The Mayor of Florence

[Negin]

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Edited March 25, 2020 by Negin

[appyonthebeach]

Yikes!

[Guest]

I think this is difficult, Negin. Of course it looks insane in retrospect, but there was still so much unknown Feb 4th. 

There’s a ton of disagreement in the US about the role of racism in this disease. There was a good bit of people in leadership positions calling it Chinese flu or a “foreign virus”, which many people feel is racist. I do think - just call it by its proper name! I also think “Chinese flu” should never have been used because a lot of people do not understand that “flu-like symptoms” does NOT equal a virus being the flu. Like, they don’t understand that the virus is genetically different from the flu. 

IMO, travel in and out of Europe should have happened earlier than it did (and I say this though it would have affected me). Some people used  the “racist” push-back on Chinese restrictions to defend that delay - “Well, restricting  travel from China gets you called a racist!” Well, in the first place, I don’t believe racism against Europeans is a big problem in the US, not to mention, a strong leader makes good decisions no matter if some segment will disagree. 

So. All that to say, I can sort of imagine the Italian minister thinking that way in early February. Italians are very physically demonstrative in general and so I think hugging to show solidarity would likely have fit into their general behavior. 

I share your opinions about hugging and touching people in general. I may never touch anyone again! I am also starting to see food differently; things like candy dishes for example, or a plate of cookies. After spending the last week keeping dd from potentially contaminating any of our food, I’m beginning to think differently about salt shakers or really any community condiment that is held over the food. 

Edited March 25, 2020 by Quill
Removing specific politics

[Ausmumof3]

I remember seeing complaints about something like that at the time because I’ve been trying to read a bit of news in Italian as part of trying to get my language skills up.  I guess one thing that maybe isn’t translating is that hugging and kissing is much more culturally normal there anyway?  Not that I’ve travelled to Italy but certainly seems that way.  

As for the flu shot bit, literally every doctor at the beginning of this whole mess was on TV talking about Coronavirus and concluding with “and get your flu shot”.  I know it isn’t the flu, but when every statement included that advice it is quite apparent to me where the confusion comes from.

I don’t think we should be unkind to anyone, but people are so quick to charge racism to shut down anything they don’t like whether it is legitimate racism or not.  Calling a virus by where it originated (or was believed to have originated) it not racist.  Do we honestly think calling the 1918 pandemic the Spanish flu racist?  It didn’t even originate in Spain. MERS - I don’t think that is racist either.  People just need to get a thicker skin against it because I doubt the behavior is going away anytime soon.  But still, hugging random people to show you aren’t racist in a health crisis (it wasn’t an official pandemic then) is really bad in retrospect, but rather dopey sounding at any moment as well.

Edited March 25, 2020 by Mom2mthj

[Guest]

58 minutes ago, Mom2mthj said:

As for the flu shot bit, literally every doctor at the beginning of this whole mess was on TV talking about Coronavirus and concluding with “and get your flu shot”.  I know it isn’t the flu, but when every statement included that advice it is quite apparent to me where the confusion comes from.

I don’t think we should be unkind to anyone, but people are so quick to charge racism to shut down anything they don’t like whether it is legitimate racism or not.  Calling a virus by where it originated (or was believed to have originated) it not racist.  Do we honestly think calling the 1918 pandemic the Spanish flu racist?  It didn’t even originate in Spain. MERS - I don’t think that is racist either.  People just need to get a thicker skin against it because I doubt the behavior is going away anytime soon.  But still, hugging random people to show you aren’t racist in a health crisis (it wasn’t an official pandemic then) is really bad in retrospect, but rather dopey sounding at any moment as well.

The thing is, there were a lot of things commonly accepted in 1918 that we now realize is either overtly or subtly racist. Remember, we still had segregation of blacks and whites legal everywhere. IOW, just because something was acceptable in 1918 doesn’t mean it should be practiced now, when we know better. 

It is, additionally, just much better to use a scientifically cogent name for something. For one thing, it helps address much of the confusion about Coronavirus being “the flu.” Some fool on FB circulated a meme saying COVID-19 actually stands for “Chinese Originating Viral Infectious Disease” and the 19 is “because it’s the 19th virus originating from China.” This is not only completely false and foolish, but it is subtly racist as well. (I.e., “China is responsible for ‘giving us’ 19 diseases.”) 

There is an uptick in abuse being heaped on Asian people in many places because of people thinking this way. 

[Paige]

Is there any evidence that hugging Chinese people spread the coronavirus? I feel it's still racist to assume that just because someone is Chinese that they are somehow more likely to have covid 19 unless they had just come from Wuhan. And Wuhan had plenty of foreign residents who may have fled back to their home countries and spread the virus. Was patient 0 in Italy a Chinese resident or a Chinese tourist, or Italian citizen who had traveled recently? 

Hugging anyone outside your immediate family during a pandemic is dumb, however. 

[Arcadia]

On Feb 4, non-Asian people here would have given me a hug just to show they care about the discrimination to Chinese which is less scary in my area with a big Asian population. I get hugs from American ex-colleagues, it’s not uncommon.

COVID19 has many asymptomatic carriers so can’t blame someone for not knowing and accepting a hug. 

[TCB]

25 minutes ago, Paige said:

Is there any evidence that hugging Chinese people spread the coronavirus? I feel it's still racist to assume that just because someone is Chinese that they are somehow more likely to have covid 19 unless they had just come from Wuhan. And Wuhan had plenty of foreign residents who may have fled back to their home countries and spread the virus. Was patient 0 in Italy a Chinese resident or a Chinese tourist, or Italian citizen who had traveled recently? 

Hugging anyone outside your immediate family during a pandemic is dumb, however. 

I can't give a link for this, so maybe shouldn't say, but I have heard that there are a number of industries in the northern part of Italy that are ? Chinese sponsored - not sure of how to describe it - but that have a number of workers who came from China to work in them, and this is one theory about how Covid-19 spread there so much, as workers were coming from China with some frequency.

[Arcadia]

3 minutes ago, TCB said:

I can't give a link for this, so maybe shouldn't say, but I have heard that there are a number of industries in the northern part of Italy that are ? Chinese sponsored - not sure of how to describe it - but that have a number of workers who came from China to work in them, and this is one theory about how Covid-19 spread there so much, as workers were coming from China with some frequency.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47679760

[Negin]

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Edited March 26, 2020 by Negin

[Negin]

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Edited March 26, 2020 by Negin

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Negin said:

We should be kind to all and this is not about racism. I wish that people would get a thicker skin. Everyone is so touchy these days, it seems. As soon as someone doesn't like what they're hearing, they scream, "racism". 

I do see that happening. I think, when people feel like they have seen a certain pattern of behavior, they leap to that conclusion more readily, even when it is not the case. That’s another one of those biases I can’t remember the name of. 

I will remove my specific political stuff. 

[ktgrok]

My DH has been in the stores, and WAS hearing a lot of racist sentiment about Chinese people while walking around, so there has been racism about it. Perhaps the mayor was seeing that in his area as well. And back then, beginning of Feb, most still thought that you had to be actually sick to spread it, so he probably assumed hugging people who were not sick was totally safe. 

Edited March 25, 2020 by Ktgrok

[Sneezyone]

14 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

My DH has been in the stores, and WAS hearing a lot of racist sentiment about Chinese people while walking around, so there has been racism about it. Perhaps the mayor was seeing that in his area as well. And back then, beginning of Feb, most still thought that you had to be actually sick to spread it, so he probably assumed hugging people who were not sick was totally safe. 

Was? I’m still hearing it. The online company I teach for had to send a blanket message to all of its North American teachers telling them not to use inflammatory language to describe the virus to CHILDREN during one on one English classes and there are multiple ‘teachers’ defending the practice.

Edited March 25, 2020 by Sneezyone

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Was? I’m still hearing it. The online company I teach for had to send a blanket message to all of its North American teachers telling them not to use inflammatory language to describe the virus to CHILDREN during one on one English classes and there are multiple ‘teachers’ defending the practice.

Well, we've been able to avoid the outside world lately, so I'm sure it is still there, we just haven't been out to hear it. 

[Corraleno]

It's definitely ongoing, and I'm afraid it's only going to get worse. 😥 Constantly referring to Covid-19 as "the Chinese virus" only pours gas on the fire, not to mention ticking off the government of a country that manufactures a lot of the critical equipment we need right now.

Spit on, Yelled at, Attacked: Chinese-Americans Fear for Their Safety

[Jean in Newcastle]

Giving support to those from Wuhan and to those who might have family there or might be facing discrimination was a lovely idea and good practice.  How it was executed in a time of global travel etc. was not.  So perhaps a lack of scientific literacy on the part of the Mayor of Florence? 

[JennyD]

1 hour ago, Danae said:

I’m hearing about it from Asian-American friends. And it is not subtle or them being over sensitive. A significant number of people don’t seem to realize that having been to China, not being Chinese, was the risk factor early on, and now that we have community spread even that is irrelevant. An Asian-looking person in the grocery store is no greater risk than any other person.

 

 

100% this  My husband is American-born Chinese and people have been steering clear of him on the bus for weeks. [We are not in the US, FWIW.]  My kids have been asked if they have corona countless times.  People see them on the street and say, "Oh look, a Chinese person.  Corona!"  Or "Oh look, a Chinese person.  Chinese people are the ones who gave us corona!"  

My husband has never been to China.  I am emphatically not in favor of hugging strangers and i am DEFINITELY not a fan of strangers hugging my husband, but in terms of corona risk it would be much safer for you to hug my husband than to hug me.  Because my husband has been staying home much more and for many more weeks than i have, in no small part because he knows that other people are scared of him.

Decisions to close off travel from China were completely appropriate and IMO the Chinese government's efforts to frame these decisions as racist were nothing more than panicked efforts to salvage their vast failure in addressing and containing the virus.  

The virus did not spread unchecked in Italy because a mayor encouraged residents to hug Chinese people.  And Italy did not fail to institute extensive testing, begin rigorous contact tracing, develop a tracking system, order ventilators and PPE, and expand hospital capacity because they were worried that doing these difficult, expensive things would be considered 'racist.'  They failed to do these difficult, expensive things because just like nearly every other country -- with the notable exceptions of the few countries who had already been through SARS -- they saw what was going on in China and thought, "Huh.  How sad."  And then just went on doing nothing until it was too late.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 25, 2020 by JennyD

[Terabith]

7 hours ago, Mom2mthj said:

As for the flu shot bit, literally every doctor at the beginning of this whole mess was on TV talking about Coronavirus and concluding with “and get your flu shot”.  I know it isn’t the flu, but when every statement included that advice it is quite apparent to me where the confusion comes from.

I don’t think we should be unkind to anyone, but people are so quick to charge racism to shut down anything they don’t like whether it is legitimate racism or not.  Calling a virus by where it originated (or was believed to have originated) it not racist.  Do we honestly think calling the 1918 pandemic the Spanish flu racist?  It didn’t even originate in Spain. MERS - I don’t think that is racist either.  People just need to get a thicker skin against it because I doubt the behavior is going away anytime soon.  But still, hugging random people to show you aren’t racist in a health crisis (it wasn’t an official pandemic then) is really bad in retrospect, but rather dopey sounding at any moment as well.

Plus, the Spanish flu didn't originate in Spain.  It originated in Kansas.  But because of WW1, the Spanish were the first to admit that it existed.  

[JadeOrchidSong]

8 hours ago, Paige said:

Is there any evidence that hugging Chinese people spread the coronavirus? I feel it's still racist to assume that just because someone is Chinese that they are somehow more likely to have covid 19 unless they had just come from Wuhan. And Wuhan had plenty of foreign residents who may have fled back to their home countries and spread the virus. Was patient 0 in Italy a Chinese resident or a Chinese tourist, or Italian citizen who had traveled recently? 

Hugging anyone outside your immediate family during a pandemic is dumb, however. 

Patient 0 in Italy is a 49 yr old Chinese woman professor of Marxism in a University in China who went to Italy for tour. She was just discharged after hospitalization in Italy. 

Chinese government owned New China News agency directed and videotaped the story of "I am not a virus, I am human" with a Chinese man who works for Chinese government in Italy with a blindfold and a face mask on the street of Italy. 

 

 

Edited March 25, 2020 by JadeOrchidSong
Don't want to engage in discussion any more.

[Sneezyone]

Referenced post deleted at the request of JOS.

I don't think 'crisis actors' have anything to do with North American teachers slamming the "Chinese virus" to little kids online who are still stuck at home. I've no doubt China is trying to rehabilitate its image through donations to African nations, etc. That doesn't absolve North Americans of their obligation to do better and not take the bait.

Edited March 25, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Arcadia]

19 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I don't think 'crisis actors' have anything to do with North American teachers slamming the "Chinese virus" to little kids online who are still stuck at home. I've no doubt China is trying to rehabilitate its image through donations to African nations, etc. That doesn't absolve North Americans of their obligation to do better and not take the bait.

This isn’t staged either in UK https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-51771355

“Two teenagers have been arrested on suspicion of attacking a student who was told: "We don't want your coronavirus in our country."

Jonathan Mok, 23, was attacked as he walked down Oxford Street at about 21:15 GMT on 24 February when a group of four males began shouting.

Mr Mok, from Singapore, said the group beat him up when he confronted them.

Both boys, aged 16 and 15, were arrested on suspicion of racially aggravated assault.”

[Jean in Newcastle]

Your hatred of the Chinese government is well documented on this forum. But a country’s citizens are not uniformly representative of their country’s government. I don’t live too far from Patty in an area with many Asians, many from China, Taiwan or Hong Kong in addition to those who are American born. And of course many from other  Asian countries. Unless you heard them speaking in Mandarin or Cantonese there is no way that you would know where they are “from”.
 

And yes I have seen frankly racist attitudes towards them. Not all of it has been since COVID19 has come on the horizon. Some was very evident here before due to some people feeling like the Chinese population was getting too large and was pushing them (mainly white Americans) out. I have always spoken out against those attitudes.
 

In my mind?  All people need to be treated with dignity and kindness. Science is important in handling a pandemic:  not fear, racism or blame. The government has a job in setting policy for immigration, trade and the handling of health crises etc but once people are in our neighborhoods we need to get to know them as people and not stereotypes. 

Edited March 25, 2020 by Jean in Newcastle

[JadeOrchidSong]

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Edited March 25, 2020 by JadeOrchidSong
Unrelated

[Sneezyone]

 

post deleted at the request of JOS.

Edited March 25, 2020 by Sneezyone

[JadeOrchidSong]

NM

Edited March 25, 2020 by JadeOrchidSong

[JadeOrchidSong]

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Edited March 25, 2020 by JadeOrchidSong

[Jean in Newcastle]

Saying that there is demonstrable racism against Chinese and other Asians in my area is not an attack on you.  Saying that we should treat all people kindly, regardless of their country of origin is not either. 

Edited March 25, 2020 by Jean in Newcastle

[JadeOrchidSong]

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Edited March 25, 2020 by JadeOrchidSong

[ktgrok]

8 minutes ago, JadeOrchidSong said:

You misunderstood. I condemn racism anywhere in any shape or form. I have no doubt racism against Asians exist. What I would like to show you is the lies China spread among Chinese in China and overseas and how they manipulated Chinese thinking. 

But...how does that have anything to do with how people treat those they think are Chinese here? Like, it isn't that big a deal for people to be attacking the Chinese because the Chinese hate the US anyway? I don't get your point. 

And of course they were buying and attempting to ship masks to loved ones - I would ahve done the same thing. In a heartbeat. 

[JadeOrchidSong]

NM

Edited March 25, 2020 by JadeOrchidSong

[Jean in Newcastle]

The mask problem in hospitals is a direct result of hospitals not looking ahead and planning for situations like this.  Or responding to what was happening in Wuhan.  If ordinary citizens could see what the need was and make a run on masks, then surely those in charge of hospital supplies could have anticipated the need even more.  (And while out of desperation some are now using "regular" masks in hospitals, they usually are not the same products.) 

 

30 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

The mask problem in hospitals is a direct result of hospitals not looking ahead and planning for situations like this.  Or responding to what was happening in Wuhan.  If ordinary citizens could see what the need was and make a run on masks, then surely those in charge of hospital supplies could have anticipated the need even more.  (And while out of desperation some are now using "regular" masks in hospitals, they usually are not the same products.) 

 

Hospitals should have more stock, but when the vast, vast majority come from China and they stop shipping we are in trouble.  All the more reason to get critical supplies (not just masks) out of China and back into this country as soon as humanly possible after this cools down.  Those people buying up masks in early January had knowledge that was not readily being relayed to the general public in the United States at that time.

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 minute ago, Mom2mthj said:

Hospitals should have more stock, but when the vast, vast majority come from China and they stop shipping we are in trouble.  All the more reason to get critical supplies (not just masks) out of China and back into this country as soon as humanly possible after this cools down.  Those people buying up masks in early January had knowledge that was not readily being relayed to the general public in the United States at that time.

I had the same knowledge they did at the same time. That’s why I was able to buy my respirator. 
 

Not only is 3M stepping up mask production, but Eddie Bauer is making N95 masks as well. 

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Jean in Newcastle said:

I had the same knowledge they did at the same time. That’s why I was able to buy my respirator. 
 

Not only is 3M stepping up mask production, but Eddie Bauer is making N95 masks as well. 

So did I. Not only did I know, I shared what I knew with others. Many people simply weren’t listening and/or were receiving their news from outlets that weren’t covering the issue.

I read about it here on the Wuhan thread, but people were already making runs on existing stock.  I could find some highly overpriced ones on amazon.  All of those were existing stock already in the USA.  I sincerely doubt China was shipping out hospital quantity orders at that point.

[Sneezyone]

 

24 minutes ago, Mom2mthj said:

I read about it here on the Wuhan thread, but people were already making runs on existing stock.  I could find some highly overpriced ones on amazon.  All of those were existing stock already in the USA.  I sincerely doubt China was shipping out hospital quantity orders at that point.

 

Did you expect they'd keep resupplying us when they needed them for their own population or something? I have seen that thought elsewhere on the board, like they were somehow 'hoarding' by not exporting items made in their own country.

2 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

 

 

Did you expect they'd keep resupplying us when they needed them for their own population or something? I have seen that thought elsewhere on the board, like they were somehow 'hoarding' by not exporting items made in their own country.

No I don’t, but Jean had argued that because she and someone else had been able to get masks that hospitals should have reacted to what was happening in Wuhan and ordered more masks.  My point was it was too late by point because no new stock was being added to the supply line.

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Mom2mthj said:

No I don’t, but Jean had argued that because she and someone else had been able to get masks that hospitals should have reacted to what was happening in Wuhan and ordered more masks.  My point was it was too late by point because no new stock was being added to the supply line.

I agree with you that it was too late for bulk buys from China but we may have been able to get them made here. I think the point tho was that hospitals and Healthcare companies have been operating on a just in time model WRT staffing and supplies that left them flat-footed.

[EKS]

5 hours ago, Terabith said:

Plus, the Spanish flu didn't originate in Spain.  It originated in Kansas.

No one knows where it originated.  FWIW, the person that came up with the idea that it originated in Kansas has since said that the evidence is now pointing towards China.

[Jean in Newcastle]

10 minutes ago, Mom2mthj said:

No I don’t, but Jean had argued that because she and someone else had been able to get masks that hospitals should have reacted to what was happening in Wuhan and ordered more masks.  My point was it was too late by point because no new stock was being added to the supply line.

If they had tried then and realized the problem then, they could have ramped up production at US companies like 3M  then.  And they could have sounded the alarm earlier and had places like Eddie Bauer or other companies help to meet the demand before it became an emergency. 

[Melissa in Australia]

Something like 80 % of the affected people in Australia got it while in USA and brought it to Australia.   USA were refusing to test/or in denial they had a problem/or (conspiracy theory going around.. trying to undermine the world economy) Aus were too stupid to close all travel from USA 

Should we start calling it the American flue?  How would USA citizens feel about that?