s/o Cheating: student support

[regentrude]

In the cheating thread, posts by @skimomma and @Clemsondana brought up difficulties students have navigating the college environment. So here's a spin-off to brainstorm ways to help students navigate the logistics of the transition.
I am redesigning the freshman seminar for my department, a one credit course for incoming students that meets for 50 minutes a week. The major component will be faculty presentations; I will assign one oral presentation and one short writing assignment. In addition, I want to address campus resources and assign a variety of short tasks that familiarize the students with the resources and Canvas (without it being too didactic). Within the severe time constraints, I have the following things in mind:

• How use Canvas modules, syllabus, calendar. Customize Canvas notifications.
• Introduce yourself to department secretary and have picture taken
• How to send email to faculty. Send me an email with questions you want me to address this semester.
• How curriculum is structured. How to run a degree audit. Identify some classes you need to take in the coming semester, enter answers in Canvas as text input assignment
• How to navigate schedule planner. Sign up for advising week appointment through google sheet.
• How to find academic assistance. Tutoring Center, help sessions. Attend one in a class you take, give brief report.
• Meet with advisor for 4-week check-in. This is to normalize meeting with advisor and lower barriers.
• Student Well-being. Counseling resources. Disability support. Testing center.
• First year research opportunities. Summer research. Career Fair. REU. Grad school. Path to academic position.
• Department student organizations.
• Develop connection among students. Have them create a way to connect as a class - discord server, groupme, their choice.
• something tbd so they have to scan a document and upload it to Canvas as a pdf

 I have room for 2-3 more short tasks. Hit me with your best suggestions for a group of freshmen with varying backgrounds (some may be first gen, some have extensive college credit) that are not just busywork, are not overly time-consuming, and address useful skills for college success.

@maize: you wrote about your EF struggles. What could your college faculty have done to better help?

ETA: All incoming students have a campus orientation. There is extra support for first generation students. This is specifically for majors in my department.

Edited June 3, 2022 by regentrude

[skimomma]

Our STEM majors often have to do a lot of electronic processing before submission, ironically much more so than arts and sciences majors.  Some things my students struggled with that might be much reduced after zooming during Covid....some of which might be better addressed as an open Canvas course that any student in your department could access videos on demand if/when an issue arises.

How to save files in different formats, including zip/unzip

How to merge files as PDFs

How to use campus printers, in general and in large format

How to share Google docs for collaborative writing/editing

How to navigate the campus software center

How to use a computer lab (I wish I were kidding.....)

How to find/recover lost files

How to video/audio record a presentation

How to use a thumb drive

How to document a problem (screen shot, for instance) when sending a technology problem to an instructor/TA

I could go on and on.  Most students will know most/all of these but some might be lacking all!  I am impressed the hoops some students will jump through to avoid asking for help when they don't know how to do one of these things.

 

[skimomma]

We also have a big emphasis in our freshman engineering classes on how to handle team dynamics.  How to set up your team expectations before work begins, what to do when there is a problem team member(s), how and when to properly communicate problem team dynamics to an instructor, etc.....  

[Clemsondana]

I'll ponder more, but off the top of my head, something about figuring out what approaches to take and what resources to use to learn the material?  Like, how do you know you've mastered what you need learn in a class?

Example - when we study genetics, I tell my students to switch gears.  Instead of thinking in pathways, they'll need to learn some vocab and a few concepts and then treat the section like a math class.  From my own experience in college - I nearly failed freshman chemistry (I ended up with a B, my now-husband taught me an entire semester of chem in 3 days).  The reason - it was science, and I studied for it the same way that I studied for biology, which I was doing great at.  But, the tests weren't over definitions and explanations, they were over math like titrations, which I wasn't practicing.  I needed to treat it like a math class and quit reading the textbook.  I would have been ready for a test when I could solve a problem, not when I could define an ionic bond.  

You might also/instead include something about how active learning looks in your, or different, disciplines.  Ask them what they need to do to understand the material.  How does it differ for different classes?  When they get a grade, do they use that as feedback to refine their approach?  I ask this on the quiz after each test - Was the test harder or easier than you expected?  Why?  Will you change how you prepare as a result?  it seems to help them to reflect on what is working and what isn't, and as they move forward they need to do that, unprompted.  Maybe answer those questions across a couple of classes for a week or 2 and see if they see patterns.  

This isn't an entire point, but since you're STEMy, we all need to join forces to say 'Please do the pre-lab reading/exercises.'  I've started asking my high schoolers to define a few terms that I haven't covered (they are in the book or easily searchable) and it's generated pushback even though it's just on homework.  I'm trying to introduce them to the idea of doing some prep without having it be explicitly taught yet, and if my students aren't prepared to do it then I'm guessing others aren't, either.  

In the 'how to send email to faculty' part, or with faculty interactions in general, mention tone.  I mostly get 'Could you help with?' but ones that say 'You need to explain' don't leave a great impression.  

In the 'how to get help' remember office hours and study groups.  If students can find a couple of people  to work with, it can help with academics but also with figuring out resources.  I'm sure they use group chats and such, but in-person study groups can be helpful!  

Not just who to ask for help, but that they need to ask for help.  Momentary discomfort is preferable to failing a class.  You'll likely never see the person monitoring the computer lab again - you're one of the 100 people they saw that night.  No matter how goofy your question, your prof has heard weirder.  TAs can be great - they are often young enough to still remember being lost.  Talk to them during the times you are sitting around in labs - it's not like they have somewhere else to be.  

[Clemsondana]

Not a task or a point by itself, but something about being realistic about when to push on, when to drop a class.  Tell them about withdrawals and incompletes - if they get the plague in the last 2 weeks, tell somebody!  Also, no magical thinking - don't do what we saw on the other thread and think that you can pass by doing nothing all semester and then doing one extra credit assignment.  

[Bootsie]

I find that students often struggle with basic organizational skills.  I would try having them do a sample week's calendar--blocking out class times, allocating time to review notes (stressing to students how much time they should be spending outside of the class with the material each week), seeing where there is time in their schedules to work on a class for an hour between other projects, seeing if they are allocating enough time to sleep, exercise, and socializing (or too much), etc.

I would also talk to them about setting up a system for maintain files and coursework.  I know that much is done on a computer these days but there are some classes for which that doesn't work well and some student for whom that doesn't work well.  Where will they keep their class notes, returned exams, class handouts, etc.  Even if they submit homework via computer, in a math-based class there is often work on paper that must be done.  I have students come in to ask a question about a problem and the load up their computer, but then they have a picture of something on their phone, and something written on a piece of paper somewhere, and then a sticky note at the bottom of their backpack--and maybe even a number written on their wrist--I am so confused by the time they get all of the pieces of their question together 

[Clemsondana]

If you have students who are really struggling, challenge them to take a question that they are completely clueless about and write something down.  I had a prof, the department head at the time, who always kept his office hours and would have a line of us some days.  He wouldn't help unless you could show him what you had written down.  I remember the first time that I asked for help and he said 'Write something down - draw it' and the act of doing that got me most of the way to the answer.  I've never forgotten that.  But, even if it doesn't work, it helps the instructor see what direction you were trying to go and lets them see if you're truly lost, if you have a misconception, or if you just can't add.  I sometimes think that, in a computer era, students have lost the trick of doodling - drawing a cell or atom or structure and playing around with it. 

Also, when students work on writing an email to an instructor, have them be very specific.  I sometimes answer email from my phone at the ball field, but only if I can figure out what they need.  If they say 'I'm lost on number 7 on last week's homework' there's not much that I can do until I'm in front of a computer.  If they say 'I don't understand the difference between sister chromatids and homologous chromosomes' then I can answer that immediately.  So...maybe have them practice asking precise questions?  Learning to specifically identify the problem is useful in learning and in research.  🙂  

Have them check on times - when are assignments due (end of the day, midnight), what time does the lab with the printer close, when is the building locked, when does the main dept office or library close, etc.  Students sometimes assume that if the library is still open then so is the computer lab, or that the faculty offices are accessible as long as the building is open, etc.  One of my co-op students was also doing a DE class and was startled to lose points because she turned something in late - it was due at midnight and she turned it in the next morning.  I don't take off as long as it's in before I start grading, but other instructors can have a different policy.  

If you can, when looking at paths to an academic position, also have them look at paths to other jobs, or other places that hire employees with their degree.  Very few of the students will likely wind up as faculty.  Looking at other career paths could help them to choose a minor or which science electives to pursue.  Maybe a minor in education for potential teachers, or taking some computer science classes, or management classes if they think they might end up in industry.  I'm talking with my high schooler now about what options they are considering if they earn the AP and DE that they'll likely have.  They think that rather than graduate faster, they want to add more skills, which is what made me think about encouraging resume-building coursework.  

[maize]

Maybe give them an assignment to create a timeline of some kind--the format could be flexible; calendar, planner, Google document--outlining ALL the deadlines, quizzes and tests they have information for for ALL their classes for the entire semester (with a reminder to make changes as those come up). Go through each syllabus and Canvas class and put everything in one place.

Then make a plan for how they are going to get things done. If there are larger assignments, how and when are they going to start working on them? Can they break them down into smaller chunks and give themselves personal deadlines? Are there particular weeks that look exceptionally busy, where maybe they need to plan to get something done early so they don't crash trying to do it all at once? Make a plan to review for exams on a continuing basis rather than trying to cram the night before.

Can they set aside a consistent time every week to review the week ahead and plan their work? Maybe consider finding an accountability partner to check in with?

Having a plan doesn't guarantee it will be followed, but not having a plan guarantees it won't. Revisit their plan later in the semester to see how it is going.

I am terrible at piecing together the big picture from all the little details, and when the details seem overwhelming my brain just skitters away. Right now I'm taking two classes online--one on tax preparation, one in project management. Just two classes feels to me like a million moving parts. I find Canvas horrible to navigate, it's like every time I go in I have to figure out all over again where lectures are and where assignments are. And each class also has external websites for online textbooks, tax preparation practice, etc.

I absolutely have to make a written document for myself with what needs to be done and with links to any external things. I need everything in one place and in a format that makes sense to me.

 

[Shelydon]

I would have students attend a tutoring session as part of the class.  They can choose writing or math, but must attend one and have the tutor sign off.  History of the university

Defining plagiarism  and cheating.  Some students really don't know what this really is.

Study skills and information about how long students should generally study to get work completed

[BusyMom5]

My DD has found her online calendar vital to getting everything done on time.  She makes checklists for each class, puts in all the games,  dances, etc.  I think a class on organizing your time would be very beneficial.

I didn't realize how much stuff was online,  with so many different providers.  One semester my DD had MyMathLab (Math), Cengage (English), Connect (McGraw Hill- Accounting), and Globalyceum (History).  Some teachers interacted through Blackboard, others through the text provider.  Some classes would have assignments due in both BB and the online text- or any mix really.  It was a LOT to keep track of.  I don't know how kids with EF issues keep track of it all- I helped mine keep it in order the first few semesters.  I wish schools would try to streamline how classes or presented at least a little bit, bc all these providers- each is a different login.  With our bad internet it would take 10 minutes just to figure our what an assignment was bc of all the logging in and clicking to the right section (no, we don't have unlimited high speed internet).  Anyway, i think i class on keeping this all straight would probably help a lot of students. 

Last thing- my DD has suddenly  "found" online textbook resources mid-semester!  The books are all so different,  some can be harder to navigate.  Maybe talk about taking time to investigate all the resources available for each online text.  If its a physical text, you can flip through and find glossary, maps,  indexes, etc.  Just spending an hour going through all the options to click can sometimes find resources you can use to study.  Or looking on YT for a review or tutorial for each online text? 

 

[teachermom2834]

Since we were talking about cheating- I would make sure they really understand what cheating is. Obviously it has become so common I really don't think some students even think twice about it. It's just how they go about completing their assignments. I think sometimes they truly don't know what is okay to lift from the internet and what is not (and in their defense I think this is can be confusing). What assignments is it generally okay to work together, etc. 

Review the university policies and consequences for violations but also their own rights and appeal process. Sometimes students might be falsely accused or caught up with classmates in a situation and they should know what their rights are as far as dealing with accusations and coming back from it. 

 

[regentrude]

Thanks, everyone, for your good suggestions. I will see how much I can incorporate.

[elegantlion]

How to properly format any written work. In my discipline -it's essays. We have sample essays on Canvas, we have guidelines on the assignments itself, but some never review that much less look at the feedback given throughout the semester. I realized that many students may have never read much less typed that kind of work. 

Issues I've seen:

• not putting titles on paper
• not adding their name 
• extra spaces between indented, double-spaced paragraphs
• not knowing how to insert footnotes (or format theme for the correct style)
• not editing work

[regentrude]

3 minutes ago, elegantlion said:

How to properly format any written work. In my discipline -it's essays. We have sample essays on Canvas, we have guidelines on the assignments itself, but some never review that much less look at the feedback given throughout the semester. I realized that many students may have never read much less typed that kind of work. 

Issues I've seen:

• not putting titles on paper
• not adding their name 
• extra spaces between indented, double-spaced paragraphs
• not knowing how to insert footnotes (or format theme for the correct style)
• not editing work

Thanks - I will leave that to their English/humanities instructors since requirements are course specific. 

 

[Farrar]

7 hours ago, elegantlion said:

How to properly format any written work. In my discipline -it's essays. We have sample essays on Canvas, we have guidelines on the assignments itself, but some never review that much less look at the feedback given throughout the semester. I realized that many students may have never read much less typed that kind of work. 

Issues I've seen:

• not putting titles on paper
• not adding their name 
• extra spaces between indented, double-spaced paragraphs
• not knowing how to insert footnotes (or format theme for the correct style)
• not editing work

I have had to show students where the tab button is and demonstrate its use. That's not something I ever had to do in my first years teaching.

My own kid just had to do a writing sample for college placement today. He was allowed to have someone proofread so he showed it to me and I was like, dude, the formatting... And he was like yeah, but it hurts my eyes, I just fix it before I turn it in. Indenting looks really wrong to them now.

[Clarita]

3 hours ago, Farrar said:

My own kid just had to do a writing sample for college placement today. He was allowed to have someone proofread so he showed it to me and I was like, dude, the formatting... And he was like yeah, but it hurts my eyes, I just fix it before I turn it in. Indenting looks really wrong to them now.

When I would write things for work I would edit the paragraph and sentence spacing stuff afterwards too. I always have to read the rules of where I was submitting too and it was easier to make the software do it for me afterwards.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

On 6/3/2022 at 2:45 PM, regentrude said:

In the cheating thread, posts by @skimomma and @Clemsondana brought up difficulties students have navigating the college environment. So here's a spin-off to brainstorm ways to help students navigate the logistics of the transition.
I am redesigning the freshman seminar for my department, a one credit course for incoming students that meets for 50 minutes a week. The major component will be faculty presentations; I will assign one oral presentation and one short writing assignment. In addition, I want to address campus resources and assign a variety of short tasks that familiarize the students with the resources and Canvas (without it being too didactic). Within the severe time constraints, I have the following things in mind:

• How use Canvas modules, syllabus, calendar. Customize Canvas notifications.
• Introduce yourself to department secretary and have picture taken
• How to send email to faculty. Send me an email with questions you want me to address this semester.
• How curriculum is structured. How to run a degree audit. Identify some classes you need to take in the coming semester, enter answers in Canvas as text input assignment
• How to navigate schedule planner. Sign up for advising week appointment through google sheet.
• How to find academic assistance. Tutoring Center, help sessions. Attend one in a class you take, give brief report.
• Meet with advisor for 4-week check-in. This is to normalize meeting with advisor and lower barriers.
• Student Well-being. Counseling resources. Disability support. Testing center.
• First year research opportunities. Summer research. Career Fair. REU. Grad school. Path to academic position.
• Department student organizations.
• Develop connection among students. Have them create a way to connect as a class - discord server, groupme, their choice.
• something tbd so they have to scan a document and upload it to Canvas as a pdf

 I have room for 2-3 more short tasks. Hit me with your best suggestions for a group of freshmen with varying backgrounds (some may be first gen, some have extensive college credit) that are not just busywork, are not overly time-consuming, and address useful skills for college success.

@maize: you wrote about your EF struggles. What could your college faculty have done to better help?

ETA: All incoming students have a campus orientation. There is extra support for first generation students. This is specifically for majors in my department.

Does your college have general education requirements? Maybe have students identify a few courses that meet those requirements.

I think new freshmen are not familiar with the course codes used at colleges (ENG 100, MTH 2015, etc) or how to read a course description. Might be good to highlight not only the general description of a course, but prerequisites, and location/scheduling info. (My son accidentally registered for a 13 week DE chemistry course instead of a 15 week one. He also forgot to schedule time for lunch last semester.)

Does your college have a tool to help build a schedule? Like if you need the following 5 courses, here are possible combinations? Or if you must have these 3 courses plus two gen eds, here are options?

Are there major related resources in the library (books on reserve, databases) or static displays that would be helpful for study? Is there a process for reserving a group study room?

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

On 6/3/2022 at 3:38 PM, skimomma said:

Our STEM majors often have to do a lot of electronic processing before submission, ironically much more so than arts and sciences majors.  Some things my students struggled with that might be much reduced after zooming during Covid....some of which might be better addressed as an open Canvas course that any student in your department could access videos on demand if/when an issue arises.

How to save files in different formats, including zip/unzip

How to merge files as PDFs

How to use campus printers, in general and in large format

How to share Google docs for collaborative writing/editing

How to navigate the campus software center

How to use a computer lab (I wish I were kidding.....)

How to find/recover lost files

How to video/audio record a presentation

How to use a thumb drive

How to document a problem (screen shot, for instance) when sending a technology problem to an instructor/TA

I could go on and on.  Most students will know most/all of these but some might be lacking all!  I am impressed the hoops some students will jump through to avoid asking for help when they don't know how to do one of these things.

 

Knowing campus resources in case of computer failure would be helpful. My son had his computer fail to run an app mid semester. He was using library loaners, then an ice storm shut down the library and the academic buildings with computer labs. It was a bit of a crisis until he realized there was a browser version of the program he was trying to use.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

On 6/3/2022 at 9:10 PM, BusyMom5 said:

My DD has found her online calendar vital to getting everything done on time.  She makes checklists for each class, puts in all the games,  dances, etc.  I think a class on organizing your time would be very beneficial.

I didn't realize how much stuff was online,  with so many different providers.  One semester my DD had MyMathLab (Math), Cengage (English), Connect (McGraw Hill- Accounting), and Globalyceum (History).  Some teachers interacted through Blackboard, others through the text provider.  Some classes would have assignments due in both BB and the online text- or any mix really.  It was a LOT to keep track of.  I don't know how kids with EF issues keep track of it all- I helped mine keep it in order the first few semesters.  I wish schools would try to streamline how classes or presented at least a little bit, bc all these providers- each is a different login.  With our bad internet it would take 10 minutes just to figure our what an assignment was bc of all the logging in and clicking to the right section (no, we don't have unlimited high speed internet).  Anyway, i think i class on keeping this all straight would probably help a lot of students. 

Last thing- my DD has suddenly  "found" online textbook resources mid-semester!  The books are all so different,  some can be harder to navigate.  Maybe talk about taking time to investigate all the resources available for each online text.  If its a physical text, you can flip through and find glossary, maps,  indexes, etc.  Just spending an hour going through all the options to click can sometimes find resources you can use to study.  Or looking on YT for a review or tutorial for each online text? 

 

For a DE chemistry course, I bought my son a paper copy of the textbook. He wasn't using it at all, because the chapters didn't match the online text. It hadn't occurred to him that he could use the table of contents to match up chapter titles and get 80-90% of what he was looking for.

In the same course, he didn't realize the online textbook account also had a bunch of videos that explained certain topics further.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Sebastian (a lady)

[regentrude]

13 minutes ago, Sebastian (a lady) said:

Does your college have general education requirements? Maybe have students identify a few courses that meet those requirements.

Does your college have a tool to help build a schedule? Like if you need the following 5 courses, here are possible combinations? Or if you must have these 3 courses plus two gen eds, here are options?

We provide a sample curriculum chart that has all the requirements including class numbers. I plan to have students identify their next math and physics classes because those are sequenced and it is important that they familiarize themselves with the sequence. The gen eds can be taken whenever, so it does not matter when they schedule those. Since I am also meeting with all of them for advising in week 10, this is just an exercise to have them develop agency over their course path; the actual choices are made at the advising appointment.

Yes, we have a schedule planning tool, and I will remind them of that. We have used the schedule planner at registration, so they have all been shown how to use it.

[EKS]

Chiming in late here, but I continue to be astounded at how little students in my math degree program know about the following:

1)  That there are handheld calculators out there that can solve a whole lot of problems they will encounter in the calculus sequence, differential equations, linear algebra, and others.  They are beyond useful for general checking of work as well as figuring out where you went wrong.  Of course, there are online calculators that do the same thing, which apparently many students also don't know about.  The thing is, at least in my program, if an instructor allows calculators on exams (and they all do), they frequently also mean these sorts of calculators.

2)  How to get the most out of online course materials.  For example, my program uses Pearson's My Math Lab for quite a few of the introductory courses, including the tests.  Apparently, many students don't know about the "view an example" feature that shows how to do another problem that is exactly like the one presented but with different numbers.  They also don't know that the entire problem bank is available to them.  This means that they are not bound by whatever homework the instructor decides to assign, and if they do all of the available problems, they will have encountered the problems that will be on the test.

3)  For online classes, how to write a discussion post.  The purpose of the online discussion is to communicate your thinking about math to others.  The key words here are communicate and thinking.  This does not mean posting links to videos.  It does not mean posting photos of homework problems you solved.  It does not mean intentionally making mistakes and inserting them into your solutions for others to find.  It means asking questions about what genuinely confuses you, and answering other people's questions in such a way that they will understand what you're saying.  It also means musing about things that go somewhat beyond or sideways to whatever was presented in class.

[Clarita]

6 hours ago, EKS said:

That there are handheld calculators out there that can solve a whole lot of problems they will encounter in the calculus sequence, differential equations, linear algebra, and others.  They are beyond useful for general checking of work as well as figuring out where you went wrong.  Of course, there are online calculators that do the same thing, which apparently many students also don't know about.  The thing is, at least in my program, if an instructor allows calculators on exams (and they all do), they frequently also mean these sorts of calculator

You have to be cautious when using that method. The method calculators give you the answer does not always lead to the concise answer or the "best" answer. So 1) you may still have the right answer even though it's different than the calculator and 2) look for ... Or other weirdness in the calculator answer.

I took a lot of Calculus though so I don't remember when the calculator stopped getting a good answer.

[Sneezyone]

Graphing calculators are EXPENSIVE so students may not have any experience with them unless their parents could buy them. My DD (I TOLD HER OTHERWISE) didn't bring anything but a 4-function to the SAT because she thought they were prohibited (so she is retaking the test at her expense in August). WRT what students should know, I would put a lot more emphasis on the personal connection and advocacy piece: talking to profs/TAs/Resource centers about SPECIFIC issues (make grading contingent on specificity of problem description and problem resolution), identifying SPECIFIC resources within offices that may be of use to the student (in paragraph form), as well as technical tasks like merging PDFs (DS learned that just last year).

Edited June 7, 2022 by Sneezyone

[EKS]

1 hour ago, Clarita said:

You have to be cautious when using that method. The method calculators give you the answer does not always lead to the concise answer or the "best" answer. So 1) you may still have the right answer even though it's different than the calculator and 2) look for ... Or other weirdness in the calculator answer.

I took a lot of Calculus though so I don't remember when the calculator stopped getting a good answer.

Absolutely. 

Frequently the calculator gives the answer in a form that a student wouldn't give.  Most of the time you can determine whether it is the same answer though.  In calculus, some of the stuff with trig will give what look to be completely different answers that don't seem to resolve using the usual methods.  Sometimes this is because the difference is wrapped up in the "+ C."  When this happened, I would graph the calculator's answer and my own to see if they were actually the same or off by a constant.

The take home message is that in order to use the calculator effectively, you actually need to know what you're doing.  

[EKS]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

Graphing calculators are EXPENSIVE so students may not have any experience with them unless their parents could buy them.

Exactly! 

The calculator thing is an equity issue.  If some of the students have access to these sorts of calculators and others don't (for whatever reason), the students with access are going to have a fundamentally different experience in their math classes. 

Once I got a clue about using the fancy calculator, my entire orientation toward mathematics changed.  It took the load off with regard to heavy duty computation--especially with fractions--and allowed me to focus my attention on more important matters.  In fact, I am certain that computer platforms like My Math Lab assume that students will be using these sorts of calculators to deal with their ridiculously computation heavy versions of problems.  A student without access to this sort of calculator is at a distinct disadvantage. 

But the place where these calculators are really powerful is in dissecting what went wrong with a problem.  Once I started using the calculator to check my work, after a few weeks my error rate actually went way down because I was able to pinpoint where I was making mistakes.  And all of this is in addition to the value they add during exams (if they are allowed).  A person with this sort of calculator in an exam has an absolutely huge advantage over someone who doesn't.  Therefore, if an instructor is going to allow these calculators to be used on exams, IMO, they need to at a minimum let students know that their use is recommended and why.  

You can use online calculators, but obviously those won't work on exams.

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

WRT what students should know, I would put a lot more emphasis on the personal connection and advocacy piece: talking to profs/TAs/Resource centers about SPECIFIC issues (make grading contingent on specificity of problem description and problem resolution), identifying SPECIFIC resources within offices that may be of use to the student (in paragraph form), as well as technical tasks like merging PDFs (DS learned that just last year).

The calculator issue is just one example of these sorts of equity issues, and it's something that I think math instructors don't think about at all.  It is a SPECIFIC resource that could help a lot of students.

[regentrude]

@EKS none of the math courses here permit calculators on exams. Neither do the intro physics classes. 

Neither of my kids ever used a graphing calculator for their entire degree program in physics, at two different unis.

Edited June 7, 2022 by regentrude

[EKS]

58 minutes ago, regentrude said:

@EKS none of the math courses here permit calculators on exams. Neither do the intro physics classes. 

Neither of my kids ever used a graphing calculator for their entire degree program in physics, at two different unis.

None of that negates anything I said.

[regentrude]

51 minutes ago, EKS said:

None of that negates anything I said.

No. I was merely explaining that it doesn't apply to the specific situation for which I was seeking advice in this thread. 

Edited June 8, 2022 by regentrude

[Sneezyone]

8 minutes ago, regentrude said:

No. I was merely explaining that it doesn't apply to the specific situation for which I was seeking advice in this thread. 

I think sometimes we get hung up thinking the people reading along are *us* or like us. The content is applicable beyond us. If tests are designed without calculators in mind, great. Many of the math/science exams students encounter allow them and help the students who have them. My DD heard kids talking on their way into the SAT last Saturday about the poor dupe who only brought a four-function to the exam. She, too, only brought a four-function and felt like an idiot. I'm sure she did fine. My son (same administration, throw away exam) didn't even raise his hand to ask for one when offered. This is not atypical.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Sneezyone

[EKS]

11 minutes ago, regentrude said:

No. I was merely explaining that it doesn't apply to the specific situation for which I was seeking advice in this thread. 

I'm sorry, that was not clear from your post. 

ETA:  Though rereading it, I see that you meant that the students at your school can't use calculators on exams.  Honestly, exams are only one place where they can come in handy.  

Edited June 8, 2022 by EKS

[Clemsondana]

The calculator thing could be an issue but is handled differently in different places.   When I was an undergrad, all students taking calculus were required to use one specific type of calculator - like, they checked to make sure that we had it in the freshmen classes, offered tutorials on how to use reverse Polish notation in the evening, and occasionally had questions where you had to write what you had input in various lines so that they could see that you were using the calculator correctly.  I don't know whether it was good policy from the math department or not, but it was definitely fair - everybody treated the calculator expense the same as buying textbooks - unpleasant, but required.  It could equally have been handled by not allowing calculators at all, although that would likely disadvantage kids who never learned arithmetic because they had always used calculators.  

I'm a bit perplexed about the graphing calculators on the SAT.  I just asked and kid said that they only have a non-programmable, non-graphing scientific calculator because that's all that's allowed for Science Olympiad (they do AoPS at home and it rarely allows calculators).  They said that they weren't sure how a graphing calculator would have helped with the questions asked, and they only used the one that they had a couple of times.  I had sort of thought that we had bought kid a graphing calculator, but apparently they are heading into calc having never used one and still not owning one.  

[Roadrunner]

Apparently you can use a graphing calculator on SAT. 🙂

We use a $5 Walmart bought Casios for everything. I really wish AP Calculus wouldn’t require a graphing calculator because there is no real advantage to learning math with it. My kid refuses the touch it because he says it’s hard to use. Waste of money. 
 

I think what’s difficult for many kids is to speak out and ask for help. Something as simple as showing up at an office hour is an impossibility for a kid with anxiety. I have no idea how anybody can remedy such a situation, because as adults, it is their responsibility to seek out help not teacher’s responsibility to chase students. I often wonder if a lot of campus resources aren’t used not because kids don’t know it’s there, but because they are too intimidated to walk in. 
 

Editing to correct my mistake. 

Edited June 8, 2022 by Roadrunner

[Matryoshka]

17 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

You can’t use a graphing calculator on SAT. We use a $5 Walmart bought Casios for everything. I really wish AP Calculus wouldn’t require a graphing calculator because there is no real advantage to learning math with it. My kid refuses the touch it because he says it’s hard to use. Waste of money. 

Unless they've changed it since Covid, graphing calculators are most certainly used for the SATs. I proctored them for three years, and there's a specific list of which ones, but every kid had a graphing calculator.  I can think of maybe one kid that brought a non- graphing calculator in all that time.

Whether or not they're useful for the questions on the test is another question. I don't think any of the questions are set up to require the use of a graphing calculator.

Hasn't changed, from the College Board SAT site: 

Accepted Calculators

Calculators permitted during testing include:

• Most graphing calculators (see chart)
• All scientific calculators
• All four-function calculators (not recommended)

Edited June 8, 2022 by Matryoshka

[Roadrunner]

Stand corrected!

 

But yes, they are useless for SAT. 

 

[regentrude]

7 hours ago, Clemsondana said:

I'm a bit perplexed about the graphing calculators on the SAT.  I just asked and kid said that they only have a non-programmable, non-graphing scientific calculator because that's all that's allowed for Science Olympiad (they do AoPS at home and it rarely allows calculators).  They said that they weren't sure how a graphing calculator would have helped with the questions asked, and they only used the one that they had a couple of times.  

This. Graphing calculators are allowed, but unnecessary. Mine used a $7 scientific calculator just fine.

The only standardized test that is specifically ( and stupidly) designed to require the graphing calculator is the AP Calc.

[Farrar]

9 hours ago, regentrude said:

No. I was merely explaining that it doesn't apply to the specific situation for which I was seeking advice in this thread. 

I thought the thread was about ways to create support for students in a new college environment so they don't end up cheating. Surely the things EKS pointed out about using the calculator as a learning tool are helpful. And not all schools have the same policies.

[EKS]

10 hours ago, Clemsondana said:

I'm a bit perplexed about the graphing calculators on the SAT.

It isn't just graphing calculators (and it isn't just about graphing).  I'm talking about CAS-enabled calculators, which are allowed on both the SAT and the AP Calculus exams.  These are able to deal with symbols--for example, they can factor polynomials, deal with fractions as fractions,* and keep pi as pi and e as e, which could be helpful on the SAT.  They can also differentiate, integrate, solve differential equations, find limits, and do certain things with series, which would definitely be helpful on the calculus exam.

Again, this is a huge equity issue.  Students who know about these calculators, are proficient in their use, and have access to them for exams have an advantage over those who don't.  

This is the one I've been using.

* I think non-CAS enabled calculators can do this too, but I find it so helpful that I wanted to mention it.

Edited June 8, 2022 by EKS

[Dmmetler]

It’s defining cheating for a given setting. One reason I am pro calculators as stand alone devices is that if you allow calculators on phones, it’s a short step for most kids to find, say, the math app that lets you take a picture of an equation and it works it for you. After all, it’s in the calculator section of the App Store. Or, just googling answers. It’s the same device. I have the same problem with schools sending home Chromebooks. You’ve given kids the internet and told them to use it for school, then expected them not to do so.

 

A calculator that just does math provides support at X level. For kids who are already very fluent at X, there is little reason to use it. For kids who aren't, it removes some of the time consuming steps, but doesn't mean you don't need to know what to do and how to do it.  
 

The same applies to open book or open note tests-they provide some support, but you can't just type in the question and get the answer. 

Edited June 8, 2022 by Dmmetler

[Farrar]

13 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

It’s defining cheating for a given setting.

This is something that I always found relatively clear as a student myself, but have found that many of my kids' various dual enrollment profs have not been good at making clear. In ds's very first dual enrollment course, there was an exam that he had to do at home, that had ZERO guidance about whether it was open book, open note, or open nothing. I helped him look at everything to figure it out and we never did see any guidance. And then I told him, he just had to ask. And that because it was a test, he really had to treat it like it was no supports unless he asked. He was too nervous to ask (so that's obviously on him). So he did it closed book and closed note (and he did fine, so this is not a complaint about that). And then it turned out later that the prof did intend for it to be open book. 

That was a particularly egregious example, but there have now been several other cases that were similar where the prof said one thing was open note, but then the next thing has no guidance, so students are left to assume. Or one thing says "open book" and another says "open note." And these days, when kids have e-textbooks where they can copy and screenshot the whole thing, what does "open note but closed book" mean exactly? And should profs define that?

With this evolving sense of what's best for an online classroom and the wider and wider different approaches to it, I feel like profs should be really clear about what's cheating. In a world where some profs are giving collaborative tests and untimed, open everything, use the whole internet tests, I think students need to ideally see the expectations spelled out each time.

[Clemsondana]

26 minutes ago, EKS said:

It isn't just graphing calculators (and it isn't just about graphing).  I'm talking about CAS-enabled calculators, which are allowed on both the SAT and the AP Calculus exams.  These are able to deal with symbols--for example, they can factor polynomials, deal with fractions as fractions,* and keep pi as pi and e as e, which could be helpful on the SAT.  They can also differentiate, integrate, solve differential equations, find limits, and do certain things with series, which would definitely be helpful on the calculus exam.

Again, this is a huge equity issue.  Students who know about these calculators, are proficient in their use, and have access to them for exams have an advantage over those who don't.  

This is the one I've been using.

* I think non-CAS enabled calculators can do this too, but I find it so helpful that I wanted to mention it.

I didn't think that most of that was on the SAT.  Like I said, my kid is used to doing all of that by hand, solving the equation to the end leaving a symbol there and then multiplying by 3.14 if there is still a pi symbol (AoPS just has students leave it as pi, so that's what kid is used to).  I understand your point about it being an equity issue in places where it's needed.  We may be getting kid a snazzy calculator if it's needed for the AP Calc BC exam next year.  But, kid only missed 1 math question on the SAT and said that they barely used the calculator, maybe for 3-4 problems.  Clearly kid is good at math and it may make more of a difference for a kid struggling with the content.  

After reading this thread last night, I went looking for calculator comparisons.  There is a comparison chart on amazon showing what you 'needed' for various disciplines - it said that the TI-84 was fine for classes up through calculus and intro physics, but a CAS calculator was needed for mechanical and electrical engineering, life sciences, linear algebra, etc.  I understand that it could be helpful, but my real life has a lot of people with BS and PhD degrees in electrical/computer engineering and life sciences and physics and some people who took linear algebra and all of us did it with our TI-84.  This isn't a 'we did it so everybody else should suffe - just go buy a slide ruler' post - I don't care what people use, and if a technology is helpful it's great for people to use it - but I'm just saying that there are people who take these classes or cover that content who don't use them and don't feel like they are missing something.  Students who don't have that tech may be at a disadvantage, or there may be other students who are also doing the work by hand.  

And, as a comment on Farrar's post - yes, it's terrible to not put directions on the assignments.  I've gotten so that I have instructions in Canvas that say 'This test is closed note, closed book, no internet, and take as long as you need but usually these tests take around an hour' and then the first question is 'I understand that this test is closed note, closed book, no internet' with them saying yes as the answer.  For most assignments, they are welcome to use whatever and work in groups and I tell them that (I don't put it on homework every week, but I do for the first few weeks until they know the routine).  

[EKS]

13 minutes ago, Farrar said:

And then I told him, he just had to ask.

Students shouldn't have to ask. 

I have actually brought up the calculator thing at a math department meeting and was told that (1) it's only an issue for the "computation" classes (calculus, differential equations, linear algebra), and (2) students should just ask.  No--it should be explicitly stated in each syllabus what the expectations are.

This program is entirely online.  Frankly, they should assume that students are using all the technology and alter their assessments accordingly.  But I think that they don't want to spend the time doing that and don't want to deal with the extra grading that would result.  

In my darker moments, I think that they are being vague on purpose.

[Farrar]

8 minutes ago, EKS said:

Students shouldn't have to ask. 

I have actually brought up the calculator thing at a math department meeting and was told that (1) it's only an issue for the "computation" classes (calculus, differential equations, linear algebra), and (2) students should just ask.  No--it should be explicitly stated in each syllabus what the expectations are.

This program is entirely online.  Frankly, they should assume that students are using all the technology and alter their assessments accordingly.  But I think that they don't want to spend the time doing that and don't want to deal with the extra grading that would result.  

In my darker moments, I think that they are being vague on purpose.

I agree. And I think there's a lot of assuming going on by everyone. If you're a student and you go into a class and everyone is openly cheating and you're new to this environment, it's easy to assume it's not cheating. And if you're a professor who came up in a system where certain things were expected in all courses and where technology that's available now simply wasn't, then things that are obvious to you aren't obvious to students and getting angry at them for not understanding what you expected is not really helping.

But also, students really, really need to learn to ask questions.

I mean, the flip side to that... don't be the prof who docked points from my kid for asking a question about an assignment that was not clear. During the class, they were all on the group chat like, you ask, no you ask, heck no I'm not asking, she gets pissed when anyone says anything. And finally my kid asked. SO SHE TOOK POINTS OFF HIS ASSIGNMENT and then made the assignment more difficult because how dare anyone question her. I was just like, holy cow, seriously? But he showed me how she altered the assignment after he asked. I can't even with some profs.

[EKS]

4 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

Like I said, my kid is used to doing all of that by hand...

I am not advocating using the calculator in place of doing things by hand.  The place where I find it most useful is in checking my work after I've done it by hand.

[EKS]

3 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I mean, the flip side to that... don't be the prof who docked points from my kid for asking a question about an assignment that was not clear. During the class, they were all on the group chat like, you ask, no you ask, heck no I'm not asking, she gets pissed when anyone says anything. And finally my kid asked. SO SHE TOOK POINTS OFF HIS ASSIGNMENT and then made the assignment more difficult because how dare anyone question her. I was just like, holy cow, seriously? But he showed me how she altered the assignment after he asked. I can't even with some profs.

That is totally horrible!

[EKS]

And another thing about asking...

Sometimes when you ask, only a subset of people get the answer.  For example, I was in an online office hours with a professor and a few other students.  One of the students asked if we could use our notes on the exams.  The professor said yes, but he never mentioned this in any official communication to the students.