Uncompensated losses: Tulsa's White rioters get off...again.

[Sneezyone]

Some folks say racism is a past offense and that no one living experienced or suffers from the worst crimes. How does this story jive with that view? It doesn't. There is no harm toward formerly enslaved Americans, no violence, no lingering impact on families that state officials are bound to respect or pay for becasue...reasons. https://www.politico.com/news/2023/07/09/reparations-1921-tulsa-race-massacre-00105355. 

[Eos]

This grieves my heart. "Unable to pay" is not a reason to avoid justice being done.

[Katy]

I hope they appeal.

[Pam in CT]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

I hope they appeal.

Yeah.  There's not a lot of time, as the remaining three survivors are all over a hundred years old.

 

@Sneezyone , do you know of any cases that have been *successfully* litigated under OK's "public nuisance" legislation?  As you know IANAL but its amendment history since its inception in 1910 seems weirdly... case-specific. 

[Sneezyone]

35 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

Yeah.  There's not a lot of time, as the remaining three survivors are all over a hundred years old.

 

@Sneezyone , do you know of any cases that have been *successfully* litigated under OK's "public nuisance" legislation?  As you know IANAL but its amendment history since its inception in 1910 seems weirdly... case-specific. 

Not a one.

[Harriet Vane]

SHAME.

😥

[Terabith]

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/walters-tulsa-race-massacre_n_64a83b65e4b0b6417636ffea?fbclid=IwAR2vk4Wo48eTwyuxCpfXYWddq0oWzCcxhl0t98p5Iag8irSnrDC5MmDs_8Q_aem_AfvHTc-ubNGErMuC2WboAG6EfABqAZn9N4ysgQHoSiCejlovcuZ1GB5ph5GsCQ5tFx0

[Murphy101]

I’m a native Tulsan.

Are the insurance companies that refused to pay at the time still in business? Could they still be held accountable?  I’ve never had an answer to that question.

What, exactly, would be the hoped goal of winning such a case? What would justice look like for the 3 remaining survivors?

I think desegregation would have swiftly ended black wall street anyways bc it thrived on the basis that black people literally couldn’t do that type of business anywhere else.

I’m not against compensation for damages or justice for the remaining survivors and certainly wish it had happened decades ago.  But I have no idea of what that expectation actually is so I can’t determine if it is reasonable or not.

Using nuisance laws seems by definition to not be a tremendous win.  🤷‍♀️

[Idalou]

56 minutes ago, Terabith said:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/walters-tulsa-race-massacre_n_64a83b65e4b0b6417636ffea?fbclid=IwAR2vk4Wo48eTwyuxCpfXYWddq0oWzCcxhl0t98p5Iag8irSnrDC5MmDs_8Q_aem_AfvHTc-ubNGErMuC2WboAG6EfABqAZn9N4ysgQHoSiCejlovcuZ1GB5ph5GsCQ5tFx0

The state school superintendant says it's ok to teach it, just don't make kids feel bad about it. What a sweetheart to think of his kids. He also spread conspiracies about cat litter in schools, but apparently Oklahoma has enough idiots who get fired up on that kind of crap.

 

[Pam in CT]

re content that "causes distress"

43 minutes ago, Harriet Vane said:

SHAME.

😥

That is precisely the POINT of the CRT!!! brouhaha though, isn't it.  Shame.  That is why Ruby Bridges picture books are banned from FL elementary schools, that is why Morrison's Beloved is banned from AP literature courses in VA, that is why OK schools are... well, not quite prohibited from teaching the factual history of their own state. 

30 minutes ago, Terabith said:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/walters-tulsa-race-massacre_n_64a83b65e4b0b6417636ffea?fbclid=IwAR2vk4Wo48eTwyuxCpfXYWddq0oWzCcxhl0t98p5Iag8irSnrDC5MmDs_8Q_aem_AfvHTc-ubNGErMuC2WboAG6EfABqAZn9N4ysgQHoSiCejlovcuZ1GB5ph5GsCQ5tFx0

Quote

Top Oklahoma School Official Says Teachers Can Talk About Race Massacre — If They’re Careful About The Race Part

So long as the history lesson doesn't cause "any" students to feel any distress by any discussion of conduct by white vigilantes, white law enforcement, white newspaper coverage, white municipal authorities and --

[Pam in CT]

re Whose "Distress" Matters

24 minutes ago, Idalou said:

The state school superintendant says it's ok to teach it, just don't make kids feel bad about it. What a sweetheart to think of his kids. He also spread conspiracies about cat litter in schools, but apparently Oklahoma has enough idiots who get fired up on that kind of crap.

 

Indeed.

[pinball]

1 hour ago, Pam in CT said:

That is why Ruby Bridges picture books are banned from FL elementary schools, that is why Morrison's Beloved is banned from AP literature courses in VA, that is why OK schools are... well, not quite prohibited from teaching the factual history of their own state. 

Sources?

in my research 1 Florida parent wanted the Ruby Bridges MOVIE banned in one FL district…and it wasn’t.

similarly, 1 woman wanted Beloved banned for AP Lit…and it wasn’t. Attempts were made to pass some legislation but they failed.

What are your sources?

[AnotherNewName]

5 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

Yeah.  There's not a lot of time, as the remaining three survivors are all over a hundred years old.

 

@Sneezyone , do you know of any cases that have been *successfully* litigated under OK's "public nuisance" legislation?  As you know IANAL but its amendment history since its inception in 1910 seems weirdly... case-specific. 

What exactly do you mean by cases? Do you mean a specific kind of case?  There is a lengthy history of the use of this statute in Oklahoma.  There also was an attempt to broaden the definition of public nuisance which was recently (2021) struck down by the Oklahoma State Supreme Court.

Regarding this case, the public nuisance angle was a Hail Mary attempt to get around a statute of limitations issue** and was always considered a longshot, and the 2021 decision (which struck down an expanded definition of public nuisance to include opioid manufacturers) made success even less likely. The two obvious hurdles were getting a court to agree with a broad definition of special injury and ongoing harm, and as expected this judge did not agree with the plaintiff's argument to expand the definitions. They can appeal, and it wouldn't shock me if they did, but they filed this case in 2020 and a reading of the 2021 decision gives insight as to where the Oklahoma State Supreme Court currently stands on broadly interpreting the public nuisance statute and any appeal has a low likelihood of success.

It is probably too late to push it now, but as with the Rosewood, FL, the most likely way to get any reparations would have been through legislative action.

**Previous cases regarding the Tulsa Massacre had already been dismissed in federal courts some time ago. The public nuisance statute has no statute of limitations, so it was the only possible legal avenue remaining. 

 

 

Edited July 10, 2023 by AnotherNewName

[AnotherNewName]

2 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

I’m a native Tulsan.

Are the insurance companies that refused to pay at the time still in business? Could they still be held accountable?  I’ve never had an answer to that question.

What, exactly, would be the hoped goal of winning such a case? What would justice look like for the 3 remaining survivors?

I think desegregation would have swiftly ended black wall street anyways bc it thrived on the basis that black people literally couldn’t do that type of business anywhere else.

I’m not against compensation for damages or justice for the remaining survivors and certainly wish it had happened decades ago.  But I have no idea of what that expectation actually is so I can’t determine if it is reasonable or not.

Using nuisance laws seems by definition to not be a tremendous win.  🤷‍♀️

Any claims against the insurance companies have long expired due to the statute of limitations.

[Janeway]

If I had been the judge in a case from over 100 years ago, trying to sue to hold people who were not even born, and the people who gave birth to them were not even born, accountable for crimes that happened to people who have been long since dead, I would see this as just an opportunistic law suit and would throw it out. I get that 3 survivors, who cannot even remember it, are still alive. I doubt those people are the driving force behind the lawsuits. Maybe we all should go back and look at all of our great great grandparents and sue the descendants, or whatever local people (as this lawsuit is not even demanding the descendants pay for the damages, they just want all people to pay for them) to pay us for stuff that happened over 100 years ago. Fact is, unless you are the first born son of the first born son of the first born son in a royal family, you personally have not lost anything based on a historical incident from over 100 years ago.

[Grace Hopper]

I was so sad to see this verdict. I don’t have any words to add to what y’all have shared above.
 

I ran into someone a few months back wearing a tshirt with a message marking the event. He was noticeably pleased and surprised that I (a later middle aged white suburban woman) knew what the shirt was referencing. I told him I thought it so important to remember, and wish he didn’t have to be surprised to meet people aware of the massacre. I’m afraid this event will be lost to history forever, and that is further tragedy upon tragedy and injustice. 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Grace Hopper

[Pam in CT]

re risk that Tulsa massacre is lost to history forever

1 hour ago, Grace Hopper said:

I was so sad to see this verdict. I don’t have any words to add to what y’all have shared above.
 

I ran into someone a few months back wearing a tshirt with a message marking the event. He was noticeably pleased and surprised that I (a later middle aged white suburban woman) knew what the shirt was referencing. I told him I thought it so important to remember, and wish he didn’t have to be surprised to meet people aware of the massacre. I’m afraid this event will be lost to history forever, and that is further tragedy upon tragedy and injustice. 

You generally rest more to the optimistic side of the spectrum than I do; but on the Tulsa massacre specifically I'm seeing a sort of Streisand effect, mostly through the CRT!! brouhaha that seeks to keep such episodes out of the classroom.

Back on the 100th anniversary I started a thread asking who'd learned about the massacre in school:

... which was sobering at the time. 

 

I sincerely doubt schools today are doing any WORSE than they seemed to in most regions then.

[Sneezyone]

2 hours ago, Janeway said:

If I had been the judge in a case from over 100 years ago, trying to sue to hold people who were not even born, and the people who gave birth to them were not even born, accountable for crimes that happened to people who have been long since dead, I would see this as just an opportunistic law suit and would throw it out. I get that 3 survivors, who cannot even remember it, are still alive. I doubt those people are the driving force behind the lawsuits. Maybe we all should go back and look at all of our great great grandparents and sue the descendants, or whatever local people (as this lawsuit is not even demanding the descendants pay for the damages, they just want all people to pay for them) to pay us for stuff that happened over 100 years ago. Fact is, unless you are the first born son of the first born son of the first born son in a royal family, you personally have not lost anything based on a historical incident from over 100 years ago.

Responding to this in excruciating detail would be tantamount to kicking a puppy. Be well.

[Danae]

2 hours ago, Janeway said:

Fact is, unless you are the first born son of the first born son of the first born son in a royal family, you personally have not lost anything based on a historical incident from over 100 years ago.

To believe that I would have to believe that things I provide for my children are meaningless.  I know I’ve benefited directly from the business my grandfather built.  Had it been destroyed by arson it would definitely have impacted the start that my father had, I had, and my children are having.

[Sneezyone]

8 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

I’m a native Tulsan.

Are the insurance companies that refused to pay at the time still in business? Could they still be held accountable?  I’ve never had an answer to that question.

What, exactly, would be the hoped goal of winning such a case? What would justice look like for the 3 remaining survivors?

I think desegregation would have swiftly ended black wall street anyways bc it thrived on the basis that black people literally couldn’t do that type of business anywhere else.

I’m not against compensation for damages or justice for the remaining survivors and certainly wish it had happened decades ago.  But I have no idea of what that expectation actually is so I can’t determine if it is reasonable or not.

Using nuisance laws seems by definition to not be a tremendous win.  🤷‍♀️

1. The three remaining witnesses aren't the only victims.

2. Desegregation didn't occur for another 40-50 years (two and a half generations later) so what you think would have happened is irrelevant given what we know actually happened.

3. The expectation is that something, anything, is done by this country to compensate the descendants of slaves for the blatant, unabashed, brutal, oppression, discrimination, and bias this country has inflicted on Black Americans...SPECIFICALLY the native-born descendants of enslaved people. Those reparations needn't be direct $$ payments but they should be substantial, targeted, and explicitly justified as reparative. It's NOT a gift, advantage, tip, or preference. It's payment for a debt long-owed.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Janeway]

29 minutes ago, Danae said:

To believe that I would have to believe that things I provide for my children are meaningless.  I know I’ve benefited directly from the business my grandfather built.  Had it been destroyed by arson it would definitely have impacted the start that my father had, I had, and my children are having.

You are a rarity. The other 99% out there do not inherit their lives being provided for. I did not and I do not know anyone at all who did.

[ArteHaus]

3 hours ago, Janeway said:

If I had been the judge in a case from over 100 years ago, trying to sue to hold people who were not even born, and the people who gave birth to them were not even born, accountable for crimes that happened to people who have been long since dead, I would see this as just an opportunistic law suit and would throw it out. I get that 3 survivors, who cannot even remember it, are still alive. I doubt those people are the driving force behind the lawsuits. Maybe we all should go back and look at all of our great great grandparents and sue the descendants, or whatever local people (as this lawsuit is not even demanding the descendants pay for the damages, they just want all people to pay for them) to pay us for stuff that happened over 100 years ago. Fact is, unless you are the first born son of the first born son of the first born son in a royal family, you personally have not lost anything based on a historical incident from over 100 years ago.

The most asinine thing I have read today…..

Surely, you jest?

[Danae]

3 minutes ago, Janeway said:

You are a rarity. The other 99% out there do not inherit their lives being provided for. I did not and I do not know anyone at all who did.

I’m not talking about having an income from or even a job in a family business. Not top 1% stuff.  Things like having a comfortable childhood with a stay at home mom where the kids don’t have to work after school and can focus on schoolwork and activities.  College with no debt.  A safety net that makes it possible to hold out for a better job instead of taking anything you can get, or risk starting your own business because you know you won’t starve or be homeless if it fails.  
 

The idea that the loss of a successful business wouldn’t have impact three or four generations later makes no sense.

[Pawz4me]

16 minutes ago, Janeway said:

You are a rarity. The other 99% out there do not inherit their lives being provided for. I did not and I do not know anyone at all who did.

I own land that my grandparents bought over 100 years ago. It's worth a substantial amount. Had it been taken from them, or had circumstances forced them to sell it for a pittance, my net worth would be substantially less. I am not royalty, and I am no one's son. I think there are many people out there like @Danaeand me.

[Janeway]

40 minutes ago, Danae said:

I’m not talking about having an income from or even a job in a family business. Not top 1% stuff.  Things like having a comfortable childhood with a stay at home mom where the kids don’t have to work after school and can focus on schoolwork and activities.  College with no debt.  A safety net that makes it possible to hold out for a better job instead of taking anything you can get, or risk starting your own business because you know you won’t starve or be homeless if it fails.  
 

The idea that the loss of a successful business wouldn’t have impact three or four generations later makes no sense.

Again, something I never had. It may not be a top one percent but it’s gotta be a top two or 3%. It’s kind of sad when the people who have so much just assume that everyone else had it too. Seriously. I am actually disgusted that anyone in this world thinks so many people have it like that. Just a bunch of wealthy people assuming that the entire rest of the world is living that way. But you can’t look around to notice to realize that your privilege is a rarity.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Janeway

[Murphy101]

39 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

I own land that my grandparents bought over 100 years ago. It's worth a substantial amount. Had it been taken from them, or had circumstances forced them to sell it for a pittance, my net worth would be substantially less. I am not royalty, and I am no one's son. I think there are many people out there like @Danaeand me.

“Many”?  Compared to what?

1 minute ago, Janeway said:

Again, something I never had. It may not be a top one percent but it’s gotta be a top two or 3%. It’s kind of sad when the people who have so much just assume that everyone else had it too. 

Idk that it’s sad so much as mildly frustratingly annoying to the majority of us.

[ArteHaus]

53 minutes ago, Janeway said:

You are a rarity. The other 99% out there do not inherit their lives being provided for. I did not and I do not know anyone at all who did.

A quarter of Americans can trace their wealth (and inheritance thereof) to land ownership received from the Homestead Act under Lincoln. 

Not only did that one piece of legislation create immense wealth (for the Europeans), it also, kinda left out the “freed” slaves. So no wealth building there. And well, no 40 acres and a mule either. We still need to consider that by that redistribution of wealth via land ownership, another group was also, umm, massacred, which would be the Native Americans. So much wealth is passed on through generations, and yes, that is felt by people today. Logically, land/money/business/etc/etc that was stolen from a people, will be felt 100 years later. Let alone, hundreds of years before that. 

And I haven’t even mentioned Black Wall Street, yet. The damage was being done well before then. 

What you are saying is that black folks being compensated for theft upon theft, at the hands of the European, would just be a silly handout (because you have, of course, never benefited from any such thing *wink wink*) to a generation of people who can’t/shouldn’t feel the effects of what their people have been subject to for several generations?

 

[Sneezyone]

13 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

“Many”?  Compared to what?

Idk that it’s sad so much as mildly frustratingly annoying to the majority of us.

Get over it. If your family was owed for generations of trauma you’d just forget and live on, even in the face of ongoing attack? Puh-lease.

I don’t care when more recent arrivals came, their history pales in comparison to mine and does not absolve THE NATION of its obligation to right this wrong. Enough is enough.

I used to have far more ambivalent feelings about reparations than I do now but the insistence, by newer arrivals, that all is/has been well is infuriating. 

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Murphy101]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

Get over it. If your family was owed for generations of trauma you’d just forget and live on, even in the face of ongoing attack? Puh-lease.

one - didn’t say that. But I might bc 

two - life is a struggle for everyone.  Most people, regardless of type of generational trauma, pretty much do just that.  They wake up and try to make it through another day trying to move on and live on as best they can. 

Just now, Sneezyone said:

I  don’t care when more recent arrivals came, their history pales in comparison to mine and does not absolve THE NATION of its obligation to right this wrong. Enough is enough.

ick.  We are all eating the same misery crap pie.  I’m not going to claim my slice tastes more crappy than anyone else’s. 

A nation cannot be absolved. But it can move forward to no longer continuing past wrongs.

Just now, Sneezyone said:

I used to have far more ambivalent feelings about reparations than I do now but the insistence, by newer arrivals, that all is/has been well are infuriating. 

I don’t even know what you mean by new arrivals. To what? The planet?! I certainly have never claimed all was or is well.  Not in the states. Not anywhere.

[Sneezyone]

9 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

one - didn’t say that. But I might bc 

two - life is a struggle for everyone.  Most people, regardless of type of generational trauma, pretty much do just that.  They wake up and try to make it through another day trying to move on and live on as best they can. 

ick.  We are all eating the same misery crap pie.  I’m not going to claim my slice tastes more crappy than anyone else’s. 

A nation cannot be absolved. But it can move forward to no longer continuing past wrongs.

I don’t even know what you mean by new arrivals. To what? The planet?! I certainly have never claimed all was or is well.  Not in the states. Not anywhere.

No, ma’am. Most people do not. The descendants of the enslaved in America are and have overcome centuries of state-sanctioned abuse and trauma that, literally, live in our DNA. A nation cannot successfully move forward as a unit without acknowledging, coming to terms with, and compensating for its harms. The US hasn’t done that for black Americans…ever.

What I meant by new arrivals, which isn’t surprising or confusing, is immigrants/immigration. Yeah, that’s a hardship, but it’s not an uncompensated generational trauma perpetrated by the nation/state.

Do you know how many times my patriotism has been questioned over my life, never mind that my spouse puts his life on the line for this nation, that my father and grandfather did, that my kids have sacrificed, the fact that we don’t subscribe to the forgive and move on ethos negates our claim to Americanness.

This nation has NEVER repaired the breach, paid for its enslaved labor, invested in leveling the playing field or even committed itself to being honest about it.

A major debt is owed.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Sneezyone

[pinball]

13 minutes ago, ArteHaus said:

A quarter of Americans can trace their wealth (and inheritance thereof) to land ownership received from the Homestead Act under Lincoln. 

I looked this up…and it based on different scenarios, calculations, and speculation. It is not a hard and fast number at all.

It seems to assume that anyone who originally received land from the Act, kept it and passed it along. I think that is a major flaw. People lost land and wealth for various reasons. 

Additionally…even if taken as fact , the number gave was described as 25% of adult Americans, not 25% of all Americans.

Shanks T. R. W. (2005). The Homestead Act: A major asset-building policy in American history.

[Murphy101]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

No, ma’am. Most people do not. The descendants of the enslaved in America are and have overcome centuries of state-sanctum abuse and trauma that, literally, live in our DNA.

And most of them do indeed go through their daily lives same as everyone else in the world.  They get up and go about their lives trying to survive same as everyone else. Because that’s just what most humans do. 

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

A nation cannot live forward as a unit without acknowledging, coming to terms with, and compensating for its harms.

and yet nations have moved forward.  America of 2023 is not America of 1950 or 1900.  Not for any descendant of any kind. 

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

The US hasn’t done that for black Americans…ever.

who has the US done that for? What country has done that?

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

What I meant by new arrivals, which isn’t surprising or confusing, is immigrants/immigration. Yeah, that’s a hardship, but it’s not an uncompensated generational trauma perpetrated by the nation/state.

I don’t think I would agree considering how much our country benefits from purposely creating second class people via a shoddy immigration system.  

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Murphy101 said:

And most of them do indeed go through their daily lives same as everyone else in the world.  They get up and go about their lives trying to survive same as everyone else. Because that’s just what most humans do. 

and yet nations have moved forward.  America of 2023 is not America of 1950 or 1900.  Not for any descendant of any kind. 

who has the US done that for? What country has done that?

I don’t think I would agree considering how much our country benefits from purposely creating second class people via a shoddy immigration system.  

We have nothing further to discuss. The false equivalence of voluntary migrants and enslaved persons is enough for me to know the conversation is unproductive.

[Danae]

33 minutes ago, Janeway said:

It’s kind of sad when the people who have so much just assume that everyone else had it too.

This conversation is entirely based on the fact that not everyone has it.  But that a particular group of people could have had it if another particular group of people hadn’t violently stolen/destroyed it.   

[Murphy101]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

We have nothing further to discuss. The false equivalence of voluntary migrants and enslaved persons is enough for me to know the conversation is unproductive.

Most people do not leave in the dead of night with nothing more than what they have on them bc it’s really what they volunteered to do with their lives.

That’s not even accounting for human trafficking.

Also.  From an Oklahoma POV, none of my state should even exist.  It’s supposedly all belonging to native tribal nations. 🤷‍♀️

What compensation is enough?

It’s an unproductive conversation bc you want me to just agree with you without merit for your argument.

[Sneezyone]

15 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Most people do not leave in the dead of night with nothing more than what they have on them bc it’s really what they volunteered to do with their lives.

That’s not even accounting for human trafficking.

Also.  From an Oklahoma POV, none of my state should even exist.  It’s supposedly all belonging to native tribal nations. 🤷‍♀️

What compensation is enough?

It’s an unproductive conversation bc you want me to just agree with you without merit for your argument.

Do go on.

[Ting Tang]

My husband's family has their family history documented.  A Polish immigrant walked miles and miles, from town to town, to establish a life.  I do believe their legacy is rooted in this history.  I do benefit.  It doesn't mean life has been without challenge for subsequent generations.  I didn't know them.  I just read about it on a piece of paper.  My life isn't perfect, but I do feel it is much better because someone had foresight.   So did they in Tulsa.

But there are also some who do not believe in generational wealth or passing anything down from generation to generation. They believe everyone should start at 0.  Fairness, they say.

In my opinion, if you believe in reparations, you should believe in the ability to pass along generational wealth and property---without having to sell off some of your property to pay the tax bill alone.  Reparations are due if we can agree that you should be able to pass along some of what you've built without having to give a substantial portion of it up.  

If you do have to start at 0, the "dream" should still be achievable--with some support, some of course. 

I do still believe in the American dream.  Some just haven't been given a fair chance to live it.  This is an example.  It's a shame it wasn't made right way back when.  But look at other historical cases---the guilty are still getting off.  We have lots of money to give away to other countries.  Yes, I am going there.  Why can't we use some of it to pay these families?  

Edited July 11, 2023 by Ting Tang

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

My husband's family has their family history documented.  A Polish immigrant walked miles and miles, from town to town, to establish a life.  I do believe their legacy is rooted in this history.  I do benefit.  It doesn't mean life has been without challenge for subsequent generations.  I didn't know them.  I just read about it on a piece of paper.  My life isn't perfect, but I do feel it is much better because someone had foresight.   So did they in Tulsa.

But there are also some who do not believe in generational wealth or passing anything down from generation to generation. They believe everyone should start at 0.  Fairness, they say.

In my opinion, if you believe in reparations, you should believe in the ability to pass along generational wealth and property---without having to sell off some of your property to pay the tax bill alone.  Reparations are due if we can agree that you should be able to pass along some of what you've built without having to give a substantial portion of it up.  

If you do have to start at 0, the "dream" should still be achievable--with some support, some of course. 

I do still believe in the American dream.  Some just haven't been given a fair chance to live it.  This is an example.  It's a shame it wasn't made right way back when.  But look at other historical cases---the guilty are still getting off.  We have lots of money to give away to other countries.  Yes, I am going there.  Why can't we use some of it to pay these families?  

Who here is arguing everyone should start at ‘0’? There are legit questions about passing multiple millions free of tax but 75%+ ppl in the USA have estates under $50k and $1 mil is a freaking ton. I agree with you about our priorities, tho I think overseas aid is of value. It really is about prioritization and the ability to see this as a debt/value and not a perk.

[Murphy101]

59 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Do go on.

I have. Sigh.

Like I said. It’s a huge crap pie.  To claim one slice tastes crappier than another is nonsensical and doesn’t do anything to improve the pie already eaten by anyone.

But we can stop serving crap pie. I’m a fan of that idea. 

[Ting Tang]

13 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Who here is arguing everyone should start at ‘0’? There are legit questions about passing multiple millions free of tax but 75%+ ppl in the USA have estates under $50k and $1 mil is a freaking ton. I agree with you about our priorities, tho I think overseas aid is of value. It really is about prioritization and the ability to see this as a debt/value and not a perk.

Oh no, nobody here has said that.  I am just mentioning how some do think.  It is an extreme way of thinking.  I don't feel people should need to sell off what they inherited just to pay the estate tax bill.  It's too sad for me.  I don't think the uber rich have to do that, though.  $1 million isn't even what it once was, but the uber rich really don't have to think about these things.  I bet we could carve out some funds for these families.  And Native Americans.  

[AnotherNewName]

2 hours ago, ArteHaus said:

A quarter of Americans can trace their wealth (and inheritance thereof) to land ownership received from the Homestead Act under Lincoln. 

 

FWIW I sourced this claim a while ago, as it seemed a bit off based on what I know about the Homestead Act.  The most common citation for that statistic is Shapiro - The Hidden Cost of Being African American - How Wealth Perpetuates Inequality.pdf | Powered by Box , but unfortunately I have not yet been able to access the original source.

However, the stated claim actually is 46 million descendants of the original 1.5 million recipients. However, the nature of the Homestead Act, its requirements, and what we know about the history of some of the grants given along with the requirements to fulfill those grants makes it very unlikely 46 million people can trace significant amounts of inherited wealth, if any, to those claims.  And no study I have located has claimed anything more than "potential" inheritances.

[chiguirre]

1 hour ago, Murphy101 said:

who has the US done that for? What country has done that?

The United States of America.

The Civil Liberties Act of 1988 paid $20,000 to each surviving Japanese-American internee.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Liberties_Act_of_1988

 

I'm glad we made good on that debt, but we have other outstanding debts that need to be addressed. It's not just slavery, the Tulsa Race Massacre, segregation, etc. It's all the programs that were specifically designed to NOT benefit Black veterans, potential home owners, Social Security recipients, etc. This directly impacts people today and it's not fair. The same goes for the financial claims of Native Americans. They deserve compensation for all the treaties we failed to keep. Since those were made with entities that still exist, we should honor them.

[wathe]

Canada has issued apologies and payouts for several groups that have been historically wronged:  Chinese headtax, Japanese internment, Indigenous residential school survivors.

[Sneezyone]

42 minutes ago, AnotherNewName said:

FWIW I sourced this claim a while ago, as it seemed a bit off based on what I know about the Homestead Act.  The most common citation for that statistic is Shapiro - The Hidden Cost of Being African American - How Wealth Perpetuates Inequality.pdf | Powered by Box , but unfortunately I have not yet been able to access the original source.

However, the stated claim actually is 46 million descendants of the original 1.5 million recipients. However, the nature of the Homestead Act, its requirements, and what we know about the history of some of the grants given along with the requirements to fulfill those grants makes it very unlikely 46 million people can trace significant amounts of inherited wealth, if any, to those claims.  And no study I have located has claimed anything more than "potential" inheritances.

It’s never been just.one.policy. The combination of systemic employment discrimination (ongoing) and accumulated wealth disparities due to lower incomes and public policy/subsidy choices created this mess.

https://www.minneapolisfed.org/article/2022/how-the-racial-wealth-gap-has-evolved-and-why-it-persists#:~:text=Stagnation%3A 1980 to 2020&text=In the 40 years between,of 0.1 percent a year.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Sneezyone