If a mom introduces someone as “Kid’s Dad”

[Drama Llama]

4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

He's mentally ill and clearly totally irrational in this way, yes. And he sounds scary. This is an incredibly tough situation. 

That's not the same thing as saying that his feelings being hurt is hard to understand. It's very easy to understand. It's also irrelevant. 

I actually don't think he's totally irrational.

When he's really sick, he's very easily triggered.  He can go from fine to screaming in the blink of an eye.  And it really seems like he's got no control.  And when he's really sick there are lots of other signs and my kids are never in a space with him without one of handful of people (not me) between them.  

But last night?  There were none of the other signs of agitation before this happened.  The comment was made early in the concert, and he sat there through the concert, applauded, smiled, walked out, waited till his brother was walking away and then began.  That, to me, shows much more control and premeditation.  The word that comes to mind for that sounds like glassbowl.  Except I like glassbowls.  

[ktgrok]

4 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

I actually don't think he's totally irrational.

When he's really sick, he's very easily triggered.  He can go from fine to screaming in the blink of an eye.  And it really seems like he's got no control.  And when he's really sick there are lots of other signs and my kids are never in a space with him without one of handful of people (not me) between them.  

But last night?  There were none of the other signs of agitation before this happened.  The comment was made early in the concert, and he sat there through the concert, applauded, smiled, walked out, waited till his brother was walking away and then began.  That, to me, shows much more control and premeditation.  The word that comes to mind for that sounds like glassbowl.  Except I like glassbowls.  

Sadly, sometimes when people who are ill start getting more control back it doesn't make them less mean, it makes them better at being mean, and more purposeful about it. 

I'm so sorry. 

[Not_a_Number]

9 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

I actually don't think he's totally irrational.

When he's really sick, he's very easily triggered.  He can go from fine to screaming in the blink of an eye.  And it really seems like he's got no control.  And when he's really sick there are lots of other signs and my kids are never in a space with him without one of handful of people (not me) between them.  

But last night?  There were none of the other signs of agitation before this happened.  The comment was made early in the concert, and he sat there through the concert, applauded, smiled, walked out, waited till his brother was walking away and then began.  That, to me, shows much more control and premeditation.  The word that comes to mind for that sounds like glassbowl.  Except I like glassbowls.  

Here's the thing that's hard for me to understand, and that's whether he's completely forfeited his chances or not. 

If he has (and I wouldn't blame you!), then you should make your peace with that and then think about what to do. 

But if he hasn't, and you still think there's a possible viable relationship here, then there's no point thinking about whether he was a glassbowl or not. It doesn't help him and it doesn't help you. 

[Rosie_0801]

19 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Here's the thing that's hard for me to understand, and that's whether he's completely forfeited his chances or not. 

If he has (and I wouldn't blame you!), then you should make your peace with that and then think about what to do. 

But if he hasn't, and you still think there's a possible viable relationship here, then there's no point thinking about whether he was a glassbowl or not. It doesn't help him and it doesn't help you. 

It's her and her children's best legal interest to stay in this limbo as long as possible.

I say legal, because legal trumps all the other kinds of best interests this mess isn't in. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Rosie_0801 said:

It's her and her children's best legal interest to stay in this limbo as long as possible.

I say legal, because legal trumps all the other kinds of best interests this mess isn't in. 

Sure. I believe that. One possible thing she could do is to INTERNALLY decide she's done and then play it like that. 

But I can't tell if that's where she is or not. Maybe she can't tell, either. It doesn't sound quite like that to me. 

[Rosie_0801]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

Sure. I believe that. One possible thing she could do is to INTERNALLY decide she's done and then play it like that. 

But I can't tell if that's where she is or not. Maybe she can't tell, either. It doesn't sound quite like that to me. 

Another thing she could do is use the internal pendulum swinging to help delay a decision it's not in anyone's best interest to make. 

The internal pretzeling someone in her situation needs to do to keep putting one foot in front of the other is, I hope, beyond the imagination of anyone who hasn't been there and done similar.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Rosie_0801 said:

Another thing she could do is use the internal pendulum swinging to help delay a decision it's not in anyone's best interest to make. 

The internal pretzeling someone in her situation needs to do to keep putting one foot in front of the other is, I hope, beyond the imagination of anyone who hasn't been there and done similar.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly do best when I know my own mind, whether I let other people know what's inside me or not. It centers me and gives me confidence for each next step. 

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Another thing she could do is use the internal pendulum swinging to help delay a decision it's not in anyone's best interest to make. 

The internal pretzeling someone in her situation needs to do to keep putting one foot in front of the other is, I hope, beyond the imagination of anyone who hasn't been there and done similar.

What, in your opinion, is the advantage of not being clear about one's own limits? 

I ask because in my own life, it has caused me nothing but grief to swing back and forth like this. I devote a substantial chunk of each day right now to getting some clarity about my needs and I've found it tremendously helpful. 

But as you say, I haven't been in this situation. I'd like to know what you mean.

[Rosie_0801]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly do best when I know my own mind, whether I let other people know what's inside me or not. It centers me and gives me confidence for each next step. 

I'm sure our friend here is bright enough to think of that if that's what she needs.

[Rosie_0801]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

What, in your opinion, is the advantage of not being clear about one's own limits? 

I ask because in my own life, it has caused me nothing but grief to swing back and forth like this. I devote a substantial chunk of each day right now to getting some clarity about my needs and I've found it tremendously helpful. 

But as you say, I haven't been in this situation. I'd like to know what you mean.

I honestly don't think I know how to explain in a way you'd understand.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Rosie_0801 said:

I'm sure our friend here is bright enough to think of that if that's what she needs.

Well, I wasn't. I had no idea what feeling totally centered in my needs felt like until a year ago. And it felt frightening. 

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

I honestly don't think I know how to explain in a way you'd understand.

🤷‍♀️ I can't speak to that. I can tell you that I'm genuinely interested. 

Edited October 15, 2022 by Not_a_Number

[Harriet Vane]

13 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

It's her and her children's best legal interest to stay in this limbo as long as possible.

I say legal, because legal trumps all the other kinds of best interests this mess isn't in. 

Yes. Thanks for saying this, Rosie.

[Rosie_0801]

I only know that in some situations, swinging between hope and hopelessness, without settling decisively on either is the only way to keep yourself going.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Rosie_0801 said:

I only know that in some situations, swinging between hope and hopelessness, without settling decisively on either is the only way to keep yourself going.

Sure. But the combination of hope and hopelessness is still basically hope. Real hopelessness is when hope leaves. 

Edited October 15, 2022 by Not_a_Number

[Harriet Vane]

11 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Another thing she could do is use the internal pendulum swinging to help delay a decision it's not in anyone's best interest to make. 

The internal pretzeling someone in her situation needs to do to keep putting one foot in front of the other is, I hope, beyond the imagination of anyone who hasn't been there and done similar.

This, too. Wise words.

[BusyMom5]

I agree with everyone else about his behavior towards you.  You did nothing wrong.  He scares me.  Seriously.  What you post about him makes me scared for you and your kids.  That said,  another comment you made kinda stood out for me. 

Your kids are getting older.  Carpooling to events is the norm at this age.  Kids start a slow break away, in safety, and each year they get a bit more freedom.  This is normal, and its also normal to feel kinda stressed about it- but its more important for your kids to have that time.  Most parents understand that.  He is being extremely controlling over them and you.  None of this is a reasonable reaction.   

[Not_a_Number]

8 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Sure. But the combination of hope and hopelessness is still basically hope. Real hopelessness is when hope leaves. 

Dunno why the laugh react. (Honestly, it hurt my feelings.) I've spent most of this year swinging between hope and hopelessness. It didn't feel FINAL the way that truly feeling like there's no way back does. 

Edited October 15, 2022 by Not_a_Number

[Grace Hopper]

So now…. for this game that’s four hours away…. Now that you will be taking kid, does that mean dad is able to go, since you are a designated supervisor (I’m assuming you are, maybe not)?

Because that’s all kind of wrong, thinking that his temper tantrum got him his way. 
 

If he will be going, I sure do hope you don’t plan to ride all those hours in the car with him. 

[Drama Llama]

4 minutes ago, Grace Hopper said:

So now…. for this game that’s four hours away…. Now that you will be taking kid, does that mean dad is able to go, since you are a designated supervisor (I’m assuming you are, maybe not)?

Because that’s all kind of wrong, thinking that his temper tantrum got him his way. 
 

If he will be going, I sure do hope you don’t plan to ride all those hours in the car with him. 

No, I'm not telling him I'm going until it's too late for him to catch up.

[Rosie_0801]

15 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Dunno why the laugh react. (Honestly, it hurt my feelings.) I've spent most of this year swinging between hope and hopelessness. It didn't feel FINAL the way that truly feeling like there's no way back does. 

I understand.

[Melissa Louise]

1 hour ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Another thing she could do is use the internal pendulum swinging to help delay a decision it's not in anyone's best interest to make. 

The internal pretzeling someone in her situation needs to do to keep putting one foot in front of the other is, I hope, beyond the imagination of anyone who hasn't been there and done similar.

Uh-huh. Amen.

Really.

[fraidycat]

5 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

I don’t know why people are reacting to this like it’s sad.  He did the right thing stepping in like that.  He’s a good guy, my BIL.

I was sad reacting to the other family choosing not to take your DS as you feared would happen.

BIL sounds like a fantastic guy.

[*LC]

12 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

Angry at the couple for not driving him?

If you knew someone was abusive, and they didn't want you to do something with their kid, wouldn't you think twice about putting yourself in that position? 

I don't blame them at all.  Honestly, I'm not looking for another driver because I don't trust DH not to show up at the game.  Either I'll take DS, or DS won't go. 

I would not have backed out of taking your son to the game, because I had already told you I would do it. I would see “your son’s dad” as a bully, and I would want to help you and son even more than I did before witnessing his outburst. I do not make decisions out of fear. 

10 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

OK can I be a little whiny?

I am going to take my kid to the game.  It’s definitely the right choice.

But the reason I was staying back is tomorrow is homecoming for my oldest and I really wanted to be there for it.  I not sure he cares at all, but I wanted to see them all dressed up, and drive them and hear their excited chatter on the way and meet the friends they’re going with.  
 

It’s just a silly thing but I don’t look forward to things very often anymore.

In your shoes, my younger kid would miss the game. Simply text the coach that son’s ride fell through, so he won’t be at the game. He is young and has plenty of opportunities to play soccer. My kids played travel sports, so I completely understand theconsequences/commitment/importance. (Plus, I’m not a big fan of needing to travel 8 hours in one day for 1 game or even 2.) 

I would stick to my commitment of driving older son and friends to homecoming. It is a one-time opportunity; soccer is every weekend.

[pinball]

10 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

I actually don't think he's totally irrational.

When he's really sick, he's very easily triggered.  He can go from fine to screaming in the blink of an eye.  And it really seems like he's got no control.  And when he's really sick there are lots of other signs and my kids are never in a space with him without one of handful of people (not me) between them.  

But last night?  There were none of the other signs of agitation before this happened.  The comment was made early in the concert, and he sat there through the concert, applauded, smiled, walked out, waited till his brother was walking away and then began.  That, to me, shows much more control and premeditation.  The word that comes to mind for that sounds like glassbowl.  Except I like glassbowls.  

So when did the other family see the outburst? 

[Drama Llama]

2 hours ago, *LC said:

I would not have backed out of taking your son to the game, because I had already told you I would do it. I would see “your son’s dad” as a bully, and I would want to help you and son even more than I did before witnessing his outburst. I do not make decisions out of fear. 

In your shoes, my younger kid would miss the game. Simply text the coach that son’s ride fell through, so he won’t be at the game. He is young and has plenty of opportunities to play soccer. My kids played travel sports, so I completely understand theconsequences/commitment/importance. (Plus, I’m not a big fan of needing to travel 8 hours in one day for 1 game or even 2.) 

I would stick to my commitment of driving older son and friends to homecoming. It is a one-time opportunity; soccer is every weekend.

I feel like I made the right decision for my particular kids.  My older kid’s girlfriend’s parents are happy to drive.

My younger kid’s friendships have been pretty heavily impacted by his dad, more so than his brother, and I think the social impact of letting his team down wouldn’t help.

[Drama Llama]

30 minutes ago, pinball said:

So when did the other family see the outburst? 

Their kid goes to my kids’ school so they were at the same event, and in the same parking lot.  

[Scarlett]

12 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

I don’t know why people are reacting to this like it’s sad.  He did the right thing stepping in like that.  He’s a good guy, my BIL.

Yes he is amazing.  I so often see no one stepping in to stop a bully.   And refusing to be with him for the supervised visit the next day was also a very Important boundary to draw.  Your husband desperately needs to feel the consequences of of his actions.

[Clemsondana]

7 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

I feel like I made the right decision for my particular kids.  My older kid’s girlfriend’s parents are happy to drive.

My younger kid’s friendships have been pretty heavily impacted by his dad, more so than his brother, and I think the social impact of letting his team down wouldn’t help.

I think you did the right thing here.  Even without your complicated circumstances, these things happen.  My husband travels for work, so it's often just me.  I've told the kids that, to the best of my ability, they will never miss something because the other has to be somewhere.  But, I'll miss things.  Other friends do this too - they go to whatever thing a kid needs a ride to, and miss the one that a kid can carpool to.  Even with both of us, for that matter, we miss things - I only saw baseball kid pitch once this fall because on the days that he pitched I was at a karate tournament and taking younger to sing in church.  And, spouse missed the karate and singing.  But both kids got to do their thing.  I'm sorry you have the extra stress on top of what are already busy years for families with sporty or musical kids.  

[Katy]

How was the game?  Any more lashing out?

[Drama Llama]

25 minutes ago, Katy said:

How was the game?  Any more lashing out?

He didn't come to the game.  

He's not happy, but I haven't spoken to him.  I'll see him tomorrow at visitation.  

[Grace Hopper]

1 hour ago, Baseballandhockey said:

He didn't come to the game.  

He's not happy, but I haven't spoken to him.  I'll see him tomorrow at visitation.  

Well I’m sure you can expect to be “reprimanded” in some fashion. Might want to be sure another adult is present to document another outburst in case one occurs. 
 

I’m glad your son got to join his team. I’m sorry you have to prepare yourself for the fallout. Truly a no-win situation. Maybe come up with a very very short statement and don’t try to overexplain your decision. 

[Not_a_Number]

I'm finding this thread... painful, I think. I'm trying to sort out all the feelings I'm having here, so I can come back and explain and feel good about what I've had to say. I'm not contented with what I've said so far. 

In the meantime, I'll say that what I see is a family in deep, deep pain and I feel desperately sorry for everyone in this story. So sorry that I can barely stand to look with the eye of my imagination. 

[Terabith]

11 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm finding this thread... painful, I think. I'm trying to sort out all the feelings I'm having here, so I can come back and explain and feel good about what I've had to say. I'm not contented with what I've said so far. 

In the meantime, I'll say that what I see is a family in deep, deep pain and I feel desperately sorry for everyone in this story. So sorry that I can barely stand to look with the eye of my imagination. 

This isn’t a thread about you, though. I am sure @Baseballandhockey is sorry that the tragedy going on in her life is causing you pain, but how you feel isn’t really relevant here.  
 

I will admit to struggling to find much sympathy for her husband.  Of course I have sympathy for the loss of his son and career and his illness, but this really does seem to be making choices to be cruel and angry because he’s not getting his way.  

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Terabith said:

This isn’t a thread about you, though. I am sure @Baseballandhockey is sorry that the tragedy going on in her life is causing you pain, but how you feel isn’t really relevant here.

I'm not asking anyone to care about how I feel. I've just discovered that I can't talk authentically about anything but what's going on inside me. And speaking of that, this response feels hurtful. 

 

Just now, Terabith said:

I will admit to struggling to find much sympathy for her husband.

You and everyone else, which is part of what I'm finding painful here, I think. 

 

Just now, Terabith said:

 Of course I have sympathy for the loss of his son and career and his illness, but this really does seem to be making choices to be cruel and angry because he’s not getting his way.  

I'm not feeling any real sympathy for him from you. 

He sounds like a broken man who's lost everything in his life and broke down and is lashing out in his pain and causing untold damage as he does so. None of this feels like a "choice" to me. It sounds like immense pain, the likes of which I can't even imagine. 

Nor can I imagine @Baseballandhockey's pain. My goodness. So much pain.

[Rosie_0801]

28 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

He sounds like a broken man who's lost everything in his life and broke down and is lashing out in his pain and causing untold damage as he does so. None of this feels like a "choice" to me. It sounds like immense pain, the likes of which I can't even imagine. 

Nor can I imagine @Baseballandhockey's pain. My goodness. So much pain.

You're not supposed to be able to imagine it. Our brain will protect us from imagining this kind of thing as long as it can.
 

[Melissa Louise]

Jeez Louise, the man can take himself off to therapy and learn how to process his pain so it doesn't create more pain. That's his one job. 

My sympathy is reserved for the person struggling with the same pain, while working, raising the other children, and dealing with verbal abuse and other shenanigans from the spouse.

Having a mental illness is tough, but so is being around someone with a mental illness. 

No-one, not even a wife, is obliged to interpret abusive behaviour through a compassionate lens.

 

 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Rosie_0801 said:

You're not supposed to be able to imagine it. Our brains protect us from imagining this kind of thing as long as it can.

I'm sure you're right. I've been trying, because my heart aches for this family, and I wish I could help. And some of the lessons of my marriage have been burned into my hide, and they feel relevant, and I keep thinking there's something useful I could say. 

But I'm privileged enough not to have this experience. And it limits how much help I could give, because I haven't walked a mile in her shoes.  

[Grace Hopper]

48 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm finding this thread... painful, I think. I'm trying to sort out all the feelings I'm having here, so I can come back and explain and feel good about what I've had to say. I'm not contented with what I've said so far. 

In the meantime, I'll say that what I see is a family in deep, deep pain and I feel desperately sorry for everyone in this story. So sorry that I can barely stand to look with the eye of my imagination. 

If you haven’t already, you could go back and read the many many threads B&H has posted about her circumstances. She is living in survival mode right now. We - most in this forum - are here to support her. It’s not anti-Mr B&H. It’s pro-B&H.

 

 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

Jeez Louise, the man can take himself off to therapy and learn how to process his pain so it doesn't create more pain. That's his one job. 

I suppose I have the perspective of a sinner here, but I know that both I and DH have had real trouble learning how not to create more pain from our pain. I'll have to live with that. He'll have to live with that. We try hard. We sometimes fail. 

No one is required to feel sympathy for him. I just do. 

[Terabith]

27 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm not asking anyone to care about how I feel. I've just discovered that I can't talk authentically about anything but what's going on inside me. And speaking of that, this response feels hurtful. 

 

You and everyone else, which is part of what I'm finding painful here, I think. 

 

I'm not feeling any real sympathy for him from you. 

He sounds like a broken man who's lost everything in his life and broke down and is lashing out in his pain and causing untold damage as he does so. None of this feels like a "choice" to me. It sounds like immense pain, the likes of which I can't even imagine. 

Nor can I imagine @Baseballandhockey's pain. My goodness. So much pain.

You think I have no sympathy for a man who lost his son, his sanity, his career, and basically has lost his family?  I have IMMENSE sympathy for him.  It is a staggering, earth shaking amount of loss.
 

But loss does not excuse abuse.  He didn’t choose to get sick. But several times now, he has chosen to use his voice, his size, and his physicality to intimidate @Baseballandhockey and try to get his way.  Those actions weren’t the out of control results of illness; they were controlled choices to be cruel, and I have little sympathy for those actions or the consequences that follow.  
 

Also, even if his cruelty is out of his control, it does not matter.  He can’t be allowed to hurt or threaten @Baseballandhockey or their children.  

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Grace Hopper said:

If you haven’t already, you could go back and read the many many threads B&H has posted about her circumstances. She is living in survival mode right now. We - most in this forum - are here to support her. It’s not anti-Mr B&H. It’s pro-B&H.

I've read them. That's why I feel so, so, so sad for this family. I also remember what this family was like before, and it all feels heartbreakingly poignant. 

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

I suppose I have the perspective of a sinner here, but I know that both I and DH have had real trouble learning how not to create more pain from our pain. I'll have to live with that. He'll have to live with that. We try hard. We sometimes fail. 

No one is required to feel sympathy for him. I just do. 

OK. 

Is that helpful for the OP, I wonder? 

Maybe you could take your thoughts to a spin off thread for a general discussion on the topic of how we can learn not to create pain for others. 

[Grace Hopper]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

I've read them. That's why I feel so, so, so sad for this family. I also remember what this family was like before, and it all feels heartbreakingly poignant. 

Ok we can be heartbroken together. But please don’t chastise the rest of us for not being as heartbroken as you. This isn’t about you. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Terabith said:

You think I have no sympathy for a man who lost his son, his sanity, his career, and basically has lost his family?  I have IMMENSE sympathy for him.  It is a staggering, earth shaking amount of loss.

I'm not feeling much sympathy right now, no. I can't help what I see. 

 

Just now, Terabith said:

But loss does not excuse abuse.  

Nothing excuses abuse. 

 

Just now, Terabith said:

He didn’t choose to get sick. But several times now, he has chosen to use his voice, his size, and his physicality to intimidate @Baseballandhockey and try to get his way.  Those actions weren’t the out of control results of illness; they were controlled choices to be cruel, and I have little sympathy for those actions or the consequences that follow.

I disagree that these feel like choices. 

I don't have any sympathy for the actions, either.

 

Just now, Terabith said:

Also, even if his cruelty is out of his control, it does not matter.  He can’t be allowed to hurt or threaten @Baseballandhockey or their children.  

Of course. That's unrelated to whether I feel sorry for him. 

If anything, I feel sorrier for him because he's hurting the people he loves most. That's a weight he'll have to live with forever. 

[Rosie_0801]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm sure you're right. I've been trying, because my heart aches for this family, and I wish I could help. And some of the lessons of my marriage have been burned into my hide, and they feel relevant, and I keep thinking there's something useful I could say. 

But I'm privileged enough not to have this experience. And it limits how much help I could give, because I haven't walked a mile in her shoes.  

Don't try. Making yourself feel awful won't help anyone in this situation and will only add unhappiness to your own household.

[Melissa Louise]

Oh lordy, this is..not ok to me, this direction. 

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

OK. 

Is that helpful for the OP, I wonder? 

Maybe you could take your thoughts to a spin off thread for a general discussion on the topic of how we can learn not to create pain for others. 

If I thought it was unhelpful, I wouldn't have said it. I said it because I thought it might be. 

However, it's absolutely @Baseballandhockey's choice about whether she wants to hear things like this right now. If she wants me to go, she should tell me and I'll go. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

Oh lordy, this is..not ok to me, this direction. 

Yes, well, that's how I've felt about this whole thread. It all felt not OK to me. 

I know I'm in the minority here. But that's how it has felt. 

[Rosie_0801]

And, this is with my moderator hat on, stop telling people whether or not they are sympathetic.