S/O Teens and Sexuality: today's YA books are sexless

[poppy]

Interesting article today: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/09/books/review/sex-young-adult-fiction.html?mtrref=undefined&gwh=47E9C619E61897095177D213B544C188&gwt=pay

 

"I wonder if the reason today’s young adult fiction feels so sexually airless is that it lacks what made Blume and her peers seem so dangerous: Their books were physically arousing. In adult books, that trait is often a reliable sign of bad writing. But for teenagers, who are still strangers or newcomers to sex, the bonus physical stimulation of something like “Forever†or “Domestic Arrangements†can be validating, a way of making pleasure ordinary, appropriate enough to check out of the library. Those books were not afraid to let teenagers know that good sex can also be a good story."

 

I can easily see why today's YA superstars like John Green and Rainbow Rowell , who are on twitter engaging with their 15 year old fans, do not wish to write explicit material.

 

But on the other hand, there is much more p-rn now, right at the time popular fiction refuses to talk about sexuality, and I don't think that's better than what most of us grew up with.  Where is the healthy, normal exploration?

[Ann.without.an.e]

When is the last time you’ve seen a good rom-com? Do they make them anymore? Just a general rambling question that I’ve asked myself lately.

I feel like everyone is so afraid of anything coming close to sexuality. Everything is taboo to someone and in general I think we will see more and more of a shift to an asexual world. We are just as afraid of topics surrounding sexuality as we were a hundred years ago but for different reasons.

 

ETA - it is so complicated, right?  While a woman desires to feel pursued by a man, many of the past ways a man might pursue a woman can be called out as sexist or wrong.  I think we have had a cultural shift and we don't even know what it all should look like.  We are all figuring it out as we go.  The #metoo movement is going to shift this even more.  It is not a bad thing at all, it is just new.

 

I don't feel like this has anything to do with your original question  :lol:   These are just my rambling morning thoughts.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Attolia

[poppy]

I dunno.  I never read those books as a teen.  I think I was in like 4th grade when I read "Are You There God, It's Me, Margaret."  But by the time I was in 6th, I was reading Anne McCaffery and other sci fi books that were not specifically targeted at teens.  Now, it's true that sci fi novels, the genere in general, can be littered with plenty of sex.  Some more than others.  But the story isn't about sex, it's about colonizing another planet, or space battles, or whatever.  Well, usually anyway lol. 

 

I had a friend in high school who read a LOT of VC Andrews.  I read exactly one paragraph of one of her books once and that was enough to know I was never going to be interested in that particular author. 

 

Having not read much of that type of stuff, I am not sure it's "necessary" to have that type of fiction being written.  That doesn't mean that I think it shouldn't be allowed or something, just that I think healthy, normal exploration is certainly possible without reading those sorts of books. 

 

Re: the bolded: where? If we don't want them watching, or reading that just leaves.  Actually trying? LOL

 

All my friends read VC Andrews.  It's terrible writing and terrible role modeling for healthy relationships too.  But it's SPICY and there is an appetite for that.

 

I suspect today's literature-type teens get their smut from fanfiction.   Which is.... OK?  But, fanfic usually more transgressive than normal teen romance. Nothing is off the table in fanfic, in general.   There is a very well known Harry / Bellatrix romance out there for goodness sake. Not to mention the fanfic based on real life celebrities.  I'd much rather have stuff by very good authors, writing about normal teenagers.

[Katy]

Apparently exploring sex in YA has been shifted to satisfying that curiosity with porn?  Not healthy, but I'm not sure sex in Forever was particularly healthy either, as much as it was a marker for its era. I don't think I ever read VC Andrews.  I did read Johanna Lindsey bodice-ripper romance novels after finding them lying around in a home I babysat at frequently as a young teen.

 

Forever was a vastly different world than I had growing up in the 90's.  And my world is vastly different from my kids.

 

The problem with romantic comedies is that many of the tropes that kept couples apart in the past - class, race, background, religious reasons for avoiding a romance are no longer politically correct.  And other ideas aren't something many teens do.  Hookup culture and the internet have changed teen social lives so much.

 

I think the last good romantic comedy I loved was Easy A, which was about teens, but even that was what?  Five years ago?

[Farrar]

I follow YA trends and my gut feeling is that this is on the cusp of changing - perhaps not in the superstar stuff, but certainly on the margins. There are some romance presses pushing into YA that have a slightly more steamy and less distant approach for example. There's a ton more stuff now than five or ten years ago about LGBTQ romance and sex. I think it's part of a shifting landscape.

 

Also of note, teens have less sex now, statistically speaking. So maybe it makes sense and reflects reality.

 

I would also say... I don't know if Blume and L'Engle and some of the other examples of YA back in the day are really that steamy. I mean, that half a page in House Like a Lotus that they reference... L'Engle made it oddly steamy by saying less. Like, does anyone else remember that? Polly just dissolves into non-linear, non-prose words for like eight or ten lines of the book. And then it's over. And the *drawback* of a book like that is that the consent issues are not spelled out - she just has sex without having discussed it much beforehand. She doesn't have safe sex - yeah, it's before HIV and people were more cavalier, but still, come on responsible Polly! And her boyfriend is much, much older. And none of this stuff is explored very well well. (And all of this is aside from the way the book addresses lesbian issues and culture... oy, whole other ballpark... and I would argue that IS done with a ten foot pole, as well intentioned as L'Engle was at the time.) Even in Judy Blume, none of it is very sexy, it's more funny. She deals with it by being light.

[Farrar]

Re: the bolded: where? If we don't want them watching, or reading that just leaves.  Actually trying? LOL

 

All my friends read VC Andrews.  It's terrible writing and terrible role modeling for healthy relationships too.  But it's SPICY and there is an appetite for that.

 

I suspect today's literature-type teens get their smut from fanfiction.   Which is.... OK?  But, fanfic usually more transgressive than normal teen romance. Nothing is off the table in fanfic, in general.   There is a very well known Harry / Bellatrix romance out there for goodness sake. Not to mention the fanfic based on real life celebrities.  I'd much rather have stuff by very good authors, writing about normal teenagers.

 

Fanfic is interesting. One of the trends I feel like I've seen in fic, which I've been reading off and on for decades, is that it used to be that sites like FF would periodically clean off the really smutty, super transgressive stuff. Now that AO3 is rapidly becoming the biggest site - they never clean off anything. Like, ever. But there's so much more in the way of warning. People warn about everything. And I've seen consent in fic - both smutty fic and more general fic - get way more important. Like, oh, can I please do this crazy thing to you? Yes, you absolutely can. Are you sure? Yes, let's do it. And then they do... in graphic detail. Even in bizarre things like Harry/Snape (okay, at least, I assume, because I can't bring myself to read that... ever... I just know it exists).

[Farrar]

Where?  Sex, good and bad is like all over our culture.  A teen does not have to go hunting down books aimed at teens specifically about sex in order to find examples of good and bad sex.  

 

Now again, that doesn't mean I think that sort of stuff should be banned.  I am not saying I don't think it's the only avenue available. 

 

Sex is all over our culture... but in things like ads that use sexy imagery to sell products and jokes about sex told everywhere from movies to sitcoms and street corners. I don't feel like there really are a ton of healthy explorations of sex out there for teens to easily find.

 

I don't know that Judy Blume was so great back in the day either... I mean, most of my friends got their steamy stuff from VC Andrews, who was busy normalizing incest, so I'd hardly call that healthy.

[Tess in the Burbs]

Interesting b/c my dd puts back a lot of books at the library for sexual stuff she doesn't want to read about.  Her choices.  She always tells me if a book isn't something she wants to read and why.  Some I had picked out from reading the jacket cover so she can let me know hahaha  She feels like it all has too much sex in it.  She just wants to read about a good hero and their adventure

 

[Tsuga]

I don't know that everyone's looking at pr0n.

 

There is a lot more satisfying fanfic out there on the Internet as well, and you can also talk about it anonymously, which makes it much more accessible, even if watching videos of naked people weirds you out.

[Crimson Wife]

Hmm, I remember Forever being scandalous back in the day precisely because it included s*x instead of the sanitized relationships typical for YA of that era. I never heard of Norma Klein and my friends and I were prolific readers. V.C. Andrews was considered adult fiction that we had to sneak because our parents definitely would not have approved of us reading her novels.

[Bluegoat]

I'm not convinced Judy Blume was arousing particularly.  I generally liked the way she and authors like her handled those topics because they were very real.  Teens could see themselves reflected and relate to the experiences of the characters.  That being said, I think they tend to lack in the thought provoking department.

 

But I don't think reading about sex in a book that turns you on is somehow legitimizing desire for teens.  Really, you can never have that happen and it is going to make no difference to people in the bigger picture.  I also think it tends just as much as adult novels to be related to being crappy writing.

 

Anyway - I don't know that I agree with the premise that sex is missing from teen novels.  Several of the ones she mentions are directed at tweens as much as teens and I'd say the expectations for those are groups are different.  Authors that wasn't broader appeal may keep that in mind.  The other thing that strikes me is there was a period where there was a lot of sex in adult novels too - it seemed like publishers told authors they needed at least two per book.  I don't see that now much.  It may be that YA has just followed the general trend.

 

I wonder to if part of what might make an author hesitant is just the kind of question this raises about sexual interactions that would now be considered unacceptable.  Who wants to wander into territory that in a few years might be a social taboo?  The 70's was kind of the height for sexual freedoms, before AIDS and also before people started to realize maybe there were more complications that they might have wanted.

 

 

[eternalsummer]

I don't remember sex in Judy Bloom, but I may not have read much of her.

 

At any rate, I have to filter very heavily for sex and sexual relationships in YA novels for my 12 year old.  The stuff I read as a kid -  L'Engle, UK Le Guin, Lois Lowry, etc. - was less sex-focused (if it was there at all) and most relationships were primary, that is to say there wasn't a lot of sleeping around.

 

My mom keeps trying to buy DD12 books by Tamora Pierce, which is about as far, morally, from what I consider an acceptable portrayal of ideal sexuality as possible in YA.  Stephanie Meyer, Suzanne Collins, Leigh Bardugo, etc. are not a hell of a lot better, although at least in those the characters are somewhat conflicted about their bad relationship decisions.

 

I've actually skipped a fair amount of current YA for DD12 in favor of works written for adults, which seem to have less of the "girl is in a quasi-relationship with two (or more!) guys, which one will she choose?  and btw it's totally not a problem for her to have sexual contact with both of them concurrently, and the only concern about having sex without being married is whether she's got some sort of birth control because babies are the WORST, etc."

 

Connie Willis in particular is generally speaking pretty sexless, even when there are romantic relationships - they're rarely the dramatic focus or the essential conflict.

[poppy]

I have to put in a plug for Georgette Heyer, for the teens who’d like regency romances. She has all the character development and setting but none of the bodice ripping. And her male characters are as complex and compelling as her protagonists.

 

Completely sexless, right? 

[poppy]

Where?  Sex, good and bad is like all over our culture.  A teen does not have to go hunting down books aimed at teens specifically about sex in order to find examples of good and bad sex.  

 

Now again, that doesn't mean I think that sort of stuff should be banned.  I am not saying I don't think it's the only avenue available. 

 

Sex is everywhere, I don't know what on earth my 7 year old thinks when we walk past Victoria's Secret or similar "look at women in underwear" stores.  But that's advertising, not art.  Art helps you understand the world.

 

My kids are big readers. More reading than actual social interactions (like a lot of people, honestly).  They talk about  jokes and anecdotes from books aimed at kids their age age (think: Judy Moody, Big Nate).   At some point when they are is 13, 14, 15, I would like for them to have the OPTION to read about sex and relationships that are somewhere between the relatively chaste YA stuff and, say,  Anne Rice or George RR Martin. Or whatever other adult sci fi / fantasy stuff that's out there that  a lot of teens read.

 

I mean,  i don't really 'want' that, but that's certainly what drew my interest at that age. I acknowledge it is normal and OK.

[Rosie_0801]

My mom keeps trying to buy DD12 books by Tamora Pierce, which is about as far, morally, from what I consider an acceptable portrayal of ideal sexuality as possible in YA. 

 

Heh. That's funny. I consider Tamora Pierce the only acceptable option I can think of and read it to my 10 year old!

[wonderchica]

I don't remember sex in Judy Bloom, but I may not have read much of her.

 

At any rate, I have to filter very heavily for sex and sexual relationships in YA novels for my 12 year old. The stuff I read as a kid - L'Engle, UK Le Guin, Lois Lowry, etc. - was less sex-focused (if it was there at all) and most relationships were primary, that is to say there wasn't a lot of sleeping around.

 

My mom keeps trying to buy DD12 books by Tamora Pierce, which is about as far, morally, from what I consider an acceptable portrayal of ideal sexuality as possible in YA. Stephanie Meyer, Suzanne Collins, Leigh Bardugo, etc. are not a hell of a lot better, although at least in those the characters are somewhat conflicted about their bad relationship decisions.

 

I've actually skipped a fair amount of current YA for DD12 in favor of works written for adults, which seem to have less of the "girl is in a quasi-relationship with two (or more!) guys, which one will she choose? and btw it's totally not a problem for her to have sexual contact with both of them concurrently, and the only concern about having sex without being married is whether she's got some sort of birth control because babies are the WORST, etc."

 

Connie Willis in particular is generally speaking pretty sexless, even when there are romantic relationships - they're rarely the dramatic focus or the essential conflict.

Suzanne Collins and Stephanie Meyers are big on the not-great love triangle, sure, but I don’t recall any sex in Hunger Games, let alone with both guys. And in Twilight, sex was off the table until marriage. Maybe they have saucier material I haven’t read?

[eternalsummer]

Heh. That's funny. I consider Tamora Pierce the only acceptable option I can think of and read it to my 10 year old!

 

I suspect you and my mom have similar perspectives on sex and relationships and women's roles and etc. :)  What's funny to me is that my mom, knowing I'm very socially conservative, keeps sending me these books for DD that promote an entirely different worldview.  It would be like if I sent my mom all Christian romantic fiction, and not modern stuff (does that even exist?  I dunno) - I'm not Christian, but her worldview is probably as separate from a "don't have sex until married, don't have abortions, don't cheat, don't have sequential or concurrent romantic relationships, don't have women inhabiting mens' roles and the reverse, etc." as possible.  She would consider me a little dense if I sent her book recs like that - and yet I get Holly Black and Cassandra Clare and Tamora Pierce, it's so weird.

 

 

That's pretty funny that we have completely opposite views of acceptable YA lit and yet there's something out there for both of us (even if the majority of YA is still unacceptable).

[eternalsummer]

Suzanne Collins and Stephanie Meyers are big on the not-great love triangle, sure, but I don’t recall any sex in Hunger Games, let alone with both guys. And in Twilight, sex was off the table until marriage. Maybe they have saucier material I haven’t read?

 

Yes, when I said sexual relationships I didn't mean just sexual intercourse.  I wasn't sure how to word it, though, there might be a better way.

[poppy]

Fanfic is interesting. One of the trends I feel like I've seen in fic, which I've been reading off and on for decades, is that it used to be that sites like FF would periodically clean off the really smutty, super transgressive stuff. Now that AO3 is rapidly becoming the biggest site - they never clean off anything. Like, ever. But there's so much more in the way of warning. People warn about everything. And I've seen consent in fic - both smutty fic and more general fic - get way more important. Like, oh, can I please do this crazy thing to you? Yes, you absolutely can. Are you sure? Yes, let's do it. And then they do... in graphic detail. Even in bizarre things like Harry/Snape (okay, at least, I assume, because I can't bring myself to read that... ever... I just know it exists).

 

You're right.  AO3 is very, very specific, and has tags for everything and I mean everything.  It's strange, but, in that particular world of writing, it is useful.  If I see   "dark" or  "dubcon" (dubious consent)  it's really easy to say no thank you, goodbye.

 

My theory on why slash (male 'romance') fanfic is so popular is that most deeply sympathetic and well fleshed-out fiction characters  are men.  I could be wrong.

[Tanaqui]

My theory on why slash (male 'romance') fanfic is so popular is that most deeply sympathetic and well fleshed-out fiction characters  are men.  I could be wrong.

 

No, that's a widely accepted theory. If you're watching ST: TOS and you want to write about relationships, you either have to invent a ton of female characters, genderswap some of the male characters, or have lots and lots of gay. Anyway, it's all there in the subtext, right?

 

(And let's all take a minute to be thankful that ship name smushes weren't popular back when TOS was the big fandom. I shudder to imagine what would've been made of Kirk/Spock.)

 

Heh. That's funny. I consider Tamora Pierce the only acceptable option I can think of and read it to my 10 year old!

 

Some of the older books haven't aged well. There's some consent issues, and a lot more controlling behavior than I'm thrilled with. (And yet, they'll always have a special place in my heart.)

 

Edited February 12, 2018 by Tanaqui

[Tanaqui]

If I see   "dark" or  "dubcon" (dubious consent)  it's really easy to say no thank you, goodbye.

 

Or, alternatively, "Yes, more please!" There are some things I hate in real life, but boy do I ever like to read about them. (So long as they're presented in the right way. Consent issues pushed as some sort of romantic ideal are no. No. Noooooooo.)

 

But I don't let the girls use my computer and see what interests me! I don't want to know what they're reading fanfic wise, and I'm sure they feel the same way about my habits.

 

Edited February 12, 2018 by Tanaqui

[poppy]

Meanwhile, Judy Blume herself weighs in: Parents worry too much about what children read

 

She is not wrong!

[Rosie_0801]

Some of the older books haven't aged well. There's some consent issues, and a lot more controlling behavior than I'm thrilled with. (And yet, they'll always have a special place in my heart.)

 

Yup, but since I'm reading them aloud, there's plenty of opportunity for incredulousness. Really? Who does Prince Jonathan think he is? !! There has to be something objectionable to start the conversations.

[Catwoman]

Meanwhile, Judy Blume herself weighs in: Parents worry too much about what children read

 

She is not wrong!

Actually, I don’t necessarily agree with her premise.

 

She seems to be suggesting that if the content of a book is unsuitable, kids will simply tire of it or let it wash over their heads without understanding, so we should basically let them read whatever they want to read.

 

That’s a lovely notion, but there are a lot of books out there that are absolutely unsuitable for children, and there are a lot of children who would read those books and become curious about subject matter that is far too mature for them, rather than choosing to put the book down or letting the content “wash over their heads.â€

 

I’m not suggesting that we censor every last thing our kids read, but I don’t think it’s such a great idea to let kids read almost anything they choose, either, if the content is too mature for them.

[Katy]

Yes, when I said sexual relationships I didn't mean just sexual intercourse.  I wasn't sure how to word it, though, there might be a better way.

 

Do you want to avoid sexual tension?  Or the idea that lust=love?

[Mergath]

Sex is all over our culture... but in things like ads that use sexy imagery to sell products and jokes about sex told everywhere from movies to sitcoms and street corners. I don't feel like there really are a ton of healthy explorations of sex out there for teens to easily find.

 

I don't know that Judy Blume was so great back in the day either... I mean, most of my friends got their steamy stuff from VC Andrews, who was busy normalizing incest, so I'd hardly call that healthy.

 

Someone had to desensitize that generation to incest in preparation for Game of Thrones. ;)  

[Farrar]

No, that's a widely accepted theory. If you're watching ST: TOS and you want to write about relationships, you either have to invent a ton of female characters, genderswap some of the male characters, or have lots and lots of gay. Anyway, it's all there in the subtext, right?

 

(And let's all take a minute to be thankful that ship name smushes weren't popular back when TOS was the big fandom. I shudder to imagine what would've been made of Kirk/Spock.)

 

 

Some of the older books haven't aged well. There's some consent issues, and a lot more controlling behavior than I'm thrilled with. (And yet, they'll always have a special place in my heart.)

 

I feel like they've aged okay overall. They haven't aged well in the specifics of some of the situations in the early books... but the general idea of portraying different young women with different approaches to their own sexuality, but all of them owning it... that's aged well.

[Bluegoat]

Meanwhile, Judy Blume herself weighs in: Parents worry too much about what children read

 

She is not wrong!

 

I don't know.  In a way I think it's true parents worry too much, but I'm not sure I agree that her reason hits the nail on the head.

 

I think she's right that kids will lay aside stuff that they don't get, or won't really understand the implications.  That is something I don't really worry about much.

 

I don't think that is really what most parents worry about though.  It's more material their kids do understand, but the parents don't approve of the message or content in some way.

 

To a certain degree, I think that doesn't give kids enough credit.  I would make an exception for material that could be really disturbing or difficult in terms of imagery - even adults don't always cope with that well and kids can use some help with that.  

 

But in my experience teens have their own minds and come to their own conclusions, despite what a book might say or portray.  They can see relationships that are some way problematic or morally wrong, or stupid, or shallow, and recognize those things don't accord with what they see in reality, or what they think is right, or their moral values.  

 

I thought it was kind of funny that the writer of the article in the OP wrote Sweet Valley High books.  I read those for a while in middle school - until I realized they were vapid - repetitive, predictable, with stereotyped characters.  And I read plenty of other books where I recognized that what the author was saying was something I disagreed with.  

 

Sometimes I was a little older when I revised my ideas about these things.  But - I kind of think that is ok too.

[KathyBC]

The author doesn't find Eleanor and Park arousing? That *is* the problem with porn, soft or hard. Constant exposure makes appropriate material seem too tame, no longer eliciting excitement.
Eleanor and Park, the Divergent series... those are healthy and normal. If the author wants everyone to live gonorrhea-filled lives, she may need to examine her premise of what constitutes healthy teenage sexuality.

[wonderchica]

Yes, when I said sexual relationships I didn't mean just sexual intercourse. I wasn't sure how to word it, though, there might be a better way.

Yeah, I’d just call those romantic relationships, not sexual.

[Ravin]

No one in the history of ever has caught gonorrhea from reading a book, however erotic its content.

 

I seem to recall reading Jean Auel's books as a young teen, and some sci fi with sex incidental in it, like The Misplaced Legion (which had--gasp!--gay male characters who did things with each other, but not as the main narrative). Only Judy Blume I ever read was "Are You There God? It's Me, Margaret." I never read her other stuff. 

 

I tend to think romance is a limited way of looking at the world, it tends to over-idealize certain ways of relating to other people, while invalidating others. Families like mine and relationships like those that have been important in my life tend not to appear. I'd rather see my kids reading something that's more about adventure with the occasional incidental romance as something other than the main narrative, rather than consuming romance for itself. Stories of enduring friendships, stories that talk about the bonds between parents and children, or between siblings, those should be just as important. Because in real life if the only significant relationship in your life with another human being is romantic, that's not really healthy.

 

But then, unhealthy relationships make for drama, which makes for good reading. But there are so many other kinds of drama!

 

Frankly, the most alarming thing I see is messages that girls are Helpless Maidens who are preyed upon by Big Bad Men. I want to empower my daughter, not make her afraid. How best to do that?

Maybe I should hand her some lesbian romance novels?

[Tanaqui]

She seems to be suggesting that if the content of a book is unsuitable, kids will simply tire of it or let it wash over their heads without understanding, so we should basically let them read whatever they want to read.

 

Most studies do suggest that kids will generally not read things that they aren't ready for, exactly like that - they'll put the book down or they'll skim. I've definitely seen that backed up somewhere. (But please don't ask me where - it was at least two computers ago.)

[poppy]

The author doesn't find Eleanor and Park arousing? That *is* the problem with porn, soft or hard. Constant exposure makes appropriate material seem too tame, no longer eliciting excitement.

Eleanor and Park, the Divergent series... those are healthy and normal. If the author wants everyone to live gonorrhea-filled lives, she may need to examine her premise of what constitutes healthy teenage sexuality.

 

There was sex in Divergent? I don't recall any?  Let me google.

 

OK, so I found a bunch of smutty fanfic (hee hee) and then an interview with the author who said "I don't want smut on the page!" And then, it looks like there is one semi-ambiguous sex statement:

 

I forget that he is another person; instead it feels like he is another part of me, just as essential as a heart or an eye or an arm. I pull his shirt up and over his head. I run my hands over the skin I expose like it is my own.

 

I think this the extent of it.  They connect emotionally, then that sentence, then they exchange more supportive words.

 

This reminds of the famous, controversial, racy line in The Scarlet Letter: "Then, all was spoken!"  which readers in the mid 1800s knew to mean "those two did it".

 

I don't have any problem with Divergent as an expression of teen sexuality in dystopia. It's fine. But, man, if that's  as racy as it is ever gonna get, teenaged me would be ......unsatisfied.

[Mergath]

The author doesn't find Eleanor and Park arousing? That *is* the problem with porn, soft or hard. Constant exposure makes appropriate material seem too tame, no longer eliciting excitement.

Eleanor and Park, the Divergent series... those are healthy and normal. If the author wants everyone to live gonorrhea-filled lives, she may need to examine her premise of what constitutes healthy teenage sexuality.

Who gets to decide what constitutes appropriate material?

[KathyBC]

Who gets to decide what constitutes appropriate material?

Yup, when you start talking about teenagers and sex, this becomes the topic.

It's just a little surprising when popular YA books are dissed for not being sexy enough.

In our current, porn-saturated teen culture, why are we nostalgic for a pre-HIV time and place?

[Peaceseeker]

Well now I am wondering about a Tamora Pierce series I just got for my daughter. She generally likes fantasy and adventure novels and it seemed an innocent enough premise (Circle of Magic series) I generally research things fairly well and didn't see any red flags but after this thread I am going to have to read it myself and see!

[AurieD]

Well now I am wondering about a Tamora Pierce series I just got for my daughter. She generally likes fantasy and adventure novels and it seemed an innocent enough premise (Circle of Magic series) I generally research things fairly well and didn't see any red flags but after this thread I am going to have to read it myself and see!

If my memory is correct the Circle of Magic serious is aimed at a younger audience than her more popular Lioness books, I remember nothing in the way of sex or even really romance (maybe a little?) in the Circle of Magic books.

[Farrar]

Well now I am wondering about a Tamora Pierce series I just got for my daughter. She generally likes fantasy and adventure novels and it seemed an innocent enough premise (Circle of Magic series) I generally research things fairly well and didn't see any red flags but after this thread I am going to have to read it myself and see!

 

The Circle of Magic books are completely 100% clean. There's not even much romance in them.

 

The series we're referencing are her Tortall books. There are a bunch of them. Each one follows a different female protagonist who makes different choices about her sexuality and romantic life - one character has a variety of sexual relationships before settling down, another falls madly in love with an older man and waits until they can be together, another decides she's not interested in sex or romance much at all and refuses to be involved with any man until she's established in her career as a knight... and so on.

 

The books that come after the Circle of Magic series - the Circle Opens, do reference sex and romance more, though it's still not the focus and it's not even in all of them really. There's nothing explicit at all. The series after that - the Circle Reforged - absolutely has clearer references to sex and includes a variety of relationships. Again, nothing explicit, but the fact that sex is happening is very clearly stated.

 

I would personally feel fine about a child of mine reading any of Pierce's books. But she does portray that good characters sometimes decide to have sex outside marriage. If you're not comfortable with that, you may not be comfortable with her books.

[eternalsummer]

Yes, I should make the qualification that for me, it is not the graphic description of sex that is problematic (generally speaking) in YA, it's what I consider morally questionable social structures or behaviors that are promoted or at least tacitly approved.  

[Farrar]

The author doesn't find Eleanor and Park arousing? That *is* the problem with porn, soft or hard. Constant exposure makes appropriate material seem too tame, no longer eliciting excitement.

Eleanor and Park, the Divergent series... those are healthy and normal. If the author wants everyone to live gonorrhea-filled lives, she may need to examine her premise of what constitutes healthy teenage sexuality.

 

I guess... I adore everything by Rainbow Rowell... but I can't quite imagine finding Eleanor and Park arousing... because it's romance. Romance is not really physically arousing. I didn't find it arousing as a teenager either. I think that is pretty normal. And it's why everyone turned to things like Flowers in the Attic and Clan of the Cave Bear back in the day. I mean, I know I cannot be the only person in this thread who remembers the roaming nomad dude that the main Cave Bear girl meets who was so well-endowed that he was called upon to perform "first rites" with all the young women he crossed paths with. Oyvay.

[eternalsummer]

I read Clan of the Cave Bear as a kid (maybe 12) - my grandmother gave me all kinds of things too young, imo - and it was and still is disturbing to me.  The one thing I remember from the book(s?) is the situation in which the main character, female, has to basically bend over and be raped by any man who comes across her and gives her some signal; eventually she gets pregnant and bears her cruelest rapist's child (do I have this right?  I was 12.)

 

I don't remember those books as sexy at all, but I might have been so horrified by that one scene that I blanked out anything positive.

[eternalsummer]

Not that that scenario is necessarily unrealistic for prehistoric man - heck, I have no idea.  Makes some sense, I guess.  But I didn't want to read about it in fiction at 12, kwim?  I still don't really want to read about it in fiction, honestly.

[Tanaqui]

I read Clan of the Cave Bear as a kid (maybe 12) - my grandmother gave me all kinds of things too young, imo - and it was and still is disturbing to me.  The one thing I remember from the book(s?) is the situation in which the main character, female, has to basically bend over and be raped by any man who comes across her and gives her some signal; eventually she gets pregnant and bears her cruelest rapist's child (do I have this right?  I was 12.)

 

Pretty much, but there was only one rapist. The rest weren't interested her because she was the wrong species, but he really hated her and he knew she hated it. (And the other women just... didn't really mind most of the time?)

 

And then all the other books she hooks up with her one twu wuv, and it's page after page after page of ikea sex. Seriously, it is soooooooo boring. He's big, she's hot, and in seven pages they'll do it again. Tab a, slot a, again and again and again.

[Tanaqui]

I mean, I know I cannot be the only person in this thread who remembers the roaming nomad dude that the main Cave Bear girl meets who was so well-endowed that he was called upon to perform "first rites" with all the young women he crossed paths with. Oyvay.

 

 

Yes, and it's just so wonderful that Ayla was repeatedly raped as a child because that meant he could introduce her to capital letters Pleasures without hurting her in the process. And page after page after page after freaking page of them having the most tedious sex ever.

 

 

The Circle of Magic books are completely 100% clean. There's not even much romance in them.

 

Yes, this.

 

Also, the first Tortall books, the Alanna quartet, were originally written for adults and then cut down and published for a slightly younger crowd, which explains some of the more unusual writing decisions.

 

But there is literally nothing even slightly questionable about the Winding Circle books. (Well, unless you really hate gays. Sometime in the third trilogy it's made clear that two main characters are actually in a romantic same-sex relationship, and I think another one pops up, but you wouldn't see any of this in the first eight books. The zeitgeist wasn't there for the author to even hint at this when they were first published, and the viewpoint characters were too young to notice or care anyway. Personally, I always want *more* LGBTQ presence in my books, and not just because my kids are both LGBTQ themselves. Like, legit, this is how I decide what books to put on my shelves. I have a little diversity checklist in my head, and if it doesn't adequately hit enough boxes, I don't purchase it.)

 

Edited February 13, 2018 by Tanaqui

[eternalsummer]

I think it is only the Tortall ones that I've read (or tried to read); Alanna is a familiar name.

 

 

Yes, we won't be buying Clan of the Cave Bear.  I mean, most of what I oppose in modern YA lit is basically what I see as sexual revolution liberalism, and I'm a fan of more traditional/socially conservative structures and patterns of male/female interaction.

 

But not quite THAT traditional, jeez.  I found Anne McCaffery to be a weird mix of the two (and I did read them as a kid, gift of the same grandmother).  In this case Judy Bloom was somewhat right, because when I reread them as an adult as a pre-read for DD12, I was pretty amazed at how much sex there was, esp. in the Rowan books.  I must have glossed over most of it.

 

But she had this weird dynamic of sexual liberation - Privacy and having sex without a lot of social regulations and having sex pretty much as soon as it was legally permissible, etc. - combined with a not-quite-rape-but-man-as-dominant vibe that feels strange to reread.  Plus it's kind of unclear whether the dragonriders are willing participants or not - they're clearly not willing in a conscious sense, as they have no real choice as to time or partner - but none of them seem hugely dissatisfied with this, and none ever say for instance, hell no, I quit, get me out of here.  Which seems weird.  Then there's the idea in the Rowan books that you can have regular casual sex with just anyone, but you have to have kids with someone at about your Talent level (which is not intelligence, by the way- intelligence matching makes some sense, but Talent is analogous to being double jointed or something), and ideally have as many kids as possible.

 

It's just a weird combination of sensibilities.  It's too bad, because the world-building and coming-of-age stuff in the Rowan was pretty good.

[Bluegoat]

I think it is only the Tortall ones that I've read (or tried to read); Alanna is a familiar name.

 

 

Yes, we won't be buying Clan of the Cave Bear.  I mean, most of what I oppose in modern YA lit is basically what I see as sexual revolution liberalism, and I'm a fan of more traditional/socially conservative structures and patterns of male/female interaction.

 

But not quite THAT traditional, jeez.  I found Anne McCaffery to be a weird mix of the two (and I did read them as a kid, gift of the same grandmother).  In this case Judy Bloom was somewhat right, because when I reread them as an adult as a pre-read for DD12, I was pretty amazed at how much sex there was, esp. in the Rowan books.  I must have glossed over most of it.

 

But she had this weird dynamic of sexual liberation - Privacy and having sex without a lot of social regulations and having sex pretty much as soon as it was legally permissible, etc. - combined with a not-quite-rape-but-man-as-dominant vibe that feels strange to reread.  Plus it's kind of unclear whether the dragonriders are willing participants or not - they're clearly not willing in a conscious sense, as they have no real choice as to time or partner - but none of them seem hugely dissatisfied with this, and none ever say for instance, hell no, I quit, get me out of here.  Which seems weird.  Then there's the idea in the Rowan books that you can have regular casual sex with just anyone, but you have to have kids with someone at about your Talent level (which is not intelligence, by the way- intelligence matching makes some sense, but Talent is analogous to being double jointed or something), and ideally have as many kids as possible.

 

It's just a weird combination of sensibilities.  It's too bad, because the world-building and coming-of-age stuff in the Rowan was pretty good.

 

 

I'm not sure though why that would mean we expect that kids reading this stuff would think that is supposed to be normal or good or whatever?  I was a huge fantasy and science-fi fan as a young person and it was clear to me that in a lot of these books that author was experimenting with ideas, not necessarily saying that they were all things to emulate.  Even in the Clan of the Cave Bear books, which did kind of make my eyes pop out of my head a bit, it seemed pretty clearly someone trying to imagine how pre-historic societies might have thought about sex in a really different context than we do.  Some of it was obviously kind of idiotic, but some of it was interesting (the ideas, not the sex scenes so much.)  And some of it (the Virgin/Mother thing that Big Penis man was so into) was obviously some kind of weird fantasy fulfillment which was in a way probably more enlightening to me as a teen about how some people's fantasy life works.

[Ravin]

I read Clan of the Cave Bear as a kid (maybe 12) - my grandmother gave me all kinds of things too young, imo - and it was and still is disturbing to me.  The one thing I remember from the book(s?) is the situation in which the main character, female, has to basically bend over and be raped by any man who comes across her and gives her some signal; eventually she gets pregnant and bears her cruelest rapist's child (do I have this right?  I was 12.)

 

I don't remember those books as sexy at all, but I might have been so horrified by that one scene that I blanked out anything positive.

You remember correctly.

 

In the second book, she strikes out on her own and meets a man who is utterly horrified by her experience and teaches her what sex is supposed to be like (i.e., pleasant, and under female control). Then in the third book she gets in a love triangle with this man and another before finally settling on literally the first homo sapien sapien man she ever met...

 

Overall, the way she was treated by the Neadertals who adopted her is portrayed as not a good thing, and the later books show what sex positive relationships/culture can look like. 

[Bluegoat]

You remember correctly.

 

In the second book, she strikes out on her own and meets a man who is utterly horrified by her experience and teaches her what sex is supposed to be like (i.e., pleasant, and under female control). Then in the third book she gets in a love triangle with this man and another before finally settling on literally the first homo sapien sapien man she ever met...

 

Overall, the way she was treated by the Neadertals who adopted her is portrayed as not a good thing, and the later books show what sex positive relationships/culture can look like. 

 

 

Although, really, it was the one fellow who was really just awful.

 

The others didn't get it, because they just didn't think of sex in the same way at all.  It was very utilitarian, in a way.  I thought that was probably a lot more realistic than all the romantic goo-ga in the other books.

[vonfirmath]

I suspect you and my mom have similar perspectives on sex and relationships and women's roles and etc. :)  What's funny to me is that my mom, knowing I'm very socially conservative, keeps sending me these books for DD that promote an entirely different worldview.  It would be like if I sent my mom all Christian romantic fiction, and not modern stuff (does that even exist?  I dunno) - I'm not Christian, but her worldview is probably as separate from a "don't have sex until married, don't have abortions, don't cheat, don't have sequential or concurrent romantic relationships, don't have women inhabiting mens' roles and the reverse, etc." as possible.  She would consider me a little dense if I sent her book recs like that - and yet I get Holly Black and Cassandra Clare and Tamora Pierce, it's so weird.

 

 

That's pretty funny that we have completely opposite views of acceptable YA lit and yet there's something out there for both of us (even if the majority of YA is still unacceptable).

 

I consider myself very  social conservative and I like Tamora Pierce. She does have women in men's roles. But I was racking my brains trying to figure out what might be objectionable in them, thinking maybe the magic? I expect its the women in men's roles though given this list.

[vonfirmath]

The Circle of Magic books are completely 100% clean. There's not even much romance in them.

 

The series we're referencing are her Tortall books. There are a bunch of them. Each one follows a different female protagonist who makes different choices about her sexuality and romantic life - one character has a variety of sexual relationships before settling down, another falls madly in love with an older man and waits until they can be together, another decides she's not interested in sex or romance much at all and refuses to be involved with any man until she's established in her career as a knight... and so on.

 

The books that come after the Circle of Magic series - the Circle Opens, do reference sex and romance more, though it's still not the focus and it's not even in all of them really. There's nothing explicit at all. The series after that - the Circle Reforged - absolutely has clearer references to sex and includes a variety of relationships. Again, nothing explicit, but the fact that sex is happening is very clearly stated.

 

I would personally feel fine about a child of mine reading any of Pierce's books. But she does portray that good characters sometimes decide to have sex outside marriage. If you're not comfortable with that, you may not be comfortable with her books.

 

Okay this may explain why I like Tamora Pierce.

 

My favorite books are the Trickster books (Alanna's daughter) I've also read the Beka books. and the original Alanna series and the Magic circle. SOME of the Circle oPens but I don't find it as interesting when the friends separate. So maybe I missed the books that got deep into romantic stuff?