Jinger Vuolo - Free Indeed

[Ginevra]

Remember when we used to hash out the Duggars on here? We haven’t done that in a long while, other than He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named and his trial. But I am eager to read what Jinger’s book will say in talking about how she broke free from the “cult-like” influences she grew up under.
 

Jill broke free, too, but the most recent time I saw an interview of her and Derek, it was sad to me that she still had little or no ability to define herself apart from her upbringing, for instance, saying she cut her hair because long hair gave her headaches and saying she got her nose pierced after ensuring Derek did not mind. She stammered a lot and was clearly still concerned about not upsetting anybody. (I relate to that a lot, BTW; I’m not surprised she has not developed this yet because she is still young and I was that way too.) 

But Jinger seems prepared to clearly say, without a lot of “Umms” and “husband agreed s”, that she is leaving skirts and what not in the past. And if she wants to live in a city, dammit, she will! 
 

PS: Anybody want to speculate on the specific use of the word “Free”; I.e., “Free Jinger”? Coincidence or intentional? 

[Katy]

I pre-ordered the book, but I’m not sure she’s any more free. Her current church has faced fairly recent controversy as one of the assistant pastors sexually abused his daughter and his wife was blamed for turning him in to police instead of being submissive and reconciling. I guess instead of putting him in prison and getting their daughter safe. 

The few interviews or excerpts I’ve seen seem to be more annoyed with deconstruction than with dismantling cults. 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Katy

[Elizabeth86]

I disagree. I have the feeling that Jinger is seriously controlled by her husband. I think those 2 seem so embarrassing. Everything she does on social media comes across to me as her husband’s idea. Not sure why. I don’t see a problem with Jill. She and her husband just seem to be doing their own thing.

[Grace Hopper]

I was never much of a Duggar watcher. This is the book I’m looking forward to. 
 

https://www.amazon.com/Woman-They-Wanted-Shattering-Christian/dp/150648316X/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?crid=6LBUD47LRMTB&keywords=the+woman+they+wanted+book&qid=1674147874&sprefix=the+woman+they+wanted%2Caps%2C235&sr=8-1

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Grace Hopper said:

I was never much of a Duggar watcher. This is the book I’m looking forward to. 
 

https://www.amazon.com/Woman-They-Wanted-Shattering-Christian/dp/150648316X/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?crid=6LBUD47LRMTB&keywords=the+woman+they+wanted+book&qid=1674147874&sprefix=the+woman+they+wanted%2Caps%2C235&sr=8-1

I imagine that will be a good one too. I guess I feel more like I identify with Jinger, though, because growing up that way is very different from marrying into it. You literally have to create new brain wiring. You literally have to learn by practice that nothing horrible happens if someone thinks your dress is too short or you’ve gone rogue by getting your ears pierced a second time. 
 

Joshua Harris also came to his senses, too. So I wonder how that fits into Shannon’s experiences. 

[Carol in Cal.]

It sounds like the word ‘free’ alludes to Jesus’ words:  If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.’  This is from a lengthy passage in John 8 in which true freedom is associated with knowing God’s truth.  So I would surmise that she believes she is seeing more clearly what God wants her to do and be, and is free from the lies of her background.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Elizabeth86 said:

I disagree. I have the feeling that Jinger is seriously controlled by her husband. I think those 2 seem so embarrassing. Everything she does on social media comes across to me as her husband’s idea. Not sure why. I don’t see a problem with Jill. She and her husband just seem to be doing their own thing.

Interesting. I don’t get that feeling at all, though I do not follow them much, just see bits here and there. 
 

I *always* thought Jinger was the most likely of the four oldest girls to strike out her own way. I’m honestly surprised Jill moved away from those narratives as early as she did, but I still see a lot of fear from her. Jinger is the first time I have heard any of them say she was raised with harmful and damaging teaching that still affects her today. Jill seems less willing to say that and instead goes with, “We’ve come to a different conclusion”. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

It sounds like the word ‘free’ alludes to Jesus’ words:  If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.’  This is from a lengthy passage in John 8 in which true freedom is associated with knowing God’s truth.  So I would surmise that she believes she is seeing more clearly what God wants her to do and be, and is free from the lies of her background.

Well, sure; I know the scriptural reference. I just wondered if “Free Jinger” played into that title at all. Like, “Yeah! ‘Free Indeed’ like all the ‘Free Jinger’ people have been begging for for ten years!” 

[lauraw4321]

5 minutes ago, Quill said:

Well, sure; I know the scriptural reference. I just wondered if “Free Jinger” played into that title at all. Like, “Yeah! ‘Free Indeed’ like all the ‘Free Jinger’ people have been begging for for ten years!” 

I think it’s a reference to both. But I also agree with PP that I don’t think she’s free. She’s just traded in. 

[itsheresomewhere]

59 minutes ago, Elizabeth86 said:

I disagree. I have the feeling that Jinger is seriously controlled by her husband. I think those 2 seem so embarrassing. Everything she does on social media comes across to me as her husband’s idea. Not sure why. I don’t see a problem with Jill. She and her husband just seem to be doing their own thing.

Exactly.  She went from one cult to another.  
 

Jill has impressed me with how she has grown.  Including her being very open about getting therapy and supporting others who do. 

[Faith-manor]

First:

This book was ghost written by a person appointed by MacArthur whose church is not much better than the Duggar mess including vilifying a woman for leaving her husband because he was sexually molesting their children. The investigation found the guy, guilty as sin, and they went savagely against her because "God hates divorce". Many of the beliefs about women and children are not different than IBLP, but they put a glitz and glam on it by not being against education, and looking modern, and not living in poverty. This is a church that was full steam " covid is a hoax, and faith not fear". So Jinger has not deconstructed any faith matters significantly. She has exchanged one cult for another.

Second: MacArthur hires media consultants regularly. Given Jinger's previous issues with being entirely self conscious with public speaking, and the fact that she does not sound at all like herself, I would not be shocked if she was prepped by media consultants so her responses would be practiced.

Third: Jeremy gives off a very controlling vibe. Don't be deluded into thinking he is decent. He constantly posts unflattering pics of her on social media, and then makes fun of her in the captions and comments. His comments are really demeaning, mean teasing is how I would describe it. On top of which, he is absolutely obsessed with NIKE and constantly shows pictures of their shoes. It has reached a place where it is quite distasteful. He was open during their courtship that he was looking for a meek wife.

 Side note: The Free part does not have anything to do with Free Jinger on her end of it. She has actually made public comments about being 'weird" and  "uncomfortable" with it so I doubt she would give it a nod. And again, between a ghost writer and a publisher/editor she may not have chose the title anyway. It is maybe possible that they chose that as a ha-ha. However, I am dubious from the standpoint that the Fee Jinger people are not exactly the "positive press folks" so I truly think they used this as a nod to the verse to try to make it look like she is free from cult, and play up MacArthur's church as not a cult, except that it meets several criteria of being one. Typical!

Fourth: Apart from the birth control/quiverful aspect wearing pants and shorts, is not much of a "leave". A lot of women in IBLP have adopted pants, shorter skirts, and even some are wearing shorts these days. It is a nod from IBLP that if they don't modernize, it may be hard to keep members, and their membership is falling. If you go look at Joy Anna, Jed, and Jessa's social media, you will see a crap ton of jeans, shorter skirts, some shorts, etc. among the adult Duggar women, and the in laws. Though Jimbob and Michelle made a very big deal about these rules when they had the show, as soon as the cameras were no longer rolling, it was different. From my perspective as someone whose parents dabbled in IBLP and then settled for a slightly less abusive form of fundamentalism, I can say that some of the adherence to rules is what I would call performative faith. While giving up some of the performative rules can be an indication of a bigger shift in spiritual perspective, often times it isn't. It takes a lot of energy and emotional bandwidth to keep up appearances, and sometimes that stuff simply goes by the way side while the deeper, more alarming teachings of the group remain.

Fifth: in a promotion for her book about a month ago, she made an online comment that she leaves decisions to god and Jeremy and the church because she doesn't know what is best for herself. She really hasn't come that far except on the quiverful front, and the one thing that is good about that is she won't be having more children than she can handle unlike her parents. Meanwhile, Jed's wife is pregnant again, only three months between pregnancies, and Kendra and Joe have had four kids in five years. So the fact that they are no longer subscribing to quiverful IS an excellent step forward and especially for Jinger who admitted to having some long covid issues, and who also admitted to some disordered eating as a teen. 

 

[Elizabeth86]

43 minutes ago, itsheresomewhere said:

Exactly.  She went from one cult to another.  
 

Jill has impressed me with how she has grown.  Including her being very open about getting therapy and supporting others who do. 

I’m glad I’m not the only one. Yes, I feel like everything Jinger does online is her husband’s idea. It seems those 2 are desperate to do anything besides work including her tell all book.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Elizabeth86

[Faith-manor]

14 minutes ago, Elizabeth86 said:

I’m glad I’m not the only one. Yes, I feel like everything Jinger does online is her husband’s idea. It seems those 2 are desperate to do anything besides work including her tell all book.

This. The reality is that Jeremy has no charisma, and Jinger does not have that "Joel Olsteen's wife" kind of presence. He is not likely to be given a mega church or even grow one from scratch even if he does end up with a PHD from MacArthur's seminary which probably won't be worth the paper it is printed on given the degree of plagiarism scandal and lack of credentials of the faculty (honorary Doctorates not earned ones). Jerm likes nice things. So little wifey poo had to trot out her last name, and try to act like more than a B list celebrity in order to keep getting views. Her most recent debacle is the cooking videos. She can't cook. She doesn't know how. It is like watching an episode of Worst Cooks in America. I am not exaggerating. And don't make the mac n cheese because she called for sweetened condensed milk, and even though she was called out in the comments, she never bothered to correct the mistake. In the taco one, there was no sauce. She used a steak seasoning (product placement). That was it. No sauce. No anything TexMex much less Mexican. In the pizza one, the pizza was burned, badly. She didn't bother to remake.

Jeremy does not want to work or at least, he is not willing to work as pastor of a church that pays in the average range for the job.

[Katy]

I can’t stand Jeremy either. It bothers me that he lives on her last name & social media instead of working, but is still in control of everything. 

But having said that…. I’m not sure she didn’t always have backbone when she was convinced of something. The rumor was that Jim Bob never liked Jeremy and when he tried to break them up, Jinger said get back on board or we’ll elope. 

[Guest]

Ah Well. I feel sad to read these things. It sounds like a positive step for her and I want to see her succeed apart from the cult. I look forward to reading the book. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

In all honesty I think both Jeremy and Jinger found in each other a ticket(or so they thought) to the life that they each wanted.  

[Elizabeth86]

3 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

In all honesty I think both Jeremy and Jinger found in each other a ticket(or so they thought) to the life that they each wanted.  

Yes

[Annie G]

Faith-manor knows a whole lot more than I do about the topic, so everything I write is simply how I see it-without the background she has. 
Jinger is taking baby steps, but they are hopeful baby steps. Wearing jeans isn’t a big deal now, but it was when she started. She has now decided not to show the kids’ faces, (though they are seen from the back or side) which is a nice departure from how she was raised.  Likewise, being open to higher education for her girls and being open about Josh was also probably difficult for her based on a couple decades of her childhood brainwashing.
Changing her views on alcohol and birth control are two small (to us)but probably scary opinions to change knowing her parents wouldn’t approve. Sure, Jill had already done that, but Jinger also saw that her parents shunned Jill for her choices and for Jinger to follow in those footsteps was probably hard. 
My hope is that these baby steps will just be the start of her transformation. Her first step was to face her fear over her Gothard upbringing. I hope she eventually takes it farther. But I think about how many people who leave strict religious upbringing by walking away from God altogether. Perhaps this first step is just that-a first step. 
I’m  probably very naive to think that, but that’s where I am right now. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Annie G said:

Her first step was to face her fear over her Gothard upbringing. I hope she eventually takes it farther. But I think about how many people who leave strict religious upbringing by walking away from God altogether. Perhaps this first step is just that-a first step. 

This is one thing I thought was positive - and I say that as someone who pretty much left the faith. I think if she can find a space in which she leaves the cult stuff behind yet finds a peace in the faith and remains in it - well then, good for her, really. I felt the same way about Jill. 
 

I think it is better for people to have a faith than not, even though I have come to reject a lot of so-called organized religion. Remember, Jinger and Jill are *young*. The little snippet I saw had her talking about how she realized Gotherd was “not a Bible teacher” is, I think, *HUGE*. If it has taken effective speaking coaching to make her able to say that without her voice shaking and saying a lot of “Umms” and halting speech, we’ll then, good for her! 

[katilac]

I think that Jill has come much further than Jinger in terms of actually pulling away from beliefs and living her own life. Being anxious and fearful does not preclude being brave and charging down new paths! Jill very much reminds me of the first self-help book I ever resonated with as a young person: Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway. 

Jeremy is an extremely conservative preacher, so there's only so far Jinger can go (unless he changes some beliefs as well). Still, leaving some of the religiously-induced fear behind is a wonderful thing. As is not having eleventy kids if you don't want them. 

I am endlessly pleased and amused that Jinger ended up in Los Angeles. Pleased because it's what she wants. Amused because it's not what her parents want. I lmao every time I think of young Jinger saying she wanted to live in the city, and Michelle saying, no, she really didn't. She insisted that Jinger didn't mean she wanted to live IN a city, just closer to a city, you know, no more than 20 minutes from Walmart. 

No, Michelle, that's not what she meant. The girl said what she said. 

Edited January 20, 2023 by katilac

[Guest]

That was one of the cringiest moments of all time - which is saying something. “Jinger didn’t mean she wants to live IN a city; what Jinger meant was…” I wonder what Jinger thought when she saw that episode. 

[katilac]

I put it on hold at the library and I'm not even embarrassed. Well, I'm not so embarrassed that I won't admit it. 

[MercyA]

I'm #98 waiting on 4 copies available in my library system. Y'all have to tell me about these books sooner. I'm #1000+ in line on the Prince Harry book! 😉 

[katilac]

11 minutes ago, MercyA said:

I'm #98 waiting on 4 copies available in my library system. 

Wow, I'm 90 places ahead of you for Jinger and 857 places ahead of you for Harry! 

I don't see a way to tell how many copies we have, though.

I'm doing digital, which is my default, but my system only has digital copies. I guess they're still regretting the two print copies of Growing Up Duggar they bought. 

[freesia]

2 minutes ago, katilac said:

Wow, I'm 90 places ahead of you for Jinger and 857 places ahead of you for Harry! 

I don't see a way to tell how many copies we have, though.

I'm doing digital, which is my default, but my system only has digital copies. I guess they're still regretting the two print copies of Growing Up Duggar they bought. 

My library doesn’t have the Jinger book available for holds yet!  There seemed to be some secret society for this. I will check everyday for a book, place a hold as soon as I see it and am still way back. 🤷🏼‍♀️

[katilac]

8 hours ago, Quill said:

I just wondered if “Free Jinger” played into that title at all.  

I'm reading the preview, and she brings up Free Jinger on page 2 😂

[Guest]

8 hours ago, katilac said:

I'm reading the preview, and she brings up Free Jinger on page 2 😂

Oh, honestly, I love this! 

[MercyA]

Her name *still* rhymes with "ringer" in my head. It drives me crazy. Who thought that was a good idea?

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

2 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Her name *still* rhymes with "ringer" in my head. It drives me crazy. Who thought that was a good idea?

I mean her Dad isn’t really well known for good ideas.

[MercyA]

1 minute ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

I mean her Dad isn’t really well known for good ideas.

Truth. 

[Guest]

Yeah, I still really dislike “Jinger”. That was extremely ill-thought-out. But I’m not in favor of the “all J-names” trend, either. 

[Starr]

1 hour ago, MercyA said:

Her name *still* rhymes with "ringer" in my head. It drives me crazy. Who thought that was a good idea?

How does she pronounce it?

[maize]

10 minutes ago, Starr said:

How does she pronounce it?

Like Ginger.

[maize]

The name has always reminded me of General Jinjur in the Oz books.

 

[stephanier.1765]

13 hours ago, MercyA said:

I'm #98 waiting on 4 copies available in my library system. Y'all have to tell me about these books sooner. I'm #1000+ in line on the Prince Harry book! 😉 

My library account doesn't tell me how many copies are in the system (they do when I originally put something on hold) but as of right now I am #28 on Jinger and #496 on Harry. We have a large library system so I'm guessing there are quite a few Spares out there to be read. At #1000+ you may not see that book for another 2 years. Heck, by then, both he and Meghan probably will have put out a couple more books and, maybe even, a movie based on Spare.

[Faith-manor]

2 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

I mean her Dad isn’t really well known for good ideas.

That Iran understatement! 😂

[Katy]

Okay, she's clearly doing better than I anticipated.  Even if she is under a ridiculous church, she's definitely on the path of questioning everything and finding her own path.

 

[ktgrok]

on the one hand, I HATE the church/cult she is in now. They teach some awful stuff, and it is still a cult of personality. 

On the other hand she is at least learning that there ARE different ways to look at things, and she is still young. So hopefully she continues to make steps of progress.

Mostly, I feel badly that she had so much anxiety, including waht sounds like some scrupulosity, and didn't get help for it. 

[Guest]

Katy, thank you for posting that interview. I watched the whole thing. 
 

I am looking forward to reading her book. I see a whole lot of myself and my upbringing in her interview. My heart goes out. 

[Katy]

I just finished the book. It was surprisingly good. I cried at the end. It was more personal and less ghost written feeling than I expected. There were at least 3 annoying incidents of her directly comparing what Gothard said to what John MacArthur said, but as a Christian it was better than I expected. More focused on Jesus and taking Bible verses in context and trading performance for relationship than I expected. 3.5/4 stars. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Katy said:

I just finished the book. It was surprisingly good. I cried at the end. It was more personal and less ghost written feeling than I expected. There were at least 3 annoying incidents of her directly comparing what Gothard said to what John MacArthur said, but as a Christian it was better than I expected. More focused on Jesus and taking Bible verses in context and trading performance for relationship than I expected. 3.5/4 stars. 

Mine arrived today and I’m reading it now. 
 

I don’t want to overshare on this yet, but I do see a lot of myself in this mémoire, except I am more like Josh Harris in the end. It does make me wonder if her “disentangling” will ultimately lead to something closer to the deconstruction she sees herself as opposed to. 

[Spy Car]

On 1/19/2023 at 10:34 AM, Faith-manor said:

First:

This book was ghost written by a person appointed by MacArthur whose church is not much better than the Duggar mess including vilifying a woman for leaving her husband because he was sexually molesting their children. The investigation found the guy, guilty as sin, and they went savagely against her because "God hates divorce". Many of the beliefs about women and children are not different than IBLP, but they put a glitz and glam on it by not being against education, and looking modern, and not living in poverty. This is a church that was full steam " covid is a hoax, and faith not fear". So Jinger has not deconstructed any faith matters significantly. She has exchanged one cult for another.

Second: MacArthur hires media consultants regularly. Given Jinger's previous issues with being entirely self conscious with public speaking, and the fact that she does not sound at all like herself, I would not be shocked if she was prepped by media consultants so her responses would be practiced.

Third: Jeremy gives off a very controlling vibe. Don't be deluded into thinking he is decent. He constantly posts unflattering pics of her on social media, and then makes fun of her in the captions and comments. His comments are really demeaning, mean teasing is how I would describe it. On top of which, he is absolutely obsessed with NIKE and constantly shows pictures of their shoes. It has reached a place where it is quite distasteful. He was open during their courtship that he was looking for a meek wife.

 Side note: The Free part does not have anything to do with Free Jinger on her end of it. She has actually made public comments about being 'weird" and  "uncomfortable" with it so I doubt she would give it a nod. And again, between a ghost writer and a publisher/editor she may not have chose the title anyway. It is maybe possible that they chose that as a ha-ha. However, I am dubious from the standpoint that the Fee Jinger people are not exactly the "positive press folks" so I truly think they used this as a nod to the verse to try to make it look like she is free from cult, and play up MacArthur's church as not a cult, except that it meets several criteria of being one. Typical!

Fourth: Apart from the birth control/quiverful aspect wearing pants and shorts, is not much of a "leave". A lot of women in IBLP have adopted pants, shorter skirts, and even some are wearing shorts these days. It is a nod from IBLP that if they don't modernize, it may be hard to keep members, and their membership is falling. If you go look at Joy Anna, Jed, and Jessa's social media, you will see a crap ton of jeans, shorter skirts, some shorts, etc. among the adult Duggar women, and the in laws. Though Jimbob and Michelle made a very big deal about these rules when they had the show, as soon as the cameras were no longer rolling, it was different. From my perspective as someone whose parents dabbled in IBLP and then settled for a slightly less abusive form of fundamentalism, I can say that some of the adherence to rules is what I would call performative faith. While giving up some of the performative rules can be an indication of a bigger shift in spiritual perspective, often times it isn't. It takes a lot of energy and emotional bandwidth to keep up appearances, and sometimes that stuff simply goes by the way side while the deeper, more alarming teachings of the group remain.

Fifth: in a promotion for her book about a month ago, she made an online comment that she leaves decisions to god and Jeremy and the church because she doesn't know what is best for herself. She really hasn't come that far except on the quiverful front, and the one thing that is good about that is she won't be having more children than she can handle unlike her parents. Meanwhile, Jed's wife is pregnant again, only three months between pregnancies, and Kendra and Joe have had four kids in five years. So the fact that they are no longer subscribing to quiverful IS an excellent step forward and especially for Jinger who admitted to having some long covid issues, and who also admitted to some disordered eating as a teen. 

 

Wait, this poor girl joined John MacArthur's Grace Community Cult? 

Say it ain't so.

What I know of Duggars is via this forum (and later the news). I did not watch their reality show.

But John MacArthur is pretty local. I've known families who've gotten messed up in this cult.

Is "Spiritual Abuse" the right phrase? Maybe not strong enough?

Yikes!

If she is in that cult, she is not "free."

I hope I've misread.

Bill

 

 

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Spy Car

[Annie G]

55 minutes ago, Quill said:

 

I don’t want to overshare on this yet, but I do see a lot of myself in this mémoire, except I am more like Josh Harris in the end. It does make me wonder if her “disentangling” will ultimately lead to something closer to the deconstruction she sees herself as opposed to. 

Can you explain the difference between Jinger’s disentangling vs the deconstruction that Harris embraces?  I don’t know why Harris is no longer a Christian, but I don’t see Jinger ever walking away from it.  If you’re willing to talk about it, I’d like to hear why you lean more towards deconstruction.  
Haven’t read the book yet, but it has been interesting seeing all the interviews where Jinger hasn’t blamed her parents for their part in it. sure, Gothard made the rules, but the parents followed them even when they KNEW they weren’t working. So maybe this is just her first step- deal w Gothard first, then eventually how her parents didn’t protect her. 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Annie G said:

Can you explain the difference between Jinger’s disentangling vs the deconstruction that Harris embraces?  I don’t know why Harris is no longer a Christian, but I don’t see Jinger ever walking away from it.  If you’re willing to talk about it, I’d like to hear why you lean more towards deconstruction.  
Haven’t read the book yet, but it has been interesting seeing all the interviews where Jinger hasn’t blamed her parents for their part in it. sure, Gothard made the rules, but the parents followed them even when they KNEW they weren’t working. So maybe this is just her first step- deal w Gothard first, then eventually how her parents didn’t protect her. 

As I understand it (have not read anything by Harris since “I Kissed Dating Goodbye”), Joshua Harris deconstructed Christianity. He does not identify himself as Christian anymore and neither does his ex-wife. 
 

Jinger seems to realize, “Woah, yo! I was taught a whole lot of B.S.!” But she emphatically says she still loves Jesus (and her family) and completely sees herself as a Christian. She recognizes that Gothardwas toxic and “was very black-and-white” in his thinking. She is still young, like not yet 30, and I think she has many adjustments to make in her thinking. 
 

It is entirely possible I am simply projecting my own experience growing up similarly and with a very similar defective thought process as she was using onto her life. I will not be surprised if this is the not the last revision her beliefs about God will go through. 
 

For *me* - and recognizing I am not everybody - realizing that being a godly person who sought to do god’s will, prayed, read the Bible, sang in the choir, etc., etc…realizing that throwing myself into god was not going to protect me from the tragedies of life and, in fact, was not even a reliable way to being treated well by ordinary other people left me with no *reason* to follow god. I could not make sense of the idea that I was in “a relationship” with god, yet had no way of *actually* relating to god. Can’t hear god audibly; can’t go have a cup of coffee with him; can’t actually know for sure what “God’s will” would be. (Actually saw So Many instances of people deeming something God’s will because it simply matched up with what they wanted to do…) 

Back to Jinger…I would be happy to hear she retains her faith until her dying day. I have a lot of philosophical reasons why I think it’s preferable to be a person of faith than not. But I see a lot of OCD-like traits that remind me of myself. I don’t think it’s extremely likely she has eradicated all of those tendencies at 29 years of age. I expect that she thinks she is *now* doing Christianity the right way and so *now* she has God’s favor for real. I do not think she would be consciously aware of those thoughts - I wasn’t - but I expect it is like that; she has “disentangled” her beliefs, gotten rid of the stupid Gothard stuff and is still a faithful Christian. I expect she thinks she is “doing it right” now. 
 

PS.: I would love to be wrong.

[Annie G]

Quill, thanks for taking the time to explain. 
Agree that Jinger isn’t done figuring this out. But ya know, even at 62 I’m not sure I’ve figured out my faith either.  And I didn’t have a cult to disentangle from. 
 

[Katy]

She admits she's not done figuring it out and still retains a lot of Gothard's teaching.  But maintains it's better to have faith in the grace and love of God than in a man-made set of rules that don't work, don't change anything, and when she's stuck on some dumb rule she does her best to see what the Bible says *in context, not by cherry-picking a verse* and follow that.

She never labels her thinking as any sort of psychological term like OCD, and I don't know that much about OCD, but I definitely see similar patterns in her thinking.  I know her current pastor has been criticized in the past for dismissing mental health concerns as real, but I don't know of that is still true.  If it is I doubt her mental health will be addressed any time soon.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Katy said:

She never labels her thinking as any sort of psychological term like OCD, and I don't know that much about OCD, but I definitely see similar patterns in her thinking.

Yes; so far she has talked about a feature of OCD that has a specific diagnostic criteria - scrupulosity. This fear that maybe you did something sinful but forgot or accidentally did not seek forgiveness. So far she only relates that to the harmfulness of the Gothard teaching. As you said, it is probably not acknowledged as a mental/hormonal disorder. 
 

[Faith-manor]

14 hours ago, Spy Car said:

Wait, this poor girl joined John MacArthur's Grace Community Cult? 

Say it ain't so.

What I know of Duggars is via this forum (and later the news). I did not watch their reality show.

But John MacArthur is pretty local. I've known families who've gotten messed up in this cult.

Is "Spiritual Abuse" the right phrase? Maybe not strong enough?

Yikes!

If she is in that cult, she is not "free."

I hope I've misread.

Bill

 

 

 

You did not misread.

Jeremy actually works for the church and is a "doctoral" students at Master's. Jinger did not write the book. She had a ghost writer from MacArthur's staff.

There is literally zero freedom. She simply exchanged one very abusive cult for another one.

[Spy Car]

11 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

You did not misread.

Jeremy actually works for the church and is a "doctoral" students at Master's. Jinger did not write the book. She had a ghost writer from MacArthur's staff.

There is literally zero freedom. She simply exchanged one very abusive cult for another one.

That Master's College is one creepy place. It is in a pretty area. Oakwoodlands. But even when I knew nothing about who ran that place, the "vibes"
were not good. Creepy.

In more recent years, I've unfortunately been made aware of some the spiritual abuse stories. It is bad. This is an abusive cult.

From one cult into another cult.

Bill

 

 

 

[Spy Car]

12 hours ago, Katy said:

She admits she's not done figuring it out and still retains a lot of Gothard's teaching.  But maintains it's better to have faith in the grace and love of God than in a man-made set of rules that don't work, don't change anything, and when she's stuck on some dumb rule she does her best to see what the Bible says *in context, not by cherry-picking a verse* and follow that.

She never labels her thinking as any sort of psychological term like OCD, and I don't know that much about OCD, but I definitely see similar patterns in her thinking.  I know her current pastor has been criticized in the past for dismissing mental health concerns as real, but I don't know of that is still true.  If it is I doubt her mental health will be addressed any time soon.

They will be "addressed." Master's/Grace has a name for it, which slipped my mind at the moment, but she will get "counselling" (of a sort) from those in the hierarchy, and then they will leverage the information they glean against her. That's what they do. 

For real.

This poor woman is not "free."

Bill