An odd encounter I’m working through

[saraha]

Ds’s karate class is taught at the police station by our local Barney Fife. Tonight I approached him and asked about a women’s self defense class. He spent the next 20 minutes telling me how dumb those classes are and how they are just a money grab. I threw out the idea that while a woman wouldn’t learn a large amount of tactics, getting a few tips and practicing actually hitting someone would be a big help to me personally and maybe more women. He then shot that down too and was like women are pretty much screwed and our only hope is situational awareness. I just stood there and stared at him and then said thanks and walked away.

A few thoughts I have

1. How dumb are you to assume I have never taught even the smallest amount of situational awareness to my daughters? Things like if class gets out at night, make sure you park under the parking lot light, do t go anywhere alone, always let someone know if you go out on a date and where you are etc etc etc 

2. So I guess he just expects us all to be victims?

3. My dh, father of four girls, is still caught off guard when he hears me warn the girls about something he’s never thought might be a dangerous situation. Like he never thought of it and is surprised I did. He still, with three girls in college, doesn’t really grasp what women have to go through. The systemic male priveledge that he doesn’t even really understand he has.

I think by homeschooling for so many years and most of the time until I got my job, my bubble consisted of about 15 total people and the periphery filled with women, I have been out of the reach of a lot of the male priveledge/cluelessness. I told dh tonight, dealing with men like my coworker or our town cop is why women who run companies seem like b$&c3s to men. Men made them that way. He was smart enough to just say, I guess I can see that.

Not sure where I’m going with this, especially since I know how lucky I have been to not really have too many men in my life who treat me any certain way. I’m sorry for all of you out there who just have to deal with crap. And sorry for our daughters who will too. 😔

[saraha]

Wow, this seems appropriate as I see two more threads on misogyny! What a weird coincidence 

[El...]

What a pop-off answer that was. I'm not delighted with that guy. Because a teacher often becomes a role model, I might be looking for a new class for my son. 

He may have a point. While I personally know someone who went sort of banana-in-a-blender and successfully deterred an attacker, I have seen a national self-defense courses that did not impress me. My old sensei teaches a really good one, if you're anywhere near northern Florida. 

Maybe he's only seen bad ones. But I still don't like him dismissing you.

[Rosie_0801]

I reckon he's seen enough to have come by jadedness honestly.

 

I watched a TED talk ages ago, might have been recommended on here, by a black belted woman who was assaulted in the street and how her training didn't help at all because her brain decided to freeze instead.

[fraidycat]

2 minutes ago, saraha said:

Wow, this seems appropriate as I see two more threads on misogyny! What a weird coincidence 

Seems to be the topic du jour. I haven't had a chance to read much of the other ones yet - just quick skims, but I can sympathize with amount of privilege my cis, het, white, DH has and his absolute cluelessness about it.

[saraha]

Just now, fraidycat said:

Seems to be the topic du jour. I haven't had a chance to read much of the other ones yet - just quick skims, but I can sympathize with amount of privilege my cis, het, white, DH has and his absolute cluelessness about it.

I hadn’t even noticed the others one yet. I came here to post and then saw after it sent me back to the chat board that there were two more threads.

I think dh doesnt really understand when I tell him something but he’s smart enough to agree with me in the moment and process it in his own time rather than pop off.

[saraha]

4 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

I reckon he's seen enough to have come by jadedness honestly.

I guess, but a rant about the classes and  just saying I need to do a better job of teaching situational awareness in an uppity tone seems like maybe not the right way to talk to someone who just asked a question.

I do know that a college aged girl in our wider circle was attacked in a parking lot in broad daylight and using techniques she learned in a self defense class got the guy to back off her while she screamed bloody murder til people came running and he ran away

Edited September 28, 2023 by saraha

[Rosie_0801]

1 minute ago, saraha said:

I guess, but a rant about the classes and  just saying I need to do a better job of teaching situational awareness in an uppity tone seems like maybe not the right way to talk to someone who just asked a question.

Poor customer service, for sure. 

Maybe he sees it as magical thinking and it pains him. I don't know. Could be he's just a grumpy sod and not worth talking to.

[saraha]

Just now, Rosie_0801 said:

Poor customer service, for sure. 

Maybe he sees it as magical thinking and it pains him. I don't know. Could be he's just a grumpy sod and not worth talking to.

Yeah, I guess that could be it too.

[SKL]

Go online and look for a self-defense class for women.

The class my kids and I attended a few years ago was taught by male cops, who thought the class was valuable.

Yes, situational awareness is the most important thing really, for males and females.  Staying out of danger in the first place is probably 99+% of staying alive.  But knowing where to poke / punch / kick if someone does attack is worth something.

We took a one-day class several years ago, and I really don't remember anything about the physical techniques.  I've been saying my kids and I need to take a refresher course before they head off to college.

We all have years of taekwondo, but when sparring, everyone's respectful and careful not to hurt each other.  Our TKD class doesn't really prepare us for a real alley attack, much.

[Harriet Vane]

I took martial arts classes for years.

On the one hand, it's completely true that the physical advantage men have over women makes it very, very difficult to effectively defend oneself, even with training. It's also true that most of us will go to pieces in some way during an actual attack and most of that fancy training will fly right out the door. My time in martial arts really showed me that it takes lots and lots of hours of training and ongoing practice to be able to use those skills effectively.

And yet...

It's also completely true that practicing reacting and practicing being brave in confronting a situation makes you more likely to respond appropriately if attacked. It's true in sports and it's true in dangerous situations. You are more likely to scream, to hit, to block if you've practiced. If we have honed our reflexes to react, especially to react instinctively and without thought, we are more likely to do something helpful when threatened. So yes, self-defense classes really can help.

(And honestly, playing an intense sport like basketball can help develop those reactions, too.)

 

As for guys who don't get it, I'm right there with ya. I have had the same conversation with my much-beloved dh and my awesome son more than one time. They don't get it, though they do try.

(And as an unrelated aside--that should give us all pause to consider how hard it is to understand that which we have not personally lived. And as such, we should listen when people of color and others who have been marginalized tell us just how hard their day-to-day experiences are. It has nothing to do with you personally, Saraha, or this thread, but just taking the opportunity to point this out in general.)

 

[mommyoffive]

7 minutes ago, Harriet Vane said:

I took martial arts classes for years.

On the one hand, it's completely true that the physical advantage men have over women makes it very, very difficult to effectively defend oneself, even with training. It's also true that most of us will go to pieces in some way during an actual attack and most of that fancy training will fly right out the door. My time in martial arts really showed me that it takes lots and lots of hours of training and ongoing practice to be able to use those skills effectively.

And yet...

It's also completely true that practicing reacting and practicing being brave in confronting a situation makes you more likely to respond appropriately if attacked. It's true in sports and it's true in dangerous situations. You are more likely to scream, to hit, to block if you've practiced. If we have honed our reflexes to react, especially to react instinctively and without thought, we are more likely to do something helpful when threatened. So yes, self-defense classes really can help.

(And honestly, playing an intense sport like basketball can help develop those reactions, too.)

 

As for guys who don't get it, I'm right there with ya. I have had the same conversation with my much-beloved dh and my awesome son more than one time. They don't get it, though they do try.

(And as an unrelated aside--that should give us all pause to consider how hard it is to understand that which we have not personally lived. And as such, we should listen when people of color and others who have been marginalized tell us just how hard their day-to-day experiences are. It has nothing to do with you personally, Saraha, or this thread, but just taking the opportunity to point this out in general.)

 

Great point.  I have these conversations with dh every now and then.  I am a POC and he is not.  I think he can intellectually understand the differences I will bring up, but you can't really get what it is like unless that has and does happen to you.   We lately just had a conversation about the situational awareness that I have as a woman that I would have to think men don't really think about.  It isn't something that is on their minds all the time, like it is for me as woman.  I can't even imagine how light that would be to walk through life not thinking about those things. But I won't ever know in real life how that would feel.

[Ting Tang]

My son learns hapkido in his TKD class, and that could be useful. Some studios do teach self-defense classes privately or for groups. It’s a tool in your kit. Even in my son’s class, they acknowledge that some situations are more difficult than others to use self defense. I had to be there, but I could see this as a cynical viewpoint rather something else.  Or he’s a doofus. 

[Carrie12345]

So much good stuff in your response @Harriet Vane!

Just wanted to add to bravery. It does make a difference. My daughters took karate classes for a very short time, but it gave them a confidence boost. They carry minor defense weapons that give them a confidence boost. They are not OVER confident, which would be dangerous, but they carry themselves in a way that can signal they aren’t an easy target.

 

[mmasc]

I‘m kind of clueless how it could NOT be on a father’s mind! My (late) father taught me lots of stuff about safety and situational awareness when I was a teen and young adult. I do know that he was an amazing father, but I guess at the time I figured all dads were telling their kids this stuff! He seemed quite aware (and honestly worried) about it much of my young life. He didn’t pass that fear onto me, but gave me knowledge and tools to use if needed. 
 

OP, I’m with @Rosie_0801 The guy could’ve been kinder regardless of where he’s coming from—likely jaded from his job, but could just be a jerk. Or both. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[Jaybee]

11 hours ago, Harriet Vane said:

It's also completely true that practicing reacting and practicing being brave in confronting a situation makes you more likely to respond appropriately if attacked. It's true in sports and it's true in dangerous situations. You are more likely to scream, to hit, to block if you've practiced. If we have honed our reflexes to react, especially to react instinctively and without thought, we are more likely to do something helpful when threatened. So yes, self-defense classes really can help.

 

This reminded me of the other day--I had had vaccines, and both my shoulders were sore. Dh started to pat me on the shoulder or something, and I immediately shot my arms up in a defensive gesture. It caught us both completely off guard, and we laughed, of course. But it was thought-provoking to me how instinctive the movement was. Someone who has been trained would be more likely to have that type of reaction.

On situational awareness--I was very intentional in teaching my girls, especially, to be aware of who and what is around them. I may have made them a bit hyper vigilant in the process. But we lived where subtle attacks on women were very common, and not-so-subtle ones were somewhat common. I taught them that how you carry yourself can easily tell someone else if you are an easy target or not. Of course, some might see that confidence as a challenge, sigh, so it isn't a completely foolproof approach, but I felt that the awareness could at least lower their chances of being a victim. It's hard.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Jaybee

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

One of the police departments I work closely with has a policy that all assault victims are evaluated by an ambulance crew.  It’s not a great policy but they’re trying to cover themselves so usually I show up, talk to the person, and they sign a paper saying they don’t want to go to the ER.

In any case, it’s almost never a woman assaulted by a stranger. In fact the only few times I can think of when someone was assaulted by a stranger it was a man(bar fights, one was punched in the face while walking down the street by a mentally ill man, one on a hiking trail that was assaulted by someone who was high)…the women by a large majority are assaulted by someone they know. Boyfriend/ex boyfriend/husband/dad a couple times.  Or, strangely, other women is a fairly common one.

Of course situational awareness is a good thing, but I too am honestly so jaded that worrying about, say, hiking alone or going out to my car in a big parking lot after dark is not something I do.  I travel alone, hike alone, walk around alone and while I’m aware of my surroundings, I’m not overly concerned. Jaded, probably.

One of my friends is an ex police officer, ex military martial arts trainer who runs a business teaching security and self defense measures.  He does a women’s self defense class but he’s very up front that the techniques are…less than effective in many cases and your best reaction is fighting and screaming best you can. He has a teenage daughter and has told me that he spends 97% of his time discussing how to pick a partner/red flags to watch for/giving her the confidence to break up or seek help if a relationship has soured, and 3% of his time teaching her techniques to defend herself from a stranger.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Mrs Tiggywinkle Again

[stephanier.1765]

Yesterday I was shopping in Home Depot where I had two instances of situational awareness that caused me to react differently than a man would. If I even told my dh what happened he would have thought I was ridiculous in even being concerned. One, a man either coincidentally or purposefully followed me up and down the aisles as well as fully across the store when I forgot something. I finally went down the aisle that was in full view of the service desk, stopped and turned in his direction. I didn't move until he either got the hint or moved on because he was just done shopping. There is just no way to judge someone's motivation for certain. Two, as I was coming out of the store, another rather large man was walking practically on my heels. I veered so I would stay on the sidewalk longer instead of crossing the parking lot directly for my car. He veered too. So again, I just stopped and turned so I could see him (not staring him down, just situated so I could see him) and waited for him to move on. Both of these men were most likely not bad guys but as a woman you just can't take that chance and I don't think most men really understand that. If they did, men like your instructor would be much more proactive in helping a woman, even if it's only to help teach you the things you can do to help yourself even before you get in trouble.

[wintermom]

I'm a 3rd degree black belt in Taekwon-Do, and during the many years of training our instructor taught every student self-defense theory and practical moves. As one PP mentioned, males are involved in assaults as well as females, so the information can be vaulable to all. And as another PP mentioned, the confidence that knowing how and what to be aware of, and what can be helpful in dangerous situations, is huge. Also, doing activities that keep one fit and able to react, and even more importantly avoiding situations where one's physical capacity is diminished (e.g., drugs or alcohol), and avoid potenitally situations, is so important.

Similar to the OP, I'd be really disappointed about a trusted martial arts instructor's response to a valid question. He just seems unaware of the reality of many people's lives. Our instructor spent hours and hours working with children about dealing with bullying, as it's prevelent in all the school in our area. It's also very common in workplaces. Learning how to feel and be safe and confident in public, how to avoid getting bullied, intimidated, or assaulted is valuable for everyone. Personally, I would explore a different martial arts school, as this instructor seems to have tunnel vision. It's hard to know, though, with just this limited description.

[livetoread]

1 hour ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

Of course situational awareness is a good thing, but I too am honestly so jaded that worrying about, say, hiking alone or going out to my car in a big parking lot after dark is not something I do.  I travel alone, hike alone, walk around alone and while I’m aware of my surroundings, I’m not overly concerned. Jaded, probably.

I can relate. I've been thinking lately about the experiences I'm willing to give up because men might brutalize me, and which ones I'm not. I love reading about adventurers, especially women, and while I don't have the personality for hardcore stuff, I have been going on some mini-adventures alone, and it is glorious. We do need situational awareness, but there is a life to be lived as well, and while I know my risk as a woman is greater, I'm sick of curtailing certain things because of it. Live is short.

My dh worries but he understands and doesn't try and talk me out of it. My father (bless his heart) said after I did a one night, camping bike trip by myself, "You know that's the sort of thing people read about after something happens and think, well, yeah, a woman alone like that!" Didn't help my "woman in her 50s rage", lol!

[ktgrok]

16 hours ago, saraha said:

I guess, but a rant about the classes and  just saying I need to do a better job of teaching situational awareness in an uppity tone seems like maybe not the right way to talk to someone who just asked a question.

I do know that a college aged girl in our wider circle was attacked in a parking lot in broad daylight and using techniques she learned in a self defense class got the guy to back off her while she screamed bloody murder til people came running and he ran away

Plus, if he is that gung ho on improving situaitonal awareness, maybe teach a class that heavily incorporates that??? Like, I'd think that would be part of a self defense class for women, right? That, plus learning to punch hard rather than hold back, or just practicing kneeing a guy, how to break a choke hold or get more air, a few basics. No one expects to take a basic class and be flipping guys all over the place, but a few basics would be good. Like, if someone is choking you how to put your arms up through theirs and either break the hold a bit OR gouge them in the eyes. To bend back and try to break a finger rather than pull a hold hand off of you, stuff like that. 

[EKS]

Women are on average smaller and weaker than men, and men are on average (far) more violent than women.  These are facts that result in women needing to protect themselves through situational awareness and other means.  It has nothing to do with privilege and everything to do with reality.

[Clarita]

That is a super odd answer to your question. I asked a police friend of mine before and he suggested Krav Maga martial arts. While it's true as a woman you are likely to be smaller than your assailant and in a wrestling match with rules you probably won't win against a 200lb man, but in a real situation there's a chance that something that can be used as a weapon is available, or you might be able to catch that 200lb gorilla off guard.  So, it's nice to have some training to leverage what you've got and to be able to be violent and willing to use the weapons at your disposal. 

[saraha]

11 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

One of the police departments I work closely with has a policy that all assault victims are evaluated by an ambulance crew.  It’s not a great policy but they’re trying to cover themselves so usually I show up, talk to the person, and they sign a paper saying they don’t want to go to the ER.

In any case, it’s almost never a woman assaulted by a stranger. In fact the only few times I can think of when someone was assaulted by a stranger it was a man(bar fights, one was punched in the face while walking down the street by a mentally ill man, one on a hiking trail that was assaulted by someone who was high)…the women by a large majority are assaulted by someone they know. Boyfriend/ex boyfriend/husband/dad a couple times.  Or, strangely, other women is a fairly common one.

Of course situational awareness is a good thing, but I too am honestly so jaded that worrying about, say, hiking alone or going out to my car in a big parking lot after dark is not something I do.  I travel alone, hike alone, walk around alone and while I’m aware of my surroundings, I’m not overly concerned. Jaded, probably.

One of my friends is an ex police officer, ex military martial arts trainer who runs a business teaching security and self defense measures.  He does a women’s self defense class but he’s very up front that the techniques are…less than effective in many cases and your best reaction is fighting and screaming best you can. He has a teenage daughter and has told me that he spends 97% of his time discussing how to pick a partner/red flags to watch for/giving her the confidence to break up or seek help if a relationship has soured, and 3% of his time teaching her techniques to defend herself from a stranger.

And this was kind of my point. My girls in their current lives are much less likely to be assaulted by a stranger, much more likely by a date.