What, exactly, are future teachers learning in college?

[alewife]

This is not meant to be a post to bash teachers, but rather the training future teachers are receiving in college.  I have posted before about the horrid AP test results the students in my area get on the AP calc exam.  Well, a woman that my daughter knows though a shared hobby just graduated with a teaching degree.  She is teaching AP Calc in one of our public schools.  She just texted my daughter asking her if my daughter can tutor her this year because she doesn't understand calculus and has no idea how to teach it.  

So my 17 year old is going to be training the teacher this year. 

What the heck?  How can someone obtain credentials and have no understanding of the material?  Considering how many students score a 1 on the AP calculus exam in the schools in my area, there must be a lot more teachers out there who have no clue.  

This new teacher is a wonderful person who is great with kids.  She had a high GPA in college.  It seems that the college failed her and now her students are going to suffer the consequences.

Edited August 29, 2018 by alewife

[1shortmomto4]

Well, I can you tell that depending upon the school they might not be learning all that much.  My dd is a senior at a local major university and will graduate with a degree called "Integrative Studies-Teacher Education" and then will finish up her Masters by December.  So at this school all the teacher students are pushed in to this new thing called Integrative Studies and then they tack on a label - be it Teacher Education, Business, Communications, etc. and when you see what the courses are that you are required to take - things like meditation, self-preservation, social justice organizer, understanding the male, gender something or other, and the list goes on.  One semester my dd learned yoga and the circus came to the class to teach juggling! and she made a cute 3grade level project to tell all about herself.  Yeah, you earn 30 credits of this type of course work and then - voila, they give you a degree.  Are you required to take anything related to teaching a classroom at that level - nope.  Now my dd who refuses to participate in that waste of time for the most part, did find a few courses they did offer (I think they offer 4 courses overall related to education) has had to be quite creative in picking the least argumentative or otherwise agenda-pushing course.  This semester is one on mediation, another in conflict resolution and a useful one- family dynamics.  In addition to those credits you do have to take and pass the courses required by the state - 2 math courses, 2 sciences with labs, a few English, world geography, a wee bit of history, and a fine arts or two course but that is about it.  Oh, then you have to pass a few big state required exams.  First is the Praxis I - in English/Reading and Math and you have to minimum scores or you have to try again.  My dd, because she wanted to do well on the exam, took a 5 week seminar to prep for the math - it is timed and high pressure and she thought it would help.  It did as she scored 98 out of 100 but in that seminar most all of the other attendees had already taken the exam 3 or more times and failed!  At some point you'd think the state would say - uh, no! find something new to pursue.  She did just as well on the English.  So now she has a the Praxis 2 which tests all 5 subject areas - and once you pass that you've met the requirements of the state (along with a degree).  Now someone who would be teaching advanced math at the middle/high school level would have had to pass a subject test in math plus a set number of math courses.  Now all this testing is great but it doesn't prepare them for a classroom.  My dd has learned her skills through a mentor - a Kindie teacher and she has been subbing in the school system for 2, going on 3 years.  This is where she has learned the true skills needed to succeed in the classroom.  She had to write 1 lesson plan last semester and 1 lesson plan this semester.  The new professor was shocked that the school required only 1 as at an "ivy league" one they were required to write 6. Future teachers should spend much more time in classrooms and given options to actually learn more usable skills that will carry with them over the career.  Sadly, this isn't happening and we are seeing the results in many states across the country - was it Tennessee (definitely a southern state) that the teachers failed the math state exam? and they were blaming the test maker (Pearson) for the failure.  Sure......

[Arcadia]

Sounds weird for someone with a math degree to not understand the AP calculus content. Teaching is another matter altogether. My kids are lucky in that their public charter school teachers from 2nd-4th grade are proficient in calculus and can explain (one is a seasoned community college adjourn and the other afterschooled her own high schooler). 

Below quoted is for California https://web.csulb.edu/depts/math/?q=node/13

The exam option 

“The CSET is "the appropriate Commission-adopted subject matter examination(s)" for a single subject teaching credential in mathematics or foundational-level mathematics.

General Information

The CSET for mathematics has 3 subtests. Unless you are demonstrating subject matter competence through a SMPP, passing subtests I and II is required for student teaching. The CTC Examination website has more information about the test.

Effective December 29, 2014, the three subtests cover:

1. Algebra and Number & Quantity
2. Geometry and Probability & Statistics
3. Calculus

By passing subtests I and II only, you will be eligible for a Credential in Foundational-Level Mathematics (FLM) which "authorizes teaching only in limited mathematics content areas: general mathematics, algebra, geometry, probability and statistics, and consumer mathematics." (quoted from here)

By passing all three subtests, you will be eligible for a Credential in Mathematics. This authorizes you to teach any mathematics course.”

The course option

”I. SMC Option I: Subject Matter Preparation Program (SMPP)

I.A. SMPP at CSULB

Information about CSULB's Bachelor of Science in Mathematics - Option in Mathematics Education is available in the CSULB Catalog.

Subject Matter Competence (SMC) for the Single Subject Teaching Credential may be demonstrated by completion of the CSULB Bachelor of Science in Mathematics - Option in Mathematics Education with (1) a 2.75 GPA or higher in required MATH, MTED, and STAT courses, and (2) no grade lower than a C in those courses. There are alternative means of demonstrating subject matter competence; consult with the Single Subject Mathematics Education Advisor for specific academic advisement. Note that the above demonstration of subject matter competence is required for a Teaching Credential, but is not a requirement of the BS degree.”

i didn’t use this teacher’s materials but your daughter’s friend might find them useful

Calculus AB http://www.baileyworldofmath.org/site/35c5ea2ea03245779f8d5f5706f96ac0/default?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.baileyworldofmath.org%2FAP_Calculus_AB.html#2630

Calculus BC http://www.baileyworldofmath.org/site/35c5ea2ea03245779f8d5f5706f96ac0/default?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.baileyworldofmath.org%2FAP_Calculus_BC.html#2823

[Sneezyone]

Those sorts of classes are why my alma did away with education as a undergraduate major. You must major in a subject and tack on an extra year for the certificate or two years for the MEd. When I toyed with teaching, I had to take a one credit class on CA curriculum frameworks. You literally got a credit for reading the state frameworks. Which state is this that issues secondary math licenses without calc proficiency?

Edited August 29, 2018 by Sneezyone

[alewife]

15 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Those sorts of classes are why my alma did away with education as a undergraduate major. You must major in a subject and tack on an extra year for the certificate or two years for the MEd. When I toyed with teaching, I had to take a one credit class on CA curriculum frameworks. You literally got a credit for reading the state frameworks. Which state is this that issues secondary math licenses without calc proficiency?

I was wrong about her credentials and I will go back and edit my original post.  She has an education degree with some kind of math specialty, so not a math degree from the college's math department, but some sort of math specialty from the school of education.  I guess there is a difference?

I just don't understand how our educational system is unable to ensure that teachers receive the proper training in college so they are able to effectively teach the subjects that they are hired to teach.  This new teacher said that she thinks she can figure out how to solve the problems in chapter 1 of the book, but after that she has no clue.  (My guess is chapter 1 is a review of precalc.)  

[Farrar]

When I originally finished college at a pretty good small LAC, I decided to go get teaching certification in a semester just at a local second tier state uni to get it done cheap and then teach for a bit while I decided where I wanted to go with that. The classes were so mind-numbingly stupid that I bombed out after a semester. I became convinced that the whole purpose was to discourage people who think critically from ever becoming teachers. I ended up getting an MA in Education (yes, it's a weird degree... not an MAT or an M.Ed.) from a sort of alternative program instead. Everything I hear says that it's just as screwed up in education schools.

The above distinction between the undergrad ed degree with the subject concentration vs. the degree + master's in education is a big difference and why the latter is where a lot of places have moved. But the whole thing is a problem all the way around regardless of subject. 

[1shortmomto4]

Actually at the university that my dd attends the norm used to be that you earned a Bachelor's degree in Psychology, English, Math, History or Science and then earned your Masters in Education - the state requires a Masters degree (or so many credits earned towards it ) before you are certified through the state.  This past spring the demand for teachers has been great - more spots than educators so they have begun to change the rules and no longer will require the Masters.  This whole "integrated studies" has been a relatively new theme at the university.  The university was very adamant that she pursue the IS degree path versus the old standards and they've tacked on more courses to the old path to discourage that option.  My dd was accepted into the accelerated Masters program (have to have high GPA and excellent test scores) so she'll graduate with her Bachelor's this coming May.  She will then begin official teaching next fall but from August to December those hours will count towards her student teaching hours (they tack that requirement on during the Masters portion) and will graduate with her Masters in December.   We encouraged her to just get the Masters now versus later when it might be more challenging with a job and some day husband/kids, etc.   She'll be so glad to just get in that official classroom and fulfill her dreams of being a Kindergarten teacher.

[regentrude]

2 hours ago, alewife said:

I was wrong about her credentials and I will go back and edit my original post.  She has an education degree with some kind of math specialty, so not a math degree from the college's math department, but some sort of math specialty from the school of education.  I guess there is a difference?

That is a huge difference.

I just don't understand how our educational system is unable to ensure that teachers receive the proper training in college so they are able to effectively teach the subjects that they are hired to teach.  

Because the students who have the aptitude to succeed in mathematics (or sciences) can find much more lucrative and prestigious jobs with their skills than teaching which is underpaid and undervalued.  OTOH, you often have people who couldn't hack the major flunk out and switch to getting a teaching certificate. 

[Frances]

31 minutes ago, regentrude said:

That is a huge difference.

 

 

Because the students who have the aptitude to succeed in mathematics (or sciences) can find much more lucrative and prestigious jobs with their skills than teaching which is underpaid and undervalued.  OTOH, you often have people who couldn't hack the major flunk out and switch to getting a teaching certificate. 

My niece was a top student at a top LAC with a bio major and math minor. She wants to be a teacher and tutored/taught all through college at different places, including private high schools and inner city summer programs. Right now she is teaching in Japan and will get her MAT when she returns. I know she will make an excellent science and/or math middle school or high school teacher, but across the board, almost everyone has discouraged her from going into teaching, telling her she is too smart and can make more money doing something else.

It’s bad enough we don’t have teachers with math degrees teaching elementary and sometimes middle school math in this country. But to hear that it is going on in high schools is seriously depressing. I also don’t understand why someone would take a job knowing they were not capable of doing the work. My niece would have been in an absolute lock for programs like Teach for America. But despite her extensive experience teaching/tutoring math for many years, she felt it would be unfair to students to have someone like her teach them a full year of such an incredibly important subject like math, until she had more training and experience.

Edited August 30, 2018 by Frances

[madteaparty]

1 minute ago, HeighHo said:

Its up to the state. https://www.mathteacheredu.org/new-york/ is what a teacher here has to do. My dc have never had a problem with a middle or high school math teacher, every one has been competent although they are not allowed to teach at the honors level.  The Calc teacher here moonlights as a CC instructor,  can't say enough good things about her.  My child was well prepared for Diff Eq at college after her course.  Some of his classmates weren't but that is a reflection of poor effort.  There are enough qualified teachers here that no one is teaching out of their certification area. 

Have to disagree about underpaid, NY teachers are doing quite well when you look at the time involved and the bennies.  Industry here does not compensate that well for rank-and-file and they don't hold your job for you either if you take a leave for birth or parenting.   We have fantastic science teachers too -- laid off engineers who love having the summers for family and make more than they could as a nonmanager, a little less than if they were in cybersecurity.

I think some NY state teachers are paid more than tenured college professors.

It’s pretty hard in this state to become a teacher in terms of career change, but probably one of the easiest degrees otherwise, at least from what I hear from local public. . I looked into it (because I want to spend retirement teaching abroad, and most jobs require 2 yrs teaching in your own country) but I would need an entire new masters degree...in education. Which, doesn’t appeal, oddly. ? I’d rather get an MFA or something if I were hankering for more student loans...

[Terabith]

I've been working on my elementary certification.  I started out working on my masters in reading instruction back in Texas before we had kids, but then I moved to Virginia and time passed, so I've been poking along at it because if I go part time I get half price tuition at the place where I did my undergrad.  (I also have an M.Div.)  Back years ago, I had taken a child development class, a course on teaching second language learners, educational psych, and a few courses on teaching reading.  To get elementary certification in Virginia, I had to take a US history class (my several courses in world history weren't sufficient), an environmental science class, microeconomics, a "theory of education" course, a class in educational technology, a math concepts class (which is completely worthless), and courses in teaching math, science, and social studies.  I do student teaching next semester.  

Honestly....the classes are really, really dumb.  And frankly, my classmates are really, really dumb.  I'm a little frightened that these people are going to be teaching children, honestly.  If you're teaching high school, you major in the content area, but for elementary education, I think my special needs seventh grader could get B's without a lot of effort.  I had to teach my classmates how to use a protractor last semester.  They were college seniors.  It wasn't that they had just forgotten in the intervening years.  They had never learned how.  They also had no understanding of the most elementary math strategies taught in a good curriculum like Singapore or Right Start.  And they have NO knowledge of phonics, even the professors.  My (really otherwise wonderful) prof in the reading masters program was lecturing about why it was important to used balanced literacy and to teach children to pay attention to context because so many English words could not be sounded out.  She used the example of a first grade child trying to read the sentence, "The kite flies high."  The child didn't know how to read the word high, and the teacher kept telling the child to sound it out.  The professor was using this as an example of a word that could not be sounded out.  I finally raised my hand and said, "I mean, I get that it's unfair to ask children to sound out words when they haven't learned the phonograms or the rules to decode a particular word.  But high is not an irregular word.  Why not just tell her that the letters igh make the long i sound?"  The professor looked at me in shock and honestly said, "Um....well, I guess they do.  But they don't always?  Do they?"  For the rest of that class, I tried to teach my classmates and professor about the Spalding phonograms and rules.  I got the only 100 the professor said she had ever given in that course.  

[zejh]

My grandmother used to tell about how she got her master's degree in education with a papier mache rooster. This would have been 60 years ago or so. The capstone course, for whatever reason, had that as a final project. She was a kindergarten teacher, but she had been a top student back in college and found the graduate coursework considerably easier, though not necessarily ridiculous aside from the rooster. I guess it's not that new a thing?

 

[Chelli]

My AP Calculus teacher in high school was enrolled in calculus at the local university to complete her math certification. To teach high school math you had to have a math degree, but she didn't. The school needed a high school math teacher though, so she was bumped up from middle school to high school. 

Needless to say she had no clue how to teach AP Calculus. One of the guys in our class was naturally good at math, so he'd go home every night and study the textbook to learn the material. The next day at school, during lunch, he'd explain it to me, and then in our class after lunch, I'd teach the AP Calculus class (he understood the math, but couldn't explain it) while our teacher sat at her desk and took notes to help with her college class. ? At the time I thought it was kind of cool and fun, but looking back on it, it's shocking and sad.

[madteaparty]

edited out bc i'm pretty sure i had wrong info

Edited August 30, 2018 by madteaparty

[madteaparty]

13 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

So true about K12 pay vs college prof pay.  The nursing compensation is similarly crazy.....great pay for an LPN at the school district, peanuts elsewhere.   I'll note the RCGs doing engineering across the river are getting about $80k, no pension.  The new teachers here are getting $55k, with pension that will be very close to final salary.  Full time work 8 hrs/day, 52 weeks a yr vs 180 days at app 6 hrs/day. 

As a career changer, its pretty easy if you have the right undergrad.  From here, Western CT U is where they are grabbing their Master's due to course availability after work.  For an engineer with a master's its a piece of cake, and the district will pay for it via tuition reimbursement while working under a temp certificate  -- very hard to find people capable of successfully  teaching  Regent's Physics.  I've also known working musicians who've gone the career changer route. I looked into it at the local public U , and it was not a program I could complete; at the time (20 years ago) it was just too much emotional propaganda in the ed courses and in the math courses they wouldn't give me credit for courses I had taken as an undergrad since I had earned my M.S. six years earlier and they assumed no one has learned well enough to retain for that period of time, even if using that knowledge at work (ie they wanted $$$$$).  Far better ROI to pick up some programming courses. 

What is very hard is getting hired here as a teacher if female.  One needs connections, whether a career changer or a RCG.  (recent college grad).  The RCGs here are spending two years subbing, and then realizing there are no openings, so they take a job in a rural area upstate or special ed in the city.  In this area, there are many many people on the recall list that will be hired before a RCG in all areas except Physics. And with a poorer and poorer student pop, Physics is less and less a class in demand. 

I'd like to teach English overseas also, but the country my dh is mostly likely to get a long term assignment in doesn't want oldies like me.  The english programs in the area I would like to live in all have an age restriction on hiring.  I'm not sure I could get a visa to open my own shop or even work via skype. 

English teaching apparently doesn’t  get paid a living wage, one needs to work for one of these international schools. I was on a boat with a teacher from one such international school that had to leave her post bc no one over 60 allowed. ? they got what looks to me a better gig in a different country, and they liked moving every 2 yrs anyway.  She told me all about it over three days on a boat ?

i was at the library locally and this young woman was tutoring. I inquired about DD (she won't learn from me) and found out this lady was a recent master’s grad who works retail during the summer and basically temps every day during the school year. She seemed very diligent (and anyway 1:1 tutoring is always better) so I was shocked she didn’t have a full time gig. 

I don’t have the right undergrad ? I went back to being an attorney. Will revisit the teaching when I’m old. 

Edited August 30, 2018 by madteaparty

[Wheres Toto]

I definitely understand wanting teachers to be better trained, but won't requiring a Masters degree have even less people going for teaching, given the lousy pay many places?   Until it becomes something more valued, who is going to want to put the time and money into it?  It's a shame.

I have a degree in Elementary Education but never finished the certification process.    I already had a Biology degree with a ton of extra credits due to transfers, plus most of the credits I needed for a degree in Marketing.   I agree the classes were a joke.  I was required to take specific science class for teachers despite having many many science classes (I had a Bio degree!), I was required to take a specific math class for teachers despite having taken Calculus.  The math was some mixed math class covering a bunch of different stuff.  It seemed to go no higher than some very basic algebra and was super easy.

I also had a lousy Calculus teacher in high school when I attempted to take it.  It was the regular section but had many of the top students in my class because they had decided not to take Honors/AP Calc because they wanted an "easy senior year".  The class went from 30 students to 13 by the end of the first quarter because so many people dropped it.  Including me.   I took Calc in college but passed it by the skin of my teeth.

[1shortmomto4]

Terabith - are you at GMU?  your experience sounds a whole lot like my dd's experience.  She earned her AA at NOVA in Teacher Ed. which basically was most of the courses needed to fulfill the state's requirements for certification.  She took 4 different courses between the local CC and GMU that are required - theory of Ed, child development and psychology of children/education and all covered the same exact topics and the professors knew immediately that she was already well-versed in the subject so by class #3 they just said to submit basically the same papers from earlier courses - just change a few words and try not to answer all the questions to allow for others to become involved.  This semester she is in a course with many "older" students and they have already tried to dismiss her knowledge and experience just because she looks young. Last year my dd subbed as the Kindie teacher and the aide she was working with had recently graduated with her teaching degree (but couldn't find a position) and complained the whole time on how she hated kids and had gone back to school online to earn a different degree.  She spent 4 years working on the degree and hadn't figured it out before then?  There really needs to be an overhaul in the whole teaching degree to better prepare them - not just in knowledge but in exposure. And she'd agree with you - these students are not bright by any stretch of the imagination.  She comes home with many stories that make my head swirl.

 

[Frances]

3 hours ago, Where's Toto? said:

I definitely understand wanting teachers to be better trained, but won't requiring a Masters degree have even less people going for teaching, given the lousy pay many places?   Until it becomes something more valued, who is going to want to put the time and money into it?  It's a shame.

I have a degree in Elementary Education but never finished the certification process.    I already had a Biology degree with a ton of extra credits due to transfers, plus most of the credits I needed for a degree in Marketing.   I agree the classes were a joke.  I was required to take specific science class for teachers despite having many many science classes (I had a Bio degree!), I was required to take a specific math class for teachers despite having taken Calculus.  The math was some mixed math class covering a bunch of different stuff.  It seemed to go no higher than some very basic algebra and was super easy.

I also had a lousy Calculus teacher in high school when I attempted to take it.  It was the regular section but had many of the top students in my class because they had decided not to take Honors/AP Calc because they wanted an "easy senior year".  The class went from 30 students to 13 by the end of the first quarter because so many people dropped it.  Including me.   I took Calc in college but passed it by the skin of my teeth.

It seems ridiculous to me that some places require a Master’s in education, but allow middle or high school teachers to not have an undergraduate degree in their area of teaching. My FIL was a middle school social studies teacher for over 40 years, and he thought the most important part of the education degree was student teaching with an excellent teacher. For the most part, he thought the rest of it was a couple late waste of time and money.

[Terabith]

3 hours ago, 1shortmomto4 said:

Terabith - are you at GMU?  your experience sounds a whole lot like my dd's experience.  She earned her AA at NOVA in Teacher Ed. which basically was most of the courses needed to fulfill the state's requirements for certification.  She took 4 different courses between the local CC and GMU that are required - theory of Ed, child development and psychology of children/education and all covered the same exact topics and the professors knew immediately that she was already well-versed in the subject so by class #3 they just said to submit basically the same papers from earlier courses - just change a few words and try not to answer all the questions to allow for others to become involved.  This semester she is in a course with many "older" students and they have already tried to dismiss her knowledge and experience just because she looks young. Last year my dd subbed as the Kindie teacher and the aide she was working with had recently graduated with her teaching degree (but couldn't find a position) and complained the whole time on how she hated kids and had gone back to school online to earn a different degree.  She spent 4 years working on the degree and hadn't figured it out before then?  There really needs to be an overhaul in the whole teaching degree to better prepare them - not just in knowledge but in exposure. And she'd agree with you - these students are not bright by any stretch of the imagination.  She comes home with many stories that make my head swirl.

 

No.  I'm at Roanoke College, which is an amazing school.  My undergraduate degree in English was phenomenal and rigorous.  It's regularly rated as one of the colleges with the least grade inflation.  To be fair, my reading courses were all taken at University of Texas at San Antonio.  

[Mbelle]

My dd is getting a history ed degree.  At her college it is a degree in history with a teacher certificate added on.  It is more hours than most undergrad degrees because of this and she will have to do maymesters and a couple of summer courses to finish in 4 years.  Also, the state scholarship only covers the typical hours required for a bachelors so we will have to pay the full price for the extra classes.  

[kokotg]

My husband teaches Calculus at a local public school--a well regarded one that sends many students to very selective colleges. Most high school math teachers would not be comfortable teaching Calculus, and schools often hire new teachers specifically as Calc teachers because they're difficult to find. Like Regentrude said, teaching is not a high paid profession compared to most fields that people who are strong in math or science might go into (I know this is where someone brings up how high teacher salaries are in New Jersey or wherever, but, generally speaking, a teaching career does not pay nearly as well as the vast majority of jobs in which one is expected to have an advanced math or science degree). DH has a degree in math, not math education, and didn't plan to go into teaching back when he was in college. He has a masters in math education now, and, while he says he learned some worthwhile stuff doing it (he did it online, several years into his teaching career), it was definitely more about getting the pay bump than feeling like it would make him a better teacher. Teaching attracts an awful lot of caring, talented people who are doing it for reasons other than money....but between the relatively poor pay and the other significant job satisfaction issues, it can't attract enough of them to teach AP Calculus well at every school. 

[Angie in VA]

Wow. I'm glad that the teacher is at least seeking more training and that your dd is willing to help her! I hope the teacher will share your dd's contact info to provide her students a tutor. May your dd get rich in the process!

My dd was well-prepared to teach by the college she attended. They made those students dot every i and cross every t when it came to teacher licensure and it was basically a double major, b/c my dd had a TON of credits required for her major. Additionally, she was encouraged (perhaps required?) to attend professional conferences and become a member of several professional groups. 

Lastly, and I realize this is not the case mentioned in the OP, but I was a PS teacher in a former life and still have friends who are teaching. One is a foreign language teacher and the school put AP students in w/ her 4th year of the same language. They require two totally different preps! She is so frustrated by that but the school won't change and operates w/ the "It's close enough" mentality. That is one reason why some kids are not being prepared for the AP exam in some subjects. Ditto for the IB diploma and another friend of mine in the same county but different school and different language. 

[Angie in VA]

3 hours ago, Mbelle said:

My dd is getting a history ed degree.  At her college it is a degree in history with a teacher certificate added on.  It is more hours than most undergrad degrees because of this and she will have to do maymesters and a couple of summer courses to finish in 4 years.  Also, the state scholarship only covers the typical hours required for a bachelors so we will have to pay the full price for the extra classes.  

 

Posted before I saw this. Exactly this w/ the exception of paying tuition. DD also took a ton of credits in a freshman, and did the miraculous: graduated w/ a zillion credits in 4 years, including 1 semester of student teaching. 

[Angie in VA]

18 hours ago, Terabith said:

I've been working on my elementary certification.  I started out working on my masters in reading instruction back in Texas before we had kids, but then I moved to Virginia and time passed, so I've been poking along at it because if I go part time I get half price tuition at the place where I did my undergrad.  (I also have an M.Div.)  Back years ago, I had taken a child development class, a course on teaching second language learners, educational psych, and a few courses on teaching reading.  To get elementary certification in Virginia, I had to take a US history class (my several courses in world history weren't sufficient), an environmental science class, microeconomics, a "theory of education" course, a class in educational technology, a math concepts class (which is completely worthless), and courses in teaching math, science, and social studies.  I do student teaching next semester.  

Honestly....the classes are really, really dumb.  And frankly, my classmates are really, really dumb.  I'm a little frightened that these people are going to be teaching children, honestly.  If you're teaching high school, you major in the content area, but for elementary education, I think my special needs seventh grader could get B's without a lot of effort.  I had to teach my classmates how to use a protractor last semester.  They were college seniors.  It wasn't that they had just forgotten in the intervening years.  They had never learned how.  They also had no understanding of the most elementary math strategies taught in a good curriculum like Singapore or Right Start.  And they have NO knowledge of phonics, even the professors.  My (really otherwise wonderful) prof in the reading masters program was lecturing about why it was important to used balanced literacy and to teach children to pay attention to context because so many English words could not be sounded out.  She used the example of a first grade child trying to read the sentence, "The kite flies high."  The child didn't know how to read the word high, and the teacher kept telling the child to sound it out.  The professor was using this as an example of a word that could not be sounded out.  I finally raised my hand and said, "I mean, I get that it's unfair to ask children to sound out words when they haven't learned the phonograms or the rules to decode a particular word.  But high is not an irregular word.  Why not just tell her that the letters igh make the long i sound?"  The professor looked at me in shock and honestly said, "Um....well, I guess they do.  But they don't always?  Do they?"  For the rest of that class, I tried to teach my classmates and professor about the Spalding phonograms and rules.  I got the only 100 the professor said she had ever given in that course.  

 

WRT to the math (protractor and strategies), yes, many are not taught now b/c they're not on standardized tests! A few years ago I wrote to my high school geometry teacher (who also taught me physics, and even now I would sign up every class he taught were he still teaching!) and asked him to recommend a book that taught proofs. He wrote back that since proofs can't be on standardized tests, they are no longer teaching proofs. WHAT? He'd gone to the state board to plead his case to no avail. You'd better believe my dc learned to do proofs! 

WRT to the phonics: this is how we came to homeschool. I wasn't taught phonics and didn't trust the theory du jour to teach reading when First Born was going to enter K. I taught her at home. Then we just kept homeschooling. 

 

[elegantlion]

3 hours ago, Mbelle said:

My dd is getting a history ed degree.  At her college it is a degree in history with a teacher certificate added on.  It is more hours than most undergrad degrees because of this and she will have to do maymesters and a couple of summer courses to finish in 4 years.  Also, the state scholarship only covers the typical hours required for a bachelors so we will have to pay the full price for the extra classes.  

This is how it's setup at my previous school. However, the university is pushing to make it so all students can graduate in 4 years, so they may have to revamp the major. It may end up that history Ed majors don't actually take any history courses beyond survey level and the methods course. Right now history majors need 15 credits in upper level courses.

[Farrar]

I don't honestly think elementary school teachers need college degrees in the subjects they teach - it's not realistic, for one thing. They obviously don't need degrees in history, math, English, etc. etc. So it should make sense that they get an education degree... but then education classes are so horrible. Ideally, they would get a solid four year degree that had extra general ed requirements across the board, plus education courses that would somehow be more worth their time. Sigh. I do feel that making teaching a more proper profession is part of improving education in general in this country - making the coursework rich and challenging instead of just a series of hoops, making the certification process more like an apprenticeship, making teacher in service more worthwhile, increasing pay, increasing teacher autonomy after a certain level of certification, etc. etc. But education schools and school districts and textbook companies and other for profit entities in education insist on treating teachers like they're something that needs to be removed from the equation.

[Sneezyone]

I agree. I’ve nothing against ROBUST general studies degrees with a good chunk of student teaching for the elementary grades but that should still include solid math skills through Algebra 2/Trig. It’s secondary ed, MS/HS where I think teachers really should have one or more subject matter degrees or minors. I think lots of states allow elementary certified teachers to pinch hit in middle school and MS teachers to pinch hit in high schools when the licensure requirements aren’t as rigorous as they should be tho and the infantilization of teacher candidates in colleges/universities (as far as coursework/learning expectations) still seems common, even on matters of basic pedagogy.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Sneezyone

[Terabith]

Honestly, I would feel competent stepping into a middle school without any additional education.  But I have an undergraduate degree in English, am academically oriented and intellectually curious, and both took a wide variety of electives in college (including 2 semesters of calculus, discrete math, and several statistics classes) and have read widely throughout my adulthood.  I also have a seventh and a ninth grader, so I have a fair bit of recent experience with the middle school curriculum.  I'd feel competent to step into any math class through geometry, which I think is usually the top class taught in eighth grade here, and I'd feel fine teaching any middle school science or social studies.  I wouldn't feel comfortable teaching foreign language or art, but academic coursework through eighth grade would be fine.  I wouldn't really feel comfortable teaching high school math or science (beyond geometry or so), but I would be fine with English or most history classes, although I'd need to do some self study for certain high school social studies courses, especially AP syllabus ones.  

I'm not sure that I would feel comfortable with many of my elementary ed classmates doing the same, however, from what I've seen.  

Edited August 30, 2018 by Terabith
typo

[Frances]

5 hours ago, kokotg said:

My husband teaches Calculus at a local public school--a well regarded one that sends many students to very selective colleges. Most high school math teachers would not be comfortable teaching Calculus, and schools often hire new teachers specifically as Calc teachers because they're difficult to find. Like Regentrude said, teaching is not a high paid profession compared to most fields that people who are strong in math or science might go into (I know this is where someone brings up how high teacher salaries are in New Jersey or wherever, but, generally speaking, a teaching career does not pay nearly as well as the vast majority of jobs in which one is expected to have an advanced math or science degree). DH has a degree in math, not math education, and didn't plan to go into teaching back when he was in college. He has a masters in math education now, and, while he says he learned some worthwhile stuff doing it (he did it online, several years into his teaching career), it was definitely more about getting the pay bump than feeling like it would make him a better teacher. Teaching attracts an awful lot of caring, talented people who are doing it for reasons other than money....but between the relatively poor pay and the other significant job satisfaction issues, it can't attract enough of them to teach AP Calculus well at every school. 

It seems like in cases like this that using video teaching by a master teacher with some in person or online tutoring support would be a better use of money than hiring a calculus teacher that isn’t actually prepared to teach calculus. My high school math teacher had a math major but admitted to being a C student. He was great for algebra, geometry, and algebra II, but terrible for pre-Calc, the highest math offered. I’m not surprised that schools can’t find enough qualified Calc teachers given the pay/working conditions and often ridiculous education degree requirements. But hiring an unqualified teacher doesn’t seem like the best solution.

[wendyroo]

The state of teacher education in this country is just depressing...and has been for a long time.

I had a first grade teacher who could not even remotely explain negative numbers to me.  Which, granted, is an unusual topic for a first grader to be fascinated by, but I feel strongly that every licensed teacher should be able to answer rudimentary questions about negative numbers.  That is not a high math bar.

As I progressed through the system, the academic abilities of my teachers did not improve.  The majority of them did not have a firm handle on writing, grammar, math, basic science concepts.  Most of my high school teacher knew no more about the subject they were teaching than what was written in the textbook...and often far less than that.  My physics teacher slept through every class, and just suggested we teach ourselves from the book if we wanted to pass the class.

Most of my peers that went into education did so because it was easy.  Many started out studying science or journalism or economics, but then switched to education after a year or so when they couldn't cut it in their first major.  I did a lot of teaching and tutoring while I was in high school, and many of my teachers suggested I pursue a degree in education, but there was no way I was sitting through 4 years of anti-intellectual pablum in order to do a job that pays poorly, affords very little autonomy, and lacks prestige and respect. 

I did end up taking a couple education courses at MIT and even those were complete drivel...even MIT, where every student is an academic superstar, didn't bother to teach a rigorous education class!  During one of the classes, they actually had us making and racing small battery and paperclip motors.  We wasted two class periods doing that.  I think they mistakenly thought we were fourth graders, not university students who were 3/4 of the way to earning world-class engineering degrees.

At this point, if I had to outsource my children's education, I would choose a teacher who had majored in any academic subject rather than education.  I don't care if they have a degree in art history or women's studies, I would trust either of those as better indicators of academic rigor and intellectual curiosity than an education degree.

Wendy

[Mabelen]

Competent Math teachers are the hardest lot to find in my experience. We live in a highly educated, upper middle class suburban area. Our school district has an excellent reputation and students end up at all kinds of colleges, including many world class universities, many pursuing STEM majors. And yet, The fact is that they don't have enough competent math teachers, at any level. What is happening is that parents are hiring private tutors or teaching their kids themselves at home in order to make sure that their kids are well prepared.

In my area, I don't see older people turning to teaching as a second career. There is all the credentialing hoops to jump over, plus starting teaching salaries are low for a high cost of living area although the benefits are good. Teaching is profitable as a long term career, because by the time they have a couple of decades of experience, the salary has become competitive.

[alewife]

5 hours ago, Mabelen said:

Competent Math teachers are the hardest lot to find in my experience. We live in a highly educated, upper middle class suburban area. Our school district has an excellent reputation and students end up at all kinds of colleges, including many world class universities, many pursuing STEM majors. And yet, The fact is that they don't have enough competent math teachers, at any level. What is happening is that parents are hiring private tutors or teaching their kids themselves at home in order to make sure that their kids are well prepared.

In my area, I don't see older people turning to teaching as a second career. There is all the credentialing hoops to jump over, plus starting teaching salaries are low for a high cost of living area although the benefits are good. Teaching is profitable as a long term career, because by the time they have a couple of decades of experience, the salary has become competitive.

The same is happening in some pockets of my area.  Math tutors are in high demand. I tutor kids after school, and I am usually booked from 3 pm - 7pm, sometimes 8 pm every week night plus Saturdays. (I turn down Sunday requests).  Many of the families reserve a time slot to meet once a week for the entire school year.  

Just recently, I had a new family call me inquiring if I could teach calculus to their son.  I didn't quite understand the situation, but he was in public school and he was getting money from the state to pay for a tutor.  However, I couldn't take him on as a new client, despite the fact that I have an engineering degree with a minor in math and have a track record of my kids getting 5's on the BC exam: the state agency didn't deem me qualified because I didn't have a teaching degree.

The teaching degree requirement is another reason that private schools in my area are academically superior to the public schools:  the middle and high school teachers in the private schools I am familiar with don't have teaching degrees. These private schools can legally hire engineers and math majors to teach in their schools.

It is scary to read that this "math problem" is not confined to my area.  The educational "experts" are so focused on test results when they should be looking at the other end of the "production line."  We had a saying on the manufacturing floor that you can't inspect quality into a product.  The educational experts should modify the phrase to say that you can't test an education into a child.  How can we expect good outcomes when our teachers haven't been trained and are therefore not qualified to do their jobs?

[Sebastian (a lady)]

My MS Ed was through a military career transition program.  Nearly every student was either active duty military or a veteran with many years of military experience. We all already had undergraduate degrees, often in technical fields.

In addition to the education courses I had to show that I had enough coursework to meet licensing requirements for the grades and specialties I intended to teach.  

In my undergrad I had a BS in English with chemistry,  physics, electrical engineering, thermodynamics, weapons systems engineering, naval architecture, and naval engineering courses.  I was deemed to be deficient in science because they only counted the chemistry and physics courses.  (I took a physical geography course via correspondence to make up the deficiency. )

Even though I had an English degree with over a dozen courses that required papers and written output, I was deemed deficient in rhetoric courses, having taken one and validated one instead of taking two.  

So I took a course in teaching composition (writing) that was cross coded as an undergrad and grad course.  This was the sole course I took on campus from the school of education. The instructor was good but the students were sobering. Many complained about the length and difficulty of the reading assignments (which were pretty standard pieces about rhetoric) and freely discussed how much they disliked writing and felt inadequate at it (notably during a class session on grading essays).

As a group the ed department undergraduate students were much less impressive than the non-traditional students who were in the program with me.  Some of that was age, experience, and maturity.  Some of it was being well versed in content outside education courses.