Talk to me about martial arts

[SeaConquest]

My oldest (10) is saying that he wants to get a black belt. I've told him that this takes 5+ years of training, and he says that he is serious about it, but I'd like to know what we should be looking for before we commit somewhere. He seems to be gravitating toward kung fu. What types of questions should I be asking when I look at studios? What advice would you give a newbie in just starting out?

We are in San Diego, so have our choice, more or less, in styles, etc. I am trying to find a good fit for him. There are two kung fu studios within a few minutes of our home. One is Northern Shou Shu and the other is Choy Li Fut Kung Fu.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

[Farrar]

What I've learned is that it can be tricky to find a low-medium level commitment for martial arts once kids are past early elementary. Many studios charge a single fee per month and then you can take as many classes as you like at your level. Great if you'll use it a lot, less great if you just want a single class before you fully dive in. So pay attention to the per class cost overall, how much you'll really use it, and what the attitude is about how many classes per week is the norm and whether it's your norm. One low level way to try it out can be rec center classes if they're available. They're often cheaper and less commitment than a studio.

I've also learned that one studio to another often doesn't transfer well at all. It seems like every studio has their own system. Even the order of the belts can be different from studio to studio. So you ideally want to start where you want to stay. 

It also seems to vary a great deal how age groups are done. Since kids of the same age can be at different belts and kids of the same belt can be really different ages, the groupings can be really different depending on the studio or class. Make sure the way they do the groupings is one you like and are comfortable with. Often teens, even pretty young ones, are in with the adults.

[itsheresomewhere]

Each place can make their own curriculum but follows ( supposed) the standards.  So one place may have different belts than another.  Our place takes kids from other studios but tests them after a month to see where they are at.  We left one studio for this place and my kids had to start over as they weren’t taught what they should have been.  

Ask how often testing is and the fees for it. Some places can break you with the testing fees. Ask if those fees include the belt ( some don’t).  Personally, I like the places that after a few sessions for free while you are considering them.  It gives you time to see if it is a fit especially with instructors. One place we tried had a lovely guy but I think he thought he explained himself well but didn’t.  It was like he said stuff in his head but not out loud. If the school says they expect all to get a black belt in two years, run.  That is new thing going on around here and honestly it is wrong on so many levels.  These kids then try another school and find out they were not really at black belt level.  

Ask on your local Facebook groups for any recommendations.  They tend to be pretty honest. 

I hope your son finds a place he fits and enjoys.  

Edited April 23, 2019 by itsheresomewhere

[Katy]

Do you know anyone locally who can tell you the reputation of such places?  Because like anything else, some of them are more reputable than others.

Has he explained why he wants to try Kung Fu?  Is it something he heard about online or in movies?  He should definitely look into Brzilian ju jitsu as well.

Many places will let you either observe a class or take one-two free classes.  Perhaps call the studios or check their websites and see if that's the case near you.  Go with, see how you feel about them and what your gut says.

[ashfern]

Most places will have a trial class where you can see how the instructor interacts with the kids and what they teach. If he wants to get to black belt then you will need to stay at the same dojo. Our first experience was awful. The people there couldn't teach. He just expected the kids to know what to do by following him and his wife/co-owner seemed like she hated kids. We switched to a new place and loved it. We've been there for 12 years! My son earned his 3rd degree black belt last year and my oldest daughter is testing for her 2nd degree this weekend. They do American style karate.

[SeaConquest]

35 minutes ago, Katy said:

Do you know anyone locally who can tell you the reputation of such places?  Because like anything else, some of them are more reputable than others.

Has he explained why he wants to try Kung Fu?  Is it something he heard about online or in movies?  He should definitely look into Brzilian ju jitsu as well.

Many places will let you either observe a class or take one-two free classes.  Perhaps call the studios or check their websites and see if that's the case near you.  Go with, see how you feel about them and what your gut says.

 

He went to some trial private lessons at the Choy Li Fut studio about two years ago and liked it, but I don't think we have any basis for comparison. I get the impression that the place is known for nickel and diming people, though. We are also going to look at a BJJ studio that is owned by a homeschooling mom. I'm just not sure how much he wants to spend all of his time on the mat. I think part of what appealed to him about kung fu was the weapons and that it was not so based on grappling.

[Garga]

My sons did hapkido for 6.5 years and stopped about 3 weeks ago.  They didn't get their black belts in that amount of time, but they also didn't practice at home.  Other kids who started at the same time, or later than them, did get black belts and it usually takes about 5 or 6 years.  However, black belts for kids is different from black belts for adults, at least at the place we've used.  So, if they want to get a black belt at an adult level, there is more to learn to get up to the adult level.  However!  Kid black belt is nothing to sneeze at!  Seriously!  A black belt as a kid means you can protect yourself against adults bigger than you.  Those black belt kids are fierce.

The studio that we go to lets you take 2 weeks of classes for free to really get a feel for if this is for you or not.

The classes are broken down by age range, not by skill.  For example, I just started hapkido lessons for myself 3 weeks ago (when the boys stopped, I now had the money for me to take lessons). 

I am in the adult class, age 18 and up, though the class before me is for teens aged 13 through adult.  Sometimes an adult will also attend the teen/adult class and that's fine.  My sons are teens and usually there are other teens in the class, but sometimes adults pop in, too, for a lesson.  They tend to match people up by skill OR size.  So a tiny 13 yo is not matched against a 6' tall man.  My son's friend is over 6 feet at age 16, so he might get matched with an adult, but my youngest son is only about 5'1, so he gets matched with another teen.

For my class, there are 2 other white belts with me (newbies) and there are other people will all level of belts, up to adult black belts.  We all do the same warm up exercises (jumping jacks/pushups, etc) together and then we break into groups of 2 or 3.  

On my first 3 lessons, I was grouped with a woman about my same size, but many belts ahead of me.  In my 4th lesson, I was teamed up with a different woman who is also many belts ahead of me, but also with a moderate-sized man who is a black belt.  The other white belts in my class are men and they were grouped with other men their size, but at higher skill levels.

How does it work for a brand new person to be grouped with a  higher level belt?  How does each person learn at their level?  What happens is that the instructor is constantly circling the room and you do take turns practicing the skills you are learning with your partner.  For example, in my very first lesson, the instructor taught me three ways to break a hold on my wrist and then he moved on to help another group.  At that point, my partner would grab my wrist and I'd practice breaking away.  If I did it wrong, she would help me hone my new skill since she was farther along than me in the process.  When I'm farther along, I'll be expected to help the new person, too.  It reminds me of coming here as an experienced homeschooler and helping out someone who has a question.   

But, after I had practiced for a few minutes, then she practiced her new moves: she told me to (gently) shove her shoulder, and she practiced three different moves where she'd grab my hand when I shoved her (she was FAST) and then twist my fingers/wrists around.  I didn't have to do anything except be the person she practiced on.  Since I didn't know the moves, she would sometimes ask the instructor to come back over to help her hone the skill and he'd give her a tip and then she'd practice with me some more.

And of course, that could be different in different locations!  

For us, the place where we go has stellar reviews from everyone.  I have never heard a single person say anything bad about them, so this is the one we use.  We heard that by word-of-mouth, so I'm not sure how you find out if you don't have access to a word-of-mouth underground.  That might be where having a few free lessons kicks in or maybe there are online reviews you could read.

I don't know if any of this is helpful or if anything I've written will be true at the places around you.  But in case it is helpful, I'm tossing it out there.  

 

 

Edited April 23, 2019 by Garga

[Carrie12345]

Ask lots of other parents.

I loved so much about the place we used, but they started tacking on so many things so very quickly.  Belt tests were much more frequent than they let on and, despite their insistence that it could be “optional”, none of the kids want to “fall behind” the others in their classes.  And THEN they started holding tests at a fancy resort and that chapped my hide even more.

They also ran dirt cheap “hook ‘em” promotional trials so often that there’d be 6 weeks of overcrowding for every 10-12 weeks of classes.

It was a terrible shame, because my kids really did love it and the classes (when not overcrowded) were awesome.

[Meriwether]

There is a lot to consider when choosing a style and school. I'm sure you will get lots of advice.

One of the things I would look for at this point if we moved to a new location is how active the school is at higher levels. Is there a large, encouraging group of 2nd degrees and higher? The % of kids who start martial arts and make it to black belt is very small.

Classes: I'd look for some flexibility and variety in classes, but that may be because it is what we are used to. My black belts attend a core class, a couple of sparring/combat classes, leadership class, competition team class, and occasionally extreme class in any given week. Depending on what else is going on with each participating family member, they attend 1-6 classes per week.

Cost: 😭😭😭 It probably isn't going to be cheap, regardless, but things tend to grow. Classes are reasonable for us. It is $2-$3/person/class with the family discount. It still costs, though. Then there are belt testings, sparring gear, tournaments (if you get into them), uniforms, etc. We spend roughly the same on martial arts that we do on food any given month. The only expense that is significantly more is for us is our mortgage. That is for 6 family members, though, four of whom are competitive, and we attend tournaments in 8 states.

Promotion standards: Standards are obviously going to be lower for young kids (my Dd4 isn't fabulous at forms LOL), but by the time the kids get to 7 or 8+ they should be legitimately earning any belt they get. Some schools give out belts too easily. Some disciplines take a long time to earn a belt. That isn't necessarily bad, but it might get discouraging.
 

[Terabith]

Don’t worry too much about styles.  Visit a bunch and choose the one with the best instructor and culture.  

[mathnerd]

My son started when he was very young and he has been at it for 8+ years now. Black belt is a long term commitment. 

We were unhappy with the first studio and that is how we learned that popular places are not really what suits my son’s learning goals.

some advice:

A lot of them are black belt factories who will take your money gladly for teaching little and without upholding standards. My experience has been with tae Kwon do. Look for a style that has affiliations to international organizations which have strict standards on curriculum and black belt testing. For tkd, the kukkiwon is the university in Korea that hands out diplomas for black belts. Karate styles could have such organizations with standards, perhaps. The advantages to choosing such styles are the ability of the student to transfer to another studio later, continuing their education lifelong, availability of competitions, learning “standardized curriculum” from certified masters.

my son does a lot of tkd. I can answer specific questions if you are interested.

[Ausmumof3]

My kids recently quit sadly.  Well to be honest it’s a huge relief in terms of family logistics but we’d invested a lot of time and money and ds was at brown belt so probably approx two years off black. 

I think it’s probably better to go in with the mindset of wanting to learn the martial art than wanting to get a black belt specifically.  Black belt is not really the end of the run - they continue training and earning different levels etc beyond that.  

We found that at the kid level the instructor was pretty gentle and nice but once ds12 moved into the adult class the expectations jumped a huge amount and he no longer enjoyed the class.  He stuck at it another 12 months but really hit a wall. The younger two decided to give it a break so we’ll see if they ever go back.

one of the issues for us was time commitment.  It starts at two nights a week, but as you get toward the top belt levels they start wanting extra state trainings and weekly high level trainings at venues that were like an hours drive away.  Also as already stated it’s expensive.  Fees for classes, fees for uniform possibly fees for grading and fees for belts.  My kids wanted to do a few other sports as well but it was kind of all consuming.

also the ceremonial aspect etc kinda drove dh a bit nutty.  It didn’t bother me but he can’t stand that kind of thing. 

For all that I definitely thing it’s a good and worthwhile thing to invest time and money into but I would set realistic goals about what you’re hoping to achieve.

[happypamama]

My three oldest kids have been taking hapkido at the same school as Garga's for five years.  They took one class a week for about two years, with other homeschoolers, and then the older two added a second class in the evening, where they work with teens, and occasionally adults.  The instructor generally matches up by size, ability, and age, as much as possible.  The higher belts know not to be too rough on the lower ones, and the lower ones progress quickly when they work with higher ones.  My daughter flew through her beginner belts because the only other older girl in the class was much higher, so they worked together often.  My third child was five when he started, so he almost never worked with my big two but with kids more his own size.

 

Definitely not black belt in two years.  I believe our instructor told us minimum of three, and that's with a couple of classes a week and lots of practice time at home.  My 14yo son just got his junior black belt a couple of weeks ago.  In a year or two, he will have learned the catch-up skills that are in the adult curriculum (for teens on up) that he hasn't learned yet, and he should have his full black belt well before he's 18.  My daughter has been in the adult curriculum for several years, so she will never get the junior black belt, just the full one.  But as Garga said, I wouldn't want to go up against my junior black belt either, even though I outweigh him -- he is quick and skilled!

 

Observe the instructor.  I have rarely heard ours yell.  They are firm but never harsh, and it is obvious that they care about the kids.  Yes, it's a business, but it is also a family.  I couldn't ask for better.  When I asked where to go, everyone recommended that place.  I probably drive past at least a dozen MA schools to get to ours (40 minutes), and it's worth it.   You can't buy that reputation, so ask around.

 

Do check about fees for belts and testing.  Black belt fees can be several hundred dollars, but you may or may not have to pay all of that all at once.  (My son got his new jacket along with his junior BB, but he won't get the big certificate and registration with the organization until he's a full BB, so that does help.  Some places you have to pay for a ceremony/dinner, flying someone in to test, etc.)

 

I personally chose ours for the reputation and because their friends were there, but I also was pleased that the focus is on self defense.  There are no competitions.  Also, make sure that any meditation or character training is from a religious perspective that fits your beliefs.

[maize]

My kids go to a place that does mixed martial arts, primarily Shotokan Karate and Tae Kwan Do. I would say more than the style it is the instructors and owners who make or break a martial arts experience. This place has been fabulous for my kids--the instructors really care about the kids, the focus is on helping everybody succeed. For each belt level kids have to learn at least one Japanese (shotokan) form and one Korean (Tae Kwan Do) form; also at least one weapons form (they learn different weapons over time) and basic kicks, punches, grappling, and self defense moves. My kids love the weapons stuff--they do bo staff, nunchaku, sais, and kamas; the black belts use swords as well. Kids can progress through the early belt levels fairly quickly if they are motivated, testing happens once every three months. Instructors won't push them through fast at the higher levels though, it just takes more time to achieve the level of performance they expect.

[Frances]

On 4/23/2019 at 4:14 PM, mathnerd said:

My son started when he was very young and he has been at it for 8+ years now. Black belt is a long term commitment. 

We were unhappy with the first studio and that is how we learned that popular places are not really what suits my son’s learning goals.

some advice:

A lot of them are black belt factories who will take your money gladly for teaching little and without upholding standards. My experience has been with tae Kwon do. Look for a style that has affiliations to international organizations which have strict standards on curriculum and black belt testing. For tkd, the kukkiwon is the university in Korea that hands out diplomas for black belts. Karate styles could have such organizations with standards, perhaps. The advantages to choosing such styles are the ability of the student to transfer to another studio later, continuing their education lifelong, availability of competitions, learning “standardized curriculum” from certified masters.

my son does a lot of tkd. I can answer specific questions if you are interested.

 

I hope you will find a style and school that works well for your son. Hopefully there are lots of places near you that will let him try several classes for free before committing. 

Edited April 25, 2019 by Frances

[SeaConquest]

So much great advice in here! Thank you all for taking the time to share your experiences with me! I did post on my local SD Mom FB group, which has like 20K members, but have not gotten much advice. I think the group is just too big and the area too spread out. We have so many quality places, I am sure. These are a couple that I am strongly considering:

The Choy Li Fut place:

https://www.whitedragonmartialarts.com/

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLOQfUxVYJrgT3M42mSMkkw

They are the place that my son went before and really liked. He loves that he can learn not just the kung fu forms, but also the weapons. I know this place is going to be pricey. But, as was mentioned above, they have many locations in SD, so that does mean that he can train with lots of people. The main driver re price at this place is the number of private lessons you choose. All plans cover unlimited classes at any location, but the plans vary in price depending one whether you choose one private per month, every two weeks, or weekly. I believe it is an annual commitment, but I can't recall. It has good reviews, but definitely feels like a business.

There is also a BJJ place that is run by a homeschooling mom that is well regarded:

http://thestrongholdsd.com/

https://www.instagram.com/thestrongholdsd/?hl=en

I really like the owners. I would like to support them. They seem legit in the BJJ world. My issue is that I am just not sure that my kid is all that interested in grappling. 😞 The advantage is that we can get a family membership for all 4 of us for $250 -- so everyone could get in kick a** shape. 

The smallest of all the places, but also the closest to us is Red Dragon, which teaches northern Shou Shu. They seem to be affiliated with some other places around the country, but not too many. Our studio is the one in Pacific Beach:

https://reddragonshoushu.com/ 

https://martialartspacificbeach.com/

Not sure if any of this is helpful.

Edited April 24, 2019 by SeaConquest

[SeaConquest]

Oh, also, I should clarify. The wanting to earn a black belt thing came mostly from him and I talking about what it would take for him to get into one of the service academies. Since he is a homeschooler, I said that he would have to prove his athletic chops, since he would not be a varsity athlete. He mentioned martial arts and I said that earning his black belt would be one of the ways that he could prove his athleticism to the academies. So, it really came from that conversation. It wasn't like a bucket list item kinda thing. He really has been expressing interest in training for several years, but I am just now getting to the point where I am thinking of supporting him for the long haul.

[Frances]

3 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

Oh, also, I should clarify. The wanting to earn a black belt thing came mostly from him and I talking about what it would take for him to get into one of the service academies. Since he is a homeschooler, I said that he would have to prove his athletic chops, since he would not be a varsity athlete. He mentioned martial arts and I said that earning his black belt would be one of the ways that he could prove his athleticism to the academies. So, it really came from that conversation. It wasn't like a bucket list item kinda thing. He really has been expressing interest in training for several years, but I am just now getting to the point where I am thinking of supporting him for the long haul.

You might want to check and see what styles of martial arts the various academies teach or have clubs/groups for.. It’s my understanding that all students have to participate in athletics, even if they are not at varsity level. So choosing something he will be able to continue with if he ends up at an academy could be a good way to narrow the field.

[SeaConquest]

So, aside from Yelp:

https://www.yelp.com/search?find_desc=martial+arts&find_loc=San+Diego%2C+CA&ns=1

We also have this:

http://sandiegoalist.cityvoter.com/best/martial-arts/fitness/san-diego

[SeaConquest]

3 minutes ago, Frances said:

You might want to check and see what styles of martial arts the various academies teach or have clubs/groups for.. It’s my understanding that all students have to participate in athletics, even if they are not at varsity level. So choosing something he will be able to continue with if he ends up at an academy could be a good way to narrow the field.

 

You are a genius! https://www.facebook.com/NavyJiuJitsu/

[SanDiegoMom]

25 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

Oh, also, I should clarify. The wanting to earn a black belt thing came mostly from him and I talking about what it would take for him to get into one of the service academies. Since he is a homeschooler, I said that he would have to prove his athletic chops, since he would not be a varsity athlete. He mentioned martial arts and I said that earning his black belt would be one of the ways that he could prove his athleticism to the academies. So, it really came from that conversation. It wasn't like a bucket list item kinda thing. He really has been expressing interest in training for several years, but I am just now getting to the point where I am thinking of supporting him for the long haul.

I think the Academies like Jiu Jitsu.  My husband learned "Marine Corp Martial Arts" and there were a lot of similarities. My son went to a BJJ student run by a former Marine that was awesome.  Very encouraging and focused on personal improvement, but my son really is not super athletic and struggled with some of the submissions.  You can always tap out but it was getting to where he was only enjoying it half the time.   I think other types of martial arts would be more enjoyable for my kid, that involved a lot less hands on.  But my kid is also not very high energy, and the kids there were VERY high energy.  It was a mismatch.

I have a friend who moved back to SD and did a long search for a BJJ studio finally finding one she loves.  I can ask her which one her son goes to. 

[Frances]

25 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 

You are a genius! https://www.facebook.com/NavyJiuJitsu/

It looks like they also have karate and judo as competitive club sports.

https://navysports.com/sports/2018/5/23/school-bio-navy-intramurals-html.aspx

[mathnerd]

11 hours ago, Frances said:

It looks like they also have karate and judo as competitive club sports.

https://navysports.com/sports/2018/5/23/school-bio-navy-intramurals-html.aspx

TKD as well. DS's Master Instructor is a former instructor from the navy academy.