How to stop bullying....interesting article with unique idea

[Ottakee]

I think this article/idea has some merit.  We can't control what others do but we can control our response.  This technique could help empower kids.  What do you think?

https://www.loveandlogic.com/articles-advice/tease-proof-your-kids

 

[ktgrok]

I like the strategy but did NOT like the part where the teacher said the kids couldn't come to him anymore when someone teased them.The victim blaming was huge in that part. 

[Guest]

A lot of kids who are prone to getting teased have underlying disabilities that make them stand out, but aren’t to the level to make it completely socially inappropriate to tease them. For a kid with anxiety, or ADHD, or sensory issues, or on the ASD spectrum, or any of a number of other neurological quirks, and often especially for the kid who is borderline or twice exceptional, so may not even qualify for a “school diagnosis”, this strategy makes them a bully slot machine. They may be able to do it 10x, but the 11th, they’re just too overloaded to do anything but react, and the bully gets a payoff. You can work all day long on social skills and on building up a child’s tolerance and strategies for handling buttons being pushed, but if the classroom, team, or group culture is such that pushing buttons and getting a reaction gives the bully a payoff, the kids who have those minor signs of not being neurotypical will continue to get pushed until they react. 

 

I don’t think this is a bad strategy, but the work also has to involve building a classroom culture where button pushing to get a reaction is not acceptable. 

[Clemsondana]

I think that there are different kinds of bullying, and this technique can be very effective with the 'Say mean things to get a reaction' bullies and also 'Say whatever pops into your head before you think' kids, who can inadvertently upset people.  I don't  think it would help with somebody of the 'beat up a kid and take their toy/lunch $' type, but in many classrooms that's not the most common issue.  

Speaking from my/my husband's childhood experiences, and also from watching our own kids, the more reactive that you are, the worse the problem with 'Get a reaction' bullies.  It's why kids who cry easily can have such problems - if they cry at the first incident, then they're picked on for crying, which starts a cycle.  Obviously, it would be better if the first provoking incident never happened, but kids will do wrong things and there's no way to make sure that nobody ever says something mean.  So, giving kids a pose and comeback line and them being able to use it a few times might be enough to make them not be a target any more.  There are going to be kids who can't defend themselves, but if the vast majority can, then they can be taught to stand up for those who can't which can avoid the whole 'teacher's pet' issue that was mentioned in the start of the article.  

[Ottakee]

I agree it is not a total answer but I do see it as being a good tool for kids to have.

[Pen]

I think it’s potentially a helpful tool.  

I don’t know if it would work as well done at home. It seems like with the whole class it becomes a way of getting support and affirmation from a core group.  

taking last example, where kid on playground said “Yo’ Mama’s...” and a child responded as described, leaving kid 1 to say, “That kid’s weird...”     If the kid now labeled “weird” didn’t have a whole class to give support (and doing the same sort of thing) that might lead to a change from teasing into more teasing and maybe more serious bullying as kid 1 spread the idea that kid 2 is weird.  Possibly saying to friends “I said _____ and he said _____  , yeah, man, you should try it and see what he says to you.” Then perhaps after a time of Yo Mamas someone wonders how weird kid would respond if they trip him...

[Farrar]

I think it's a helpful tool. I've seen it discussed before. I know I read an interview with a woman who specifically counsels kids who are heavily bullied and she does some similar things with them.

My kids definitely had this naturally. So all the times that other kids tried to be mean, it never turned into bullying because there was no payoff for the mean kids. They just ended up leaving them alone.

I think anyone who thinks this is a total solution doesn't understand that some bullies are extremely persistent despite discouraging behaviors like this. They're not savvy enough to be looking or who's vulnerable. They're just stubborn and angry and willing to keep going. Also that some kids will never master this strategy because of anxiety or because they're not neurotypical - and that's part of what gives them that "aura" that makes them targets. And we have to recognize that not being able to throw off bullying doesn't mean it's your fault. This piece seemed to skirt close to victim blaming.

I have opinions about how we're creating bullying culture... but part of it is that I get frustrated that some adults think that we shouldn't do anything to arm kids with tools to deal with it themselves. I don't think it should ever be kids on their own... but I also think making it so that the adults step in to fix every little thing all the time is a big part of what is intensifying bullying culture when they get old enough to escape the adults entirely. So I'd say yes, explicitly teach things like this because it will help some kids. And that helps everyone.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I think teasing and bullying, while perhaps on the same spectrum, are miles apart.  

I like this strategy for tease-proofing and I might even discuss it with my kids.  

But bullying, real bullying, is another beast.  Putting your hands in your pockets or turning your back on a bully who may be physically aggressive sounds like a terrible idea.  

 

[Farrar]

I think meanness/teasing and bullying are on the same spectrum because one can turn into the other over time. If this and other strategies give kids the opportunity to stop or diffuse meanness or teasing, then that's in turn stopping some bullying down the road. I also think this can stop the sort of bullying that takes place among really young kids. I mean, if a 5 yo can master this, I think it can help. If a 12 yo can master this... I mean, who cares?

There's not one answer to "fixing" bullying. It's too complex. But helping kids learn to deal with the beginning stages themselves sometimes (while also giving them access to adults who believe them and support them) is a positive.

[lailasmum]

Maybe it would work for mild teasing but I can't see how many socially awkward kids could pull off any of this. I know I wouldn't have managed it.  I wouldn't have even coped with taking part in the group session to learn it. I'd still be a target. I think it blames the victims of bullying a bit too much too. I think that kids with bully tendencies will always find a target. As someone who was heavily bullied it was clear even as a kid that my bullies had serious issues. I found out a lot more about the awful home lives of my bullies after I left school. This approach seems at best to only deal with the mildest of the mild teasing and at the worst marks anyone who really struggles with being bullied as the cause of their own problems.

[katilac]

I think it's rather silly to claim that tattling and complaining have been reduced by 90% when of course it has because you have forbidden the children to tattle or complain. 

I also hate, hate, hate the idea that a teacher would heap blame upon a child for getting teased. "Well, did you let him get away with it?" The kid feels like crap already, let's make him feel worse. I'm such a loser that I not only get teased in the first place, I also don't know how to handle it. 

Now, do I think having and practicing a ready response can help reduce teasing? I sure do. I think it's a great thing to teach kids. I also know that many of the kids most likely to be teased will not be able to pull it off. Lots of kids will have some success, and that's great, but it's not the child's fault if they don't. Some kids just don't have the social savvy to pull it off. Some kids are incredibly tender-hearted. 

I would also like clarification on what they regard as teasing. The examples they used, yo mama jokes and telling a kid he has skinny arms, are quite mild. Also they do not seem to understand what a ho is.  If the words are much more vicious, is it still teasing? When a kid is called uglier than a dog or a retard, are they still meant to be able to grin and toss back a witty remark? A typical kid might be able to, yes. But when a kid who is considered (by conventional standards) to actually be very unattractive is called ugly, that's a little harder to do. When a kid with significant cognitive impairments is called a retard, that's a little harder to do. It would be ideal and amazing if they could, but it's freaking harsh to tell an upset child it's too bad they let the other kid get away with it. The related book is called Words Will Never Hurt Me and does reference bullying as well, so I'm guessing it does cover more extreme behaviors.

My personal experience and observation is that schools can indeed reduce both teasing and bullying, but teaching a strong response is only one part of the equation. The more important parts are a positive, encouraging culture (an amazing number of teachers and staff are actually not all that opposed to teasing and bullying), close attention to student interactions, and swift responses to every observed or reported instance. The response does not have to be punitive, although logical consequences can certainly come into play at some point. I think it's a bunch of malarkey when people say nothing can be done because I've seen something being done, in more than one school. Maybe you can't completely stop all teasing and bullying, but I believe that a high level of it is a direct reflection of the school's culture. They don't create a positive school culture, they don't put in the time or energy to respond, they low-key support the idea that it's just something kids do. 

And it bears repeating: I absolutely loathe the no-tattling rule. Does he think every kid he sends away magically learns to be tease-proof? No, but they do learn they can't go to their teacher for help or support.  

 

Edited March 4, 2019 by katilac

[happi duck]

@katilac  Well said!

[Bluegoat]

I do think it's useful and important to try and teach kids these skills.  Not just because they are directly useful, but because I think it affects the attitude of the child.  Kids have to learn, to some extent, not to take jerk's assessments of them seriously.  I remember that this dawned on my eldest daughter one day, she said "I realise now that it doesn't matter if some people don't like me, I don't care unless I have really done something wrong."  My observation has been that on the one hand, kids need adults to tell them this - on the other, they also need to just experience a certain amount of it and internally process it. That's when the realisation hits "oh, I don't care what this dweeb thinks, and it doesn't affect my life."

So - to me this relates to this issue of discouraging tattling.  I'm not sure how this teacher was defining it, but I have seen situations where kids needed to have it actively discouraged. It can become reflexive, it can become a way for kids to avoid the work of dealing with the situation, or even for kids with the right kinds of instincts to assert power over other kids.  If the set-up makes it advantageous, kids will tattle very quickly, not only when there is real bullying going on.  I'm not convinced the move to zero tolerance etc has actually been good for preventing really negative social interactions.

I'd hope the teacher has given the kids some guidance for when it is appropriate to get adult help.

[MaBelle]

Hm.  I was bullied in high school for about a week (girl jealous of who I was dating).  I just remember looking at her like she was crazy.  She stopped quickly.

On the other hand, when my little brother was bullied I used the Hand that Rocks the Cradle approach.  Very efficient method but illegal for an adult to attempt.

[wendyroo]

8 hours ago, katilac said:

Now, do I think having and practicing a ready response can help reduce teasing? I sure do. I think it's a great thing to teach kids. I also know that many of the kids most likely to be teased will not be able to pull it off. Lots of kids will have some success, and that's great, but it's not the child's fault if they don't. Some kids just don't have the social savvy to pull it off. Some kids are incredibly tender-hearted. 

I completely agree.  And in my personal experience, the bullying was actually a cause of the social awkwardness, not just a symptom. 

I thrived, and by all accounts was socially successful, in preschool.  I attended a one room school house for kindergarten, was quickly identified as gifted and began taking most lessons with much older students, and still was accepted by my peers and maintained friendships.

At the beginning of first grade I moved to a small, rural town.  I was an outsider, and seen as an upstart because my PG status meant I was often given differentiated work, or pulled from the classroom, or assigned to "tutor" peers.  The bullying started immediately and escalated quickly.  It became so bad (mentally and physically) that the administration started having me spend several hours a day independently in the library...and it was all downhill from there.

My social skills (relating to peers) quickly disintegrated as I was spending so little time in the classroom, and what time was spend among peers was negative and traumatizing.  I became VERY good at relating to adults, but those mannerisms did not serve me well with kids, which only increased the bullying.

In the end, I became very socially awkward and incompetent, largely because of bullying.

Wendy

 

[Ottakee]

Thanks all for sharing your stories.  I agree that this is one tool to use but I don't agree with the no tattling and not holding the bully responsible.  They absolutely must be dealt with in very firm terms.  

[Bluegoat]

I think maybe part of my problem is that  don't always agree with things being characterised as bullying. I think it's a stronger word that is appropriate to be used by kids teasing r trying to get a rise out of each other, or even being mean to each other.  There seem to be some places though where any negative interaction like that is called bullying, and dealt with as if it is psychologically very damaging.  That can make the kids think that they are really kind of fragile, and it also leads to out of proportion responses.

[Bluegoat]

3 minutes ago, OKBud said:

The other thing is that I don't think merely saying a mean thing to someone is bullying. Even if it's said more than once and in different ways. Bullying, per se, has to have an element of something more. Something isolating? Or getting in the head more? Or long-term. SOMETHING more that, "you have a bad face and your mom's fat" or whatever. What constitutes bullying in terms of effect on the individual can have a more fluid definition, but definitely imo something more than a handful of mean statements or taunts. 

And it can't just be true, observable things that happen to rub you the wrong way, either, when people reference them without malice. "you're tall" isn't even an insult much less taunting, etc...

So anyway, like  a pp, I wonder what this teacher is defining as being bullying and teasing. 

 

Ha, we seem to have been thinking the same thing.....

[Pronghorn]

I think the most important thing for a kid to learn about bullying is that it is not their fault if they are bullied. The bully is the one with a problem. Now you might want to learn some ways to deal with that person who has a problem. But nothing is wrong with you at all if you cannot manage to deflect the bully. Also, this article only deals with the less sophisticated teasing methods. What about the bully who turns every other child against you and leaves you totally isolated. Do you then become the kid who takes a book to recess and pretends you really would rather read than play. How many kids can pull that off, especially on a daily basis?

[Garga]

2 hours ago, wendyroo said:

I completely agree.  And in my personal experience, the bullying was actually a cause of the social awkwardness, not just a symptom. 

I thrived, and by all accounts was socially successful, in preschool.  I attended a one room school house for kindergarten, was quickly identified as gifted and began taking most lessons with much older students, and still was accepted by my peers and maintained friendships.

At the beginning of first grade I moved to a small, rural town.  I was an outsider, and seen as an upstart because my PG status meant I was often given differentiated work, or pulled from the classroom, or assigned to "tutor" peers.  The bullying started immediately and escalated quickly.  It became so bad (mentally and physically) that the administration started having me spend several hours a day independently in the library...and it was all downhill from there.

My social skills (relating to peers) quickly disintegrated as I was spending so little time in the classroom, and what time was spend among peers was negative and traumatizing.  I became VERY good at relating to adults, but those mannerisms did not serve me well with kids, which only increased the bullying.

In the end, I became very socially awkward and incompetent, largely because of bullying.

Wendy

 

 

This.

For the life of me, I can’t tease out which came first for me: was I socially awkward and therefore got bullied?  Or was I bullied and then became socially awkward?  Was it a mixture of the two?  

 

[Wheres Toto]

Maybe it works sometimes but it wouldn't with my son.  He was confident, always laughing and clowning around, not meek in any way, and was never teased.   Until he was.   At first he was able to just laugh it off, ignore it, etc. but it persisted and the kid figured out what would get a rise out of ds so continued to do that.  He didn't get any "reward" for a while but kept trying until he did.   Ds has aspergers and spd and was completely incapable of just ignoring or brushing it off once it hit a certain point.

[happi duck]

I don't like anything that can even remotely end up making the victim feel at fault.

I agree with others that teachers need to create cultures of kindness.  I've been the student of and taught alongside teachers who were practically bullies themselves.

I never agree with advice to give the bully a scorching look or say something cutting.  At my high school, the wrong look or wrong remark would get one beat up so I can just imagine "the look" making everything worse.

[lailasmum]

3 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

I think maybe part of my problem is that  don't always agree with things being characterised as bullying. I think it's a stronger word that is appropriate to be used by kids teasing r trying to get a rise out of each other, or even being mean to each other.  There seem to be some places though where any negative interaction like that is called bullying, and dealt with as if it is psychologically very damaging.  That can make the kids think that they are really kind of fragile, and it also leads to out of proportion responses.

 

For me, the difference between the teasing and bullying I received was that the teasing was more casual, odd comments on the fly that maybe someone less anxious, awkward and shy wouldn't have taken on board so much and the teaser generally wasn't spending their life planning how to hurt me. The bullying was highly targeted, led to me being isolated from my few friends, and it felt like the bully got huge joy from it. You feel like prey.  It was just a whole nother level of nastiness.

I can see the line between kids just being idiots and trying to wind each other up and actual bullying but if it's hurting someone I do think teasing needs dealing with. I think if someone is a repeat teaser they could do with helping to get their kicks from something more positive or improving their social skills. I think adults can be very lazy in dealing with teasing and bullying though so don't stop problems early on. 

My daughter got targeted by the neighbourhood bullies when she was younger and led by one girl in particular they planned something that had the potential to physically hurt her. They received my full wrath and I probably overreacted because of my own history but it ended the situation. I was expecting the parents to come to shout at me for talking to their kids but I only heard from one who was reasonable and the actual ringleader's parents didn't seem to care what their daughter was up to.

Edited March 4, 2019 by lailasmum

[Katy]

Well I think this sort of technique can be a social skill that can help kids get accepted by the popular/status type of popular crowd.  Those kids always tease everyone, it's a subconscious constant re-ranking game with everything they say to or about each other.  I'm pretty sure that's what a lot of the "average" and "unpopular" kids never get.  Those kids in that group aren't having the same sort of loving supportive friendships that other kids are having.

At the same time being good-natured about being teased and not taking other people's opinions personally IS a good skill to have because it shows true confidence but it is NOT the same thing as avoiding bullying.  And those on this thread that express that there's a difference are correct.  Could SOME of the kids who are bullied not be victims if they learned this?  Yes.  But not all, and probably not even most.

[vonfirmath]

On 3/4/2019 at 7:39 AM, Bluegoat said:

I think maybe part of my problem is that  don't always agree with things being characterised as bullying. I think it's a stronger word that is appropriate to be used by kids teasing r trying to get a rise out of each other, or even being mean to each other.  There seem to be some places though where any negative interaction like that is called bullying, and dealt with as if it is psychologically very damaging.  That can make the kids think that they are really kind of fragile, and it also leads to out of proportion responses.

 

This is what I saw with my kids. and why I'm more cautious of the term bullying. My kids would come home to me talking about so and so bullying them.  Then the next day same guy, best friend. Next day? bully.... back and forth.  I would just explain that friends did not always play with each other and to have some patience.

 

I waited to go to the teacher until 1) Something really dangerous was involved or 2) it was the same kids over and over.  Inevitably, I heard that the behavior was NOT just other kids doing it to my kid but my kid doing it to them (or similar stuff) participating, but then not wanting to be involved when directed against.  Sure makes one think twice about believing tattling after the fact (and we did have the discussion about the boy who cried wolf as well).

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I tried this with my DGD after some bullying in her new elementary. There is a Queen Mean Girl in her class and the behavior is becoming unbearable for DGD.

I asked her to create a Power Pose and, after she settled on one, I would say "Power Pose" and she would take her stance. After a bit, I told her to every time someone said something she didn't like to get into Power Pose.  We practiced for a bit and she said she liked it because it made her feel better. We then moved on to coming up with a "Bully No-Brainer", a phrase she could say to stop them in their tracks. We put the two together and practiced for a bit. I would say things she might hear a bully say: "I don't like your hair cut", "Your outfit is dumb", and "I don't want to be your friend." She would strike her Power Pose and rip off her Bully No-Brainer. She even started coming up with little witticisms on her own that were pretty good.

I'm curious to learn if she was able to use these tactics and, if so, how well they worked for her. I hate the idea that she is being picked on at age 7 and want to give her as many tools as possible to defuse a situation and to feel empowered.