More on Brave Books

[Heartstrings]

1 minute ago, pinball said:

And it failed.

your link limits the number of articles one can read without registering or signing up.

I fat fingered it and managed to get the part of the country where it happened but I could not get back to read that site.

so I googled. And found out it didn’t pass. Dayton Library in Washington state

Look up Jonesboro, AR.  
 

https://arktimes.com/arkansas-blog/2022/11/09/jonesboro-area-voters-approve-effort-to-defund-public-library

Edited November 30, 2023 by Heartstrings

[pinball]

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

This is similar to anti-abortion laws that aimed to chip away at Roe while insisting that “no one wants over turn Roe” right up until Roe was overturned.

You need bone up on this topic. From the time Roe passed, groups worked to overturn it.

It was no secret. No subterfuge was involved.

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by pinball
Thought I spelled subterfuge wrong but I didn’t

[ktgrok]

32 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

There’s a huge difference between Flowers in the Attic and the book under discussion, though. Including a couple of pictures of people kissing seems so innocuous that it would have gone completely unremarked upon had there not also been LGBTQ content… and, of course, if the private company hadn’t had a financial stake in creating conflict. I really don’t see the problem with Drama unless one wants to prevent any recognition that gay people exist, and, gasp, might even be students in middle school classrooms. 

Right, that was sort of my point. I was pointing out that decades ago there was WAY WAY worse content available, and it didn't trigger addictions nor the downfall of civilization. I was not trying to defend Flowers in the Attic (dear lord what were they thinking marketing that to tweens?) just stating that reading a controversial or "adult themed" book likely is not a real issue. And certainly not with this book. 

30 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

That said, what this woman did was wrong and she is just looking out for her own interest.

But my pet peeve is all the screaming about banning books.  Moving a book to the adult section or YA is not banning.  The parents who believe their child should still be able to read it can get to it and give it to them, but my child cannot stumble across it in the children's section. 

But, when we are talking about a school library, it IS being banned...from that school library. There is no adult section, it's a middle school. There are no kindergarteners who will stumble upon the middle grade books, only middle school kids. Who very arguably are old enough to read a book with a kissing scene or two. 

So in many of the instances people are talking about here and on the news it isn't about moving the book, unless you mean moving the book out of the library entirely. 

[pinball]

42 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

I really don’t see the problem with Drama

You’re fine with a boy acting aggressively towards a girl because he has feelings for her? 

I posted  about it hours ago.

I’ll assume you missed that post of mine

[MEmama]

I shouldn't be astounded at how many people aren't paying attention, but it's become so predictable it's become boring. I'm laughing myself silly over related news today but also terrified of the excuses made over and over. Has everyone lost their damn minds?
 

I will stop now before rightfully getting banned for breaking board rules. 

 

[Danae]

13 minutes ago, pinball said:

You’re fine with a boy acting aggressively towards a girl because he has feelings for her? 

I posted  about it hours ago.

I’ll assume you missed that post of mine

I’m fine with people reading books in which things happen that I’m not fine with.  In fact, I’m actively in favor and think it’s a good thing.  

[pinball]

Just now, Danae said:

I’m fine with people reading books in which things happen that I’m not fine with.  In fact, I’m actively in favor and think it’s a good thing.  

I should have specified for under 7th grade you’re fine with it?

bc I said I think the book Drama would not be appropriate under 7th grade

[Heartstrings]

22 minutes ago, pinball said:

You’re fine with a boy acting aggressively towards a girl because he has feelings for her? 

I posted  about it hours ago.

I’ll assume you missed that post of mine

We do still live in a time where little girls are told that boys are mean to them because they like them, and parents insist that they hit their kids because they love them.  I don’t like these things but they are normal and accepted.  I haven’t read the book, I’m just going off of your description, a boy being aggressive to a girl he likes doesn’t seem that far out of step with current society in general.  Given that, I have to assume the issue is really the gay content.  

Edited November 30, 2023 by Heartstrings

[pinball]

14 minutes ago, MEmama said:

I shouldn't be astounded at how many people aren't paying attention, but it's become so predictable it's become boring. I'm laughing myself silly over related news today but also terrified of the excuses made over and over. Has everyone lost their damn minds?
 

I will stop now before rightfully getting banned for breaking board rules. 

 

Wow, I thought I was on Facebook for a second

[pinball]

6 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

We do still live in a time where little girls are told that boys are mean to them because they like them, and parents insist that they hit their kids because they love them.  I don’t like these things but they are normal and accepted.  I haven’t read the book, I’m just going off of your description, a boy being aggressive to a girl he likes doesn’t seem that far out of step with current society in general.  Given that, I have to assume the issue is really the gay content.  

Assume whatever you want.

I pointed out a theme I thought was not appropriate for grades younger than grade 7.

I think normalizing aggression and conflating it was affection is seriously messed up and doesn’t belong in an elementary school library.

I’m not shocked I’m in the minority here. 

[Danae]

13 minutes ago, pinball said:

I should have specified for under 7th grade you’re fine with it?

bc I said I think the book Drama would not be appropriate under 7th grade

Yes.  I am absolutely fine with elementary students reading a book in which someone does something wrong.  Depicting wrongdoing in fiction is not endorsing it.

[pinball]

1 minute ago, Danae said:

Yes.  I am absolutely fine with elementary students reading a book in which someone does something wrong.  Depicting wrongdoing in fiction is not endorsing it.

Keep dancing around

[Heartstrings]

Just now, pinball said:

hink normalizing aggression and conflating it was affection is seriously messed up.

I agree, but it’s a slow to change thing.  “He’s mean because he liiiiikes you” is not a new thing. Why is this book where we’re drawing the line against it, where it’s otherwise socially acceptable?🤔🤔. 

[Grace Hopper]

How does the story play out?  Does the resolution contain “yes that was bad behavior and I apologize “ from the aggressive boy? Does it include a girl’s resolve to be more careful about men? 
 

Simply having aggressive behavior as a plot element is not enough info to say whether there’s redemption or an important lesson in the telling of the story. 
 

But, dancing back around to the actual case presented for challenging the book - it was about a kiss. I didn’t see any mention of objection due to a boy’s aggression. Did I miss that. 
 

eta how sad I’d be to never have read Anne of Green Gables and the chance to fall in love with Gilbert Blythe. 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Grace Hopper

[Innisfree]

47 minutes ago, pinball said:

You’re fine with a boy acting aggressively towards a girl because he has feelings for her? 

I agree with you that (based purely on what I see in this thread, since I haven’t seen the actual book) that behavior is disturbing.

We ask kids to read lots of books because they provoke thought and questions; this seems like a great thing to talk about with kids as they read Drama. But I didn’t expect to be aware of every bit of disturbing behavior in books my kids  read by the time they were reading on their own. I did expect that by middle school they could reflect on what they read, not assuming that every bit of behavior mentioned was desirable. They’ve never been thoughtless sponges. 

 I don’t think that instance of aggression is why a few people have objected to this book. Even in the comments on Common Sense  Media, parents who had concerns mentioned the gay and bi characters, and the kissing, not the aggression. Certainly the woman who criticized Scholastic Books was complaining about a kiss.

[Frances]

2 hours ago, pinball said:

And it failed.

your link limits the number of articles one can read without registering or signing up.

I fat fingered it and managed to get the part of the country where it happened but I could not get back to read that site.

so I googled. And found out it didn’t pass. Dayton Library in Washington state

This time. I’m sure they will try again in the future.

[Danae]

1 hour ago, pinball said:

Keep dancing around

I don’t know how I could be more clear.  I don’t find the thing you posted disqualifying for younger readers.  

[Soror]

My girls loves Raina's books. I have Drama at home. I'm going to have to do a quick read.....

[pinball]

3 minutes ago, Danae said:

I don’t know how I could be more clear.  I don’t find the thing you posted disqualifying for younger readers.  

😂

*the thing*

[Grace Hopper]

23 minutes ago, Soror said:

My girls loves Raina's books. I have Drama at home. I'm going to have to do a quick read.....

My curiosity is high - just requested it from my library. 

[FreyaO]

My kid read all Raina Tegelmeier's graphic novels, well younger than 7th grade (I read them too). 

They are in the kids' room in our public library. I wouldn't have picked them up for her myself, and I do think they are more appropriate for 11-13 yo, but when she did, it wasn't an issue. 

None of them created a big splash. I can't recall much aggression or anything else that problematic. 

Edit to clarify: the library has a separate teen's space. These books are in the younger kids' space.

Edited December 1, 2023 by FreyaO

[El...]

(Does anyone else run right out and read whatever books hit the news as controversial?) 

[MEmama]

6 minutes ago, El... said:

(Does anyone else run right out and read whatever books hit the news as controversial?) 

Of course! Just like Tipper Gore and her cautionary labels used to tell us which albums were going to the best 😉 

 

 

[El...]

Ok. I read it. It took me about 30 minutes. It was cute, and I enjoy theater people so I liked that set-up. 

I didn't see anyone behave aggressively toward anyone. What am I missing?

There's that sort of dynamic friendly  shoulder-pushing which I'm used to seeing in Manga stuff. It's not supposed to be hitting; it's conveying movement. But I didn't see anyone be abusive or aggressive. People argued, and hugged, and weren't mature about expressing their crushes. 

I did see gay people (you gotta whisper that like the kid from Sixth Sense.) There were several kisses, straight and gay. It wasn't prurient. 

I don't know, guys. It was about teens and relationships.  I don't encourage an obsession with dating in the early teen years, because I want my kids to own their own personalities before they shape themselves around someone else. I don't think I'd hand this to my particular 12 year old. However, I wouldn't swoon if he read it. It's fine to me. It's certainly not p#%&.

 

[El...]

Let me add something,  just for clarity. There was no sex in that graphic novel. There was no mention or image of any body parts related thereto. There was no discussion of sex, sleeping together, or anything like that.

There was only kissing. 

 

[Heartstrings]

I reserved it and read a sample.   It looks cute and fine for the middle school kids I know.  I’l see when the hold comes through but Ill be shocked if it turns into a tot version of 50 shades of Gray.  
Unless it takes a big turn, if a porn addiction came from this book, it was going to come from anything.  

Edited December 1, 2023 by Heartstrings

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, MEmama said:

Of course! Just like Tipper Gore and her cautionary labels used to tell us which albums were going to the best 😉 

 

 

As I was reading this thread I was thinking about how I'd get some random guy or girl outside the record store to go in and buy the over 18 version of whatever album for me. You'd just find a 20 something looking person, hand them money and ask them to buy it for you. No one ever told me know. 

1 hour ago, El... said:

 

I did see gay people (you gotta whisper that like the kid from Sixth Sense.)

 

i've had a stressfull day and that just cracked me up - thank you!

[Hilltopmom]

It’s very popular here with 4/5 graders. In classroom libraries (including mine), the school library, & the public library children’s graphic novel section (not teens).

6th and up think they’re too old for those books.

I personally don’t want 4th graders worried about middle school stuff, but they are. They read books set in middle school while in the last couple years of elementary and by middle school have moved onto books about high schoolers. By high school, kids who like to read are reading adult novels.

 

[*****]

Sheesh! I wonder if these book banners ever go to the beach. A kiss as seen in that cartoon?  I wonder if they ever see the backside of a teen and older (front sides too) at the beach recently? If they want to complain about something, I think they should start there. 

[Frances]

12 minutes ago, ***** said:

Sheesh! I wonder if these book banners ever go to the beach. A kiss as seen in that cartoon?  I wonder if they ever see the backside of a teen and older (front sides too) at the beach recently? If they want to complain about something, I think they should start there. 

But that wouldn’t further their political agenda. These attempts to restrict access to books at public schools and libraries are not, for the most part, arising organically. They are part of a concerted national effort that seeks to ferment anger and outrage in order to divide, conquer, and get votes, not to mention make $ for medie platforms. The more crazy, extreme, and false the better because we now know without a doubt that it works.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Frances

[Frances]

On 11/30/2023 at 1:10 PM, Heartstrings said:

That’s happened to a library near me and  my home town is unfortunately a current target of this as well.  I feel strong that defunding libraries is the ultimate end goal.  

I think it goes way beyond defunding libraries, although some might view that as a positive side effect.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Frances

[KSera]

On 11/30/2023 at 10:28 AM, pinball said:

It is being removed from some libraries because it is deemed to be inappropriate for the children that use the libraries but it remains in libraries where it is appropriate. That’s not banning.

The definition of banning is being cheapened when it is used in such a disingenuous manner as advocated by people in this thread.

 

On 11/30/2023 at 10:42 AM, Grace Hopper said:

Do you feel the titles listed from Brave Books appropriate for school libraries?

I think this is a good question. A complication that gets frequently left out of these book banning discussions is that it's really not possible to have every book in the school libraries and not every book really is appropriate. I think it's ridiculous for this one to be considered inappropriate, personally. I'm not actually a big graphic novel fan, especially when they are displacing written books (I know, I know. I know all the arguments for them, but I have avid readers, so those haven't applied for us personally), but this is very innocuous as books go. I do see a lot of trashy kind of stuff in the YA section at the library and wish there was more of a standard than "whatever gets kids to read" but that's where we seem to be. I am curious if the people who don't want DRAMA in the middle school library think Brave Books are appropriate for elementary school libraries. I'm not expecting we're likely to have anyone answer that though.

A grade level of 7th and up doesn't make much sense when our schools are mostly set up as 6th-8th in middle school. Sixth and up would make sense, though I agree the reading level of this book is very young for middle school.  That's likely pretty typical for a lot of graphic novels though.

On 11/30/2023 at 11:03 AM, 4kidlets4me said:

But that's the problem now isn't it. A certain section of the public thinks they should be in charge of what everyone gets to read. Why should my kid be denied the chance to read the book because you (general you) think it's inappropriate for your kid?

The librarian does have to decide what does and doesn't get included, though. Not everything will be there, and there are some things that don't belong. I think this one is fine (though I agree with a review comment about it stereotyping the whole "boys who like theatre are gay" thing, but it doesn't seem like that part is bothering most people. I read some commentary about racial stereotypes in it as well, but I haven't read it myself, and can't tell if that is accurate). A lot of libraries have been getting rid of a lot of older, classic books that I would like my kids to be able to read and that I think kids from households where the school library is the only book access they have should be able to read as well. I am positive there are many kids who are excellent, avid readers who would enjoy a lot of the books that have been removed to make space for more graphic novels, and they now won't have a chance to. I don't consider that censorship or banning, though.

But again, to be clear, I think it's ridiculous in this specific case. And particularly the whole thing with the woman claiming that picture is responsible for her addiction.

 

[Catwoman]

On 11/30/2023 at 2:03 PM, 4kidlets4me said:

But that's the problem now isn't it. A certain section of the public thinks they should be in charge of what everyone gets to read. Why should my kid be denied the chance to read the book because you (general you) think it's inappropriate for your kid?

But someone has always decided what's inappropriate for your kid to read in libraries.

Librarians don't buy every book that's available. They choose books that they think will be a good fit for their particular library and audience, and in general, I think most of them do a very good job of it. So yeah, someone is already denying your kid the chance to read books because they think certain books are inappropriate for kids in general. If you want your young kid to read books with more adult themes, check them out of the public library yourself, or buy them. 

And I have to tell you that I get a little tired of people acting like all of the kids at all of the ages should have access to all of the books. The fact is that there are countless books that are entirely inappropriate for kids of any age, and deep down inside, we all know that. It has reached the point where both sides of this issue have gotten so extreme, that neither side is willing to give an inch, and it's ridiculous. It seems like it's either "Ban all of the books with kissing!" or "Don't you dare ban anything because that's censorship!" There really needs to be some compromise on both sides here.

I am pretty liberal on this issue, but just because some extremists are trying to have books with kissing or gay characters removed from school libraries, that doesn't really mean that "our" side should be arguing that librarians shouldn't reject *any* books just because you might think it's fine for your kid to read them. Some parents might actually be ok with their young kids reading books with very mature, adult themes, but that doesn't necessarily mean the school library should have it on offer for all of the kids.

I just feel like this entire issue is being blown way out of proportion -- and it's all for political purposes, and not because any of these people really care all that much about sheltering the children (or freeing the children to read whatever they want at any age.) 

Sorry to be so cynical.

[El...]

I don't think the lady was saying that this particular book made her addicted. I think she said that a kissing scene in a book published and marketed at her childhood school (via a Scholastic bookfair) was some sort of a trigger for her, so all books with that type of scene should be withheld. 

The book the district removed, Drama, is more recently published. It wouldn't have been the one she read as a teen. 

I think she's a modern-day puritan with an anti-sex obsession. A number of people are like this now. I think some of them genuinely feel that all teenage attractions are bad (sin) and that ongoing desire must be an addiction. And the idea of gay youth is beyond endurance for them. They're terrified. 

It's awkward, because it's so wildly unhealthy, obviously, but I grew up with folks who genuinely believed a lot of similar things. Not all of them were power-hungry. They became monstrous from a place of genuine belief. They are being manipulated.

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by El...
Fat fingers

[denarii]

1 hour ago, El... said:

I don't think the lady was saying that this particular book made her addicted. I think she said that a kissing scene in a book published and marketed at her childhood school (via a Scholastic bookfair) was some sort of a trigger for her, so all books with that type of scene should be withheld. 

The book the district removed, Drama, is more recently published. It wouldn't have been the one she read as a teen. 

Drama was published in 2012 and most articles I've seen say that Lanah Burkhardt is 20.

Edited December 2, 2023 by denarii

[MercyA]

1 hour ago, El... said:

The book the district removed, Drama, is more recently published. It wouldn't have been the one she read as a teen. 

She's only 20 years old.

[Heartstrings]

2 hours ago, Catwoman said:The fact is that there are countless books that are entirely inappropriate for kids of any age, and deep down inside, we all know that. It has reached the point where both sides of this issue have gotten so extreme, that neither side is willing to give an inch, and it's ridiculous. It seems like it's either "Ban all of the books with kissing!" or "Don't you dare ban anything because that's censorship!" There really needs to be some compromise on both sides here.

I am pretty liberal on this issue, but just because some extremists are trying to have books with kissing or gay characters removed from school libraries, that doesn't really mean that "our" side should be arguing that librarians shouldn't reject *any* books just because you might think it's fine for your kid to read them. Some parents might actually be ok with their young kids reading books with very mature, adult themes, but that doesn't necessarily mean the school library should have it on offer for all of the kids.

I haven’t actually seen the “banners” complain about a specific book written for a certain age group that would be problematic or “too adult” though.  They use words like p0rn and read selections from risqué YA or adult books, but I have yet to see a real book with an intended audience of k-8th that would be blatantly out of bounds.  I’d be interested if anyone had any examples of a book written for k-8th that was wholly inappropriate.  Bonus points if this book was chosen to be put into a library collection, not some self published garbage.  The closet I’ve seen is Beloved which is in no way intended for children.  
 

They say these books are “p0rn” but really the issue is it contain a gay character or talks about racism.  At some point though, sheltering your own child from society has to be a parent issue not a society issue.  If you want to hide the existence of gay people from your kids that’s on you.  I’m busy trying hide the Santa Secret right now but it’s not society’s job to make that easier for me.  
 

I’ve not really seen an argument for “all kids having access to all books” though so maybe I’m just not well versed.  In my hometown the parents are arguing for not removing every book with a gay character or a mention of racism and also that books like Hair Love don’t need to be hidden behind lock and key.  Here I’ve only seen similar arguments so I must be missing a subsection of argumentation somewhere.  

[Frances]

4 hours ago, El... said:

I think she's a modern-day puritan with an anti-sex obsession. A number of people are like this now. I think some of them genuinely feel that all teenage attractions are bad (sin) and that ongoing desire must be an addiction. And the idea of gay youth is beyond endurance for them. They're terrified. 

It's awkward, because it's so wildly unhealthy, obviously, but I grew up with folks who genuinely believed a lot of similar things. Not all of them were power-hungry. They became monstrous from a place of genuine belief. They are being manipulated.

 

Manipulation of the masses is so widespread right now. It’s like a huge chunk of our country never learned anything from the history they studied. You can literally see the constant propaganda, misinformation, and manipulation right before your eyes everyday and yet so many are so oblivious. It’s really sad and very discouraging. I honestly don’t see a way back from it at this point due to the fragmentation of our “new sources” (I put news in quotes because I think what many are using for news is almost straight up propaganda and misinformation with a few facts here and there).

Edited December 2, 2023 by Frances

[El...]

6 hours ago, denarii said:

Drama was published in 2012 and most articles I've seen say that Lanah Burkhardt is 20.

Holy crap. 

So... this book? Really? 

Man, I hope her 45-year-old self isn't incredibly embarrassed. 

[denarii]

6 hours ago, El... said:

Holy crap. 

So... this book? Really? 

Man, I hope her 45-year-old self isn't incredibly embarrassed. 

And she's apparently been free from her addiction for 7 years. Sooo she read a book with a kiss in it at 11 and that resulted in 2 years of porn addiction. 

Not to dismiss someone else's struggles but I'm honestly curious if those two years were an addiction to hardcore pornography or if she read some smutty fanfiction and felt really guilty about it. 

[Grace Hopper]

12 hours ago, denarii said:

And she's apparently been free from her addiction for 7 years. Sooo she read a book with a kiss in it at 11 and that resulted in 2 years of porn addiction. 

Not to dismiss someone else's struggles but I'm honestly curious if those two years were an addiction to hardcore pornography or if she read some smutty fanfiction and felt really guilty about it. 

Age 11-13? That’s typical going through puberty curiosity and hormone surging. 

But seriously, I missed the part where she was only 20yo and had been “recovered” for 7 years. I’m still chalking it up to a marketing ploy. 

[Grace Hopper]

On 11/30/2023 at 6:30 PM, Grace Hopper said:

My curiosity is high - just requested it from my library. 

Ok I just picked it up and read it straight through. And…

On 11/30/2023 at 8:33 PM, El... said:

Ok. I read it. It took me about 30 minutes. It was cute, and I enjoy theater people so I liked that set-up. 

I didn't see anyone behave aggressively toward anyone. What am I missing?

There's that sort of dynamic friendly  shoulder-pushing which I'm used to seeing in Manga stuff. It's not supposed to be hitting; it's conveying movement. But I didn't see anyone be abusive or aggressive. People argued, and hugged, and weren't mature about expressing their crushes. 

I did see gay people (you gotta whisper that like the kid from Sixth Sense.) There were several kisses, straight and gay. It wasn't prurient. 

I don't know, guys. It was about teens and relationships.  I don't encourage an obsession with dating in the early teen years, because I want my kids to own their own personalities before they shape themselves around someone else. I don't think I'd hand this to my particular 12 year old. However, I wouldn't swoon if he read it. It's fine to me. It's certainly not p#%&.

 

I agree with this post 100%. I saw zero aggression, have no idea what that’s about.  100% of the characters could correlate to actual kids/personality types/cis/gay as the kids my own theater kids went to high school with. 
 

And, personally, I wouldn’t have likely given my kids this story in middle school, because they were rather a naive bunch just learning to navigate simple traditional b/g non romantic friendships at that time, but if one of them brought it home I wouldn’t flip out. It would be a great conversation opener. 
 

Anyway, imo the fluster around this book is definitely about the gay, not about kissing that inspires an addiction.  It is a key plot point. But I think Raina just really angered someone by the stabby  statement she gave a character to say: “Gay? You can say it!”

I still think it’s a big PR stunt. Did she ever even share the title of the book that she claims lit her fire at age 11?

 

And I’m still asking, do we think it’s okay for the Brave Book titles to occupy space on school library shelves?

[MercyA]

3 hours ago, Grace Hopper said:

And I’m still asking, do we think it’s okay for the Brave Book titles to occupy space on school library shelves?

I would love to hear others' thoughts on this. I looked up the Collection Development Policy of my local (not school) library, and it said, in part:

The [X] Library is dedicated to serving patrons of every age, ethnic origin, socioeconomic level, education and viewpoint. [It] strives to provide, within its financial ability, access to a collection of materials representing diverse areas of knowledge and interest. The library will make a reasonable effort to obtain materials based on contemporary cultural relevance, artistic and educational merit, longstanding value, patron demand, and community standards."

I would argue that Brave Books do not have artistic or educational merit, as pure political propaganda, nor are they the type of quality books which have longstanding value. However--they probably do have contemporary cultural relevance, would be popular with patrons, and (however I might feel about them) likely meet community standards. 

I don't know. There are plenty of books on the shelves I don't like at all. But these are particularly irksome because they are aimed at little kids.

What says the Hive?

[Heartstrings]

3 hours ago, Grace Hopper said:

 

I still think it’s a big PR stunt. Did she ever even share the title of the book that she claims lit her fire at age 11?

My understanding is that it was this one.  She says this book got her addicted to pornography, which does make me wonder if she knows what that word means.  

[El...]

9 minutes ago, MercyA said:

I would love to hear others' thoughts on this. I looked up the Collection Development Policy of my local (not school) library, and it said, in part:

The [X] Library is dedicated to serving patrons of every age, ethnic origin, socioeconomic level, education and viewpoint. [It] strives to provide, within its financial ability, access to a collection of materials representing diverse areas of knowledge and interest. The library will make a reasonable effort to obtain materials based on contemporary cultural relevance, artistic and educational merit, longstanding value, patron demand, and community standards."

I would argue that Brave Books do not have artistic or educational merit, as pure political propaganda, nor are they the type of quality books which have longstanding value. However--they probably do have contemporary cultural relevance, would be popular with patrons, and (however I might feel about them) likely meet community standards. 

I don't know. There are plenty of books on the shelves I don't like at all. But these are particularly irksome because they are aimed at little kids.

What says the Hive?

I don't care. Why not? Those books aren't likely to incite violence among the preschool set.

Frankly, I don't think the preschool set will really get into them; they seem clunky. 

I say, if the people request them or the librarians think they'll be enjoyed, they should be free to buy them, just like anything else. If no one checks them out after the initial fluff dies down, they'll wash out of the collection just like any other books. If they are beloved, they can stay.

[Happy2BaMom]

On 11/30/2023 at 11:10 AM, pinball said:

Most people’s porn addiction begins with looking at “innocent” pictures and progressing from there. 

It’s not ridiculous at all, IMO

 

And many, many people are able to look at certain pictures and not have it progress from there.

What's ridiculous is expecting everyone else to adapt to a certain few's inability to control themselves. (ETA: the # of people claiming to have developed a problem with pornography after viewing the book in question is an exact set of "1", so clearly the problem is HER.)

Edited December 6, 2023 by Happy2BaMom

[Eos]

13 hours ago, Grace Hopper said:

do we think it’s okay for the Brave Book titles to occupy space on school library shelves?

I'm thinking about this as a member of my library's board.  I've gotten as far as this: locally, our community would likely be uninterested and our library wouldn't spend the money.  Big picture - I see a place for all books in a library, except for ones that promote hate speech and incitement to violence.  But, I think that shelving books and passively allowing access is different that platforming i.e. allowing a proponent to be a speaker at the speaker series.  Our library has a policy that would allow Brave Books to hold one of their story hours as their First Amendment right but putting them on our speaker schedule would involve directing resources to them and that would not make it past our board.  

10 hours ago, MercyA said:

There are plenty of books on the shelves I don't like at all. But these are particularly irksome because they are aimed at little kids.

I think of many many older awful books for small children containing racism, glorifying war, etc. many of which I (Gen X here) grew up with that are now being questioned and weeded out.  They were less politically motivated than these but the subtle harm was harm nonetheless.

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Eos