Smaller Family

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

I doubt she is going to demand.  She has trained them to see the need, which unfortunately many just stick them in there and then don't think about them again. NOT ALL!! And yes, there has to be boundaries.

But I think we have missed something.  I took my daughter to see my husband's grandmothers from the time she was 6 until she was 10.  The boys, too, but they were in high school at that point and had classes and they just were not as flexible.  But my daughter and I went and spent several mornings a week in the memory care unit.  Sometimes we sang hymns with them.  Sometimes we played balloon volleyball.  Sometimes she would give a violin concert. Sometimes we just went around and visited.  Even though they weren't "all there," my daughter got so much wisdom from them.  Plus, there is something about seeing people as valuable just because they exist.  But so many stories all of them.  My life was enriched for the years we did that.  I think there is something inherently wrong with the young being shielded from old age. Yes it is hard. Yes, it is undignified sometimes. But that is life. Not sure if I am making any sense.  

But yes, my mom told me what you told me and what you said is pretty much what I told my kids.  However, I have a feeling, my example will serve as an example for them.  Because, to be honest, I treated my dad, my husband's grandmother, and now my mom the way I would like someone to treat me: with dignity, respect and love.  I hope they will do the same.  But again, their life. And again, I am NOT saying you need to be there 24/7 and have no boundaries. 

This is very much our ethos. We fully intend to model the behavior we want to see and demonstrate its value. Despite my issues with at least one of my parents, I haven't prohibited interaction and, in fact, encourage them to maintain it WITH BOUNDARIES as they are able. I want our kids to apply that to us too. Dignity, respect, and love. I hope, at the end of our lives, we've earned that level of care/interaction. We're not in a position to assess that tho. Despite our number of kids or those we will have had a hand in raising, this is the goal. It's not at all simple or easy to achieve.

[QueenCat]

40 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

The vast majority of my son's friends have decided not to have children, and many have even chose sterilization already. I suspect that there will continue to be significant population decline in the US now that immigration is so tight, and reproductive rights have been infringed in such a way that proper prenatal care is not a thing in some regions.

I'm not sure what shocks me more about this. That a doctor was actually willing to perform the surgery on someone so young. I know how hard it was for a few people I know to get tubal ligations at older ages than 20ish... think more like 30+. The other is that I'm stunned that these  young adults would share such things with you. I've been close to many of my kids friends and they are comfortable with me. But this kind of stuff is so personal. 

[Sneezyone]

11 minutes ago, QueenCat said:

I'm not sure what shocks me more about this. That a doctor was actually willing to perform the surgery on someone so young. I know how hard it was for a few people I know to get tubal ligations at older ages than 20ish... think more like 30+. The other is that I'm stunned that these  young adults would share such things with you. I've been close to many of my kids friends and they are comfortable with me. But this kind of stuff is so personal. 

The care they received represents PROGRESS and recognition that adults, regardless of their age, are equally empowered to decide whether or not they wish to have children. If they change their minds later, there are other paths to parenthood. My kids are very open about these things. We don't have taboos.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Catwoman]

13 minutes ago, QueenCat said:

I'm not sure what shocks me more about this. That a doctor was actually willing to perform the surgery on someone so young. I know how hard it was for a few people I know to get tubal ligations at older ages than 20ish... think more like 30+. The other is that I'm stunned that these  young adults would share such things with you. I've been close to many of my kids friends and they are comfortable with me. But this kind of stuff is so personal. 

I have to admit that I’m very shocked, as well! These young men and women must only be in their early 20s. 
 

Edited July 26, 2022 by Catwoman
Typo

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I have to admit that I’m very shocked, as well! These young men and women must only be in their early 20s. 
 

Do you think it's impossible to know what you want for your life at 20 or that some other adult should save you from yourself? That wasn't my experience.

[Carrie12345]

9 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I have to admit that I’m very shocked, as well! These young men and women must only be in their early 20s. 
 

I was “old enough” to commit to raising 4 whole people for a minimum of 18 years each in my 20s, so I can’t see why anyone shouldn’t be expected to be old enough to commit to… not.

[TexasProud]

5 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Do you think it's impossible to know what you want for your life at 20 or that some other adult should save you from yourself? That wasn't my experience.

Well, kind of.  Yeah, there are a lot of things I would go back and redo and I wish I had better counsel.  Yeah, I really wish I could have understood some stuff...  I wish I could have had my one right and perfect path.  So yeah, I needed adults.  But the truth was I was born old as my dad used to say and pretty much took care of myself from day one. 

[Catwoman]

11 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Do you think it's impossible to know what you want for your life at 20 or that some other adult should save you from yourself? That wasn't my experience.

I think you have misinterpreted both @QueenCat and me.

We are shocked for two reasons. First, we are shocked that multiple young adult friends of Faith’s sons (probably in their early 20s at most) have all had permanent sterilization surgery. That’s not a common thing! Also, we were surprised that they discussed it with Faith, because it’s a pretty private decision and not something most of us would probably discuss with a friend’s mom. 

Second, we were shocked that it was apparently easy for these young adults to find doctors who were willing to perform those surgeries on such young people, when it’s often very difficult for people who are considerably older to get the same surgeries without serious medical reasons. We didn’t say it was bad that doctors would do it. We were just surprised that they would.

And when I think about it, I’m also wondering how these young people afforded to pay for the surgeries, because their medical insurance certainly wasn’t going to cover it just because these people decided they didn’t want to have children.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Catwoman

[Sneezyone]

Just now, TexasProud said:

Well, kind of.  Yeah, there are a lot of things I would go back and redo and I wish I had better counsel.  Yeah, I really wish I could have understood some stuff...  I wish I could have had my one right and perfect path.  So yeah, I needed adults.  But the truth was I was born old as my dad used to say and pretty much took care of myself from day one. 

I managed myself too and never had good guidance. Despite the enhanced care I have given the kids within my sphere of influence, as adults they get to make their own choices (both good and bad). I deeply resented people infantilizing me and I do not want medical practitioners to see that as their role. Rather, we need to ACTIVELY inform youth/young adults about their options and support them in making their choices, including sterilization.

[regentrude]

3 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I was “old enough” to commit to raising 4 whole people for a minimum of 18 years each in my 20s, so I can’t see why anyone shouldn’t be expected to be old enough to commit to… not.

Yup. The damage is certainly greater and affects more people if somebody decides later that having kids was a mistake  - yet nobody prevents young people from procreating.

[QueenCat]

13 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

The care they received represents PROGRESS and recognition that adults, regardless of their age, are equally empowered to decide whether or not they wish to have children. If they change their minds later, there are other paths to parenthood. My kids are very open about these things. We don't have taboos.

I didn't say I have taboos..... my kids are open with me. Their friends aren't going to get quite that personal with me, even though we are close. I was simply saying that I was surprised that they were able to get it done. 

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Catwoman said:

I think you have misinterpreted both @QueenCat and me.

We are shocked for two reasons. First, we are shocked that multiple young adult friends of Faith’s sons (probably in their early 20s at most) have all had permanent sterilization surgery. That’s not a common thing! Also, we were surprised that they discussed it with Faith, because it’s a pretty private decision and not something most of us would probably discuss with a friend’s mom. 

Second, we were shocked that it was apparently easy for these young adults to find doctors who were willing to perform those surgeries on such young people, when it’s often very difficult for people who are considerably older to get the same surgeries without serious medical reasons. 

And when I think about it, I’m also wondering how these young people afforded to pay for the surgeries, because their medical insurance certainly wasn’t going to cover it.

It's not common because medical professionals have largely been trained to disbelieve adults when they express this desire and refuse the surgery, not because people don't want it. I've seen MULTIPLE requests lately from adults under 30 who've been denied. I agree that it's surprising to find willing doctors but not if you/your circle knows where to look or who to contact. The surgeries are covered by insurance, even military insurance, if you find the right provider.

[regentrude]

2 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

And when I think about it, I’m also wondering how these young people afforded to pay for the surgeries, because their medical insurance certainly wasn’t going to cover it.

the < 1k for a vasectomy are peanuts compared to what birthing, let alone raising, a kid costs.

[Catwoman]

2 minutes ago, QueenCat said:

I didn't say I have taboos..... my kids are open with me. Their friends aren't going to get quite that personal with me, even though we are close. I was simply saying that I was surprised that they were able to get it done. 

Yes, exactly.

[Elizabeth86]

4 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

re "encouraging" adult offspring to have smaller / larger / any number of children

I really can't imagine "encouraging" my young adult offspring to not-have children, or to have lots of children, or exactly three children as I did, or anything of the sort, really.

It's their choice, not mine. 

Exactly!! I’d be super annoyed had my mom given me he opinion about how many kids I should have. My parents just let me live my life. So wild parents these days try to shape their children like this.

[Catwoman]

8 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

It's not common because medical professionals have largely been trained to disbelieve adults when they express this desire and refuse the surgery, not because people don't want it. I've seen MULTIPLE requests lately from adults under 30 who've been denied. I agree that it's surprising to find willing doctors but not if you/your circle knows where to look or who to contact. The surgeries are covered by insurance, even military insurance, if you find the right provider.

Without a legitimate medical reason, I doubt most insurance companies would pay for this kind of purely elective surgery. Maybe it’s different in the military, though — I have no experience with that at all.

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Catwoman said:

Without a legitimate medical reason, I doubt most insurance companies would pay for this kind of purely elective surgery. Maybe it’s different in the military, though — I have no experience with that at all.

And yet, they do. Regularly and routinely.

[Clarita]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

So you made it clear to your kids that they will be limited in their job options because you need them to visit you.

I am grateful that my parents never laid that guilt trip on me. Emigration is hard enough already.

I live across an ocean from all the members of my blood family. I still visit them both in-person and online. I still need them and they still need me. 

They are not in my debt. I guess they can just leave me and never speak to me again, but you know my mental health would be in the dumps if that happen. We have a retirement plan and we've tried to plan so hopefully we don't have to be dependent on our kids for that piece. I've been there done that with just my husband and I; we had kids because we need that noise and relationship in our lives. They don't need to be at my beck and call but they are needed.

21 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Do you think it's impossible to know what you want for your life at 20 or that some other adult should save you from yourself? That wasn't my experience.

About all I had figured out back then was a career. I'm actually very grateful for the counsel of my elders both ones I agreed with and ones I didn't. Sometimes those that I didn't agree with brought points of view that I may not have considered. My mom's opinion on children was 0 and she did let me know. Clearly I can appreciate her 2 cents without following through on it.

[Catwoman]

5 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

And yet, they do. Regularly and routinely.

Thanks — I wasn’t aware of that. I know that when I was younger, that wasn’t the case, and I’m glad to hear that things have changed. 

[TexasProud]

Thanks guys.  You helped me see some things, but now for my mental health I need to bow out.  Carry on if you desire.

[prairiewindmomma]

12 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I think you have misinterpreted both @QueenCat and me.

We are shocked for two reasons. First, we are shocked that multiple young adult friends of Faith’s sons (probably in their early 20s at most) have all had permanent sterilization surgery. That’s not a common thing! Also, we were surprised that they discussed it with Faith, because it’s a pretty private decision and not something most of us would probably discuss with a friend’s mom. 

Second, we were shocked that it was apparently easy for these young adults to find doctors who were willing to perform those surgeries on such young people, when it’s often very difficult for people who are considerably older to get the same surgeries without serious medical reasons. We didn’t say it was bad that doctors would do it. We were just surprised that they would.

And when I think about it, I’m also wondering how these young people afforded to pay for the surgeries, because their medical insurance certainly wasn’t going to cover it just because these people decided they didn’t want to have children.

I think it's becoming much more common because many of my unmarried cousins in their 20s and 30s have had vasectomies and thus a conscious choice not to procreate also. A vasectomy out of pocket is about $700 here.

While some of them have made family limiting choices out of environmental or ethical reasons, some have made that out of financial ones also.  They cannot take on formula/diaper/daycare costs when they are barely making their own rent. My cousin's wife (who had breast cancer and therefore cannot breastfeed) is currently paying $800/month for formula and $3600/month for part time daycare for their two kids. It is not cheaper for her to stay home in the long run, and she can't afford to step out of the working/promotion lineup for a few years.

A lot of older (boomer generation) people cannot wrap their brains around how much life has changed from their own experiences to what Gen Z is facing....especially financially. Nor do they believe in climate change and how it is impacting life (and I mean impacting life now) and how it will impact it in the future.

 

[Catwoman]

24 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Well, kind of.  Yeah, there are a lot of things I would go back and redo and I wish I had better counsel.  Yeah, I really wish I could have understood some stuff...  I wish I could have had my one right and perfect path.  So yeah, I needed adults.  But the truth was I was born old as my dad used to say and pretty much took care of myself from day one. 

I agree. I mean, obviously, if a young adult wants to have permanent sterilization surgery, they should be allowed to do it, but it’s not something I would advise my own kid to do.

 I don’t care whether or not my ds22 has kids, but I would hope he would keep his options open for a while, in case he changed his mind when he got older. I never wanted kids until I was in my mid-30s, so if I had gotten my tubes tied at 20, that would have been a huge regret for me. 

People change a lot between the ages of 20 and 40, so although I support their right to do what they want with their own bodies, if anyone asked me,  I would still advise most young adults to use other forms of birth control for at least a few more years, to be sure they wouldn’t regret their decision later on. 

[Lady Florida.]

My family has always been on the small side at least as far back as my grandparents.. I suppose city people didn't need a large number of children historically the way country folks did. My parents had 2 siblings each and of those aunts and uncles (plus my parents) one set had 5 children. The others had 3 or less and one had no children. Dh is one of 4, his father was an only child, and his mother was one of 3. 

I think the idea that all families were large in the past isn't necessarily true. What is true is that U.S. population growth has slowed down significantly but still isn't in the negative. As far as I know ds hopes to have children someday. Dss has 3 and is finished.

[Sneezyone]

19 minutes ago, Clarita said:

About all I had figured out back then was a career. I'm actually very grateful for the counsel of my elders both ones I agreed with and ones I didn't. Sometimes those that I didn't agree with brought points of view that I may not have considered. My mom's opinion on children was 0 and she did let me know. Clearly I can appreciate her 2 cents without following through on it.

I would no more suggest that you be swayed to NOT have children than that my kiddo be swayed TO have children. It's a personal choice that it is none of my business. EVER.

[Sneezyone]

16 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

A lot of older (boomer generation) people cannot wrap their brains around how much life has changed from their own experiences to what Gen Z is facing....especially financially. Nor do they believe in climate change and how it is impacting life (and I mean impacting life now) and how it will impact it in the future.

 

THIS!!!!!

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

32 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Without a legitimate medical reason, I doubt most insurance companies would pay for this kind of purely elective surgery. Maybe it’s different in the military, though — I have no experience with that at all.

DH’s vasectomy was not covered as it was considered elective. I truly don’t remember what we paid though.

I was mid 30s giving birth to my third child go c section and the OB still did not want to tie my tubes.  In fact there is no medical documentation that he actually did so, despite me signing the consents and making it clear I Wanted it done.

I was one who adamantly did not want kids, even talking about a tubal in my early 20s but could not find an OB interested in doing it. I never got far enough to check on insurance.  Even when we married I was clear I didn’t want kids. Then we’d been married about five months and suddenly out of nowhere I wanted a baby with my husband.  Literally, I woke up one day and said I’ve changed my mind.  DH was content and happy with or without kids, and we weren’t sure the fertility treatments would work, but here we are now lol.

I truly think I’d have been as happy and content either way as well.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Mrs Tiggywinkle

[Carrie12345]

13 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I agree. I mean, obviously, if a young adult wants to have permanent sterilization surgery, they should be allowed to do it, but it’s not something I would advise my own kid to do.

 I don’t care whether or not my ds22 has kids, but I would hope he would keep his options open for a while, in case he changed his mind when he got older. I never wanted kids until I was in my mid-30s, so if I had gotten my tubes tied at 20, that would have been a huge regret for me. 

People change a lot between the ages of 20 and 40, so although I support their right to do what they want with their own bodies, if anyone asked me,  I would still advise most young adults to use other forms of birth control for at least a few more years, to be sure they wouldn’t regret their decision later on. 

I think there is/will be a large increase specifically because birth control isn’t guaranteed to be effective while abortion is simultaneously becoming even more difficult to access.  Again, it’s worse to have babies you don’t want than to not have babies. (For the hypothetical babies who will grow up, at the very least.))
And I don’t think younger people are confident that sterilization is always going to be available to them in the future. Or birth control.

[Carrie12345]

Just now, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

DH’s vasectomy was not covered as it was considered elective. I truly don’t remember what we paid though.

I was mid 30s giving birth to my third child go c section and the OB still did not want to tie my tubes.  In fact there is no medical documentation that he actually did so, despite me signing the consents and making it clear I Wanted it done.

Dh’s was covered, but “covered” can mean anywhere from $0 to $10,000 if you think about it. I don’t remember what it cost us.  Probably a lot, since it was the beginning of the calendar year.

[Lecka]

My husband’s was covered easily in the military when he was 24 and had 3 kids.  He said everyone was telling him he was making a good decision (the doctor, nurses, receptionists, etc).  

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

DH’s vasectomy was not covered as it was considered elective. I truly don’t remember what we paid though.

I was mid 30s giving birth to my third child go c section and the OB still did not want to tie my tubes.  In fact there is no medical documentation that he actually did so, despite me signing the consents and making it clear I Wanted it done.

Year pls? I have had zero issue referring 20-30-something folks to local providers who will do it without issue. Oddly, these are largely people who have had issues with military providers (who can do it for free but because of personal convictions refuse to do so). BC was available for free with our insurance but we paid out of pocket to ensure both privacy and no *provider* harassment. The protester harassment was robust. Are there protesters outside urology clinics?

Edited July 26, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

4 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Year pls? I have had zero issue referring 20-30-something folks to local providers who will do it without issue. Oddly, these are largely people who have had issues with military providers (who can do it for free but because of personal convictions refuse to do so).

It was 2015.  His argument was that I was giving birth to a preemie who might not make it and I might want another pregnancy. I most definitely did not.  I wanted more children but it was/is a very very bad idea physically.
I’ve heard from multiple other women that he was sketchy about tubals with them too and at least one woman I know has a pregnancy following a tubal he performed in her.

He’s retired now. He is active in local Democrat and pro choice organizations, so I don’t think it was some birth control is a sin thinking. It was just weird.

Childfree Reddit used to have a list of providers throughout the country who will perform sterilizations on younger, childless people. It may be a good resource for you to pass on if needed.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Mrs Tiggywinkle

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

It was 2015.  His argument was that I was giving birth to a preemie who might not make it and I might want another pregnancy. I most definitely did not.  I’ve heard from multiple other women that he was sketchy about tubals with them too and at least one woman I know has a pregnancy following a tubal he performed in her.

He’s retired now. He is active in local Democrat and pro choice organizations, so I don’t think it was some birth control is a sin thinking. It was just weird.

I don't see it as a political thing. I see it as a misogyny thing. No political party has a lock in infantilizing women and young adults.

[SKL]

Yeah I don't think very young adults' feelings about kids are reliable for how they will feel throughout the next 20-30 years.  I know too many people who changed their minds about that.  In fact, I'm not sure I know any who didn't change their minds one way or the other.

I always advise my kids to keep their options open, whether we're talking about education/career, family, or whatever.

I don't have strong feelings about whether or not doctors should be allowed to do "permanent" procedures to prevent reproduction.  I think it's a bad idea for most young people and would never recommend it unless there were serious extenuating circumstances.

And yeah, I hope my kids are around when I am too old to do things that need done.  And it will be nice if my kids have someone around in their old age too.  But that's up to them.

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

Yeah I don't think very young adults' feelings about kids are reliable for how they will feel throughout the next 20-30 years.  I know too many people who changed their minds about that.  In fact, I'm not sure I know any who didn't change their minds one way or the other.

I always advise my kids to keep their options open, whether we're talking about education/career, family, or whatever.

I don't have strong feelings about whether or not doctors should be allowed to do "permanent" procedures to prevent reproduction.  I think it's a bad idea for most young people and would never recommend it unless there were serious extenuating circumstances.

And this is why women and men are availing themselves of these options ASAP. If this opinion becomes the legislated standard, they're doomed.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Arcadia]

2 hours ago, Clarita said:

 

I volunteered at a convalescent home. I raise my kids so they know they need to visit me. They need me to be a part of their lives and I need them to be a part of mine.

My parents are financially comfortable but they can’t pay for all our expenses so we are in different countries. My cousins’ children have also migrated all over the globe for work. 

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

So you made it clear to your kids that they will be limited in their job options because you need them to visit you.

I am grateful that my parents never laid that guilt trip on me. Emigration is hard enough already.

I agree with you. I am grateful my parents not only were supportive, they paid their own airfares just to come over and help me babysit for months at a time. My in-laws are a different story altogether.

I know many who attended colleges away from home and they have settled near their alma mater.

[SKL]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

And this is why women and men need to and are availing themselves of these options ASAP. If this opinion becomes the legislated standard, they're doomed.

1) Not sure how you got from "I think it's a bad idea" to "legislated standard."

2) "Doomed" is a bit dramatic IMO.

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

Do you think it's impossible to know what you want for your life at 20 or that some other adult should save you from yourself? That wasn't my experience.

I actually had reason to look this up earlier this week based on a stat I read in an article that piqued my interest.  It appears the majority of people do not regret being sterilized, but the younger they are at the time of sterilization the higher the percentage of regret and it’s actually quite significant for women sterilized before 30–about 25% regret having done it.  Of course, that means 75% do not regret.

1 hour ago, Catwoman said:

And when I think about it, I’m also wondering how these young people afforded to pay for the surgeries, because their medical insurance certainly wasn’t going to cover it just because these people decided they didn’t want to have children.

 

50 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Without a legitimate medical reason, I doubt most insurance companies would pay for this kind of purely elective surgery. Maybe it’s different in the military, though — I have no experience with that at all.

I have very recent experience that it can be a BIG uphill battle to have insurance cover it (and while many men may be able to do it out of pocket, the surgery is much more expensive for women and many places won’t do it if it’s not being covered.) In the very recent experience I’m familiar with, insurance very definitely required there to be a medical indication for a young person to have the surgery. Although it is interesting, since a vasectomy is certainly a lot cheaper for an insurance company than paying for pregnancy and childbirth and then all the medical care for a whole new person (maybe they’re thinking the expense of infertility treatment or reversal if someone has it young??). 

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, KSera said:

I actually had reason to look this up earlier this week based on a stat I read in an article that piqued my interest.  It appears the majority of people do not regret being sterilized, but the younger they are at the time of sterilization the higher the percentage of regret and it’s actually quite significant for women sterilized before 30–about 25% regret having done it.  Of course, that means 75% do not regret.

 

I have very recent experience that it can be a BIG uphill battle to have insurance cover it (and while many men may be able to do it out of pocket, the surgery is much more expensive for women and many places won’t do it if it’s not being covered.) In the very recent experience I’m familiar with, insurance very definitely required there to be a medical indication for a young person to have the surgery. Although it is interesting, since a vasectomy is certainly a lot cheaper for an insurance company than paying for pregnancy and childbirth and then all the medical care for a whole new person (maybe they’re thinking the expense of infertility treatment or reversal if someone has it young??). 

Aaaannd, 25% is LOW. Significant, yes. LOW, also yes. I prefer to adequately inform and council adults, not impose prohibitions on either a provider, insurance, or legislative level. That's where we are tho. The truth is sterilization is COVERED by most insurance. The barrier isn't insurance. It's specific providers and their personal/religious beliefs.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Carrie12345]

5 minutes ago, KSera said:

I actually had reason to look this up earlier this week based on a stat I read in an article that piqued my interest.  It appears the majority of people do not regret being sterilized, but the younger they are at the time of sterilization the higher the percentage of regret and it’s actually quite significant for women sterilized before 30–about 25% regret having done it.  Of course, that means 75% do not regret.

Did they happen to go into detail, or was it black and white?

At various times, I’ve experienced feelings of regret over it, yet I would not go back and change it.   
(We WERE over 30, just for the record.)

[SKL]

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Aaaannd, 25% is LOW. Significant, yes. LOW, also yes. I prefer to adequately inform and council adults, not impose prohibitions on either a provider, insurance, or legislative level. That's where we are tho.

That's 25% of people under 30 who had it done.  This automatically excludes everyone who was not allowed to get it done due to their age.  If there were no restrictions, the 25% who regret might be a lot higher.

As for the 75%, we don't know if these are people who were closer to 30 than 20, who already had multiple kids, or who had medical reasons for doing it.

I know someone who had her tubes tied upon giving birth to her 3rd child on her 19th birthday.  Sounds like a no brainer.  About 15 years later, she was married to a different man and wanted a child with him.  She had a reversal surgery.  Luckily, she was able to conceive her 4th child.

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

That's 25% of people under 30 who had it done.  This automatically excludes everyone who was not allowed to get it done due to their age.  If there were no restrictions, the 25% who regret might be a lot higher.

As for the 75%, we don't know if these are people who were closer to 30 than 20, who already had multiple kids, or who had medical reasons for doing it.

I know someone who had her tubes tied upon giving birth to her 3rd child on her 19th birthday.  Sounds like a no brainer.  About 15 years later, she was married to a different man and wanted a child with him.  She had a reversal surgery.  Luckily, she was able to conceive her 4th child.

Good for her. She had choices. I'm glad her provider a) respected her initial choice and b) supported her subsequent one. Is your desire that she be denied agency? At what point should her opinion/preference be honored? Adults are allowed to make choices, even ones that are not good for them.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Sneezyone

[SKL]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

Good for her. She had choices. I'm glad her provider respected her initial choice and b) supported her subsequent one. Is your desire that she be denied agency? At what point should her opinion/preferebce be honored?

I think you can get my opinion from my previous post stating my opinion.

[Sneezyone]

Just now, SKL said:

I think you can get my opinion from my previous post stating my opinion.

I do, which is why I am questioning your belief in ADULT agency and the concept of legislating based on beliefs such as yours. 

[SKL]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

I do, which is why I am questioning your belief in ADULT agency and the concept of legislating based on beliefs such as yours. 

Again, no idea where you found "legislating" anywhere in my statement of opinion.

[Arcadia]

My paternal grandma had 9 kids because traditional Chinese culture dictates having as many sons as possible. My maternal grandma has 5 kids (one adopted) because she is financially comfortable and don’t care what people say about having only one son. Her neighbor could not afford her daughter and ask my grandma to adopt.

My parents generation (born around WW2 era) were also supposed to have at least one son but are not expected to have many sons so they have smaller families. 
My generation (born in 60s to 70s) aim for at most 3 due to financial reasons. My brother (born in 80s) aim for one due to financial reasons. 
My maternal side is already small but my paternal side purposely have less kids because of finances and generational wealth. My mom passed recently and left my brother and I some cash equally. Dividing by more kids would mean less per child. Inheritance from my maternal grandparents help pay off my parents mortgage. Inheritance from my paternal grandparents wasn’t much in comparison. 
My teens have often said they wish they were only child because of financial reasons. They have a good relationship with each other so far. However they are not keen on marrying or having more than one child if they do. If DS17 was an only, my husband would have let him apply to private universities last year instead of allowing this year after he was rejected from all the public universities he applied to. My brother having an only child means I can host his daughter when she graduated high school if she wants to come to the states for college. We don’t have room to host more than one. 

[KSera]

19 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

The truth is sterilization is COVERED by most insurance. The barrier isn't insurance. It's specific providers and their personal/religious beliefs.

[quote removed]

Edited July 26, 2022 by KSera

[Sneezyone]

Just now, SKL said:

Again, no idea where you found "legislating" anywhere in my statement of opinion.

I didn't. I extrapolated (and own that) b/c I assume you're a voter. If you're not, you can say so and I'll retract that part of my commentary.

[Sneezyone]

Just now, KSera said:

 

I am sorry that happened to you. Mine was fully covered.

[SKL]

I would note that "legislation" isn't the only or main thing causing doctors to say no to certain requested procedures.

I've met tons of push-back from medical practices that have nothing to do with "legislation."  And I'm not trying to do anything radical.

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, SKL said:

I would note that "legislation" isn't the only or main thing causing doctors to say no to certain requested procedures.

I've met tons of push-back from medical practices that have nothing to do with "legislation."  And I'm not trying to do anything radical.

Misogyny, white Christian nationalism and pro-baby zeitgeist is the primary reason for anti-reproductive choice policy. That's a taboo topic tho. All babies, all the time. Anyone who's DONE with that stage is a demon.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Sneezyone