Balancing intense outsourced classes with everything else

[sea_mommy]

Update below.

This is the first year that I have outsourced any classes for my ds12.  He is currently taking Math, Science, and English (which includes reading, writing, and some public speaking).  They are intense.  Getting the work done for those 3 classes is taking up most of his day.  I was planning on working on other subjects with him, but I can't seem to fit everything in.

I'm a bit at a loss.  I was planning on working on other subjects with him, but I can't seem to fit everything in without making it into a super long and stressful day.  Feeling super guilty because I've dropped so many other things.  Any suggestions on what I should do?  

 

Edited February 22, 2020 by sea_mommy
Added update

[8filltheheart]

It sounds like the courses are not a good match for him.  3 courses should not be consuming a 12 yr old's day.  Is it possible that they are taking so much time b/c they are beyond his current functioning level? Or do the courses assign a lot of unnecessary busy work?

In terms of 

25 minutes ago, sea_mommy said:

I'm a bit at a loss.  I was planning on working on other subjects with him, but I can't seem to fit everything in without making it into a super long and stressful day.  Feeling super guilty because I've dropped so many other things.  Any suggestions on what I should do?

the fundamental question is what is the motivation to outsource?  Is it possible to reduce the number of outsourced classes in order to create more balance?  

[Jackie]

For this year, I would just let go of doing other things. The outsourced classes are covering all the core subjects except history. 

I find that most outsourced classes take at least twice as much time as the same things taught by me. Simply having the instruction and assignments structured for a group instead of targeted exactly at my one child takes a lot longer. Because of this, I’ve become really careful about outsourcing. We outsource when either I am not capable of teaching a subject, when having a group for discussion or projects is a specific benefit to the material, or for fun low/no homework “extras”. Otherwise, we cover the material ourselves.

[sea_mommy]

33 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

It sounds like the courses are not a good match for him.  3 courses should not be consuming a 12 yr old's day.  Is it possible that they are taking so much time b/c they are beyond his current functioning level? Or do the courses assign a lot of unnecessary busy work?

In terms of 

the fundamental question is what is the motivation to outsource?  Is it possible to reduce the number of outsourced classes in order to create more balance?  

How many hours per day should a 12 year old (7th grade) being doing?  I don't think that there is a lot of busy work.  He was definitely not used to this level of intense, of which I feel badly about.  I feel like most of this year has been learning how to manage his time, which he still struggles with.  The math has been difficult, but I have worked with the teacher and they have been helpful in adjusting his schedule a bit.  

We outsourced because ds needed to be around people more.  He's grown in a lot of ways and I can see that it's been a good thing.  

[8filltheheart]

My 7th graders spend 6-8 hrs on focused academic work.

[sea_mommy]

36 minutes ago, Jackie said:

For this year, I would just let go of doing other things. The outsourced classes are covering all the core subjects except history. 

I find that most outsourced classes take at least twice as much time as the same things taught by me. Simply having the instruction and assignments structured for a group instead of targeted exactly at my one child takes a lot longer. Because of this, I’ve become really careful about outsourcing. We outsource when either I am not capable of teaching a subject, when having a group for discussion or projects is a specific benefit to the material, or for fun low/no homework “extras”. Otherwise, we cover the material ourselves.

Thank you for the input.  Outsourcing is new to me, so I had no idea that it might take so much time.  And yet, I know that the material is engaging him (right before bed I found him reading the science book that he doesn't have to start until next week).  

I had also planned on history, spelling, grammar, typing, and computer.  Do I just abandon them completely?  Do some stuff over the summer?  Make sure that he does 1 hour of something extra per day just get some of it done?   

[8filltheheart]

How much time is he spending on those 3 subjects? I disagree with Jackie that 3 should cause all other subjects to be dropped. Spelling, otoh, might not be necessary for a 12 yo. 

My 7th graders cover history, grammar, religion, and foreign language in top of math, science, and English composition/literature.

Edited January 27, 2020 by 8FillTheHeart

[sea_mommy]

5 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

How much time is he spending on those 3 subjects? I disagree with Jackie that 3 should cause all other subjects to be dropped. Spelling, otoh, might not be necessary for a 12 yo. 

My 7th graders cover history, grammar, religion, and foreign language in top of math, science, and English composition/literature.

I'd say that he is spending around 6 hours (that does include our morning Bible time), but there is definitely some dawdling so I would say that it's not all focused time.  Sometimes when he's finished, he's pretty spent.  Maybe I should give him a short break (1/2 hour or something) and then expect another 1-2 hours for my other subjects?  

[Miss Tick]

Is he spending more than 6 hours a week on each of those 3 subjects?

You know, another option beyond dropping every thing else that you think is valuable would be to drop the outside English class for spring and add that to what you cover at home. I suggest dropping English because the math class has already adjusted his workload and he is reading the science book on his free time. Sure, it would mean that first semester was more expensive than you planned, but it is you back in control of his schedule and the scope and sequence of what he learns.

[sweet2ndchance]

Perhaps outsourced classes are not the right fit for him to get more social connections if they are causing him to have to pare down his academics that much. Maybe something more social focused like a club of some kind that interests him or sports or something else would get him the social time he craves without sacrificing academics.

Two hours a day for each of three subjects for a 12 year old sounds like either the instruction is above his level or he's wasting a lot of time. My 12 year olds were allow to waste all of their time they wanted but they were not allowed to waste my time. The school day went on as planned and they had to do any work they didn't finish as homework in the evening or on the weekends. It's amazing how much less dwadling there is when it is their free time that they are wasting and the amount of work is not reduced because of their dwadling.

Now if he has learning issues that truly affect the amount of work he is able to complete in a timely matter, that is a whole 'nother topic. But I also wouldn't outsource classes for that child unless the teacher is trained and able to work with children with learning disabilities.

I also wonder if some of the classes that he isn't getting to are truly necessary. Does he really need spelling or grammar? I cover those things in the context of their writing for other courses by 7th grade. Unless he is woefully behind in those areas or never studied any grammar or spelling, I would question my motives for giving extra time for those subjects in 7th grade. Does he need typing? My teenagers could type faster than me without ever having had a formal typing course. I don't care how they type honestly as long as they are reasonably fast (no hunt and peck) and able to proof read and correct their own typing. What are you calling "computers"? I took computers in school in the late 80s and early 90s but computers are so ubiquitous now and most kids can and have been using them since they were preschoolers usually. I don't see a computers course being terribly relevant to kids who have never known life without them. Unless he is doing coding or something but there again, if he is having so much trouble keeping up with core courses, perhaps that needs to be a hobby or side interest that he pursues on his own time for now.

Every child and every homeschool is different but if each subject is taking a neurotypical 12yo two hours a day, I would say something is definitely out of balance.

[teachermom2834]

I am assuming that these are local co-op classes. Is part of the issue that you are losing a day and trying to force a week's worth of work into four days? If you have any other activities during the schooldays throughout the week things could seem very overwhelming.

For many years we did a Thursday co-op that took up all of Thursday and was pretty tiring. Then Friday would roll around and all of us (possibly mostly me) just really struggled to get on the ball on Friday morning and get a good full school day in. So co-op  not only took up Thursday but impacted Friday as well. Add a midday activity on one of the other days and it really became very stressful and seemed like we were working all the time, more than we actually were. 

We now do not do a co-op and we have no activities before 4:00 in the afternoon. Getting 6-7 hours of schoolwork in doesn't seem like overload. So maybe just take a hard look at your schedule and your days and how they are structured? I agree that if those three classes are really taking two hours every day and you have no time for anything else the classes are not a good fit. I'm also one that is comfortable with dropping a class if it isn't working for us. Yes, wasted money but lesson learned and you don't have to waste time as well as money.

 

 

 

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

2 hours ago, sea_mommy said:

I'd say that he is spending around 6 hours (that does include our morning Bible time), but there is definitely some dawdling so I would say that it's not all focused time.  Sometimes when he's finished, he's pretty spent.  Maybe I should give him a short break (1/2 hour or something) and then expect another 1-2 hours for my other subjects?  

Are the classes 5 days / week? 

[Clemsondana]

We do most of our subjects at home, but I teach an outsourced class and my kids have taken academic outsourced classes (in addition to fun ones that are considered enrichment).  I see several possible explanations - maybe once you can figure out the cause, it will lead to a solution.  The classes could be badly designed or have an excessive amount of work.  The class could be a great class but be a bad fit for your student due to a mismatch in abilities - it requires a lot of reading from a slow reader, or is set as an 'advanced' class for a student who wants a regular amount of content.  The class could just be designed for students who want to spend a lot of time on the subject, which you don't want to do.  Your student could be wasting a lot of time.  Especially on computers, it's easy for students to click away for 'just a second' and lose 20 minutes.  Some online platforms let teachers see time usage, and parents are sometimes shocked to hear that the student who said he spent 2 hours on an assignment was 'clicked away' from the class page for 1 of those hours, all in short 5-15 minute bursts (there are legitimate reasons to click elsewhere for some assignments, but for others it helps to give an estimate of how much time is actually being spent on work).  The fact that it takes a lot of time could be a clue that there's a skill that needs to be worked on.  I have my kids take a co-op writing class somewhere around grades 4-6 just so that they can see that it's possible to get words on paper quickly.  The beginning is tough, but by the end they're not staring at a blank screen/page for an hour while saying that they've been working for a long time.  🙂  I also often see a couple of things come together badly as students get older.  For kids who are used to being done before lunch (which is fine for youngers) it can be an adjustment to hit  middle school and have work take longer...and then, when they're still working later than they think they should be, the dawdling gets worse as they get complain-y, which makes it take longer, leading to the drag it out all day death spiral of doom.  Not that I've seen this in person, in my own home, in addition to coming from my students.  🙂  

I'm sure there are other explanations, but I thought I'd throw these out there.  Depending on what you decide the cause it, you might choose to drop 1, 2, or all 3 classes and do it at home while finding other social outlets, use this as the incentive to learn to schedule time and work with more focus, have him track his time while you offer more supervision or even sit beside him for just a week or 2 to see how the time is being used and if there is any particular skill that, if learned, could speed everything up, etc.  Good luck sorting it out!  

[Lori D.]

12 hours ago, sea_mommy said:

How many hours per day should a 12 year old (7th grade) being doing?  I don't think that there is a lot of busy work.  He was definitely not used to this level of intense, of which I feel badly about.  I feel like most of this year has been learning how to manage his time, which he still struggles with.  The math has been difficult, but I have worked with the teacher and they have been helpful in adjusting his schedule a bit.  

We outsourced because ds needed to be around people more.  He's grown in a lot of ways and I can see that it's been a good thing.  

I think the hours of "should be doing" for 12yo will greatly vary from child to child.

I had very average/typical DSs who were NOT highly motivated/interested in academics or self-learning. They could handle about 5 to 5.5 hours of focused work a day in 7th/8th grades. Also, about 3 Fridays each month were shorter days (2 hours of work) so we could participate in our homeschool group activities.

We were extremely fortunate to have lots of things DSs could do for social interactions -- the homeschool group had a Student Council and the kids planned and executed 2 social activities and 1 volunteering activity per month. DSs also were involved with tennis, in our church's weekly youth group, and regularly got together with friends from church or homeschool group for doing social things. A lot of the homeschoolers in our support group had additional social activities with things like swim team/sports team, community youth theater, lessons of some kind (dance, martial arts, fencing, horseback riding) that they do together, or they did a book club or NaNoWriMo together... etc.

Here are a few past threads with some ideas for extracurriculars and socializing:
Advice for extracurriculars
Best recreational level extracurricular opportunities 
Once your child hits middle school, does all the 'fun stuff' stop?

Perhaps something there might be a better fit than taking classes (because it's usually hard to actually socialize in a classroom -- students are either focused on the instructor teaching or are responding to questions or for discussion -- not a lot of free interacting going on there... Just a thought!

12 hours ago, sea_mommy said:

Thank you for the input.  Outsourcing is new to me, so I had no idea that it might take so much time.  And yet, I know that the material is engaging him (right before bed I found him reading the science book that he doesn't have to start until next week).  

I had also planned on history, spelling, grammar, typing, and computer.  Do I just abandon them completely?  Do some stuff over the summer?  Make sure that he does 1 hour of something extra per day just get some of it done?   

Typing can be learned in about a semester or a little longer, in 10-15 minute bites 3-4 days/week -- so that's pretty easy to squeeze in -- stop whatever work you're doing 15 minutes before lunch, and he knocks it out right before lunch. 

Grammar can be done just 2-3x/week, in 15-20 minute bites -- just do selected problems, or stretch the program out over 2 years. I've also seen some people just do grammar every other year -- like 4th, 6th, and 8th grades.

Spelling is dependent on your student and how needed it is. Many students don't really need formal spelling beyond 6th grade. That was not us -- DS#1 was an average speller and we still worked on spelling (with a word root emphasis) into high school -- but it only took 10 min/day 4x/week. DS#2 had mild LDs in spelling, writing, and math, so we had to put in more remedial work on spelling all the way through high school -- we usually spent 20-25 min/day 4x/week on spelling. 

12 hours ago, sea_mommy said:

Make sure that he does 1 hour of something extra per day just get some of it done?   

That sounds like a good idea.

Can you schedule a reasonable/generous amount of time for doing the work for the outsourced classes in your daily schedule, and then when the timer goes off, just move on to your other subjects? And if he still needs to or wants to work on the outside classes, he can do that on his own time? Perhaps there is a lot of daydreaming and drifting and wasted time mixed in with doing the outsourced class work, so a timer and then moving on might help him stay more focused...

But I think it is extremely important in the middle school grades to be teaching study skills (so student learns how to NOT waste time), but equally important is to be modeling and teaching BALANCE as a lifestyle. JMO!

 

Okay warning: rant ahead (a general rant and NOT directed at OP!!), so you all might want to stop reading at this point, LOL!

 My personal thought is that the *typical* (NOT talking about academically driven or gifted/accelerated) 7th/8th grader does well with around 20-25 hours/week (4-5 hours/day) of academics, which allows for all the things going on at that age:
- solidify foundations skills (3Rs)
- able to dip a toe into higher level academics ONLY if/when the student is READY
- have regular time:
   to explore personal interests
   to be involved in extracurriculars
  for "down time" and "do nothing/fiddle around time" for brain and body recharging
  to build family, friend, and community relationships

All through high school I felt like I had to fight to keep balance in our lives, and to fight the tendency toward the prevailing idea that "we must do more academics so we can be college competitive"... I also think the trend toward extreme rigor (i.e. "do Algebra 1") in increasingly younger grades does a real disservice to students. End of rant. lol.


ETA -- LOL, I realized it took me so long to compose my thoughts for this post, others have already posted the same ideas, so I'm just echoing a lot of thoughts. 😉 

Edited January 28, 2020 by Lori D.

[Farrar]

Are these online courses? Are they level appropriate - meant for middle schoolers? What's the philosophy of the courses and why did you choose them? Are they intended to be intense or is he just finding them to be intense for him?

I often wonder when I hear about younger and younger students doing outsourced academics whether it's about doing the next thing before you need to. Like, I knew a family who were homeschoolers, but one kid didn't want college to be the first time he went to school, so he definitely wanted to go to high school. Except, then he was like, actually, what if high school is scary, I should really go to middle school. And the next thing you know, they were enrolling him in 5th grade at an elementary school. You don't actually need to do the thing before you need to do the thing, ya know? So while some specially chosen outsourced academics are great for high school... they're definitely not necessary before.

[Jackie]

12 hours ago, sea_mommy said:

Thank you for the input.  Outsourcing is new to me, so I had no idea that it might take so much time.  And yet, I know that the material is engaging him (right before bed I found him reading the science book that he doesn't have to start until next week).  

I had also planned on history, spelling, grammar, typing, and computer.  Do I just abandon them completely?  Do some stuff over the summer?  Make sure that he does 1 hour of something extra per day just get some of it done?   

 

I assume there is writing in his English class? If so, does his writing give evidence that he needs specific instruction in grammar or spelling this year? 

How is his typing? What is the purpose of teaching it? Proper ergonomics? Fluency/speed? Does he type for any of his classes? If so, how is he doing with it?

What do you mean by “computer”? Coding? Learning to use software such as word processors, spreadsheets, photo editors, etc?

I’m wondering if, for next year, you envision the same amount of outsourcing? More? Less? If less, then some of these subjects could be moved to next year’s schedule. Grammar does not typically need to be done yearly. Typing, as a skill, is best done for a short amount of time every day to build muscle memory, so I wouldn’t do it unless it can be committed to with frequency. Spelling may or may not be needed at all at this age, depending on the child. I know it is heresy to say this on a Classical board, but I think history can also be negotiable. At least, it can be minimized for a year, or done by listening to some great history-focused audiobooks. 

I didn’t catch it if you mentioned this already, but are the classes in person or online? Is there a good way to fill the social need next year if you outsource fewer classes? Are the current classes meeting the social need? We’ve had mixed results with outsourcing for social purposes, so it’s worth evaluating.

[Ellie]

14 hours ago, sea_mommy said:

We outsourced because ds needed to be around people more.  He's grown in a lot of ways and I can see that it's been a good thing.  

But that's what support groups are for, and things like 4-H and scouts.

[73349]

If you like everything about the outsourced classes except the time/energy suck, you might look at having more school days a year (assuming you are doing a traditional calendar now). I find that having 200-215 days means that each day can be a little lighter, but we can still get through appropriate course work.

[ktgrok]

23 hours ago, sea_mommy said:

Thank you for the input.  Outsourcing is new to me, so I had no idea that it might take so much time.  And yet, I know that the material is engaging him (right before bed I found him reading the science book that he doesn't have to start until next week).  

I had also planned on history, spelling, grammar, typing, and computer.  Do I just abandon them completely?  Do some stuff over the summer?  Make sure that he does 1 hour of something extra per day just get some of it done?   

Can you watch documentaries/videos as a family in the evening before bed to cover history/social studies this year? 

Spelling and Grammar should be part of English, in my mind. If he is spending 2 freaking hours a day on english already I would not add more. 

Typing is literally 10-15 minutes using one of the online programs, I'd add that in, have him do it first thing, or a as a mental break between other subjects maybe. 

If you mean something like coding or something, maybe do that over the summer if he is interested. 

But 2 hours per class per day seems like the classes are too much work or too hard. 

[Mbelle]

9 hours ago, whitehawk said:

If you like everything about the outsourced classes except the time/energy suck, you might look at having more school days a year (assuming you are doing a traditional calendar now). I find that having 200-215 days means that each day can be a little lighter, but we can still get through appropriate course work.

This. This method works well for us through 8th grade.  We do much lighter in summer, but keep going for about 6 weeks in June/July.  

We did do some electives in high school summers, but those were filling requirements for our state and mostly fun. 

edited: the other thing we did was 6 weeks on and 1 week off for all purely homeschooled classes.  The week off was to catch up on any work from outsourced classes or catch up from being sick or just take a breather week.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Mbelle

[Janeway]

I find when classes are outsourced, it is more difficult to figure out what the child needs to be doing, as in...how much time they need. This leads to a lot of their messing around and not doing a whole lot else. Plus, I find a lot of outsourced classes to give out a lot of work. People who home school and people who teach outsourced classes often do not get how little is done or taught AT a brick and mortar school. 

You seem to have listed every subject except history, foreign language, and electives like art. A 12 yr old in public school would not even likely have foreign language. He would have PE and then one elective. I would not worry about the lack of time to do other things. You can do history over the summer or just put it in when you have time. But I would look at his time management skills to make sure he is actually doing school work when he claims he is doing it. 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Janeway

[2_girls_mommy]

Like others, I've found co-op classes to assign a lot of work sometimes. When we had two outsourced core classes per year, they along with math took up the largest portions of each day. I had to purposefully say, ok, on Tuesdays, I'm doing read alouds because we have no outside activities that night. And i would read got hours on different subjects like history, biographies, literature, even art books. I got a lot of discussion on our home topics in during those once a week sessions and could check in on where they were in their assigned readings. I had them work on art projects while I read to cover another subject at the same time. And in the full day of co-op I made sure they had electives with the the core subjects that took some of that off of me and didn't require daily homework. 

[sea_mommy]

OP here.

Thank you so much for all of the responses--I really appreciate it.  I'm sorry that it has taken me awhile to respond--I've been processing and changing things around. 

As some suggested, I started to watch my son to see how he was using his time.  He was wasting SO much time!  Getting up to get a drink.  Sitting down.  Getting up again for a snack.  Sitting down.  Changing the font on a paper instead of actually writing the paper.  You get the point.  🙂  For 3 days, I called him out each time I saw him wasting time.  And then all of a sudden, he was done one day at 1pm.  And that has continued!  🙂  

We've been able to add in history (which he really likes), grammar (which I think he still needs a bit of), and some stuff on reading comprehension and he has still been done at around 2/3pm!  Plenty of time to still play and have fun.  I took to heart what many people said about maybe not needing some subjects and decided that his spelling is actually pretty good so I probably don't need to add it as a separate subject.  We'll do daily typing this summer to work on speed instead of adding it now.

Thank you so much!  I honestly don't think that I would have thought about time management without it being mentioned.  🙂  

[leahtalbot96]

I am not keen on the idea of outsourcing. 

We watch educational historical movies etc as a family and talk about social studies as well. A lot of our lessons are done at the dining room table under my close supervision. I plan to add in typing next school year, we will see what happens to that idea. I think that intensive outsourcing kills a child's natural desire to play and plus I need some down time from homeschooling too. What is your goal with the typing? Speed or fluency? 

Instead of outsourcing that, you can have him type up letters. Additionally, there are free online games that help you work on your typing skills. I recommend googling to see what you can find. Homeschooling is supposed to be flexible, the beauty of homeschooling is that you can try out different options to see what works best for your family.