Sleep, where are you? HELP

[DawnM]

I used to have no trouble sleeping.

After I had my kids, and babies, and no sleep, I have struggled more.  

I have been on 2 Benadryl per night for 15 years.  Recently they have said it could link to memory issues, so I stopped.  And haven't slept much since.

I have tried melatonin, magnesium, exercise, hot milk before bed.......all any of it does is allow me to GET to sleep but after about 3-5 hours, I am wide awake.

Right now I am home 100% of the time, so I nap some if I need to (and yes, I have also pushed through not napping to try to sleep better.....that didn't work either.)

Exercise worked best but I have only done it a couple of times because I am so dang tired.  AND, only heavy exercise seemed to work, and I don't always have the ability to do that.

What else?  Suggestions before I resort back to Benadryl.   Cuz I can't keep going like this.

(btw:  I hate baths for many many reasons, they don't calm me down, so a bath won't work)

[Soror]

Have you tried the time release melatonin, it helps you stay asleep.

[DawnM]

Just now, soror said:

Have you tried the time release melatonin, it helps you stay asleep.

 

I have not.  I will try it.  I guess part of me isn't sure melatonin actually helps me at all.   But it is worth a try.

Thanks

[Soror]

11 minutes ago, DawnM said:

 

I have not.  I will try it.  I guess part of me isn't sure melatonin actually helps me at all.   But it is worth a try.

Thanks

It can be tricky to get the dosage right, so play with that too. Time release did well helping me stay asleep as that has my big issue. Currently progesterone is my go to because mine is primarily tied to my cycle and hormones and my progesterone was low (confirmed by testing).

[Ottakee]

I was right there with you last night

...and about 5-6 nights a week.

I can fall asleep easily but 2-4am I am WIDE awake, very tired, but awake.   I have to get up to pee and once I do that, I really struggled to fall asleep.

I am sure it is, at least partially, hormonally based.  I am almost 50.

I have thought about the time release melatonin but wonder how that would work when often it is my bladder that wakes me up.

[cintinative]

Mine isn't every day, but I am often awake for hours in the middle of the night. It used to be my bladder like Ottakee, but now it is not that, so I am not sure.  Fortunately it's not every night. I am so sorry OP. It has to be so hard to function like that. 

[Soror]

8 minutes ago, Ottakee said:

I was right there with you last night

...and about 5-6 nights a week.

I can fall asleep easily but 2-4am I am WIDE awake, very tired, but awake.   I have to get up to pee and once I do that, I really struggled to fall asleep.

I am sure it is, at least partially, hormonally based.  I am almost 50.

I have thought about the time release melatonin but wonder how that would work when often it is my bladder that wakes me up.

The melatonin helped me as it would help me fall back to sleep easier. Progesterone does the same and considering that is a known issue I'm using it now.

[DawnM]

1 minute ago, Seasider too said:

Topical progesterone and no/reduced sugar. 

Hormone/insulin levels play into cortisol levels, which affect sleep. IMO, anyway. Might want to look into this angle on it. 

 

I went off sugar for 40 days for lent, didn't have it even once.  I had planned to stay off of it, but......😜  I felt better overall, but didn't notice any sleep help.   I haven't tried progesterone in years, and last I tried it I didn't have sleep issues.  I didn't notice any difference while I was on it, which is why I went off.  I can try it again maybe.

[Kassia]

2 hours ago, DawnM said:

 

I have tried melatonin, magnesium, exercise, hot milk before bed.......all any of it does is allow me to GET to sleep but after about 3-5 hours, I am wide awake.

Right now I am home 100% of the time, so I nap some if I need to (and yes, I have also pushed through not napping to try to sleep better.....that didn't work either.)

 

 

Exactly the same for me for the past 15+ years.  Nothing helps me stay asleep.  It's awful.  I rest for about 30 minutes early afternoon most days.  I usually don't sleep, but that rest is enough to get me through the day.  It's really hard for me to function sometimes and I'm grateful I don't have a job.  

 

[Scarlett]

Sorry Dawn, I know how horrible it is to not get good sleep.  I slept like a rock all my life---even through raising my son (with the exception of newborn stage) up until I was about 37....I was completely done with menopause by 43 or so....but sleep never returned the same way.  I attributed part of it to my  horrific divorce,  but I really think it is mostly hormonal or lack of it.  IDK. 

I find alcohol makes me more likely to wake up at 2 or 3 a.m.    And sugar has a similar effect.  It is a real balancing act trying to do everything right, hoping for a good nights sleep.  

I took lorazapam for a while and that was glorious, but i didn't want to be on that long term.  I also took a very small dosage of hormones for 5 years but also weaned off of that because I didn't want to be on them forever.  My sleep is better than it was but still not like it was in my 20s and most of my 30s.  

I wouldn't blame you for going back to benadryl though....sleep is vital.  

[Liz CA]

Seconding Seasider, most likely hormonal. Sounds like prog is low. Have you had a comprehensive hormone panel done to rule out imbalances?

[J-rap]

That's hard.  I used to be able to sleep easily and well, even through some really tough years.  But leading up to 50, it started to change.  I do think it's hormone based with me.  Now it's pretty consistently not good.  I fall asleep easily.  But so often I just wake up in the middle of the night and am wide awake, and then I start thinking, and then it's a lost cause.   I rarely have sugar or coffee in the evenings, I take warm baths, I'll go on a walk before bed, etc.   I don't see any of that making a difference.    But what I do now is just go with it.  So when I'm suddenly wide awake in the middle of the night, I get up.  I read or go on my computer for a bit or write letters.  Usually before dawn, I'm finally tired again so I sleep another hour or two.  In the end I will maybe have had 4 hours, and I find that I can function just fine on 4 hours of sleep for one day.  And usually because I'm quite tired by the next night, I do sleep better.  So it's every other night.  If it reaches a point where that pattern starts wearing on me, I'll take an over the counter Unisom sleeping pill for anywhere from 3 - 6 nights.  When I take those, I have the greatest sleeps.  After that, I seem to sleep better for awhile,  sometimes for a few weeks.  

Then it all starts over again.  But, this seems to work for me.

[DawnM]

I did have bloodwork done recently and everything came back normal except for my cholesterol, which is a little off.

[Kellijo]

Hi Dawn,

After years of being on Benadryl, I also heard the same thing that it can lead to issues with memory so I decided to stop that and started on a journey to finally find some more natural remedies to finally get some good sleep.  I'll share the products that I have figured out, in combination, have finally worked for me.  I hope it's okay to share these links:  

I take these products each night:  

https://www.amazon.com/BRI-Nutrition-100mg-Vegetarian-Capsules/dp/B00X89O5B0/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=5htp+bri+nutrition&qid=1591367385&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFFRDVFMjYwT1hIRlQmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTAwMTk2NTAyUjI2RU5UWkRZQVVBJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTAwOTk4MDAyUUE5NlFaWDU4TkFPJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

https://www.amazon.com/Gaia-Herbs-Adrenal-Nightly-Capsules/dp/B01DA54H9G/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=28KFR5AHTJV1C&dchild=1&keywords=gaia+adrenal+health+daily+support+120&qid=1591367435&sprefix=gaia+adrenal+%2Caps%2C175&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzQ09VUU9UQ1JUTTUxJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMDA2NDQyMlZLN1lLN0syN1AwTCZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwNDk3ODk0VzdJUzlYOVg3M0tEJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

https://www.amazon.com/Natrol-Melatonin-Drug-Free-Non-Habit-Strawberry/dp/B001E0WOKE/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=natrol+melatonin+5mg+time+release&qid=1591367499&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzRjRFMUE2WjJNV0Q3JmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMzc0MDA1MTdVWktGTVNYMjZJSCZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwNTc1NjUzMTYwN0RLMzA0Q1Y1ViZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

https://www.organicexcellence.com/products/feminine-balance-therapy-2-oz-jar?variant=27705392838

These are the amounts I take:  1 of the 5 HTP, 2 of the Adrenal nightly capsules, 1 of the Melatonin, and I usually put about 1/2 to 1 tsp. progesterone on my wrists, inner thighs, etc. rotating sites.  This is the ONLY thing, after years and years of trial and error, that I have found that has finally worked for me. I've been post menopausal for almost 9 years now.  The progesterone has also calmed anxiety for me.  I hope this helps you as well.  

Kelli

 

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, DawnM said:

I did have bloodwork done recently and everything came back normal except for my cholesterol, which is a little off.

Did they check your hormone levels though?  I find they don't unless you specifically ask.

[DawnM]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Did they check your hormone levels though?  I find they don't unless you specifically ask.

 

Yes, they did.  They were normal as well

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, DawnM said:

 

Yes, they did.  They were normal as well

Hmm.  Interesting.  How long have you been off the Benadryl?  

[PrincessMommy]

@DawnM - I could have written this.  The last few nights have been agony.  About 6 mos ago I started having trouble falling asleep.  It was midnight before I could go to sleep, then I'd wake up in the middle of the night.  Midnight became 1am.. and now it's crept towards 2am - and I still won't take a nap.  Last night it was 4am.  I am miserable and now my allergies have turned into a cold 😞 

I used to be on HRT and that did help with my sleep issues (as well as hot flashes that are waking me up now).  But, I can't take it anymore because of uterine polyps.   I was at the point of asking my GYN to put me back on HRT and figure out what to do about the polyps when everything went into lockdown.  

But, FWIW, here is my regime: 

I take a small amount of Glycine (someone recommended it here and it has helped but not consistently - gives me wonderful dreams too)

Take Valerian

Take about 5mg of Melatonin.

I usually take a warm/hot bath right before bedtime (even in the summer).  I try to keep the room cool.  I have a white noise machine.

The one thing I do that most people will say don't is I do listen to an audible and play solitaire on my phone (with the blue-light filter on).  It helps to distract my brain.  I've been doing this for years so I don't think that can be the culprit now. 

[bethben]

I had sleep issues like you described for 13 years.  I was taking 1/3 to 1/2 of a sleeping pill for over five years, anti-anxiety medication for 1 year, Ambien, and benzos.  I even had someone prescribe me bio-identical progesterone.  About two years ago, Ambien wasn't even working with helping me to sleep.   I wound up going to a naturopath.  It was expensive, but I finally feel like I am on the right path.  Turns out, my adrenals were completely tanked.  What happens with some people and adrenals that are not working properly is that you can be really tired in the morning and really wired at night - hence not being able to get to sleep.  If you go to a doctor, they will just prescribe something which eventually will stop working.  

[DawnM]

5 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Hmm.  Interesting.  How long have you been off the Benadryl?  

 

Several weeks.  I don't remember the exact date.

[DawnM]

5 hours ago, Seasider too said:

I’m sorry. Finding something there would have made it easier. 

All I have left to suggest is prayer and yoga.   

Hey don’t you think having a two year old in the house has something to do with it? You’re likely back to that sleeping-with-one-eye-open stage.  

 

Well, that could be part of it.  

[DawnM]

1 hour ago, bethben said:

I had sleep issues like you described for 13 years.  I was taking 1/3 to 1/2 of a sleeping pill for over five years, anti-anxiety medication for 1 year, Ambien, and benzos.  I even had someone prescribe me bio-identical progesterone.  About two years ago, Ambien wasn't even working with helping me to sleep.   I wound up going to a naturopath.  It was expensive, but I finally feel like I am on the right path.  Turns out, my adrenals were completely tanked.  What happens with some people and adrenals that are not working properly is that you can be really tired in the morning and really wired at night - hence not being able to get to sleep.  If you go to a doctor, they will just prescribe something which eventually will stop working.  

 

What do you take from the naturopath?

[bethben]

It involved a couple of supplements that had bovine adrenal cortex in them.  I also greatly adjusted my diet (very little sugar, no dairy, no gluten) and addressed some specific genetic issues that I have that make stress hormones tend to build up in my system rather than release.  I also had to address my thyroid gland since adrenals and thyroid are related.  The thing about naturopathy is that it really is individualized so that what may work for one person doesn't work for another.  I actually got desperate almost two years ago.  My kids had gone back to school and like you, I was existing on 3-5 hours of sleep a night.  I was a complete mess.  I actually wound up breaking my foot because I was so completely exhausted, I stepped wrong on a welcome mat.  After that, I wound up in therapy for a year dealing with trauma from the birth of my disabled son compounded with adopting my daughter.  After therapy, I started the naturopath route to help deal with sleep issues that had gotten better with therapy but still weren't good.  I still have a bit to go but I can function so much better now that I can get around 6.5-7 hours of sleep.  With people who can't sleep there can be so much else that is going on that is hard to unravel.  It could be your gut bacteria, it could be your adrenals, hormones, etc.  

[EKS]

If you drink alcohol, try stopping.  It causes wakefulness in the middle of the night.

[BeachGal]

Your core body temp needs to drop about 2-3 degrees Fahrenheit in order to go into a deep sleep. Sleep researcher Matthew Walker, who has written a book, has studied this in people.

Glycine powder works this way.

So do cooling pads and blankets. My husband and one son use Ooler pads that can be programmed to particular temps at night. Both have found them very helpful but it can take a few nights to figure out what temp works best. They are also a bit pricey.

[DawnM]

1 hour ago, EKS said:

If you drink alcohol, try stopping.  It causes wakefulness in the middle of the night.

 

I drink alcohol about once per 4-6 weeks.  I am not a drinker.

[EKS]

10 hours ago, DawnM said:

I drink alcohol about once per 4-6 weeks.  I am not a drinker.

Too bad--that would have been an easy fix.  

[BeachGal]

10 hours ago, Seasider too said:

I have been looking forward to your update on the Ooler pad - would you buy it again?

 

We bought two Oolers -- one for me and one for my husband -- but my son needed it more than I did, so I gave him mine. I have yet to try one out. However, my husband and son love theirs. I will probably buy another for myself at some point but I tend to sleep well anyway.

The Ooler is more expensive than its predecessor, the Chilipad, but its features are worth the extra money, IMO.

The distilled water in the Ooler is a breeze to keep clean because it uses UV light to sterilize the water as it circulates. My husband checked ours a few times and said everything looked great. The water in the Chilipad needs a chemical of some sort to keep it clean. We never owned one so I don't know what is used.

The Ooler does not need to be refilled that often. Maybe every one to three months? The Chilipad needs to be refilled more often. I've read every few days to every week or so. Kind of a hassle.

Don't know much about how each app works but I know you can change temps at different times. So, if you tend to wake around 3 am -- say, you have hot flashes then -- you could try programming your app to go down a degree or two at 2 am. And, if you want to get up at 6 am without an alarm, you could program the app to a warmer temp to wake you up.

 

Here is a better review of the Ooler and Chilipad:

https://sleepgadgets.io/ooler-review/#Chilipad_vs_Ooler

 

Be aware that the Ooler has a thick, long, insulated gray hose that connects the pad to the chilling device. (I think the Chilipad hose is shorter.) The Ooler's hose is long enough to run the length of the bed and a bit more. They did this so that the cooling device could be placed farther away from a bed if necessary. It's a bit tricky to tuck in sheets and bedding because the hose is placed in the center of the pad at the end. The hose can be placed at the head or foot of your bed. Whatever works. We have the hose at the head of the bed and the cooling device is placed on a night table shelf.

The cooling device should not be placed on carpet. It also needs some clearance around it.

The cooling device also makes some noise. You can not set it to be truly silent, but it's not very loud. More like a white noise machine. It can also be adjusted so that it runs louder, too. We do that because our neighbor's tv is right next to our bedroom wall and the white noise helps to drown it out.

Also, the pad is not huge but it doesn't need to be. It runs about the length of the bed and is about 1/3 as wide as a queen-sized bed. Wide enough to cool you off, though. One pad is made for one person so if you and spouse each want one, you have to buy two. The Chilipad is smaller than the Ooler.

In order for the cooling effect to work, you need to sleep under at least a blanket.

We've had no problems with leaks whatsoever, even my son's kittens who attack his feet haven't succeeded in piercing the tubes.

Look for coupons online to keep cost down. I think if you sign up with them, they'll send you something as well. I think I got 20% off both of ours.

Considering how important sleep is, I think it's a pretty good investment. Let me know if you have any more questions.

[BookwormTo2]

I’m sorry you’re having trouble sleeping, OP! Have you checked your thyroid levels? Not the TSH — your Free T3 levels and where you are on the range. If your Free T3 number is low in the range it could indicate low thyroid, which can cause sleep issues among other things. Free T3 is the readily available active T3 (energy) you have. Doctors love to check T3 Uptake, T3 Total etc. and those don’t show your active T3 like Free T3. Some use OTC Bovine supplements or of course scripts for low thyroid.

[sheryl]

Just reading articles over the years for dd and myself -

1.  NO caffeine late in day (everyone's tolerance will be different here.   I am now down to 1 cup ONLY at the earliest morning hour I wake up).  It stays in the system. So, drink less and earlier.  Caffeine is found in not only coffee but teas, chocolate...

2. Yes, exercise does help.  You don't need to be a marathon runner.  The key is several times a week.  More often and less time (4-5 days a week at least 20 min) rather than fewer days and more time (1-2 days a week at 40 min).  Deep breathing from exercise/activity will help with oxygen exchange.

***  I would incorporate using bands, cuffs or light (5 lb. free weights which are good for toning muscle)

3.  Vary your routine.  Walk outside.  Ride a bike outside.  Kayak, hike.  Walk/march inside.  Run in place inside.  Ride your stationary bike.  
 
4.  There is formal exercise and "activity".  Working in yard on the house burns calories.

5.  Drink "warm" milk an hour or so before bed.

6.  Romaine lettuce shows some promise when eaten as an entree or large portion in the evening.  Do not eat too close to bedtime.  

7.   As one who wears a cpap, I've been told again and again, how to "transition" to sleep.  Stop screen time at least an hour before bed (tv, movies when we reopen, mobile, tablet, etc).  No big activity "hyping you up" close to bed time.  Sit in bed and read.   

8.  Is your bed or bedding materials too warm or too cool to the touch? Is your room too warm.  A bit cooler would help. Put a fan on your nightstand.

Dawn,  some of those might be hard under your circumstances.  Congrats on that!   But, the above would be optimal.

 

 

[Jaybee]

For post-menopausal me: Best to have no Diet soft drinks, though Stevia in (even caffeinated) teas doesn't seem to affect me (I do try to limit caffeine in the afternoons and evenings). Melatonin was not helpful, giving me nightmares and making me feel sluggish. Magnesium is helpful; however, it works best for me to take it in the morning rather than at night. Most helpful of all is using a CPAP machine. I don't care for wearing a mask, but my quality of sleep improved exponentially after I adjusted to using it, including cutting bathroom trips down from 3-4x/night to usually only 1x. If I can't have my machine with me for some reason, like being really congested or camping out, propping my head/shoulders up helps a lot.

[bethben]

13 hours ago, Seasider too said:

MTHFR mutation?

Yes-  I also have something called a COMT mutation - actually two of them.  I think they cause more chaos than the MTHFR mutation.  I'm getting a handle on them using the book called "Dirty Genes."

 

[bethben]

5 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

Oh thanks for the book rec! I am MTHFR and have mostly been doing my best to decipher journal articles. 

Ironically, I have found that I can't take methyl B vitamins which seems counterintuitive.  They make my sleep worse.  When I was working with my naturopath, she would give me a bunch of supplements to take to correct something or other.  My sleep would tank.  She figured out that I have to adjust to one supplement at a time.  It's been slow going.  My iron levels are also messed up which does affect my sleep and the reason I even looked for an MTHFR issue.  I'm technically not even following the advice about the MTHFR mutation in the book because I'm pretty sure my other genetic mutations are running the show and if I get those corrected, it will get a lot better.  That book has helped me a ton. 

[DawnM]

1 hour ago, Jaybee said:

For post-menopausal me: Best to have no Diet soft drinks, though Stevia in (even caffeinated) teas doesn't seem to affect me (I do try to limit caffeine in the afternoons and evenings). Melatonin was not helpful, giving me nightmares and making me feel sluggish. Magnesium is helpful; however, it works best for me to take it in the morning rather than at night. Most helpful of all is using a CPAP machine. I don't care for wearing a mask, but my quality of sleep improved exponentially after I adjusted to using it, including cutting bathroom trips down from 3-4x/night to usually only 1x. If I can't have my machine with me for some reason, like being really congested or camping out, propping my head/shoulders up helps a lot.

 

Wow, I wish my CPAP had been that helpful.  I wear it every night.  I still get up to go to the bathroom, my sleep quality isn't all that different, but it allows DH and me to share a room! 😜

[Jaybee]

2 hours ago, DawnM said:

 

Wow, I wish my CPAP had been that helpful.  I wear it every night.  I still get up to go to the bathroom, my sleep quality isn't all that different, but it allows DH and me to share a room! 😜

Ugh, I'm sorry. For a long time, sleep issues plagued me, but I didn't realize I had sleep apnea. I went through menopause, and had some symptoms I didn't realize were related to menopause. I had no idea anxiety was related, and for about 6-8 months, my anxiety levels shot through the roof. There were a lot of things going on around the same time that I think played into difficult sleep. There have been allergy issues. There was the anxiety issue. Going through menopause played havoc with my thyroid med levels, and they had to be adjusted down several times over several years. In fact, my doctor adjusted them down again in January, and though in response, my numbers dropped significantly to where I should have been having hypo- symptoms after having had hyper- symptoms, I've feeling really good. On my CPAP, I'm not having as many episodes after dropping my thyroid med level. So I think it can be crazy difficult to sort out. It doesn't seem to take much being out of whack to cause a big reaction when it comes to affecting sleep. I hope you can find a solution soon, because consistently running low on sleep is so miserable.

ETA: Using a CPAP may have made such a difference because I waited so long to get help. It had gotten so bad that all afternoon I dreaded going to bed at night because of the fight I had trying to sleep, and I was having a lot of anxiety about it. For the first time since--I don't know, maybe my 20's?--I usually fall asleep very quickly, and am again enjoying settling down to sleep.

Edited June 6, 2020 by Jaybee