.  confusion as to why they'd sit behind dh when they had stated they wanted no contact and there were LOTS of empty seats?  it doesn't make sense? wondering if there was an ulterior motive?  dh said hi when they sat down behind him, but received no response.  I sat down next to him,, ignored adult child (as I had previously been instructed), and started to talk to him.  at one point I did slip and say child's name (similar to another person's name).   

I sent them a note asking if they had wanted me to acknowledge them, yadda yadda and was told I did the right thing by ignoring them.  So, who knows . . . . 
we were at breakfast at the same time the first morning - and I ignored them.  I was glad to see they ended up sitting with cousins and was having a good time.

I can see that your confusion, because the motives for their actions aren't transparent to you, makes you uncomfortable. The thing is that *most* people's motives for their actions aren't transparent to you. We *often* experience confusion as to 'why other people do what they do' -- and usually that feeling of discomfort over feeling confused doesn't last for months and months. Usually we just accept our ignorance and let other people be a mystery to us. Something is blocking you from taking that step. It's worth wondering to yourself what the 'blocking thought' might be.

[bolt.]

3 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

I do feel comfortable enough to ask if I can . . . I'll either get an affirmative response, or nothing.

I'm confused why you would feel "comfortable" contacting this kid to ask them this question -- when you have been specifically asked to refrain from doing that. It's worth wondering which part of you is *actually not uncomfortable* being that pushy. Why not?

[gardenmom5]

Just now, bolt. said:

I can see that your confusion, because the motives for their actions aren't transparent to you, makes you uncomfortable. The thing is that *most* people's motives for their actions aren't transparent to you. We *often* experience confusion as to 'why other people do what they do' -- and usually that feeling of discomfort over feeling confused doesn't last for months and months. Usually we just accept our ignorance and let other people be a mystery to us. Something is blocking you from taking that step. It's worth wondering to yourself what the 'blocking thought' might be.

I'm not dwelling on it - only using it as an example.  it's a 'whatever' incident.
what has me upset - is I am being told by this kid to not contact them, so I don't, BUT - they will contact me, and then end it with "don't contact me".  They're not even following their own rules.

[gardenmom5]

2 minutes ago, bolt. said:

I'm confused why you would feel "comfortable" contacting this kid to ask them this question -- when you have been specifically asked to refrain from doing that. It's worth wondering which part of you is *actually not uncomfortable* being that pushy. Why not?

mostly after the letter exchange in the fall that clarified some things, and when they seemed a bit more open.   but they still ended with a "don't contact me".  I'll think about it. 

[gardenmom5]

21 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

There is part of me that is angry that my parents did not recognize my issues were more than shyness. I’m angry that my mom punished me for things that I recognize are behaviors typical of females on the spectrum.

But I am in my early 40s and can also recognize that there was NO KNOWLEDGE of these things and I would not have been diagnosed in the 1980s and 1990s.  And that my parents fought for a diagnosis for my sister in the early 2000s and would have done the same for me had they had any inkling.

My sisters in their 20s/early 30s do not have the same understanding towards my parents.  It’s an age thing, perhaps. But I still have a bit of anger even tempered with understanding.

I'm also likely on the spectrum - never formally diagnosed.
Yes, they're angry they weren't diagnosed earlier - but also angry the school counselor didn't recognize it.   
They have no actual learning disability (CPAD) - as do I and the other two who have been formally diagnosed.  And it was only with dudeing I even learned CAPD was a thing.  
 

[bolt.]

6 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

I'm not dwelling on it - only using it as an example.  it's a 'whatever' incident.
what has me upset - is I am being told by this kid to not contact them, so I don't, BUT - they will contact me, and then end it with "don't contact me".  They're not even following their own rules.

I don't think you understand.

People are allowed to request that *you* not contact *them*.

That doesn't mean that they have made some sort of "rule" that they can't contact you either. 

They are completely different things. One thing is about the amount and type of contact they are willing to receive from you. The other is about the amount and type of contact they are willing to give to you.

Think of it this way. If someone says, "You can't visit my house with your dog." -- that's a fair hostess thing to request. But, say they too have a dog of their own. That doesn't mean that their own dog has broken their own rules! It just means that they are in charge of *which* dogs are allowed in their house, and which dogs they don't want. They love their own dog. They don't like other people's dogs. No problem. Perfectly sensible.

Your kid *does* like to reach out to you from time to time. They *don't* like it when you initiate contact. -- That is also perfectly sensible and no problem at all. In fact, it's nice that they are being so clear and repetitive with their, "Don't initiate -- I'll be in touch myself in the ways I'm comfortable with" messaging. So there's no confusion.

There's also no excuse. Don't initiate contact (unless it's something dire and urgent, of course).

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Grace Hopper said:

Re the signing of mom and dad vs your first names

 

Mom and Dad could be seen as a term of power dynamic. Still putting this now adult in the place of child. First names are more peer to peer. 
 

I’m not sure how I’d choose to sign it, just pointing out a way in which it might be interpreted. What comes to mind is that FOR THIS MOMENT I’d not force Mom and Dad. Maybe save that for a next communication. Of course you will always be the parents, in the loving sense, but it may not, to them, signal that you recognize their current status as independent adults (who may honestly be wanting to move away from any remembrance of dysfunctional childhood). They’re not doing so in the most mature fashion, of course, but may still need space. 
 

Only you can think on this with enough complete info to make the choice that is right in your specific circumstances. I just wanted to point out a certain pov that may be in play. 

yeah - that's why when I responded to "the letter" I used first names. 

[gardenmom5]

4 minutes ago, bolt. said:

I don't think you understand.

People are allowed to request that *you* not contact *them*.

That doesn't mean that they have made some sort of "rule" that they can't contact you either. 

They are completely different things. One thing is about the amount and type of contact they are willing to receive from you. The other is about the amount and type of contact they are willing to give to you.

Think of it this way. If someone says, "You can't visit my house with your dog." -- that's a fair hostess thing to request. But, say they too have a dog of their own. That doesn't mean that their own dog has broken their own rules! It just means that they are in charge of *which* dogs are allowed in their house, and which dogs they don't want. They love their own dog. They don't like other people's dogs. No problem. Perfectly sensible.

Your kid *does* like to reach out to you from time to time. They *don't* like it when you initiate contact. -- That is also perfectly sensible and no problem at all. In fact, it's nice that they are being so clear and repetitive with their, "Don't initiate -- I'll be in touch myself in the ways I'm comfortable with" messaging. So there's no confusion.

There's also no excuse. Don't initiate contact (unless it's something dire and urgent, of course).

I think you're overthinking this.

If someone says "you can't visit my house with your dog" - they're not saying "you can't visit my house"  - it's only with "the dog'.  They'd be able to come provided the dog was elsewhere.

Generally when someone goes "no contact" - it is NO contact.  It's not "I can contact you whenever I want for whatever reason I want, but you're not allowed to contact me for any reason". 
And by your own argument - I shouldn't respond to the Christmas card at all.

[bolt.]

Just now, gardenmom5 said:

I think you're overthinking this.

If someone says "you can't visit my house with your dog" - they're not saying "you can't visit my house"  - it's only with "the dog'.  They'd be able to come provided the dog was elsewhere.

Generally when someone goes "no contact" - it is NO contact.  It's not "I can contact you whenever I want for whatever reason I want, but you're not allowed to contact me for any reason". 
And by your own argument - I shouldn't respond to the Christmas card at all.

No, the Christmas card didn't say, "Merry Christmas, Please don't contact me." -- That's why it's within bounds to reciprocate it. If the other communications had not ended with "Please don't contact me" you could reciprocate those contacts too (in ways that reflect the same level of contact). That's why it's so nice that this kid is being really clear of what he does or doesn't want. He doesn't want you to reciprocate any of the more intense forms of contact. He doesn't mind if you reciprocate cards with perfunctory wording.

Your kid hasn't gone "no contact". Obviously. He just sent you a card. That's not "no contact". Maybe he has never gone "no contact".

If you were ever actually "no contact" with him, you have been upgraded to "low contact, my initiative only" -- which is a beautiful step in the right direction. If it is new, where is your rejoicing? If it's not new, where is the confusion coming from?

"I can contact you whenever I want for whatever reason I want, but you're not allowed to contact me for any reason" is a great description. You understand the situation well. It's "low contact, my initiative only, perfunctory cards allowed".

But it's still a mystery why you like it *even less* than you imagine you would like genuine "no contact".

I can't really understand why you are actually angered by these signs of openness and progress. As if it were "unfair" that you get to receive kindness but aren't able to reach out and be kind yourself. Are you just still mad that the kid gets to make all the decisions, so all the decisions make you mad, no matter what they are? Is it something else?

Are you really hoping that you never see or hear from this child again, as long as you live? Because that would be a more standardized approach? Are you hurt enough to be done with them? Forever? Not forever? Do you need a break in order to rebuild goodwill and a willingness to continue relating at all to them? Is that why you don't like it when they reach out in your direction in small ways? -- It's okay if you do. Parents do feel that way, sometimes, and for a time, with an adult child.

[gardenmom5]

29 minutes ago, bolt. said:

No, the Christmas card didn't say, "Merry Christmas, Please don't contact me." -- That's why it's within bounds to reciprocate it. If the other communications had not ended with "Please don't contact me" you could reciprocate those contacts too (in ways that reflect the same level of contact). That's why it's so nice that this kid is being really clear of what he does or doesn't want. He doesn't want you to reciprocate any of the more intense forms of contact. He doesn't mind if you reciprocate cards with perfunctory wording.

Your kid hasn't gone "no contact". Obviously. He just sent you a card. That's not "no contact". Maybe he has never gone "no contact".

If you were ever actually "no contact" with him, you have been upgraded to "low contact, my initiative only" -- which is a beautiful step in the right direction. If it is new, where is your rejoicing? If it's not new, where is the confusion coming from?

"I can contact you whenever I want for whatever reason I want, but you're not allowed to contact me for any reason" is a great description. You understand the situation well. It's "low contact, my initiative only, perfunctory cards allowed".

But it's still a mystery why you like it *even less* than you imagine you would like genuine "no contact".

I can't really understand why you are actually angered by these signs of openness and progress. As if it were "unfair" that you get to receive kindness but aren't able to reach out and be kind yourself. Are you just still mad that the kid gets to make all the decisions, so all the decisions make you mad, no matter what they are? Is it something else?

Are you really hoping that you never see or hear from this child again, as long as you live? Because that would be a more standardized approach? Are you hurt enough to be done with them? Forever? Not forever? Do you need a break in order to rebuild goodwill and a willingness to continue relating at all to them? Is that why you don't like it when they reach out in your direction in small ways? -- It's okay if you do. Parents do feel that way, sometimes, and for a time, with an adult child.

And again - this is straying way off from my original question (which was answered with a good suggestion).
I'm not rejoicing because this kid is constantly changing "what they say they want".  What they want today, will be different tomorrow, and was different from yesterday.  I was walking on eggshells with them FOR MONTHS before they severed contact.  

For me, there is no reason to rejoice that things are "thawing" when tomorrow they could well be frozen over again. (maybe something founded, and maybe NOT.)  It's like being on a rollercoaster in the dark - you never know what's coming next.  I've already been through cycles of this with them.
 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

Is there a closed group on here for people with estranged family members? There is more I want to say and talk about because this is heavy on my mind, but not in an open forum.

[bolt.]

15 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

And again - this is straying way off from my original question (which was answered with a good suggestion).
I'm not rejoicing because this kid is constantly changing "what they say they want".  What they want today, will be different tomorrow, and was different from yesterday.  I was walking on eggshells with them FOR MONTHS before they severed contact.  

For me, there is no reason to rejoice that things are "thawing" when tomorrow they could well be frozen over again. (maybe something founded, and maybe NOT.)  It's like being on a rollercoaster in the dark - you never know what's coming next.  I've already been through cycles of this with them.
 

That's a really hard place to be in with an important relationship! I feel for you.

It sounds like low contact is a good place for both you and your kid for now. Try to find peace with it. It's just cards and no other worries for now, so that could be kind of a good place to rest and heal, if you let it.

Edited December 15, 2023 by bolt.

[gardenmom5]

8 hours ago, bolt. said:

That's a really hard place to be in with an important relationship! I feel for you.

It sounds like low contact is a good place for both you and your kid for now. Try to find peace with it. It's just cards and no other worries for now, so that could be kind of a good place to rest and heal, if you let it.

I'm fine to do low-contact.  I just don't know if I'm going to send a card and receive one back that says "don't contact me" . . . . . . 

I've mostly finished wrapping presents, and started on cards. . . . I picked one that I think she will be more approving of . . . . I didn't know it has blue on dark blue stripped envelopes (whose 'brilliant' (not) idea was that? - I didn't know when I bought them).  . . . Blue or black ink need not apply .. . .  I ordered a silver paint/felt fine-tip marker from Michael's.  I'll pick it up tomorrow morning.  (why should I have to search the store?)

[SquirrellyMama]

11 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

just don't know if I'm going to send a card and receive one back that says "don't contact

If you do then you know not to send a card back when you get one from them. 

ETA: I don't mean that to sound flippant. It just seems a safer way to get the answer than actually contacting them.

Edited December 16, 2023 by SquirrellyMama

[fairfarmhand]

13 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

I'm fine to do low-contact.  I just don't know if I'm going to send a card and receive one back that says "don't contact me" . . . . . . 

I've mostly finished wrapping presents, and started on cards. . . . I picked one that I think she will be more approving of . . . . I didn't know it has blue on dark blue stripped envelopes (whose 'brilliant' (not) idea was that? - I didn't know when I bought them).  . . . Blue or black ink need not apply .. . .  I ordered a silver paint/felt fine-tip marker from Michael's.  I'll pick it up tomorrow morning.  (why should I have to search the store?)

If that doesn't work, maybe some plain address labels that can go through the printer?

[gardenmom5]

20 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

If that doesn't work, maybe some plain address labels that can go through the printer?

I thought about that - but they're very small . . . I'm not going to be doing that again . . . I'll pay more attention to size in future.