Learning calculus as an adult?

[Kuovonne]

My DD is in a private high school and forced into taking AP Calculus, even though an easier math class would be a better fit for her. The school is so small that they simply do not offer any other math class that she could take. My DD also has a very busy schedule and outside tutoring isn't an option.

So I'm toying with the idea of trying to learn calculus myself so that I can help her with her homework. I stopped homeschooling when my kids were in 7th grade, so I haven't taught any high school level math. I do feel comfortable with Algebra 1 concepts. I took Calculus in high school, but don't remember any of it.

I was thinking of doing Khan Academy to learn Calculus. Does that sound like a reasonable idea or totally insane? I want to learn enough to help my daughter with her homework, but don't have any other particular interest in the subject.

Are there other resources that would be better?

[MEmama]

When DS was in high school, his AP calculus and AP stats teachers built in homework time during class. The thought was that it's incredibly unlikely that parents at home can help sufficiently with classes they hadn't taken (and probably not used ) for 30 years, so the teacher wanted to be available to answer all questions correctly. Perhaps they'll do something similar? 

[Xahm]

I don't think it's beyond you to learn calculus, as long as you have time to devote to it. Particularly if you have a really good grasp of basic algebra. There's a lot to learn, but as a mature adult with more experience learning stuff, it'll likely be easier for you than it was the first time around. (Not to mention that some bits might be lurking at the back of your mind).

[cintinative]

I relearned Alg I, Alg II, Precalculus before I started relearning Calculus.  There are some concepts beyond Alg I that are used fairly frequently in Calculus. You will want to get your trigonometry, logarithms, and functions up to date especially.

It's not impossible, but you do have to consider you own time restrictions.  

You didn't mention if she is struggling with the class so far. How did her lower math classes go? 

It might be that you could help by finding youtube videos that correlate with the text that the school is using.  I have been using those to help me relearn Calculus and sometimes between two different videos, they cover the concept just differently enough that I understand it more fully by watching both.  It's not going to work in every scenario, but sometimes a different perspective/approach helps understanding.

 

[prairiewindmomma]

I had to teach myself calculus, but like cintinative, I had to back up a bit.

I struggle with Khan Academy. I liked Chalkdust Math better. Same videos are available here: https://coolmathguy.com/

That said, I really think you are better off finding a tutor somehow. Trying to teach someone to do advanced watercolors when you can barely sketch is a challenge, iykwim.

 

[EKS]

Derek Owens.  Assuming that your precalculus is solid, it is possible to get through DO’s course in just a few months.

Calc 1 actually isn’t very difficult.  It’s much easier than a rigorous precalculus course, for example.

[Beth S]

Day One of Engineering School, our son asked his two parents (who took Calculus 30+ years ago) for help on his Calculus homework.
We both looked at it & said, "We forgot it all.  We cannot re-learn Calculus to help you."

So he went to the tutoring center, & then studied with classmates. 

(Suffering thru Calc is what made me want to major in Accounting in College!)

Best wishes---you're a supportive parent!  (It was just beyond what we could offer our son.)

[Kuovonne]

Thanks for the suggestions. 
 

To clarify, my DD is a good student. She got a good grade in Pre-Calc last year, and I am confident that she could pass the class without my help. However, she also did zero math review over the summer (her choice, not mine), and didn’t know how to do some of the review problems assigned as homework. If there were a non-AP class, she would probably be fine, but her school doesn’t offer a non-AP version of the class.

I also do not want her to simply pass this class, because passing with a low grade would absolutely tank her GPA/class rank. And class rank is important because we live in Texas where top 10% is auto-admit to state schools. Best case (but still realistic scenario) she gets an A in the class, and a 3 or 4 on the exam, so she can get college credit. But for that to happen without a lot of stress and late nights, I expect that she will want additional help, and the only one in a position to step up with that is me. The school does not have tutors for calculus, and an outside tutor won’t work for DD due to her extracurricular schedule. She has weird pockets of time to do homework, and the best time for me to help DD with math homework is often when we are in the car at 9pm at night.

My DD has had this math teacher before and my DD sometimes struggles with how this teacher explains things. Changing teachers is not an option.

As for me, I can probably devote 2-4 hours per week to this. I am comfortable with Algebra 1. I could spend a couple of weeks brushing up on trig & logs, but if it takes longer than that, I worry about me falling too far behind to be of help. In previous years I was able to help with the algebra 1 concepts in her math classes by googling the concepts, but with calculus, I feel that piecemeal approach won’t work for me. 

[Terabith]

Honestly, is dropping the class an option, even if it means she's not taking math?  I know if kids have done a year beyond Algebra 2 here, they don't have to take math senior year.  Having gotten one kid through AP Calculus, with a ton of help at home from a father with a masters in physics who very much does know calculus, but the kid got a 2 on the exam.....I don't think your plan is realistic.   I don't think you can teach yourself calc well enough to teach it to her in 2-4 hours a week with the math you remember topping out around Algebra 1.  (No judgment!  That's where my math tops out out as well.). 

If outside tutoring isn't an option, I would either drop the class or resign myself to kid getting less than an A, and I realize what a problem that would be in Texas.  I just don't see a good path for success here.

[prairiewindmomma]

Pick a virtual tutor on the west coast (9 pm for you is 7pm for them) or drop the course. Taking a class she is struggling in already and then saying she doesn’t have time to study with a tutor means that math isn’t the priority. That’s ok. Own it. 

[cintinative]

16 minutes ago, Kuovonne said:

 

My DD has had this math teacher before and my DD sometimes struggles with how this teacher explains things. Changing teachers is not an option.

As for me, I can probably devote 2-4 hours per week to this. I am comfortable with Algebra 1. I could spend a couple of weeks brushing up on trig & logs, but if it takes longer than that, I worry about me falling too far behind to be of help. In previous years I was able to help with the algebra 1 concepts in her math classes by googling the concepts, but with calculus, I feel that piecemeal approach won’t work for me. 

Please don't think I am being defeatist, but I really don't think you are going to be able to be far enough ahead of her to really help at 2-4 hours per week. I know from experience.  It was recommended to me here years ago to make sure I am far ahead of my kids in math, in part so that I know where we are going, and in part because that means I have heavily practiced the skills they are just now learning.

My suggestion is to see if there are videos that correlate with the text she is using in school.  If you can share that here, we can help you find youtube videos that are helpful. I could suggest sites, but some that I have liked (like Tarrou's Chalk Talk) are very textbook specific for Calculus and I have found they aren't helpful for me because the text he uses covers things in a much different order.

[regentrude]

I recommend getting a tutor. You can find online tutors in any time zone of the world who can work for her schedule.
The internet is full of online calculus resources she could use to self-study. She could even join a virtual study group.

IMO, if you are only comfortable with algebra 1, there would be to much to catch up with to be of real help to her if you are only starting now.

 

[Kuovonne]

Dropping the class is not an option. She has talked to her counselor multiple times about her math option, starting last spring when she realized she would be forced into this class.

I’m not quite sure where my current math knowledge tops out. I am comfortable with Algebra 1, as in I could probably take an Algebra 1 final exam (cold, closed-book, untimed, no calculator), and pass. I do remember some trig and geometry, but don’t know if I could pass a final exam under those same conditions. (I am willing to spend a couple of hours trying such an exam, if it would help determine if what I am trying is unreasonable. Suggestions for a free placement test?)

She also will probably only want help for here and there. But I don’t think I will be able to help her with anything unless I learn the subject myself.

I’m also okay if she doesn’t get an A in the class. But I do think it is possible if she can get additional help when she wants it.

I was thinking of getting a copy of her textbook and trying to stay ahead of her, but her class doesn’t have a textbook.

Hiring a tutor for DD isn’t an option due to her schedule. Even a tutor at 9pm at night isn’t going to work because we are in a car, and I can’t picture trying to do online tutoring while in a moving vehicle with an unstable internet connection. On the other hand, I could probably do a tutor for myself—my schedule is much more flexible than DD’s.

If 2-4 hours per week isn’t enough, how much time would be reasonable? That’s 2-4 hours for me to learn, not counting time I help DD. I might be able to find more time in my schedule. 

Edited September 1, 2023 by Kuovonne

[Ali in OR]

I'm going to also agree that there is too much you need to relearn to be able to help your daughter. You need Algebra 2--in our area that gets split over two years as Alg 2 and College Algebra for a deeper dive into functions. Then you need trigonometry after that. An intensive honors course could do all of that in one year but I don't think that would be a pleasant experience for you.

This is a great opportunity for your daughter to grow skills she will need in college (even if she doesn't take math there). She should build a study group (text/chat group) with compatible students from her class. My dd found The Organic Chemistry Tutor's calculus videos very helpful (they're on YouTube). If there is any possibility of taking AP Statistics somewhere instead of Calc, that's an easier path and I think a better one for someone more likely to study say social sciences than engineering.

[Not_a_Number]

I'd get a tutor for sure. Even if you can't do real time tutoring, you could find someone to pay to field her questions -- she could e-mail them or something. 

I don't think you'll be able to learn enough at 2-4 hours a week, either. Also, as someone who tutors . . . there's understanding something decently well, and there's understanding something well enough that you can handle misunderstandings, and it's much harder to get to that level of proficiency. 

[Ali in OR]

You might try searching for a university's "math placement test review" to see the kind of problems you need to be able to do to take calculus.

[cintinative]

20 minutes ago, Kuovonne said:

 

I was thinking of getting a copy of her textbook and trying to stay ahead of her, but her class doesn’t have a textbook.

Hiring a tutor for DD isn’t an option due to her schedule. Even a tutor at 9pm at night isn’t going to work because we are in a car, and I can’t picture trying to do online tutoring while in a moving vehicle with an unstable internet connection. On the other hand, I could probably do a tutor for myself—my schedule is much more flexible than DD’s.

If 2-4 hours per week isn’t enough, how much time would be reasonable? That’s 2-4 hours for me to learn, not counting time I help DD. I might be able to find more time in my schedule. 

I think you are in a no win situation with trying to do this yourself. If there is no text, how do you know what you need to learn and when? The syllabus for the class may not help you.  

And even though I have learned ahead of my son, that does not mean I am always able to help him with his questions. There have been times when we needed to circle back with Derek Owen's staff on stuff.  The Calculus teachers have had years of working various problems over and over to get to their level of proficiency. You won't get there with one pass through, unfortunately.

Speeding through Alg II and precalculus and then also surpassing her in her current, ongoing Calc class would take me much more than 40 hours per week.  Then, once you are ahead of her--5-8 hours per week or more because you are doing the workload of an AP high school class.

Is a tutor in the very early morning an option?  Is she in activities until 9 pm. every night?  Weekends too?

 

Edited September 1, 2023 by cintinative

[regentrude]

44 minutes ago, Kuovonne said:

 

I was thinking of getting a copy of her textbook and trying to stay ahead of her, but her class doesn’t have a textbook.

Hiring a tutor for DD isn’t an option due to her schedule. Even a tutor at 9pm at night isn’t going to work because we are in a car, and I can’t picture trying to do online tutoring while in a moving vehicle with an unstable internet connection. 

1. It's basic calculus. Any of the dozens of standard textbooks would be fine to learn from. It doesn't need to be specifically for the class. You should buy a couple textbooks for HER.

2. How are you envisioning yourself working with dd on math? In a moving vehicle at 9 pm? You would need to sit down with a shared piece of paper or whiteboard to work out problems together. That can't happen while driving.

Edited September 1, 2023 by regentrude

[EKS]

1 hour ago, Kuovonne said:

If there were a non-AP class, she would probably be fine, but her school doesn’t offer a non-AP version of the class.

I honestly don't have a clue how different a non-AP class would be.  AB stretches a semester over an entire school year, so it's already "dumbed down."  

[EKS]

56 minutes ago, Kuovonne said:

I’m not quite sure where my current math knowledge tops out. I am comfortable with Algebra 1, as in I could probably take an Algebra 1 final exam (cold, closed-book, untimed, no calculator), and pass. I do remember some trig and geometry, but don’t know if I could pass a final exam under those same conditions

Honestly, it sounds as though your daughter is more equipped for calculus than you are.  In order to learn calculus well enough so that you can tutor someone else will require a solid mastery of precalculus (so everything leading up to calculus).  This means that you should be able to take a precalculus final and get an A.

That said, with the background you describe, you could probably pass a calculus course, but that's different from being able to tutor effectively. 

[Kuovonne]

17 minutes ago, regentrude said:

How are you envisioning yourself working with dd on math? In a moving vehicle at 9 pm?

The same way I helped her with algebra and geometry homework in a moving vehicle at 9pm. We talk. She reads out problems out loud. I ask her for clarification. I tell her my thoughts. Occasionally I wave one hand around. She ends up having to get really precise with her vocabulary and pay attention to pesky details to describe things to me.

It had its challenges, but was better than nothing. Plus, this pocket of time is not the only time we will have, but it is the best time because I know we will have it on a regular basis. Sometimes she would set up the problems for me in the car, and then the final explanation happened after I had access to pencil and paper. Plus, I’m not teaching the whole subject, I just want to help her out occasionally with homework.

She is not a remedial math student, she just needs occasional extra help because some math concepts do not come naturally to her. I’m not looking to tutor multiple students, just help her out with occasional homework. I also do not expect to be able to explain everything, but the more I can help her with, the less stress all around. 
 

But I am hearing that the general consensus is that this is a bad idea because I will not be able to learn enough fast enough. That is valuable feedback. 

[EKS]

9 minutes ago, Kuovonne said:

The same way I helped her with algebra and geometry homework in a moving vehicle at 9pm. We talk. She reads out problems out loud. I ask her for clarification. I tell her my thoughts. Occasionally I wave one hand around. She ends up having to get really precise with her vocabulary and pay attention to pesky details to describe things to me.

You could still do this with her.  If she is having trouble with a problem, she can read aloud to you what she did.  I used to have my son do this and he would very often discover what he did wrong.

 In my own math classes (see sig), we have online discussions where we ask questions and answer other students' questions. I find that in the process of writing up what I do understand when I am asking a question, I frequently realize where I was going wrong. 

I had a tutoring student once tell me this process is called "talking to the duck" or some such thing.

Edited September 1, 2023 by EKS

[Frances]

Who did she turn to when she needed help with pre-Calc? Personally, I think pre-Calc is more difficult than calculus, especially until calculus gets to integration. It’s not surprising she doesn’t  remember how to do some review problems from pre-Calc if she didn’t practice over the summer, as most pre-Calc classes cover a large number of topics. And unlike Algebra, she has not had to use it since, so has not had the opportunity to really solidify the concepts.

I would encourage her to find classmates she can work with and still consider the possibility of an on-call tutor, in addition to using any online resources you can find. If she got a good grade in pre-Calc, as long as she is willing and able to devote the necessary time, I think she will do fine with Calculus.

[Kuovonne]

4 hours ago, EKS said:

I had a tutoring student once tell me this process is called "talking to the duck" or some such thing.

In the context of debugging code, I call this "rubberducking". Except what I do isn't true rubberducking because rubber ducks don't talk or ask questions. And I personally need a base level of vocabulary, or I end up asking too many stupid questions.

I couldn't help her "use the squeeze theorem to get the limit of a piece-wise transcendental function" when I didn't know the meanings of most of the words with more than three letters. And maybe that phrase doesn't even make sense. I'm throwing together vocabulary that she's mentioned in the car.

4 hours ago, Frances said:

Who did she turn to when she needed help with pre-Calc

She has always gotten help from a variety of sources: teacher, peers, internet, and me, usually in that order. For Algebra 1, I could jump straight to solving the problems. But over the years I've had to say, "let me look that up and get back to you" or "sorry, I can't help" more and more often.

[EKS]

8 hours ago, Kuovonne said:

In the context of debugging code, I call this "rubberducking". Except what I do isn't true rubberducking because rubber ducks don't talk or ask questions.

So you have heard of this!  I was referring to my son telling me what he did or me writing it out my own question for a class's online discussion where there isn't feedback (yet) and still having it be helpful as being the duck thing.  When she gets a problem wrong, have her tell you what she did.  You don't need to respond.  Just be the duck.  She needs to know it's wrong though.  Does she have answers available?  If not, there are pocket calculators that will compute most of the answers for calculus (and online calculators that will do even more).  I highly recommend that she get in the habit of checking her answers as she goes if she has not already.

Edited September 1, 2023 by EKS

[gardenmom5]

Kahn Academy can be great.   There are also great videos on youtube to explain concepts.  (KA's videos are there too, and sometimes I'd have to do that when the videos through their site were on the fritz.)  Depends how much time you have.

 

1ds did Kahn Academy when he decided he wanted to do engineering, but had struggled with higher math, and never taken calculus.  He now has a BS and a MS in engineering.

[Ausmumof3]

I don’t think it’s totally a waste of time even if you use a tutor as well. DS is not getting the support he needs at school and I haven’t touched this stuff since high school 20 years ago. I have been able to help him some just by being able to locate where in the book to look for info, being able to listen and question stuff that’s not making sense. It’s not a substitute for support from someone more qualified but it’s better than nothing. Plus you might enjoy doing it just for yourself?

I tutor at a much lower level and while what parents do might be less well customised or less experienced they have a whole lot more time than I do at 45 minutes a week.

Edited September 1, 2023 by Ausmumof3

[Kuovonne]

Thanks to everyone who provided feedback. I have revised my goals a bit. I don't actually have to learn calculus to help my daughter with her homework. I just need to get familiar enough with the concepts so that I can ask intelligent questions. 

I went ahead and did Unit 1 (Limits and continuity) of Khan Academy Calculus AB over the past several days. I like how it is easy to do on the iPad when away from home, so I will probably stick with KA instead of looking for a physical book or something that requires pencil and paper. I made a cheat sheet for the trig and log concepts that came up, but don't feel a need to retake earlier math courses yet.

If I do one unit per month, I will finish the course by the AP exam. Of course, if DD's course has a different scope-and-sequence, I will need to adjust.

I have the contact info for a tutor, but will hold off on reaching out in case Khan Academy is sufficient.

[Longtime Lurker]

I messed up the formatting. Will try again.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Longtime Lurker
Weird formatting. Will try again.

[Longtime Lurker]

On 8/31/2023 at 10:00 PM, Frances said:

Who did she turn to when she needed help with pre-Calc? Personally, I think pre-Calc is more difficult than calculus, especially until calculus gets to integration. It’s not surprising she doesn’t  remember how to do some review problems from pre-Calc if she didn’t practice over the summer, as most pre-Calc classes cover a large number of topics. And unlike Algebra, she has not had to use it since, so has not had the opportunity to really solidify the concepts.

I would encourage her to find classmates she can work with and still consider the possibility of an on-call tutor, in addition to using any online resources you can find. If she got a good grade in pre-Calc, as long as she is willing and able to devote the necessary time, I think she will do fine with Calculus.

Yes to the bolded. If she did well in pre-calc, she may do just fine in calc.

6 hours ago, Kuovonne said:

Thanks to everyone who provided feedback. I have revised my goals a bit. I don't actually have to learn calculus to help my daughter with her homework. I just need to get familiar enough with the concepts so that I can ask intelligent questions. 

I went ahead and did Unit 1 (Limits and continuity) of Khan Academy Calculus AB over the past several days. I like how it is easy to do on the iPad when away from home, so I will probably stick with KA instead of looking for a physical book or something that requires pencil and paper. I made a cheat sheet for the trig and log concepts that came up, but don't feel a need to retake earlier math courses yet.

If I do one unit per month, I will finish the course by the AP exam. Of course, if DD's course has a different scope-and-sequence, I will need to adjust.

I have the contact info for a tutor, but will hold off on reaching out in case Khan Academy is sufficient.

I agree with the bolded. Just being able to ask good questions can be incredibly valuable.

[TechWife]

I think of your daughter

1) has to take this class

2) needs a tutor or other help

3) must make a grade higher than she can achieve without help

then

her schedule needs to be cleared to allow time for that, especially if you can’t conceive of a time zone when a tutor would be available. 

If either of you can’t imagine clearing her schedule for tutoring, then calculus isn’t a priority and you can make peace with a lower grade & lower GPA. I don’t think it’s your responsibility to learn calculus because you might have to answer a question for your daughter. Not everyone excels at everything, and that’s perfectly normal.

[Kuovonne]

2 hours ago, TechWife said:

I don’t think it’s your responsibility to learn calculus because you might have to answer a question for your daughter.

It’s not my responsibility, but I don’t see the harm in trying to do so? 

2 hours ago, TechWife said:

If either of you can’t imagine clearing her schedule for tutoring, then calculus isn’t a priority and you can make peace with a lower grade & lower GPA.

Her GPA is not enough of a priority to clear her schedule for tutoring. On the other hand, it is enough of a priority that I am willing to learn enough to ask intelligent questions.

This seems like a reasonable middle ground between doing nothing and getting outside help.
 

This lesser goal also seems doable.