“Protest behavior”

[Heartstrings]

49 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Dating with kids  is very difficult.   There is naturally less of us to go around once we are parents.  You need a certain level of time commitment but you also want  a man who is stepping up in his role as father.

 

I agree with this, and yet…a man who is really crazy about a gal will find spare 2 seconds to send a quick text.   His child goes to the bathroom, he is awake after bedtime for at least a minute, he goes to work and has a 15 min break or a lunch, or has 2 seconds before he starts the car to go home.   He could text while he pumps gas or stands in line at the grocery store.  He most likely is not actually slammed every single second of his 24 hours, barring some sort of serious special needs or triplet 2 year olds.  If he truly is too busy to send a quick text he shouldn’t be trying to date anyway.    
 

Hey, checking out at Walmart.  Wanted to say a quick hi!   Talk soon. #dadlife.  Takes like 5 seconds.   

[maize]

31 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I agree with this, and yet…a man who is really crazy about a gal will find spare 2 seconds to send a quick text.   His child goes to the bathroom, he is awake after bedtime for at least a minute, he goes to work and has a 15 min break or a lunch, or has 2 seconds before he starts the car to go home.   He could text while he pumps gas or stands in line at the grocery store.  He most likely is not actually slammed every single second of his 24 hours, barring some sort of serious special needs or triplet 2 year olds.  If he truly is too busy to send a quick text he shouldn’t be trying to date anyway.    
 

Hey, checking out at Walmart.  Wanted to say a quick hi!   Talk soon. #dadlife.  Takes like 5 seconds.   

I think that kind of interaction would drive me crazy! I Do Not want lots of little interactions interrupting the flow of what I am doing.

Texts weren't a thing back when I was dating but neither dh nor I are the type to send regular texts. I've been trying to pull together the energy for two days to respond to the last text from a friend who likes to text regularly. I like the friend, I care about the relationship.

But back and forth texts arenotarenotarenot my thing.

[Heartstrings]

1 minute ago, maize said:

I think that kind of interaction would drive me crazy! I Do Not want lots of little interactions interrupting the flow of what I am doing.

Texts weren't a thing back when I was dating but neither dh nor I are the type to send regular texts. I've been trying to pull together the energy for two days to respond to the last text from a friend who likes to text regularly. I like the friend, I care about the relationship.

But back and forth texts arenotarenotarenot my thing.

Texting style is a new entry on the list of things to check compatibility on for sure!   

[Scarlett]

40 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I agree with this, and yet…a man who is really crazy about a gal will find spare 2 seconds to send a quick text.   His child goes to the bathroom, he is awake after bedtime for at least a minute, he goes to work and has a 15 min break or a lunch, or has 2 seconds before he starts the car to go home.   He could text while he pumps gas or stands in line at the grocery store.  He most likely is not actually slammed every single second of his 24 hours, barring some sort of serious special needs or triplet 2 year olds.  If he truly is too busy to send a quick text he shouldn’t be trying to date anyway.    
 

Hey, checking out at Walmart.  Wanted to say a quick hi!   Talk soon. #dadlife.  Takes like 5 seconds.   

Agree. I may not have read closely enough but I felt like @heartlikealion was referring to more than just texting. It seemed like had flaked out and pulled back a few times on plans etc.

[heartlikealion]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Dating with kids  is very difficult.   There is naturally less of us to go around once we are parents.  You need a certain level of time commitment but you also want  a man who is stepping up in his role as father.

Agreeing with others you look for someone who matches your energy and style of interaction. 

 

The men I date are SO focused on being good dads that it is kinda hard to fit myself in tbh. Like the guy that had his kids 50% of the time didn’t really want to talk on his kid weeks. Another one had weekends with his kids and lived closer so we often did weeknight dinners or made plans on a weekend they weren’t with their kids. His texting drastically changed when he switched jobs. He went from working at a hotel and playing on his phone during dead times to not being able to use his phone and often not texting on his breaks or even in the parking lot before he left. He’d look at his phone when he got home.

This last one has full custody of 3 kids and is pretty much always with his kids if he’s not working. I was shocked when he told me he wasn’t too busy, squeezed me in when he could etc but plans were often canceled. Like he has a bike for 3 and biked his youngest around to trick or treat. That’s dedication lol I was supposed to see him that night but by the time they did all their activities and watched a movie he had no energy. That stuff happened a lot. His mom is currently living with him temporarily but he didn’t try to see me late at night often because he wanted to make dinner, tuck his kids in, etc himself. Admirable but tough for dating. 

I flip flop between wanting to date a parent and wanting to find a man that has no kids or no kids that live with him FT etc. because I have no leg to stand on — it’s different to want time with your spouse. You’re like the foundation of the family. Now I’m nothing. 

[heartlikealion]

44 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Agree. I may not have read closely enough but I felt like @heartlikealion was referring to more than just texting. It seemed like had flaked out and pulled back a few times on plans etc.

Yes. Like we were supposed to see each other last Wed. But he was under the weather and often gets called into work so I didn’t know if that would happen. Then that Mon night he said he’d try to see me Tuesday. I said something like are you sure? Because you’re sick, need your rest and have to take a child to the dr. He insisted I’ll be fine by afternoon! I said call me once you’re done the dr stuff/slept. Never heard from him. Reached out Wed night via phone and he answered. Said he wasn’t deliberately ignoring me and I could have reached out. I said I didn’t want to wake you etc and you’re the one that initiated the plans. So anyway… it was annoying we didn’t do anything Tues or Wed. He’s had other days off since but his kids are on break. I said I just wanted an update even if it was to say hey not feeling great let’s cancel. 

After that conversation he did call me a couple times. I think texting is just not as good maybe. But I used to get quicker responses to texts. 

I think he’s one of those people that says yes without realizing how unlikely their yes can be followed through. And I’m not likely to say yes unless I’ve thought out of I can really be there etc. 

[heartlikealion]

I told them how I felt in a text yesterday around noon and it was never acknowledged. Yes things have changed quite a bit. A couple weeks ago I got a text like, “I’m so sorry I didn’t text sooner” after several hours had passed.

We’re not together so things are different. I mean there can other factors at play but I don’t think we’ll see each other before I move unless he makes some plan. I’m not trying anymore. 

Every guy I talk to changes their communication after weeks or months. It’s exhausting. One guy disappeared on me 3 days solid after being exclusive a few months. It’s gonna be really hard to earn my texting trust. 

[regentrude]

Can it be that texting isn't really his thing? I hate texting; it's inconvenient for me to type on the phone, it doesn't lend itself to nuanced conversation. Also, many men aren't demonstrative. It would never occur to DH to text me that he's thinking of me, or to text just because. If he texts, it's because specific information has to be exchanged. 

Back when we were long distance,  my multi page emails received a three sentence response.  Had I held this against him, I would have missed out on an amazing relationship. 

In my experience, humans don't mindread. Tell him what bothers you and how you interpret his intermittent contact. He may not see a problem and may be surprised what subtext you read into the interaction.

[regentrude]

14 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

One guy disappeared on me 3 days solid after being exclusive a few months. It’s gonna be really hard to earn my texting trust. 

3 days? Maybe your expectations are a tad unrealistic. 

[heartlikealion]

10 minutes ago, regentrude said:

3 days? Maybe your expectations are a tad unrealistic. 

We spoke pretty much daily and you can tell when a text is read on the app we used. he had not even clicked on it. He vanished. 

In today’s world, many women will write you off after 1 day… say you’ve ghosted them. I’ve been ghosted and it felt like that. 

[heartlikealion]

15 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Can it be that texting isn't really his thing? I hate texting; it's inconvenient for me to type on the phone, it doesn't lend itself to nuanced conversation. Also, many men aren't demonstrative. It would never occur to DH to text me that he's thinking of me, or to text just because. If he texts, it's because specific information has to be exchanged. 

Back when we were long distance,  my multi page emails received a three sentence response.  Had I held this against him, I would have missed out on an amazing relationship. 

In my experience, humans don't mindread. Tell him what bothers you and how you interpret his intermittent contact. He may not see a problem and may be surprised what subtext you read into the interaction.

He was doing fine texting though phone calls are better if he’s driving. The day after we broke up we saw each other in traffic, waved/smiled and when I pulled over I saw a text from him that it was a pleasant surprise. Soooo he is totally capable of non urgent texting. 

[regentrude]

29 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

In today’s world, many women will write you off after 1 day… say you’ve ghosted them. I’ve been ghosted and it felt like that. 

Wow. Talk about pressure. 

[heartlikealion]

3 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Wow. Talk about pressure. 

Well it may depend if you’ve been talk a few days vs weeks vs months. But daily texts fir months then you drop off 3 days?? Not ok. Unless you are literally unable to update your s/o I think it’s quite rude. 

[WildflowerMom]

Since we’re talking about your dating life, lol, I’m butting in.    Have you considered dating older men?  Not old.  Just older.    If I was suddenly thrown into the dating world, I would not date anyone with minor children, even if I had them myself.  I would intentionally look for an older guy, well established, and frankly, somewhat well-off.   I feel like with you, you’ve already had the guy who puts you very last, is only focused on himself, doesn’t ’fill Your cup’ so to speak.   An older guy will be more focused on you and more mature.   
of course, it’s obviously a preference thing—you might not even be attracted to somewhat older guys, which is understandable.  But I would at least consider it (if you haven’t already).   

[Ginevra]

14 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

I agree with this, and yet…a man who is really crazy about a gal will find spare 2 seconds to send a quick text.   His child goes to the bathroom, he is awake after bedtime for at least a minute, he goes to work and has a 15 min break or a lunch, or has 2 seconds before he starts the car to go home.   He could text while he pumps gas or stands in line at the grocery store.  He most likely is not actually slammed every single second of his 24 hours, barring some sort of serious special needs or triplet 2 year olds.  If he truly is too busy to send a quick text he shouldn’t be trying to date anyway.    
 

Hey, checking out at Walmart.  Wanted to say a quick hi!   Talk soon. #dadlife.  Takes like 5 seconds.   

True but there are surely more complex reasons to miss a few days of texting besides, “you know; dad life.” 
 

FWIW (which is nothing, since I have been married for 29 years), if I were dating, I would not text a guy every day. Maybe once we had been together for two years, but maybe not even then. I would perceive it as a level of neediness I’m not prepared to deal with. Even when I dated my husband, which was pre-cell, pre-internet, we talked a couple time a week and saw each other at weekends. I did not begin seeing him mid-week until it was apparent we were moving towards marriage. 
 

I would struggle with the idea of staying with someone if they felt hurt if a few days passed without a text. This would be true whether they were direct about their “needs” or they started playing head games. There is a very good chance I would say, “I’m a no drama mama” and would move on. 

[Ginevra]

3 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

I told them how I felt in a text yesterday around noon and it was never acknowledged. Yes things have changed quite a bit. A couple weeks ago I got a text like, “I’m so sorry I didn’t text sooner” after several hours had passed.

We’re not together so things are different. I mean there can other factors at play but I don’t think we’ll see each other before I move unless he makes some plan. I’m not trying anymore. 

Every guy I talk to changes their communication after weeks or months. It’s exhausting. One guy disappeared on me 3 days solid after being exclusive a few months. It’s gonna be really hard to earn my texting trust. 

That’s what people do when they have decided they don’t like the intensity level. 
 

What is your “texting trust”? 

[Clarita]

5 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

In today’s world, many women will write you off after 1 day… say you’ve ghosted them. I’ve been ghosted and it felt like that. 

FYI I have dumped guys over needing me to text/communicate with them everyday. Some of them were fine men just not my style and one was borderline abusive.

Especially, if we are maybe dating or just dating and haven't moved into bf/gf or exclusivity. Of course I was in my twenties so maybe the dating world is different later in life ...

[heartlikealion]

3 hours ago, WildflowerMom said:

Since we’re talking about your dating life, lol, I’m butting in.    Have you considered dating older men?  Not old.  Just older.    If I was suddenly thrown into the dating world, I would not date anyone with minor children, even if I had them myself.  I would intentionally look for an older guy, well established, and frankly, somewhat well-off.   I feel like with you, you’ve already had the guy who puts you very last, is only focused on himself, doesn’t ’fill Your cup’ so to speak.   An older guy will be more focused on you and more mature.   
of course, it’s obviously a preference thing—you might not even be attracted to somewhat older guys, which is understandable.  But I would at least consider it (if you haven’t already).   

I’m not usually attracted to them lol and so many guys seem to have physical issues. I’m looking for someone into fitness and not strictly a homebody. 

[WildflowerMom]

5 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

I’m not usually attracted to them lol and so many guys seem to have physical issues. I’m looking for someone into fitness and not strictly a homebody. 

Totally understand!    

[heartlikealion]

Well we spoke today (via text) but I will call him later when I have more time/privacy. I think we cleared the air somewhat. He said he was backing off because he knew I was with my kids and figured I’d reach out when I was free (I didn’t attempt to meet up or anything). Yeah I dunno if that’s totally true but the texts were positive.

For some context - we are old friends. We hung out when he was a teen and I was in my early 20s. He’s not a random guy I met on tinder last month. The first time we reconnected in person he called out my name in Walmart (we had exchanged a couple texts prior to that but had no communication for years) and I met 2 of his kids and we chatted a bit. We hung out all night a couple times before he asked me to be his gf. I’ve met the kids a couple times informally. I never met the kids of anyone else. He came on super enthusiastic about us even knowing I was likely moving to a job out of state. He is an optimist so I’m sure didn’t mean to string me along about us working long distance. 
 

I try to somewhat match the texting energy — we were both texting/calling more before. But in general I lose hope/interest if a guy doesn’t keep communication. Even if that communication is a good morning or good night text. Or a funny meme. Just something. 

[heartlikealion]

The comment section lol 

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/GsL6kYYCaEJpYkwA/?mibextid=roAVj8

[KungFuPanda]

On 11/21/2023 at 1:38 PM, heartlikealion said:

If you have read Attached, this topic comes up. It’s one I’m grappling with these days. 

My understanding is that instead of being direct, you go the passive-aggressive route. (That would be protest behavior but they want us to avoid it)

It’s really hard because I think we look more vulnerable being direct. “Hey, it upset me you didn’t text the last few days” vs I just won’t text this person for a few days. 

How do you feel about the advice to avoid protest behavior? Are you actively practicing ways to avoid it? 

Do you think the notion is kinda crappy because some people maybe “need a taste of their medicine”? 

what are your thoughts? 
 

Sometimes I worry that being open just makes me look weak. Ugh 

I think the expectation that an ex text you daily is a bit much. It’s time to back all the way up to the friend zone. Get a date on the calendar for when you’re going to hang out, text the day before for confirmation, and work on distancing yourself emotionally from this person. It’s already not working out as a relationship. You getting stressed out isn’t going to change his personality. It’s better to focus your energy on not being bothered by this and not holding out hope that he’ll come around romantically.  He’s probably bopping through life giving zero thought to how often he texts someone. 

[heartlikealion]

2 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

I think the expectation that an ex text you daily is a bit much. It’s time to back all the way up to the friend zone. Get a date on the calendar for when you’re going to hang out, text the day before for confirmation, and work on distancing yourself emotionally from this person. It’s already not working out as a relationship. You getting stressed out isn’t going to change his personality. It’s better to focus your energy on not being bothered by this and not holding out hope that he’ll come around romantically.  He’s probably bopping through life giving zero thought to how often he texts someone. 

It is. I just got a lot of mixed signals! He called me 2 days in a row just to chat. Then didn’t return a text for a long (compared to our norm) time. Kept saying he wanted to see me, said if he didn’t have work he’d help me move even though I said I don’t want to disrupt your kids’ Thanksgiving break — to which he insisted they would see him plenty and it was ok. For me lots of confusing messages. 😵‍💫 I need to pin him down for a day/time to meet but his work can always call him in. Just today he said he did want to see me. We probably just need to talk in person lol 

[regentrude]

19 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

It is. I just got a lot of mixed signals! He called me 2 days in a row just to chat. Then didn’t return a text for a long (compared to our norm) time. Kept saying he wanted to see me, said if he didn’t have work he’d help me move even though I said I don’t want to disrupt your kids’ Thanksgiving break — to which he insisted they would see him plenty and it was ok. For me lots of confusing messages. 😵‍💫 I need to pin him down for a day/time to meet but his work can always call him in. Just today he said he did want to see me. We probably just need to talk in person lol 

What if you didn't look for "signals" and "messages" but just accepted that he actually means what he says? That he wants to see you, but that he also leads a busy life with a job and kids? 

What if you didn't try to read subtext into the interactions but just took them at face value?

[bolt.]

1 hour ago, heartlikealion said:

It is. I just got a lot of mixed signals! He called me 2 days in a row just to chat. Then didn’t return a text for a long (compared to our norm) time. Kept saying he wanted to see me, said if he didn’t have work he’d help me move even though I said I don’t want to disrupt your kids’ Thanksgiving break — to which he insisted they would see him plenty and it was ok. For me lots of confusing messages. 😵‍💫 I need to pin him down for a day/time to meet but his work can always call him in. Just today he said he did want to see me. We probably just need to talk in person lol 

Has he given you reason to believe he's not telling you the plain ordinary truth in his statements? Does he have an expectation that you will make guesses about what he really means?

To me, this seems like a normal guy who has more time some days than other days, and wants to see his girlfriend whenever it works out to do that. It sounds like he forecasts possible dates/times (so you and he can make plans) but keeps things a little tentative (because his life requires flexibility) and confirms the plans closer to the actual time.

If he 'runs hot and cold' for you, I affirm you in trusting your own gut. Of all of us, you are the only person who actually knows this guy. You're the expert here. But from data alone, I don't really see it, myself.

[heartlikealion]

54 minutes ago, regentrude said:

What if you didn't look for "signals" and "messages" but just accepted that he actually means what he says? That he wants to see you, but that he also leads a busy life with a job and kids? 

What if you didn't try to read subtext into the interactions but just took them at face value?

Because I had it drilled into me that actions speak louder than words and the action of less communication or not offering a day makes everything else sound like lip service. 

I am going to try to believe them as it’s probably just a hectic time and no harm meant. My anxiety is the worst sometimes. 

[marbel]

So I don't know if this is true or not, but just throwing it out here. I don't think you are really ready to embark on a new relationship. The anxiety, the second-guessing, the search for subtext... yeah, been there, done that, and it's not fun. 

You were in a really crappy relationship. I know it's been a while and you may be lonely for romantic companionship. Again, I've been there myself, and it's not a good place to be. But that doesn't mean you are emotionally ready to engage. 

There is no need to hurry into a new relationship. You are still not settled with work or (if I remember correctly) even a good place to live yet. Why try to rush this?

Others will likely disagree, and you probably will too. And that's all fine of course; it's your life, not mine, I get that. But, man, I feel like deja vu all over again when I read some of your posts (substituting email and phone calls for texts) and see the stress this appears to be causing you. 💗

 

[Rosie_0801]

44 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

Because I had it drilled into me that actions speak louder than words and the action of less communication or not offering a day makes everything else sound like lip service. 

I am going to try to believe them as it’s probably just a hectic time and no harm meant. My anxiety is the worst sometimes. 

But behind actions are motivations. Ask the neurodiverse about that!

If I don't make eye contact, is it:
a) because I'm dismissing you as a person unworthy of my attention? 
b) because I'm in the habit of paying close attention and I know if I make eye contact I'll be gaining more information about you than you are about me and that's unbalanced and a bit invasive?

If I am paying no attention to your distress, is it:
a) because I have no empathy?
b) I have too much empathy, have overloaded and am now too stuck to function properly?

Are you going to know, when both look the same from the outside? No, it's going to depend on whether I'm someone you give the benefit of the doubt to, or whether I'm someone you assume the worst of. 

[heartlikealion]

2 hours ago, marbel said:

So I don't know if this is true or not, but just throwing it out here. I don't think you are really ready to embark on a new relationship. The anxiety, the second-guessing, the search for subtext... yeah, been there, done that, and it's not fun. 

You were in a really crappy relationship. I know it's been a while and you may be lonely for romantic companionship. Again, I've been there myself, and it's not a good place to be. But that doesn't mean you are emotionally ready to engage. 

There is no need to hurry into a new relationship. You are still not settled with work or (if I remember correctly) even a good place to live yet. Why try to rush this?

Others will likely disagree, and you probably will too. And that's all fine of course; it's your life, not mine, I get that. But, man, I feel like deja vu all over again when I read some of your posts (substituting email and phone calls for texts) and see the stress this appears to be causing you. 💗

 

I appreciate your input. I was hesitant to date as I knew I’d probably be moving. He said we could make it work. I thought how on earth once I started having more car problems, his main car didn’t get fixed (he thought it needed one thing but that wasn’t the answer) and other vehicle isn’t in the best shape, and other curveballs. So I said should we break up and he went with it but neither of us were gung ho about it. So there are still feelings but messy circumstances. 

My future landlord has been editing the lease but soon I’ll sign and move. I was going to start taking stuff this weekend but not sure I’ll bother and I can’t get water on til Monday and only if I get to the water department before work. There are a lot of unknowns now like will I meet dd halfway on my visits or drive all the way to her. If I drive all the way to her I’d do my visit at my dad’s - a few min away from xh’s home and my recent ex. Pros and cons of course. 

But right now I know it’s gonna take time to figure out my comings & goings, final budget, etc. Realistically there’s no rush to date. But maybe we can find a happy medium of staying in touch. 

I don’t know if it’s because I’m an HSP, hopeless romantic or what but I seem to get crushed easily. 

[heartlikealion]

1 hour ago, Rosie_0801 said:

But behind actions are motivations. Ask the neurodiverse about that!

If I don't make eye contact, is it:
a) because I'm dismissing you as a person unworthy of my attention? 
b) because I'm in the habit of paying close attention and I know if I make eye contact I'll be gaining more information about you than you are about me and that's unbalanced and a bit invasive?

If I am paying no attention to your distress, is it:
a) because I have no empathy?
b) I have too much empathy, have overloaded and am now too stuck to function properly?

Are you going to know, when both look the same from the outside? No, it's going to depend on whether I'm someone you give the benefit of the doubt to, or whether I'm someone you assume the worst of. 

True

[heartlikealion]

He made tentative plans to see me Friday night. But he delivers mail and you never know when the route will end. As it was nearing dinner time I called to touch base and he was still working. It wasn’t gonna be a good night to see me. I told him I know he’s swamped and I guess I won’t see him before I move. 

With the holidays I’m sure his job will become even more busy. When we were dating he’d said he would invite me into his home but it was bad timing because his mom is temp living there in the living room. She was gonna move out at the end of Nov but now it’s looking like end of Dec. (for financial reasons). 

Our timing and circumstances are messy. 

If we ever hang out again I will just assume it wouldn’t be practical til Jan. And maybe not even then. 

[Kanin]

I just bought this book. It seems great! https://www.amazon.com/Securely-Attached-Transform-Attachment-Relationships/dp/1632174898

[heartlikealion]

26 minutes ago, Kanin said:

I just bought this book. It seems great! https://www.amazon.com/Securely-Attached-Transform-Attachment-Relationships/dp/1632174898

Thanks. 
I have heard that you can do all the reading/research but you have to be able to practice it so staying single isn’t the answer. I’ll have to be able to work on my attachment style in a relationship. Not that I am trying to dive into one now. 

[Rosie_0801]

31 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

I have heard that you can do all the reading/research but you have to be able to practice it so staying single isn’t the answer. I’ll have to be able to work on my attachment style in a relationship. Not that I am trying to dive into one now. 

I would say you have to be in a relationship to perfect these skills, but I know from experience there is a whole lot you can do without.

I am sure I have trust issues lurking somewhere, but they're not lurking anywhere near the surface, because most trust breaking choices that people can make are dust motes compared to what I've already survived. Given time, I expect you'll find the same.

[heartlikealion]

15 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

I would say you have to be in a relationship to perfect these skills, but I know from experience there is a whole lot you can do without.

I am sure I have trust issues lurking somewhere, but they're not lurking anywhere near the surface, because most trust breaking choices that people can make are dust motes compared to what I've already survived. Given time, I expect you'll find the same.

I don’t even know if trust is the word I’d choose for my hang ups though it probably applies. I know I used the word trust upthread. I need more reassurance in the beginning and need actions to match words better. It’s like cognitive dissonance which is hard to ignore. 

[Rosie_0801]

4 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

I don’t even know if trust is the word I’d choose for my hang ups though it probably applies. I know I used the word trust upthread. I need more reassurance in the beginning and need actions to match words better. It’s like cognitive dissonance which is hard to ignore. 

Needing reassurance is about anxiety and that's about trust. You can't go through this stuff without acquiring trust related hang ups! It's horrendous.

Transitions are hard. It makes sense for people who have been taught to give all or receive nothing, or both, to struggle with the natural ambiguity of early relationships. It's natural to want the security of more established relationships, but it is important to learn to pitch your "f-yeah's" at the right level. Everyone wants a roof over their head, but you can't have that with someone you haven't finished drawing up floor plans with, let alone paid to have the slab poured. We can behave as though the roof is the next step, but it will fall down because the walls haven't been agreed on, let alone built yet.

Being a decent human isn't enough to entitle us to a good quality, romantic relationship. Reality doesn't have decent human concepts of justice and reassurance, especially in the beginning, isn't worth much. It is too early for it to mean anything other than "Yep, I'm still looking at the floor plans." 

Anyone who promises a roof at this stage is either a predator or not currently robust enough for relationship building.

[heartlikealion]

Ok

[heartlikealion]

@Kanin
I downloaded the book from cloudLibrary. So far it’s just a giant workbook. 

How much of the book is that way? 

I really don’t know how to answer a lot of questions about my childhood etc. I don’t remember. 

[Kanin]

1 hour ago, heartlikealion said:

@Kanin
I downloaded the book from cloudLibrary. So far it’s just a giant workbook. 

How much of the book is that way? 

I really don’t know how to answer a lot of questions about my childhood etc. I don’t remember. 

The whole thing is like that. I didn't realize it would be. 

I also have trouble remembering a lot of things from my childhood. I'm wondering if thinking about it will bring up some memories?

[heartlikealion]

The author makes it sound so easy to find a therapist that deals with attachment (she doesn’t like the word styles). My most recent therapist recommended the Attached book but I don’t know if they really delve into helping patients on that matter. 

[Murphy101]

On 11/23/2023 at 1:59 PM, Rosie_0801 said:

But behind actions are motivations. Ask the neurodiverse about that!

If I don't make eye contact, is it:
a) because I'm dismissing you as a person unworthy of my attention? 
b) because I'm in the habit of paying close attention and I know if I make eye contact I'll be gaining more information about you than you are about me and that's unbalanced and a bit invasive?

If I am paying no attention to your distress, is it:
a) because I have no empathy?
b) I have too much empathy, have overloaded and am now too stuck to function properly?

Are you going to know, when both look the same from the outside? No, it's going to depend on whether I'm someone you give the benefit of the doubt to, or whether I'm someone you assume the worst of. 

Or it’s going to depend on not expecting anyone to be psychic and just asking, “I’m feeling X bc I notice this behavior in you and do not know how to interpret it. Are we okay?”

Most of the people I’ve loved in my life have never loved me back, regardless of what they might have said. But whatever they were thinking, it shouldn’t have been bc they didn’t know what I was thinking or feeling. Maybe they say I’m crazy. Maybe they defer, deflect, deny and that always end up hurting the relationship.  Maybe they never speak to me again. I can’t control any of that. But I can be clear as possible in my honesty with them that I love them and about what I am thinking and feeling is hurting our connection or just that I’m worried for them.

We can’t assume we are interpreting anything accurately. Or that they are or are not doing something based on why we would or would not do something.

I will say I have had a life long stance that where people put their money and their time shows where their heart and mind are devoted. If it doesn’t - they are probably extremely unhappy or in denial about what is really taking up space in their mind and heart.

People make time for the things and the people they care about and are interested in.  If that means a 3am phone call or showing up filthy straight after a very long day at work bc it’s either do that or miss the chance to see their face entirely that day - then that’s what they do.  Be it lover, sister, friend or kids.

 

[Clarita]

1 minute ago, Murphy101 said:

Or it’s going to depend on not expecting anyone to be psychic and just asking, “I’m feeling X bc I notice this behavior in you and do not know how to interpret it. Are we okay?”

DH and I dealt a bit with my attachment/abandonment issues before and in the beginning of our marriage. There is a lot about telling him how I feel when he did certain things and telling him what I want/need from him. I do have to be open to him saying no to my requests, because some of them are unreasonable. From there we work out a reasonable plan. This looks like him giving me a deadline of when he will contact me next, that he knows he does have to follow through on that and he has to be OK with the possibility that I'm an emotional mess in the meantime (while I'm giving him space).

Yes I know I have no problem with DH not calling me all the time, but mine more looked if he wasn't where he said he'd be, home by when I expect him to be, or if we are in a space and he isn't next to me. 

[Murphy101]

2 hours ago, Clarita said:

DH and I dealt a bit with my attachment/abandonment issues before and in the beginning of our marriage. There is a lot about telling him how I feel when he did certain things and telling him what I want/need from him. I do have to be open to him saying no to my requests, because some of them are unreasonable. From there we work out a reasonable plan. This looks like him giving me a deadline of when he will contact me next, that he knows he does have to follow through on that and he has to be OK with the possibility that I'm an emotional mess in the meantime (while I'm giving him space).

Yes I know I have no problem with DH not calling me all the time, but mine more looked if he wasn't where he said he'd be, home by when I expect him to be, or if we are in a space and he isn't next to me. 

Indeed. This is true for all relationships though. I cannot stress enough how much relationships are hurt by the simple act (or non-act) of presuming we know anything about how another person thinks or feels. 

“if they loved me or cared they’d…”

”because they know that would hurt me they’d never….”

it’s all bs because the starting premise is wrong. We really have no idea what thought processes or emotions someone has unless they tell us. And half the time maybe not even then. Because communication is hella hard for humans. And that’s the humans honestly trying to be good. That’s not even getting into that some people are just turds being turdy.

This is why my default has become open dialog. Maybe I’m a needy pita. But you know what they shouldn’t be able to say? They can’t say I never told them what I needed. I did my part as best I could. Whatever they do or don’t do - they’ll do it knowing full well where I’m at. 

[TexasProud]

Yeah, I hardly ever text.  What you would want would make me feel claustrophobic.  But then, I don't truly need people that much. 

[heartlikealion]

I’m a way nothing in this thread makes me feel better 🤣

You ask if we’re ok and they might lie 

you notice a pattern change and address it. Now you feel Iike you’ve made a mountain out of a molehill but… maybe you were right. Even if they dismiss it. 

I had a guy ghost once and stop reading the Facebook messenger messages. I mentioned this via cell phone number and he said it was nothing, we had just swapped platforms. That was BS lol. He either stopped clicking on the Facebook messages (you can sorta read them as pop ups if you have notifications on) or read them and marked them unread. Within about 48 hrs I never heard from him again. He was just warming up to ghosting. 

I have trust issues partly because people are friggin liars.

Now some may tell the truth but I think it’s often a half truth. Other times it may be full truth. 

I repeatedly hear that a man will chase if he wants you. When I start seeing a decline in communication I think oh he’s done… doesn’t want to court me or doesn’t want to put real effort into it. That could be wrong! It’s just feel I feel. 

Edited November 26, 2023 by heartlikealion

[Heartstrings]

10 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

I repeatedly hear that a man will chase if he wants you. When I start seeing a decline in communication I think oh he’s done… doesn’t want to court me or doesn’t want to put real effort into it. That could be wrong! It’s just feel I feel. 

There's really nothing to do about that though.  When it comes to the right one, he won't drop off in communication, or if it happens he'll come back quickly.  The only thing you can really do is wait for the right one and he'll prove himself day after day by showing up.  There is no shortcut to that.   

It does seem like it might be time to stop pursuing this particular guy.   I thought you guys had agreed to break up or cool things down?  You were calling him an ex a while back.  Did that change?  

[maize]

In many relationships one person does more chasing than the other, but in my experience it's as likely to be the woman as the man. 

[regentrude]

21 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

I repeatedly hear that a man will chase if he wants you. 

Chasing sounds like a very unhealthy dynamic to me. Not something I'd aspire to experience.
 

[heartlikealion]

3 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

There's really nothing to do about that though.  When it comes to the right one, he won't drop off in communication, or if it happens he'll come back quickly.  The only thing you can really do is wait for the right one and he'll prove himself day after day by showing up.  There is no shortcut to that.   

It does seem like it might be time to stop pursuing this particular guy.   I thought you guys had agreed to break up or cool things down?  You were calling him an ex a while back.  Did that change?  

We spoke on the phone a couple days ago. I’m not actively reaching out to him. He ended the call with talk to you soon. I probably pushed him away with my anxiety and insecurities. I was just sad he didn’t make it happen to see me before I left town. My brain flopped between you’re not entitled to his time, he’s busy, back off” and “if he wanted to, he would.” 

When we broke up I was flexible about going cold turkey but he insisted he still wanted to spend time together before I moved. And those plans typically weren’t in stone/got canceled. 

[heartlikealion]

18 minutes ago, maize said:

In many relationships one person does more chasing than the other, but in my experience it's as likely to be the woman as the man. 

 

11 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Chasing sounds like a very unhealthy dynamic to me. Not something I'd aspire to experience.
 

So I listen to this guy Matthew Hussey. And a woman Margarita Nazarenko. 

They very much imply a guy will move mountains for the right woman. So by chase I mean put forth consistent effort not like just the first week or 2. I notice a lot of guys just drop off. Everyone is on their best behavior at first, too!