England or The UK? North American usage

[Laura Corin]

7 minutes ago, wintermom said:

I guess that person wasn't so politically savvy about England, um, I mean the UK. Or was that Great Britain. 😂 

If they mixed up Ireland and Northern Ireland they could risk some serious abuse depending on their audience. Oh dear, I guess politically savviness has its limits. 😉 

They didn't specify,  but I  think that that was in the presenters' minds. The person was a possible pick for the new US administration, a post with a fair amount of overseas contact... 

[almondbutterandjelly]

This has been very helpful.  I had no idea that Scotland and Wales and such were their own countries, and that the UK consisted of a bunch of countries.  Very interesting!

 

[Laura Corin]

1 minute ago, perky said:

This has been very helpful.  I had no idea that Scotland and Wales and such were their own countries, and that the UK consisted of a bunch of countries.  Very interesting!

 

Part of the problem is the word 'country', which can mean different things. It's not wrong to call Scotland a country, but Brits tend to talk about four nations making up one country.

[Lecka]

I learned “Scotland, England, Wales, and North Ireland” in school.  
 

I don’t think I would know it if I hadn’t learned it in school, and I think it’s something I could have just as easily not learned.  
 

I don’t think it’s a shocking thing to not know.  
 

Edit:  well, maybe, because there was a ton of news coverage of Brexit, a vote held for Independence in Scotland iirc, and Ireland and Northern Ireland.  I think in a lot of our news coverage — it’s clear Northern Ireland is a separate place, but not necessarily that its part of the UK.  It is assumed prior knowledge but — I wouldn’t necessarily know it.  I am a little on the younger side to know a lot about that, though.  

Edited December 1, 2020 by Lecka

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

She's the queen of lots of places.  Her title is, I think, Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.

...But it’s so hard to fit all that on a business card. So we just say, “The Queen of England.” 😁

[Laura Corin]

23 minutes ago, Quill said:

...But it’s so hard to fit all that on a business card. So we just say, “The Queen of England.” 😁

Nah. On her card she just has Elizabeth R. 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Laura Corin

[theelfqueen]

There's an old joke that you can be Welsh or Scottish in your regular life but if you become famous - you're suddenly British. 

[HS Mom in NC]

4 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

Nah. On her card she just has Elizabeth R. 

I like to imagine it reads, "Grand Poobah", secretly her favorite song by Elton John is Goodbye Yellow Brick Road, and she sings it to herself fantasizing about leaving it all behind.

[Tanaqui]

11 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

Nah. On her card she just has Elizabeth R. 

Wait - serious or sarcastic?

On topic, you may have heard that US schools don't really teach geography and Americans, consequently, don't understand it. Obviously it's a big country and we don't have a national educational system, but on the whole this is accurate. Americans really are vague on the world outside our borders. Don't ask us to fill in maps, it's cruel.

So, anyway, we're not very clear on the venn diagram that is the UK and also the non-UK part of Ireland. (I only learned last year that *most* of Ireland is the wholly independent one!)

[Laura Corin]

13 minutes ago, theelfqueen said:

There's an old joke that you can be Welsh or Scottish in your regular life but if you become famous - you're suddenly British. 

You mean because everyone wants to claim your success?

For some reason this reminds me of a funny thing this week - Dave Prowse who  body-acted Darth Vader died. The NYT said, 'Mr. Prowse’s voice had the distinctive agricultural tones of someone born in Bristol, in southwest England.' That's my home town. It's a city of over half a million people. 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Laura Corin

[Laura Corin]

8 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Wait - serious or sarcastic?

I don't know if she uses cards, but she signs herself Elizabeth R - for Regina. 

[SKL]

I wasn't brought up to say "UK," but since I have some knowledge, I will only say "England" if I'm talking about England.  Otherwise I will say the place I'm talking about or just "UK" if I'm not sure or if UK is more accurate.

So if my kid wants to know where Oliver Twist was set, I will say England.

[Lecka]

I remember hearing the David Bowie/Mick Jagger “Dancing in the Streets” and not knowing what UK was.... or that it was initials and not a word!  I was really little, though.  
 

Edit:  I thought they might be saying “okay” with an accent!  Like — “okay — we’re going to start singing now.”  

Edited December 2, 2020 by Lecka

[Pen]

12 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

One of my favourite podcasts, Americast from the BBC, was musing on the use of 'England' as a synonym for 'The UK'.  ETA: they had just had a highly educated and politically savvy guest on who used them synonymously, so they were curious about where that comes from. 

Could you help me with a little poll please?  All answers to the poll are anonymous and I won't pass on the ID of any comments.

 

England is the national area that occupies the big Great Britain island other than Scotland mainland and Wales. 
 

UK is a country that includes all 3 of those plus Northern Ireland, also the little islands not part of GB like Shetland are part of Scotland hence part of UK, but not part of GB. 
 

 

 

 

 

[importswim]

36 minutes ago, Lecka said:

I remember hearing the David Bowie/Mick Jagger “Dancing in the Streets” and not knowing what UK was.... or that it was initials and not a word!  I was really little, though.  
 

Edit:  I thought they might be saying “okay” with an accent!  Like — “okay — we’re going to start singing now.”  

It's confused further for me because I married into a University of Kentucky family (UK). LOL! I have to have DH and family clarify when we're talking.

[wintermom]

10 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

She's the queen of lots of places.  

Yup. She's Queen of Canada. I even checked on the government of Canada website (Canada.ca), "Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II is Queen of Canada and Head of State. The Governor General is the representative of the Queen in Canada." 

Her image is on my money, stamps, her picture was on the wall of the school office growing up. She was a lot younger then. 😂

I guess Canada may be geographically linked to the US, but we aren't the 51st state just yet. First the US needs to assimilate the UK into the US, and then we can be Canada 5 - 1 (like Hawaii 5 - 0). 😉 

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by wintermom

[theelfqueen]

1 hour ago, Laura Corin said:

You mean because everyone wants to claim your success?

For some reason this reminds me of a funny thing this week - Dave Prowse who  body-acted Darth Vader died. The NYT said, 'Mr. Prowse’s voice had the distinctive agricultural tones of someone born in Bristol, in southwest England.' That's my home town. It's a city of over half a million people. 

Yes all of Britain wants to claim you if you're famous (and a lot of  the world doesn't know that being Welsh is its own thing) 

[Lady Florida.]

3 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

 

On topic, you may have heard that US schools don't really teach geography and Americans, consequently, don't understand it. Obviously it's a big country and we don't have a national educational system, but on the whole this is accurate. Americans really are vague on the world outside our borders. Don't ask us to fill in maps, it's cruel.

So, anyway, we're not very clear on the venn diagram that is the UK and also the non-UK part of Ireland. (I only learned last year that *most* of Ireland is the wholly independent one!)

I wonder when that stopped, or if it was always regional. I went to public school in New Jersey up to 8th grade (after which we moved to Florida). In elementary school in the 1960s we most definitely learned geography - both political borders and actual physical geography - of other countries of the world. And during tests we were often given blank maps where part of the test was to fill in the name of the country inside a border. Admittedly it was Euro-centric and mostly Western but we did learn geography. I know it isn't taught in schools but I don't know if that's something that changed over time or if as I said, it was always taught in some states and not in others.

[Melissa in Australia]

I didn't vote as I am not in north America

 I refer to UK as Great Britain  . I just looked it up and see that excludes the part of Ireland   opps sorry

 We ( meaning the general Aussie ) are aware that England, Scotland , Wales etc are all separate places, but part of UK. but lots of Australians have close ancestors from those places. Also Geography was extensively studied when I was at School

Edited December 2, 2020 by Melissa in Australia
removing random capital letters

[Ellie]

14 hours ago, wendyroo said:

Yes, I was born and have always lived in the US, and I use United States and America more or less interchangeably. 

In my usage there is a difference between "America" (synonymous with the United States) and "the Americas" (North, Central and South).

Right on.

I will always be an American. I will always say that I live in America, the same way that Canadians say they live in Canada, and Mexicans say they live in Mexico. My country is the United  States of America, and so I can use either U.S. or America.

[Ellie]

15 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

You could think of it this way:

Imagine that the United States of America was made up of only four states: California, Nevada, Arizona and New Mexico.  The majority of the population would be in California, but 'California' as a shorthand designation would not include the other people.  And someone in Arizona might be less-than-happy to be called 'Californian'.  So the UK is made up of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.  The UK is everyone.  England is just England. 

That is such a clear explanation. TYVM!

[Pen]

16 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

You could think of it this way:

Imagine that the United States of America was made up of only four states: California, Nevada, Arizona and New Mexico.  The majority of the population would be in California, but 'California' as a shorthand designation would not include the other people.  And someone in Arizona might be less-than-happy to be called 'Californian'.  So the UK is made up of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.  The UK is everyone.  England is just England. 

In a way that’s helpful (and maybe you could have had Alaska as sort of like Northern Ireland insofar as each is physically separated from the main area).

But in USA many People move around a good bit and become Arizonan or whatever, whereas my sense in UK is that there’s more of an ethnic aspect to being Welsh or Scottish that isn’t given up as readily with a move to London, say.  In that sense it seems more to me like being Québécois which is substantially different from being British Columbian. We do have that in USA more with regions such as the South where there’s a cultural difference. But the nations within UK seem to me to have more distinct nation-ness than most US states do.   As well they have separate languages (or did once upon a time). 

[wintermom]

12 hours ago, theelfqueen said:

Yes all of Britain wants to claim you if you're famous (and a lot of  the world doesn't know that being Welsh is its own thing) 

I first picked up on Welsh being its own thing when I saw a TV interview from a British program where Catherine Zeta-Jones said she was Welsh. This was back in the early 90s when "Darling Buds of May" TV series was becoming a big hit.  I knew about Scottish and Northern Irish regions of the UK, and I knew where Wales was. I just didn't clue in that people held strong ties to a Welsh identity.  I think it's great.  I really appreciate those cultural/heritage ties. 

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by wintermom

[gardenmom5]

21 hours ago, rebcoola said:

I use England a lot but I am actually referring to England not the UK.  I don't use British much.  I don't think it helps Americans that the Queen is so often called Queen of England by media.

yeah - usually if I'm referring to England - It's England, (or Scotland for Scotland, or Wales for Wales.)

[Emba]

On 12/1/2020 at 8:23 AM, Laura Corin said:

Great Britain is the 'mainland' of the UK.  So it includes the nations that are based on the main island: England, Scotland and Wales plus their associated small islands, for example Shetland and Orkney.

The full name of the country is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

Ok, what is British vs. English has been a topic of confusion for me for awhile. And you explained it, and I thought oh, that makes sense. And then I was reading Let It Bleed, by Ian Rankin. It is set in Edinburgh, Scotland. And this bit of dialog occurs between an American and a Scottish policeman:

American: “Well, that’s hardly fair, is it? Hardly British?

policeman: “You’re not in Britain now, Mr. Haldayne.”

 And so he seems to be saying that Scotland isn’t part of Britain (which I would have thought would have been synonymous with Great Britain). And now I am confused again. Or is this less about geography and more about cultural  identity?

[gardenmom5]

5 minutes ago, Emba said:

Ok, what is British vs. English has been a topic of confusion for me for awhile. And you explained it, and I thought oh, that makes sense. And then I was reading Let It Bleed, by Ian Rankin. It is set in Edinburgh, Scotland. And this bit of dialog occurs between an American and a Scottish policeman:

American: “Well, that’s hardly fair, is it? Hardly British?

policeman: “You’re not in Britain now, Mr. Haldayne.”

 And so he seems to be saying that Scotland isn’t part of Britain (which I would have thought would have been synonymous with Great Britain). And now I am confused again. Or is this less about geography and more about cultural  identity?

  It may have more to do with the politics in Scotland in general - and the author in particular.  There are those who want to break away, and completely be their own independent country.   No longer be part of Great Britain - or the United Kingdom. (to my understanding)  They've had a referendum  that   failed, but there's talk of another one.

here's a recent news article on the subject.

[vonfirmath]

On 12/1/2020 at 9:11 PM, Lady Florida. said:

I wonder when that stopped, or if it was always regional. I went to public school in New Jersey up to 8th grade (after which we moved to Florida). In elementary school in the 1960s we most definitely learned geography - both political borders and actual physical geography - of other countries of the world. And during tests we were often given blank maps where part of the test was to fill in the name of the country inside a border. Admittedly it was Euro-centric and mostly Western but we did learn geography. I know it isn't taught in schools but I don't know if that's something that changed over time or if as I said, it was always taught in some states and not in others.

 

In 6th grade my son took World History.  As they studied each culture, they also had to do geography assignments around the relevant countries.  Making maps and placing certain items on them.  And being ready to repeat it on a test.  It was the thing he struggled with the worst due to not being a artist at ALL (ANd the maps were on the computer screen. No tracing and I couldn't figure out a good way to print since they were in a program with the textbook)

 

OTOH I haven't seen them having to do any finding the states on a map of the U.S. at any point. (including this year when they are learning American History)

 

ETA: OTOH This was two years ago and, since it isn't information he uses on a regular basis, I wouldn't be surprised if he hasn't remembered hardly any of it. Especially all the -stans when they covered Eastern Europe.

Edited December 3, 2020 by vonfirmath

[Laura Corin]

25 minutes ago, Emba said:

Ok, what is British vs. English has been a topic of confusion for me for awhile. And you explained it, and I thought oh, that makes sense. And then I was reading Let It Bleed, by Ian Rankin. It is set in Edinburgh, Scotland. And this bit of dialog occurs between an American and a Scottish policeman:

American: “Well, that’s hardly fair, is it? Hardly British?

policeman: “You’re not in Britain now, Mr. Haldayne.”

 And so he seems to be saying that Scotland isn’t part of Britain (which I would have thought would have been synonymous with Great Britain). And now I am confused again. Or is this less about geography and more about cultural  identity?

Yes, it's about cultural identity. Particularly that phrase about fairness and Britishness, which actually refers to a stereotype of Englishness. 

Edited December 3, 2020 by Laura Corin

[Emba]

19 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

Yes, it's about cultural identity. Particularly that phrase about fairness and Britishness, which actually refers to a stereotype of Englishness. 

Thanks. I was aware of the stereotype, otherwise I might not have thought about it being cultural rather than geographical at all. 
 

If I hadn’t come across it so soon after reading this thread I probably wouldn’t have really noticed it.