another, nother work WWYD

[saraha]

So if anyone remembers, I used to work for our church's daycare keeping the books. When my situation became such that I decided to leave, I gave a month's notice. I only worked in the office (since I could also work from home) one day a week, but made it known I could meet anyone at other times too to help with the transition. 2 weeks before my last day, an older lady expressed interest in the job but was very nervous about how much was done by computers. She came into the office on my last two regular work days (she did not ask to meet at any other times) and sat with me while I walked her through everything. The pastor was also supposed to sit in because this lady would not commit to the job, but I was pretty sure she would take it.

  On my last office day (keep in mind I also said I could meet at other times, but no one took me up on it) the lady came in, the pastor came in for a while but had also scheduled another meeting for during that time. So my end time came, the older lady left still unsure if she would take the job and the pastor just sort of waved at me when I left. A week has gone by, and yesterday (the in office day) the older lady had tried to call me. My husband had my phone at work with him, so I didn't get the message until that evening and texted her to say she could call me today. She called today and asked questions for an hour. She asked if I would come in to the office. I said no, I would do my best to answer her questions from home. Then she said, well the pastor said I could share with you the new passwords so that we can be looking at the same screen. I said absolutely not. I don't work there anymore and I don't want any bank account passwords! I tried to answer her questions, reminded her that I had typed up a very detailed, step by step order of operations, and assured her that she could handle this job.  10 minutes later, the pastor calls and tells me that I need to answer more of her questions and probably come in to the office because she doesn't have time to do it. I politely replied that I would not come in to the office, to which she replied, well, we will just call if we have more questions.

Honestly the gall. I left that job and we left that church (which we attended for 14 years before she came along) after the way I felt I had been repeatedly treated and some other actions on the pastor's part that related to both the church and the daycare. I gave a MONTH notice, so feel like I really went out of my way to try to help with the transition. I really don't want to be involved with this anymore, but I have a feeling that they are just going to keep calling me. I don't have any ill feelings toward the new lady, other than being frustrated she didn't work with me more before I left, or toward the daycare and its employees. So part of me feels like the right thing to do is help, but on the other hand, I feel like the pastor is just trying to take advantage again.

So, what would you do?

Thanks in advance, I know this is long and I have so much emotion wrapped up in it.

[SKL]

I would offer to come in for an hourly fee at hours that are convenient for you.  Set the hourly fee high like an outside consultant (which you now are).  Questions by phone will be accepted at no charge for x days and after that, your hourly fee applies.

[JustEm]

I would offer to go in at a pretty high hourly rate and also offer to help via telephone for an hourly rate that was high but not as high as coming in.  They had a month of paying you to go through all of this and chose not to do it.  Do not allow them to steal your time away from you.

[Garga]

To clarify:

Did the lady who was interested in the job know that you would meet her on your “at home” days if she asked?  Or did she think you would only meet her on the days you were in office? 

(If she didn’t know AND the answer to the first question below is no, then I’d answer her questions as a consultant and charge for my time.)

Is everything that is needed to do the job in your instructions?  Could she honestly sit there and read what you wrote and be able to do the job if she just took the time to do it?  Or did you leave with information in your head that is now completely inaccessible to them?

(If there are already instructions that can be followed, I’d pick up the phone when the lady calls and say, “Please refer to the instruction sheet I gave you.”  After about 2 weeks if she keeps calling, stop answering.)

And to vent with you:  that pastor is a piece of work.  Sheesh.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Garga

[EmseB]

I would stop answering their calls.

I might email the pastor and state the facts of the matter: I gave a month's notice and repeatedly offered to help transition, left a detailed amount of instructions which can be found [here], since I am no longer employed by the church or being paid I cannot accept the responsibility of taking bank account passwords or access to other church business.

[itsheresomewhere]

25 dollars an hour sounds like a good rate for this.  Offer that for coming in and showing her again. 

[happi duck]

You gave more than enough notice and you've already gone above and beyond helping your replacement.

People figure stuff out on their own all the time.  Businesses manage when people quit with no notice.

I would come up with a response to use each time they called and suddenly be very busy.  "It's all in the order of operations.  Gotta go!"

[JustEm]

Just now, Garga said:

To clarify:

Did the lady who was interested in the job know that you would meet her on your “at home” days if she asked?  Or did she think you would only meet her on the days you were in office? 

Is everything that is needed to do the job in your instructions?  Could she honestly sit there and read what you wrote and be able to do the job if she just took the time to do it?  Or did you leave with information in your head that is now complete inaccessible to them?

And to vent with you:  that pastor is a piece of work.  Sheesh.

 

None of this matters though.  She no longer works there and it is up to the people who run the daycare to figure it out.  She gave a months notice, which would have been enough time for someone already on staff to learn the system so they could teach the new hire if the new hire was not able to learn in that time frame

[saraha]

1 minute ago, Garga said:

To clarify:

Did the lady who was interested in the job know that you would meet her on your “at home” days if she asked?  Or did she think you would only meet her on the days you were in office? 

Is everything that is needed to do the job in your instructions?  Could she honestly sit there and read what you wrote and be able to do the job if she just took the time to do it?  Or did you leave with information in your head that is now complete inaccessible to them?

And to vent with you:  that pastor is a piece of work.  Sheesh.

She did know I could meet at other times, she just kept saying she wasn't sure she would take it.

I think the problem is that she is not familiar with online banking and apparently didn't take good enough notes as we walked through it those two days she sat with me. I told her she could always call the bank....

I even left them a business card of the accountant who set up our quickbooks in case they wanted to call (and pay) her, but they are trying to take the cheap easy way out

[almondbutterandjelly]

I would block their phone numbers so I could no longer receive their calls.

[saraha]

Ok, so I am not being petty for not wanting to help? I really just wanted to make a clean break as it was such an emotional decision to leave our church, but then worried about what the Christian thing to do was as well. I feel for the new employee as she is also a member of the church, so I know what she is in for.

[happi duck]

You're not being petty.

[itsheresomewhere]

3 minutes ago, saraha said:

Ok, so I am not being petty for not wanting to help? I really just wanted to make a clean break as it was such an emotional decision to leave our church, but then worried about what the Christian thing to do was as well. I feel for the new employee as she is also a member of the church, so I know what she is in for.

Not being petty at all.  When they call offer 25 an hour and I bet they will stop calling.  

[saraha]

6 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

 

None of this matters though.  She no longer works there and it is up to the people who run the daycare to figure it out.  She gave a months notice, which would have been enough time for someone already on staff to learn the system so they could teach the new hire if the new hire was not able to learn in that time frame

Right ?!? That is what I thought too, and suggested that maybe the assistant director come in and learn my job, but the pastor said no. I knew it would be a hard transition for whoever took the job, but calling me just seems over the top.

The pastor can be a bully to people who let her, which I was not one of those people, hence our constant discord.

 

[happi duck]

The pastor could also see this as one last shot at trying to show control over you.  

[almondbutterandjelly]

I would seriously cut off contact.  If they can't reach you, they can't drag you into stuff.  Move forward without them.

[gardenmom5]

I'm fed  up with unprofessional behavior (so what if they're a church.  they are still subject to employment law.)

if they want you to come in so bad - I'd give them my flat per hour rate.   and it would be TWICE what they were paying me before.  take it or leave it.

eta: I would writing it up as a contract, have him signing off on it.  maximum number of hours - BEFORE I'd even consider going in.  it's not your fault they didn't do their part to prepare for you leaving.

or you could just tell them "I'm sorry my replacement you hired didn't do a better job coming in so I could train her.   But my date  of departure has come and gone.  It's no longer my problem."

Edited November 8, 2018 by gardenmom5

[prairiewindmomma]

Don’t go back, even if they offer $100/hr. Let that dysfunction hit them in the behind. You also don’t want any liability for having knowledge of the new financial passwords.

Run, Saraha, run!

[Garga]

18 minutes ago, saraha said:

She did know I could meet at other times, she just kept saying she wasn't sure she would take it.

I think the problem is that she is not familiar with online banking and apparently didn't take good enough notes as we walked through it those two days she sat with me. I told her she could always call the bank....

I even left them a business card of the accountant who set up our quickbooks in case they wanted to call (and pay) her, but they are trying to take the cheap easy way out

 

Ok-I would feel sorry for the new lady and part of me would want to help her if she had been blindsided.  But she wasn’t.  She knew she could meet you and chose not to.  That’s her problem now and not yours.

14 minutes ago, saraha said:

Ok, so I am not being petty for not wanting to help? I really just wanted to make a clean break as it was such an emotional decision to leave our church, but then worried about what the Christian thing to do was as well. I feel for the new employee as she is also a member of the church, so I know what she is in for.

 

You’re not being petty.  The pastor is.

10 minutes ago, saraha said:

Right ?!? That is what I thought too, and suggested that maybe the assistant director come in and learn my job, but the pastor said no. I knew it would be a hard transition for whoever took the job, but calling me just seems over the top.

The pastor can be a bully to people who let her, which I was not one of those people, hence our constant discord.

 

 

The pastor is still trying to bully you.  Don’t let her.  Stop answering the phone at this point.  You left notes.  You left contact information for an accountant.  You told them they can call the bank.  You’ve done enough.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Garga

[saraha]

Just now, prairiewindmomma said:

Don’t go back, even if they offer $100/hr. Let that dysfunction hit them in the behind. You also don’t want any liability for having knowledge of the new financial passwords.

Run, Saraha, run!

That is exactly what my husband said!  Seriously though, she asked for my keys as soon as I walked in on the last day (show of power I think) but then tells the new lady to just give me the passwords so we can see the same screen so she doesn't have to deal with it!

[Jean in Newcastle]

I would stop answering their calls.  You are not the only person they can call for help.  There are people out there that can teach computer skills.  There are probably people in the church who could help. 

[saraha]

Thanks so much everyone! I know this seems like a common sense type thing, but I am still really emotional about the whole thing (and 41 and emotional about everything!) and really appreciate the backup!

[saraha]

2 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I would stop answering their calls.  You are not the only person they can call for help.  There are people out there that can teach computer skills.  There are probably people in the church who could help. 

I actually left them the card of the person who takes care of our accounts at the bank and the card of the person who set up our quickbooks, so I know they have options!

[gardenmom5]

15 minutes ago, saraha said:

Ok, so I am not being petty for not wanting to help? I really just wanted to make a clean break as it was such an emotional decision to leave our church, but then worried about what the Christian thing to do was as well. I feel for the new employee as she is also a member of the church, so I know what she is in for.

this really bugs me - and I'll tell you why. . . . doing the "christian thing" does NOT =/= allowing yourself to be used, taken advantage of, and abused!

you've fulfilled your commitment to say long enough to train a successor.  that she didn't get trained isn't your problem.

 

[vonfirmath]

IF you want to help, I'd only do it with a contract to be paid

I left a company I loved, to move states. I trained my replacement, left written directions AND told them they could call me if something came up and they needed more help.

Shortly after I left, the replacement fell off a horse and was out of the office for several months.

 

They still never called. They figured it out on their own.

[ThisIsTheDay]

50 minutes ago, saraha said:

Ok, so I am not being petty for not wanting to help? I really just wanted to make a clean break as it was such an emotional decision to leave our church, but then worried about what the Christian thing to do was as well. I feel for the new employee as she is also a member of the church, so I know what she is in for.

 

You are not being petty. The Christian thing to do is what you are doing--speaking kindly and repeating when they continue to push you. Jesus would not let Himself be bullied or taken advantage of, but I also don't think He would block their calls and necessarily refuse to talk to them.

If you so chose, it would be perfectly fine to say, "It was such an emotional decision to leave our church, and it needs to be a clean break. I feel for you, but I'm not able to continue to help in any capacity." If the pastor continues to push, perhaps you can suggest she speak to your husband, and he can tell her no, that you are done.

((((Saraha))))

[dirty ethel rackham]

I would simply tell them that they need to contact the people whose names you left them and remind them you gave them plenty of notice to train your replacement.  The fact that they didn't do that is not your problem.  Rinse, repeat.  Due to this pastor's treatment of you and attempts to bully you, any more explanation will likely lead to more manipulation.  If it continues, stop answering their calls.  You have done your due diligence.  

[Heatherwith4]

I’ll agree with the others who say don’t take their calls.  

[regentrude]

It is not your responsibility to train your replacement after the termination of your employment.

1 hour ago, saraha said:

I think the problem is that she is not familiar with online banking and apparently didn't take good enough notes as we walked through it those two days she sat with me. I told her she could always call the bank....

If she is not qualified for the job, that is not your problem.

[PeachyDoodle]

Haven't read all the replies, but from one former church staff member to another: I feel you. Churches can be the best places in the world to work, but they can also be the WORST. And IME, churches seem to have a sense that they are entitled to free or underpaid services simply because they are churches.

I had a similar situation in which I gave six weeks' notice out of sympathy for the church in order to buy them time to find my replacement. Fortunately, I was leaving to be a SAHM and could afford to do this. It wouldn't have been possible if I'd been taking another full-time job. After only two weeks, I was told they had a replacement and wouldn't need me to stay on. I happened to know the person replacing me and knew that she did not have the skills to do the job, but since I hadn't been invited to be part of the hiring process (I didn't even know they'd talked to anyone) I kept my mouth shut. I had a brief meeting with the new employee and gave her an overview of my responsibilities and left.

Thereafter I was treated to almost daily phone calls and emails from the new person asking questions, as well as near-daily contact from my former boss complaining about the new person's job performance. I eventually stopped answering the phone and deleted any emails without reading them. They managed to figure it out, I guess.

I did later take on some work there in a freelance capacity at a much higher hourly rate than they'd ever paid me. After their experiences trying to get someone to do the job, I had room to negotiate. (It was a communications management position that I'd essentially created from scratch when they hired me out of college.) So I do like that option for you, if you feel like dealing with it. But might be easier just to ignore it when they call. They will figure it out eventually, and it's really not your problem.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

2 hours ago, EmseB said:

I would stop answering their calls.

I might email the pastor and state the facts of the matter: I gave a month's notice and repeatedly offered to help transition, left a detailed amount of instructions which can be found [here], since I am no longer employed by the church or being paid I cannot accept the responsibility of taking bank account passwords or access to other church business.

 

^^^This.

[forty-two]

1 hour ago, saraha said:

Ok, so I am not being petty for not wanting to help? I really just wanted to make a clean break as it was such an emotional decision to leave our church, but then worried about what the Christian thing to do was as well. I feel for the new employee as she is also a member of the church, so I know what she is in for.

The Christian thing is to always do God's good to everyone, whether they deserve to receive good or not.  That is not the same thing as always making life *easier* for others, and it's not the same thing as always giving people what they *want*. 

I think a common assumption is that you do good for others by giving them what they want whenever possible. And so *not* giving people what they want, when doing so is within your power, is inherently selfish. Given this assumption, the only non-selfish reasons to *not* give people what they want is either because you *can't*, or because what they want is *wrong* and so giving it to them would *not* be good. And so the Christian art of saying no becomes determining when "it would be unwise for me to do this" means that, really, we *can't* do it (or means that it's wrong of you to ask me to do it) - and so we can say no with a clear conscience - and when "it would be unwise for me to do this" is just covert "I don't wanna do it" selfishness, and so we are obligated to say yes.

For many, attempting to turn "it would be unwise of me" into "I can't" is inherently a covert attempt to put the self first. And so some demonize the whole attempt (you can never, ever put yourself first ever), and others argue that, you know what, sometimes it *is* ok to put yourself first. And then Christian ethics becomes figuring out when it *is* and *isn't* ok to "put yourself first". Only that doesn't really play all that well with Scripture. But always doing what others want regardless of the effect on yourself is madness.

The problem, in my opinion, is with that initial assumption, that "doing good for others" means "letting them do what they want (unless it's sinful)" - that the core dilemma is between "doing what I want" and "letting others do what they want". And so, the only alternative to the madness of always subsuming myself in others' wants is to occasionally "put myself first". And so ethics becomes judging when it's ok to put myself first (do what I want), and when I must deny myself (let others do what they want).

I think that's a false dichotomy, albeit a common one. And I think it stems from the common-but-unbiblical assumption that the best thing we can do for others is to let them fulfill their dreams, to do what they want. That turns the Christian call to do good for others into helping others fulfill their dreams and wants *instead of* trying to fulfill our own. And it gives no grounds except selfishness or sinfulness to turn down a request. So either you (wrongly) justify selfishness, or you (wrongly) demonize unwise things as actually sinful, or you (wrongly) never turn down a request. I know my parenting really suffered when my main notion of "doing good for my kids" was "letting them do what they wanted". I had no grounds for saying no when what they wanted was both possible and not sinful.

I think what we need is to get rid of that assumption that "doing good for people" means "letting them do what they want". (We also need to get rid of the equal-and-opposite assumption that "doing good for people" means "NOT letting them do what they want".) Culturally, there's a strong sense that people determine their own good, that people have to determine for themselves what good they are going to aim at. It goes against the cultural grain to assert that *God* has actually established the good we are supposed to aim at. But I think that regaining that Biblical teaching is vital to escaping from the trap described above. "Always doing good for others" doesn't mean doing *their* good instead of *my* good; rather it means always doing *God's* good.

Boundaries can't be about "when it's ok to put myself first" (aka do what is good for me (aka be selfish, do what I want)) *instead of* putting others first. The question can't be "when is it ok to do good for me *instead of* doing good for others"; the question must always be, "given the situation, given my resources and abilities and given the need, *how* can I do good here?" And this good needs to be measured objectively, against God's Law; what I want and what others want is *one* thing - but it's not *the* thing. The various subjective wants are *one* thing to consider in determining which good thing to do, not *the* thing. They *do* matter, but they aren't the *only* things that matter. (I say that to my kids all. the. time. when they tell me they don't want to do something - what we want is *one* thing, not *the* thing. "I don't want to" is *not* the same thing as "I won't do it". We don't have to be trapped by the if-then logic of "if I don't do want to, then I won't do it".)

And likewise, we don't have to be trapped by the if-then logic of "if someone wants me to do this, then I have to do it". Instead, we can ask ourselves, what good will be accomplished by my doing this thing? What harm will occur if I don't? Likewise, what *other* good will I *not* be able to do if I do this thing? And what harm will occur if I *do* do this thing? Is the good accomplished by my effort here a good use of my resources? Is it a wise use of my resources? I can't do all the good, everywhere. Given the situation and my resources, is *this* good a wise thing to do?

Our choices aren't *whether* to aim at *our* good or to aim at someone else's good; rather, our choices are *how* to best aim at *God's* good. And it's legit to turn down requests - *good* requests - because we are doing other good elsewhere. (We just have to make sure we are indeed pursuing *God's* good and not our own.)  It's also legit to turn down requests because we think that doing what the other person *wants* isn't really going to be doing them actual *good*.

[gardenmom5]

14 minutes ago, regentrude said:

It is not your responsibility to train your replacement after the termination of your employment.

If she is not qualified for the job, that is not your problem.

dd is in process of leaving her current job.   (just working out final details for where she's going.).

she has not told her current employer she's leaving.  she keeps expressing her frustration about what is going on, how she's tried to put them in a good position (with a number of unreasonable constraints).  she cares about the "minion" level employees - not the "c" levels.  she has put together a number of documents and streamlined things so her replacement (doubt they hire one - their parent european company thinks they can do her job from europe. working only european office hours . . .right, and when __ crashes, they have to wait until european office hours, and they don't have anyone on call for overnight emergencies.  have fun with that. . . ..  I keep telling her - you're leaving, not your problem.  she's done her job well, documented and streamlined, what they do with it - is not her problem)

you've done your job well, you set them up for your successor to the best of your ability with what you had to work with - what they do with it - is not. your. problem.

[gardenmom5]

what too few people understand - sometimes the kindest thing you can do, is say "no".   otherwise, it's just enabling, and that is selfish because the enabler is doing it to feel good about themself, not to actually help the other.   if you do it for them, they won't learn to do it themselves.