Terrible Twos, five-year-old edition.

[Noreen Claire]

DS5 is the fourth boy out of five. I had not had a "terrible two" until he came along; his twos were hard and his threes were harder. He is also the LOUDEST CHILD I have ever met (his hearing is perfect, it's just his personality). He chilled out quite a bit around four, but has just gone off the rails lately. He is suddenly full of sass and back-talk, constantly arguing with his brothers, starting fights, hitting, calling names, and being disobedient. It is causing the other boys to react in-kind, and it is just getting out of hand.

We are trying to get back into our routine this week, now that DH (public school teacher) has gone back to work and the holiday excitement is over. I will make sure that he gets his dedicated one-on-one time with me every day during school time, and add in a bit more later on in the evening with either myself or DH. I am trying to find him real work to do around the house, which he loves. He is going outside as much as possible, with it being winter in the northeast, and plays kindy basketball one night a week. He gets plenty of sleep, takes a multi-vitamin and vit D, and eats very well. He is prone to night terrors when he's sick, but he hasn't had them in a while. He might be cutting molars, as he's been putting his fingers in his mouth for a while, but I'm not sure. He was recently tested for articulation issues and has started speech therapy, though he has an extremely advanced vocabulary and everyone here can understand him just fine.

I was already reading Transforming the Difficult Child by Richard Glasser, ironically, for help with other children. What else can I do? Books that you can recommend? Anything else to look for that I'm missing?

 

[sassenach]

I second swimming. I think it saved my life with ds. My first thought is to shove more food at him. But 5 is a tough age ime.

[Noreen Claire]

I would love to put the younger four boys (10, 7, 5, and 3) into swimming, but the only option for that around here is really expensive. We could *probably* work it, but my husband's eye starts to twitch when the budget is tight. The McDonald's playplaces around here have all been torn down, and the trampoline park up the street is also pricey. *sigh* I hate winter!

[prairiewindmomma]

That's a fantastic book.  

Routine, routine, routine.  

I'd also really work on consciously talking about self-regulation. Zones of Regulation helped my kid put words to feelings. Being able to talk about what tools an individual has to manage feelings (aside from hitting, fighting, etc. which are obviously not ok) is really important. I don't know if he likes Daniel Tiger, but I think the only reason Youngest is somewhat civilized is being she watched Daniel Tiger.  We would talk about episodes and then practice skills. Being able to talk through conflict management took a lot of work, but getting to the point of being able to pause and use words appropriately and see other points of view was HUGE. 

[Noreen Claire]

I could possibly put my kids in open swim if we joined the YMCA that is 15min from here. But, when would be the best time of the day to go? Would it be better earlier, or after lunch/school?

Breakfast here is around 7:30 most days. DS10 and DS7 school M,T,R,F from 8 to 2, including breaks and lunch. Wednesday mornings is speech therapy for DS5, then we go to the library until lunch. We usually have quiet time from around 2-4pm each day. Dinner is at 5pm, the kids take turns with the tv from 6-7:30, then snack and bed.

[Pen]

Great book- wish I’d found it younger!

possibly also celebrate calm website/podcasts and maybe Parenting Protocol: Love, Guide, Let Go by Barry Neil Kaufman https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01G7NGTC6/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_lcufEb6XM3Z47

 

I think various types of energy outlets easily available at most times at home would help.     Are jump rope (uses lots of energy), and swing (doesn’t use much energy but calms some kids) of some sort possibly available?  

Or bike of some sort if safe? Or running? 

Or Shoveling snow off paths?  Hammering nails into a log?

[Arctic Bunny]

To this day,, on my kids’ birthdays, I joke with them that they’re not turning whatever, they are still 4.

I was so upset the day I realized my oldest was turning 5, because I had never met a 5yo I liked! Although those years turned out to be okay, I still think there is just something about 5!

[Katy]

I heard a mom recently say any form of screen time seemed to cause attitude in her 5 year old.   I wonder if it's the change in routine from the holidays more than anything else.

This too shall pass.

[MercyA]

No food dyes (artificial colors, "coloring added," Red 40, Yellow 5, Blue 1, etc..) or annatto (a natural food coloring). 

[Tap]

I would put more physical activity into the schedule where ever you can get it.  I wouldn't worry about a perfect time, Look at the schedule at the Y and see what you can make work, even if you need to move something else to do it. 

[J-rap]

Have you tried creative activity?  I was surprised at how much creative activity seemed to use up excess brain energy in my kids.  For example:  art projects at home, creative activities through community ed, music lessons, local community theater, etc.

I'll say that for one kid in particular, finding complex creative outlets was truly life changing.  It's like it used up every excess energy cell he had (and he seemed to have a lot!) -- in all domains, and was very fulfilling for him as well.  This has continued into his adulthood.

[amyx4]

I have boys and it's winter here. What are they doing from 2-4:00? Unless one kid really needs that much down time, I would like to encourage you to think about replacing  some of that time with physical activity.

Some YMCAs have a sliding scale based on income. Ask other local moms what available in your area for physical activity.

[Noreen Claire]

21 minutes ago, amyx4 said:

I have boys and it's winter here. What are they doing from 2-4:00? Unless one kid really needs that much down time, I would like to encourage you to think about replacing  some of that time with physical activity.

Some YMCAs have a sliding scale based on income. Ask other local moms what available in your area for physical activity.

They have, since giving up their naps, had quiet time alone in designated rooms to listen to audiobooks, play with toys, puzzles, or single-player games, or use simple art supplies. They look forward to this time and I think they appreciate the time apart from each other (it's a small house, and they share bedrooms). DS5 does occasionally ask to start or end his quiet time outside, and I always agree. 

I'm still looking into opportunities for indoor exercise. DH teaches a night class twice a week through most of the year, so we could do something after quiet time those days before/after dinner.

[Noreen Claire]

4 hours ago, J-rap said:

Have you tried creative activity?  I was surprised at how much creative activity seemed to use up excess brain energy in my kids.  For example:  art projects at home, creative activities through community ed, music lessons, local community theater, etc.

This will be easier when he's older, but there isn't much available for a five year old around here. He's very imaginative, so he's got a box of hand puppets and stuffed animals in his room that he can use, and I swap out Duplos and castle blocks, plus they just got a Playmobil castle set for Christmas.

[Noreen Claire]

Maybe it's because he's on the verge of reading? He's starting to sound out simple CVC words with me. DS7 always had a regression in behavior when he had a cognitive growth spurt. 

The only treatment for that is time...and more chocolate and alcohol for mom!

[J-rap]

1 minute ago, Noreen Claire said:

This will be easier when he's older, but there isn't much available for a five year old around here. He's very imaginative, so he's got a box of hand puppets and stuffed animals in his room that he can use, and I swap out Duplos and castle blocks, plus they just got a Playmobil castle set for Christmas.

That's true, it'll be easier when he gets older...  But it does sound like he has a good imagination, so at some point that will probably take up more of his energy!

[Noreen Claire]

10 hours ago, MercyA said:

No food dyes (artificial colors, "coloring added," Red 40, Yellow 5, Blue 1, etc..) or annatto (a natural food coloring). 

Very little of this in the house, though I'll have to keep my eyes out for annatto.

[Noreen Claire]

14 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

When the older two are doing school, what is your 5yr old doing?

Before the holiday break, I would work with DS5 first, then he would play with DS3 while I worked with the older two. I would switch out crafts and fine motor activities at the kitchen table for the two of them to work on without me. He would do a phonics lesson (OPGTR), a logic puzzle, a handwriting page, and as many math pages (Singapore) as he wanted. 

I'm going to tweak the schedule to more of a 'one room schoolhouse' type plan, where we will all do the same subjects at the same time. Maybe, if he's doing 10-15 minutes of work every hour, spread through the morning, rather than all at once, it might help. 

[Jaybee]

Would a rebounder for kids help? If you have a small house, it might be hard to find a place for it. But if you do have room, maybe you could have him jump on it to "get the antsies out" when he gets too unruly.

[Noreen Claire]

10 minutes ago, Jaybee said:

Would a rebounder for kids help? If you have a small house, it might be hard to find a place for it. But if you do have room, maybe you could have him jump on it to "get the antsies out" when he gets too unruly.

I look at these every so often, and they look good *in theory*. In practice, I would have four boys fist-fighting over who gets to use it. These kids fight over the piano, seats on the couch (we have three couches, for crying out loud!), the bottle of ketchup...you get the picture. Sadly, I'm pretty sure that it would cause more problems than it would solve.

[Pen]

54 minutes ago, Noreen Claire said:

I look at these every so often, and they look good *in theory*. In practice, I would have four boys fist-fighting over who gets to use it. These kids fight over the piano, seats on the couch (we have three couches, for crying out loud!), the bottle of ketchup...you get the picture. Sadly, I'm pretty sure that it would cause more problems than it would solve.

 

At  one point when I was in elementary school a teacher stopped all ordinary subjects and had us all work on basics like cooperation, sharing, walking safely and quietly on the stairs.

and with my son, he spent awhile in Waldorf before homeschooling.  There were a lot of problems there, but one thing I think they did right was having fewer of various toy etc items than kids so that the kids had to learn either to take turns or to share or to cooperate or to rotate or some other strategies for dealing with limited desired resources

They also often needed some adult help to figure it out. 

[caedmyn]

Th book (or blog) Raising Lions has been helpful for my strong-willed and intense boys.  

[prairiewindmomma]

18 hours ago, Noreen Claire said:

I look at these every so often, and they look good *in theory*. In practice, I would have four boys fist-fighting over who gets to use it. These kids fight over the piano, seats on the couch (we have three couches, for crying out loud!), the bottle of ketchup...you get the picture. Sadly, I'm pretty sure that it would cause more problems than it would solve.

Whoa. 

That five year old would be by my side because he needs help controlling his reactions. How is his social thinking?

[Noreen Claire]

I don't know what you mean by 'social thinking'?

45 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

How is his social thinking?

 

[prairiewindmomma]

Social thinking is that process his brain goes through where he interprets social interactions. What is this other person’s intent? What do they want from me? What are they feeling? What should I do as a result? What am I feeling? What do I want? How do I get this other person to behave in a way that I want? 

[prairiewindmomma]

So, if your five year old thinks that his siblings are out to get him, and his only tool is physical dominance over them...that’s a problem.

[Noreen Claire]

Hmmm. That gives me something to think about. My first thought would be that he would like to have more control over what goes on in the house; being the fourth out of five and not the baby is probably a tough place to be. 

[Farrar]

One of the things your post makes me think of... ugh... I forget all the right terms for this... but there's some thinking in neuroscience that brain development goes in these different stages and cycles. There's growth and then there's integration. So during the growth period everything looks wild - kids may regress a bit but also get new skills (like that reading). Their energy is all over the place. Then you get the integration where they're not growing so much, but all that growth is getting integrated and they're practicing the new stuff and implementing it and just generally calmer. The way you describe him made me think of that - that it sounds like he's in that growth stage and that for him, it's just more pronounced and wilder than for your other kids.