creekland Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Assuming all is as written, of course, one has to admit, this is a just ending to the story! South African lions eat 'poacher', leaving just his head http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-43035474 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Although it sounds like a horrid way to go, I agree there is a great sense of irony. Perhaps a new candidate for the Darwin awards. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternalsummer Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Now for the day when factory farmed pigs escape and eat everyone at the local fast food joint. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Now for the day when factory farmed pigs escape and eat everyone at the local fast food joint. So you’d be okay with children and families being killed and devoured by homicidal pigs just because they went out for lunch? :svengo: I’m sorry, but that sounds way too extreme. I can’t even take it as a joke. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 What a horrible way for anyone to die - even a criminal. I don't see this as a fun thing to share. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted February 12, 2018 Author Share Posted February 12, 2018 What a horrible way for anyone to die - even a criminal. I don't see this as a fun thing to share. It's not like you were forced to read it. I posted what it was about in the title and skipping threads is allowed. I still think it's great poetic justice whether the lions killed him themselves or whether someone else did and left his body for them. I have no sympathy for poachers, absolutely none. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternalsummer Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 So you’d be okay with children and families being killed and devoured by homicidal pigs just because they went out for lunch? :svengo: I’m sorry, but that sounds way too extreme. I can’t even take it as a joke. I'm not making it as a joke, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of wishing a hunter to die by being eaten by the animal he's killing when I would guess 98% of people saying "poetic justice" would not like to suffer from a similar poetic justice of their own (sanctioned) cruelty. In reality I would feel badly both for the hunter eaten by a lion and the fast food eater eaten by a pig. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 I'm not making it as a joke, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of wishing a hunter to die by being eaten by the animal he's killing when I would guess 98% of people saying "poetic justice" would not like to suffer from a similar poetic justice of their own (sanctioned) cruelty. In reality I would feel badly both for the hunter eaten by a lion and the fast food eater eaten by a pig. Thank you for clarifying! You had me worried for a minute there! :) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gstharr Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Assuming all is as written, of course, one has to admit, this is a just ending to the story! South African lions eat 'poacher', leaving just his head http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-43035474 I thought the story was not only ironic but quite funny as well. Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear eats you, came immediately to mind. the origin of the expression is also interesting. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 (edited) I'm not making it as a joke, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of wishing a hunter to die by being eaten by the animal he's killing when I would guess 98% of people saying "poetic justice" would not like to suffer from a similar poetic justice of their own (sanctioned) cruelty. In reality I would feel badly both for the hunter eaten by a lion and the fast food eater eaten by a pig. You may no like it, but many (most?) people judge it very differently to kill an animal for food vs to kill an animal for entertainment and trophy. Edited February 13, 2018 by regentrude 17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seasider Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 What a horrible way for anyone to die - even a criminal. I don't see this as a fun thing to share. True irony is rarely funny. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwalker Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 You may no like it, but the many (most?) people judge it very differently to kill an animal for food vs to kill an animal for entertainment and trophy.And people who live where lions do judge it as life-saving to kill a lion sometimes. Not on preserves, but near where families live. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 You may no like it, but many (most?) people judge it very differently to kill an animal for food vs to kill an animal for entertainment and trophy. Especially to illegally kill an endangered animal. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seasider Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 I thought the story was not only ironic but quite funny as well. Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear eats you, came immediately to mind. the origin of the expression is also interesting. Or, a twist on live by the sword, die by the sword. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravin Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 You may no like it, but many (most?) people judge it very differently to kill an animal for food vs to kill an animal for entertainment and trophy. Many people consider factory farming of livestock to be just as unethical and wrong as trophy hunting (or hunting for profit which is more common). That can be true even if you have some sympathy for people doing it--ex: pig farmers have to do things a certain way in order to compete economically. While some find a niche market for ethically raised meat, the only way to really get rid of the problem practice is to ban the ethically dubious practices across the industry, and enforce such bans. Just as the only way to stop hunting lions is to enforce bans--but even then, anywhere the profit is high enough to warrant the risk (of getting caught and of the penalty when caught), poaching and black markets will flourish. This OP article strikes me as more likely a case of vigilante justice to increase deterrence--whatever the penalties for poaching, they likely do not include the death penalty, and reality is many of the poachers are trying to make a living, not hunting for sport. That problem is being worked on through education and improving economic circumstances in Africa, along with better law enforcement (which in many places is at best sketchy. Like, Wild West sketchy, but with lots more people and wider spaces of wilderness). There is irony there--but it strikes me as crafted rather than serendipitous. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gstharr Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 True irony is rarely funny. A college professor explained the difference between tragedy and comedy this way; If it happened to him, it was tragic. If it happened to you, it was comedy. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gstharr Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Many people consider factory farming of livestock to be just as unethical and wrong as trophy hunting (or hunting for profit which is more common). That can be true even if you have some sympathy for people doing it--ex: pig farmers have to do things a certain way in order to compete economically. While some find a niche market for ethically raised meat, the only way to really get rid of the problem practice is to ban the ethically dubious practices across the industry, and enforce such bans. Just as the only way to stop hunting lions is to enforce bans--but even then, anywhere the profit is high enough to warrant the risk (of getting caught and of the penalty when caught), poaching and black markets will flourish. This OP article strikes me as more likely a case of vigilante justice to increase deterrence--whatever the penalties for poaching, they likely do not include the death penalty, and reality is many of the poachers are trying to make a living, not hunting for sport. That problem is being worked on through education and improving economic circumstances in Africa, along with better law enforcement (which in many places is at best sketchy. Like, Wild West sketchy, but with lots more people and wider spaces of wilderness). There is irony there--but it strikes me as crafted rather than serendipitous. Whatcha talking about, Willis? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 A college professor explained the difference between tragedy and comedy this way; If it happened to him, it was tragic. If it happened to you, it was comedy. I never find horrific death to be funny. It might be "karmic" (to borrow from another faith tradition.) It might be ironic. But to celebrate what happened? To find it funny? I find that reaction to be devoid of humanity. The "poetic justice" in "those who live by the sword, die by the sword" is a sad reality that many find out to be true. I'm not happy when gang members are killed, for example, even as I recognize that it is the ultimate consequence for many and hope that they will find it a deterrent. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gstharr Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 I never find horrific death to be funny. It might be "karmic" (to borrow from another faith tradition.) It might be ironic. But to celebrate what happened? To find it funny? I find that reaction to be devoid of humanity. The "poetic justice" in "those who live by the sword, die by the sword" is a sad reality that many find out to be true. I'm not happy when gang members are killed, for example, even as I recognize that it is the ultimate consequence for many and hope that they will find it a deterrent. So Jean in Newcastle, I guess this is why they say homesschoolers can't take a joke. Oh my god, in public school, they said the earth was round. Every newspaper, man bites dog is news. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternalsummer Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 You may no like it, but many (most?) people judge it very differently to kill an animal for food vs to kill an animal for entertainment and trophy. But I quite deliberately didn't refer to people killing an animal for food vs killing it for entertainment (or profit); I referred to factory farming, which is not killing an animal but torturing it. The difference between killing a deer for food and keeping a pig in factory farm conditions is, to me, similar to the difference between killing an animal for food vs killing it for entertainment - in one case, you're justified by at least the need to eat, maybe. In the other, you're causing suffering to an innocent creature for no good reason (cheap bacon? it tastes good? trophy on the wall? etc.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted February 13, 2018 Author Share Posted February 13, 2018 But I quite deliberately didn't refer to people killing an animal for food vs killing it for entertainment (or profit); I referred to factory farming, which is not killing an animal but torturing it. The difference between killing a deer for food and keeping a pig in factory farm conditions is, to me, similar to the difference between killing an animal for food vs killing it for entertainment - in one case, you're justified by at least the need to eat, maybe. In the other, you're causing suffering to an innocent creature for no good reason (cheap bacon? it tastes good? trophy on the wall? etc.) FWIW, I'm against factory farmed animals with horrid conditions and choose what we buy accordingly since we can now afford it (certified humane free range, etc), but... I gotta admit I loved the spiel a comedian gave about it all. It went something like: (At a restaurant) Sir, would you like the free range chicken? Oh, you mean the one that was happy with its life before you killed it? No, let that one live. Give me the one that was miserable and couldn't wait for its life to be over. I'm an omnivore, so have no issues with animals being food for humans or other critters, but yes, I think we ought to be treating all animals humanely. I also think poachers need to be stopped by whatever methods work. Hunting legally has its place, but poaching to sell parts for huge profits (as this guy did) or for trophies does not. The only time I'd give poaching a pass is for someone who is hungry - similar to stealing bread. Then I'd want to see that they got help in order to not need to poach again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 You may no like it, but many (most?) people judge it very differently to kill an animal for food vs to kill an animal for entertainment and trophy. What if the poacher were killing animals as a way to earn money to feed his family? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 https://theproblemofpoaching.wordpress.com/2013/08/31/who-profits-from-poaching/ From the above link: "It is worth noting though that the figures involved when analysing rhino horn are not indicative of the profits in other types of illicit wildlife goods. When dealing with less valuable species, there have been reported cases of the actual poachers themselves being paid in food, such as a bag of beans or flour. Indeed, rhino poaching seems to be the exception: in the overwhelming majority of cases the poachers themselves make very little from the transaction with the majority of the profit flowing to the later stages of the trafficking and distribution process." 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravin Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 https://theproblemofpoaching.wordpress.com/2013/08/31/who-profits-from-poaching/ From the above link: "It is worth noting though that the figures involved when analysing rhino horn are not indicative of the profits in other types of illicit wildlife goods. When dealing with less valuable species, there have been reported cases of the actual poachers themselves being paid in food, such as a bag of beans or flour. Indeed, rhino poaching seems to be the exception: in the overwhelming majority of cases the poachers themselves make very little from the transaction with the majority of the profit flowing to the later stages of the trafficking and distribution process." Thank you for that. Often, the problem isn't simple. Whether it's African poaching, Somali pirates, or illegal Amazon gold mining...often included in those suffering are the ones doing the criminal things trying to make a living. That they act out of desperation or with limited options before them doesn't make it right...but it also means that we need to look further up the economic chain and hold those accountable who are truly profiting off the misery and desperation of others along with the destruction of the natural world. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Now for the day when factory farmed pigs escape and eat everyone at the local fast food joint. Oh, good grief. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-rap Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 (edited) Wow, that's pretty horrific! I agree with Ravin, that the problem really is complicated. Another example would be the elephant. I'm sure we'd all agree that elephants are beautiful creatures and killing them for their ivory tusks is cruel and inhumane. But other people besides the poachers themselves need to be complicit in order for poachers to be able to get away with it. Elephants are massive and powerful. They don't walk around vegetation, they plow right over it, often completely destroying it. A struggling farmer's entire food source can be completely wiped out in no time at all. I imagine they'd sometimes turn a blind eye toward a poacher who -- in the farmer's mind -- is taking care of a major pest. ETA: Weirdly, I was in Hoedspruit, near where the event took place, just last year. I suppose that makes it seem particularly gruesome. Edited February 13, 2018 by J-rap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted February 13, 2018 Author Share Posted February 13, 2018 Thank you for that. Often, the problem isn't simple. Whether it's African poaching, Somali pirates, or illegal Amazon gold mining...often included in those suffering are the ones doing the criminal things trying to make a living. That they act out of desperation or with limited options before them doesn't make it right...but it also means that we need to look further up the economic chain and hold those accountable who are truly profiting off the misery and desperation of others along with the destruction of the natural world. I agree that all in the chain of the process need to be held accountable. For the actual poacher, I see it no differently than a person in poverty in the US stealing pets to resell. Sure, they might need the money to eat, but they (and the community around them) need to come up with other options. Endangered animals are few in number. Animals in Reserves belong to everyone. They aren't "fair game." Nuisance animals can be dealt with legally. In many places with the parks/reserves, they are working to build up tourism to provide jobs and income. It's a work in progress, but it's happening. It won't if the impressive animals keep disappearing. My guess in this specific situation local folks knew what this person was doing - stealing lions that weren't fair game to be stolen - and did him in themselves due to lack of other ways to stop him, then left his body for the lions. I don't know that, of course, but it seems more plausible than lions outsmarting an experienced poacher with a loaded weapon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ann.without.an.e Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 (edited) Assuming all is as written, of course, one has to admit, this is a just ending to the story! South African lions eat 'poacher', leaving just his head http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-43035474 I found it interesting. Sad that someone would poach like that? Yes. Sad that he was eaten by a lion? Yes. Yet still interesting. Edited February 13, 2018 by Attolia 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldberry Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Similar to the irony here... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/feb/08/cock-kills-man-california-cockfight Bird kills man at cockfight Man dies after being stabbed by knife attached to rooster's limb at illegal cockfight in California 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 I agree that all in the chain of the process need to be held accountable. For the actual poacher, I see it no differently than a person in poverty in the US stealing pets to resell. Sure, they might need the money to eat, but they (and the community around them) need to come up with other options. Endangered animals are few in number. Animals in Reserves belong to everyone. They aren't "fair game." Nuisance animals can be dealt with legally. In many places with the parks/reserves, they are working to build up tourism to provide jobs and income. It's a work in progress, but it's happening. It won't if the impressive animals keep disappearing. My guess in this specific situation local folks knew what this person was doing - stealing lions that weren't fair game to be stolen - and did him in themselves due to lack of other ways to stop him, then left his body for the lions. I don't know that, of course, but it seems more plausible than lions outsmarting an experienced poacher with a loaded weapon. One thing that is a little different is in many places, the options when you have nothing are very limited - more than they are here. There are no social services, and there are no food banks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted February 13, 2018 Author Share Posted February 13, 2018 One thing that is a little different is in many places, the options when you have nothing are very limited - more than they are here. There are no social services, and there are no food banks. If my suspicion is correct and local folks did him in, I doubt he had no other options. I suspect he just didn't choose to do anything differently. Not many feel like the man stealing bread must spend his life in prison (as in Les Miserables). There are places and times when poaching happens and folks look the other way because of the lack of options - sometimes while simultaneously working to provide options. But again, I doubt a seasoned lion hunter got outgamed by an abnormally smart lion. Maybe, but doubtful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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