article about women with autism, EF skills, etc

[ktgrok]

https://theestablishment.co/i-thought-i-was-lazy-the-invisible-day-to-day-struggle-for-autistic-women-6268515175f3

 

What do you think? I identify totally with this woman, and have a son diagnosed on the spectrum that also fits this. My father has some similar traits and my mother has mused he might also be on the spectrum. Could I be?

[klmama]

EF difficulties also can stand alone or correspond with ADHD (with or without hyperactivity) and other issues. I've read the term "shadow syndrome" to describe those with some, but not all, of the symptoms needed for a diagnosis.

 

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[SKL]

I was clued into this possibility by another article some time ago - an article that did a better job of listing the traits I could identify with.  And then I googled and found some even better stuff about women on the ASD spectrum.  But unfortunately I did not save those links.  Here's an annoyingly long checklist I just found : https://everydayaspie.wordpress.com/2016/05/02/females-with-aspergers-syndrome-checklist-by-samantha-craft/

 

Autism definitely runs in my family, but I didn't think it had affected me because it does present differently in females.  I do fit the female ASD traits pretty well.  (And since one of the traits is "makes the conversation about myself," here goes ....)

 

 

While several family members have significant organizational difficulties, I am a person who really enjoys organizing - but it has to be done completely and correctly.  I tend to leave things for a long time and then do a big major cleaning, because I have a hard time doing anything half-assed.  I don't want to start it unless I believe I can follow through and finish it all at once.  So depending on what day you visit me, you might think I'm a slob or a neat nick.  :P

 

What helps me is trying to incorporate the clean-up into each task - cleaning up after myself as I go, etc.  When it was only myself I had to worry about, I would wash my dishes by hand immediately after eating, leave them in the dish drainer, and then use the same dish the next time I ate.  I only use 1 towel and 1 set of sheets (and mostly 1 of everything else) so I have less to "put away."  I also finally caved and hired maids to do the things I wasn't getting to often enough (dusting etc.).  And with kids and other adults around, I have forced myself to accept / "not see" what I can't chase in the moment.

 

Similar comments with emails, filing, etc.  I have been an accountant since I was 25 and I could never bear to "adjust" a difference, I have to balance everything to the penny.  Which means things take longer for me than for some people, and things get put off and pile up and stress me out.

 

And I hate to admit how often I crawl back into bed because it's so difficult and stressful to prioritize all the tasks.  And when I am lying awake, I am ruminating about what isn't done, who's going to be upset, what a bad person I am and how much I hate myself.  Which really helps matters, right?

 

The communication issues come in where I suck at managing people's expectations, at delegating, at having a prompt verbal answer to a question about one of my 1,000 current projects.  I have a pathological dread of talking on the phone.  The prospect of a meeting or conference call will destroy my entire day.  I am not kidding.

 

It also used to be really hard for me to do small talk and I felt horribly awkward in business conferences, networking, etc.  That faded with age as I really don't care who thinks what about me socially any more.  :P

 

So of any of this sounds like you, you might have girl ASD.

 

I am not diagnosed, and have no plans to get diagnosed.  But it helps to know that some of these problems are just my wiring and I can positively focus on finding ways to compensate (thanks for that reminder!).

[PeterPan]

Well several observations. One, I'd be interested to know what her educational background is, because often there's going to be some effect on language. Writing uses a significant amount of EF, but she's cranking out cogent writing. Not saying it can't happen, but just wondering her path. Two, she's very new in the journey. Three, I agree with klmama that she's talking about things that overlap with other issues diagnostically. Four, it's NOT correct to say that clinicians do not look at adaptive living. They absolutely, positively do. It's on forms like the Vineland Adaptive Living Scale, it's used to qualify for services with our county board of disabilities, and it's considered when diagnosing adults. It also sounds like she was working with counselors with little experience with autism. If her presentation online is accurate (stripper, writer, etc.), then we don't know her insurance coverage and family support to know what access and choice she has in care. 

 

There have been some studies where they try to look at scores on the BRIEF (an EF survey for ages I think 5-18) and correlate them to scores on the ADOS to see if they are predictive. The study I read did find a correlation, but when we've discussed this on LC people found studies that said the opposite. 

 

What's challenging in the author's situation is to determine what is actually causing the symptoms and what would actually help. So she's got a blanket term (autism), but they're still not helping her. She's new(ish) in the journey and she's not yet talking about terms like 

 

-structure

-initiation 

-problem solving

-anxiety

-peripheral vision

-categorizing

-mindfulness and self-awareness

-social thinking

-OCD

 

It also sounds like she doesn't have a team helping her that is skilled in Social Thinking and providing EF supports. 

 

So then we get nitty gritty. Lots and lots and lots of people live, to some degree, the way that girl lives. They don't have autism. They have severe EF issues or depression or anxiety or have become clinical hoarders or use their "stuff" to create sensory/calming, but they don't have autism. Some people have physical problems like low thyroid, so you'll see Flylady talking about messy house syndrome and people having to structure a plan while they work on getting well and getting out of the hole. 

 

It's hard, because a lot of moms with kids on the spectrum will go through this question. From things you have said, I just always assumed it was the bio father. Your younger kids (2nd dh) don't seem to be on the spectrum, right? I don't really feel like being on the spectrum or not always communicates online. Like we have people who post where it's very obvious and people where it's less obvious. I think it's particularly tacky when people say oh you can't be on the spectrum because you do X. 

 

If you want to know if you're diagnosable, go through the DSM criteria. EF deficits aren't on the criteria. The way the living stuff presents and the way you problem solve it and the way you do or do not notice how other people feel about it WILL be considered in an eval. It IS part of the profile and the picture. But I think it would be really easy for someone who maybe has some good strong ADHD (pretty common) to identify and go oh yeah that's what my house looks like too, and maybe they don't quite get the nuance of what was going on there.

 

The nuance is in the lack of self-awareness, the social thinking deficits, and the difficulty in problem solving. There's also this idea of gestalt and getting focused on details while they miss the big picture. This happens socially (called mindblindness) but I think also visually. There are studies showing issues with peripheral vision in autism, meaning that literally the people aren't SEEING the issue just a few inches away.

 

Social thinking deficits also cross labels, so you can have them with ADHD. Socialthinking - Articles However if you look at this article, you'll see this girl clearly fits an ESC profile. She can live independently, but she can't problem solve. This is a really typical aspergers profile. But an ADHD person could have an equally messy room or an even MORE messy room, just for different reasons. You don't look at whether the room or house is messy but WHY. 

[PeterPan]

While several family members have significant organizational difficulties, I am a person who really enjoys organizing - but it has to be done completely and correctly.

 

See the author of the article didn't like it when the therapist told her you'll grow, but it's the truth! You won't grow out of it, but you continue to mature and age, to learn coping strategies. Hyper-compensation is pretty common, whether it's ASD or ADHD. It's the rigidity about it that is your bonus possible spectrum feature. :D

 

I like SKL's use of a maid. Very wise.  :thumbup1:  My dh does quite a bit for me. I finally got a roomba so I could do the sweeping myself. 

 

I don't know, we could go into this a while. My dd keeps a typical ADHD messy room. Like it's kind of astonishing frankly. For her, the mess is sensory input, comforting, and her issue is does she have the attention to focus and deal with it. If I say hey clean up the pantry for me, she can. So long as she can attend, she can. If you ask ME to clean out the pantry, I'm going to make funky categories and line everything up. It's really impractical, and actually it's a problem. I need someone to come over and fix what I did, because I totally messed up my pantry.  :smilielol5:  :smilielol5:  :smilielol5:

 

For me, sometimes messes are about problem solving. If my laundry basket is in the wrong place (like 2' over), I don't use it. if I get out of routine, then everything that flowed from that routine gets messed up. And you can say oh well just go get the laundry basket and put it back and use it, kwim? But do I? Gifted IQ, college and grad school. I don't even see the problem. I just end up with piles, because I lost the structure that had helped me make things happen and couldn't figure out why and couldn't problem solve. 

 

Also, note what's really interesting here. SKL is saying she makes her bucks hyperfocusing on details in accounting. (I'm reading into it, I don't know.) I'm an extreme detail person like that. Companies adapting to let employees with autism shine  This article came across my FB feed about companies looking for people on the spectrum to harness their extreme abilities of loyalty and hyperfocusing on details. And to me, it's kind of disgusting, because people focus on this one thing that a lot of people happen to do well (living) and go see, easy, why can't you do this, slam slam. But then when they need something done that really draws on your spectrum strengths, they don't say diversity is beautiful, Thank you Jesus for people who are like that.

 

What I DON'T think is healthy is the author's blowing off of it, making excuses, and not getting help to problem solve. She might not have the financial resources. I'm just saying a diagnosis is a starting place, not where you end up. Grow up, mature, learn your skills, get tools, be honest. This shouldn't be an excuse. It is an excuse, yes, but part of accepting yourself is being honest about what tools you need and getting them.

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Edited December 4, 2017 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

The other thing (and like I said, we could go on forever) is to notice whether the author gets a social pass. People are disgusted, but they're actually helping her. That's a feature that distinguishes ESC thinking in the social communication profiles from some other levels. The other levels before ESC *don't* get a social pass. People just intuitively sense this dc could do better. So while she's getting called ugly things and people are frustrated with her, reality is they're giving her a social pass. 

 

It's just something interesting to consider for yourself. You can look at the Social Communication Profiles article and see where you fit. There's everything from ADHD to ASD levels to ODD, you name it. But instead of using those terms, you're looking at the supports the person really needs. 

 

The other thing you can do with the social thinking profiles is to see if you find your relatives in them. One psych told me the progression will be "weird, weirder, weirdest"... Also, there's some stuff that was cultural if you go back to a certain age. So depending on the age of the people, you need to interpret them in context. Some people have culturally reinforced rigidity or maybe a few genes pushing that way, but it's not all the way to autism. People can be major pains in the butt and not get an autism label. 

Edited December 4, 2017 by PeterPan

[SKL]

 

Also, note what's really interesting here. SKL is saying she makes her bucks hyperfocusing on details in accounting. (I'm reading into it, I don't know.) I'm an extreme detail person like that. Companies adapting to let employees with autism shine  This article came across my FB feed about companies looking for people on the spectrum to harness their extreme abilities of loyalty and hyperfocusing on details. And to me, it's kind of disgusting, because people focus on this one thing that a lot of people happen to do well (living) and go see, easy, why can't you do this, slam slam. But then when they need something done that really draws on your spectrum strengths, they don't say diversity is beautiful, Thank you Jesus for people who are like that.

 

 

I have to say that I've been blessed (not always, but enough) to work with people who could recognize my strengths and work around the weaknesses.  It does take time and patience to understand a person who is so different, for whom "easy" things are hard/impossible while "hard" things are easier.  "Just pick up the phone and call" "I'm getting heart palpitations thinking about it" - not a typical work conversation, LOL.  But there are a lot of things I am really excellent at, often things others could not pull off in the same time frame.  So it's worth getting to know how I tick.  :P

[PeterPan]

Oh my lands, that is SO what we say about me. Easy things are hard and hard are easy. I can take up a new thing (like designing a koi pond) and learn it to a pro level in a short matter of time, but laundry or the kitchen or organizing my pantry, crazy hard.

 

My dd, straight ADHD, is not like that. She's very practical and someone who can make things happen. 

[ktgrok]

My ex definitely has a lot of Aspie traits, and other issues. But there are some traits on my side too. For instance, my father would shop daily so he only had as much as he could carry in order to avoid a bag boy offering to help him out. Hated talking to people he didn't know, although that is better in his golden years oddly. Was known for grunting more than talking when I was a teen, lol. Absent minded professor, for sure, with definite EF issues. 

 

I was a quirky kid in that my mom always worried I didn't get along with people (although I DID have a close group of friends I am still in touch with - all from the gifted program). I preferred books to people and such. I do tend to obsess/perservate on things.....anything from backyard chickens to cloth diapers to whatever...to the point I can't sleep because I can't stop thinking about whatever it is. And I have trouble getting other things done when I'm stuck on a subject. So when I was making christmas stockings a week ago I ate/slept/dreamt/thought about those, and had trouble doing homeschool, cleaning,etc. 

 

I tend to be self centered when I talk, without meaning to be. I'm terrible about asking questions of people or getting them to talk about themselves.I feel badly about it. I am also partially face blind and so panic about recognizing people. However, I have excellent skills with being diplomatic when I try, and have friends that search me out to help them write diplomatic emails, etc. I handled customer service at the animal clinic I worked at and was really good at it. I think because I'm good at mirroring people....their mannerisms, etc. I've always been good at that, and at code switching. 

 

But definite EF issues. HUGE. I was that kid in school that never had a pencil, or paper, or the textbook (sometimes one of those, never all three). I would do the homework but lose it before turning it in. That core group of friends REALLY supported me, thankfully. People kept extra pencils and paper for me in their bags. Shameful, but true. And it isn't that I didn't care, I did. I felt huge stress and worry over it. Didn't matter. 

 

I still lose things, forget things, can't pay bills on time, struggle with cleaning ,remembering dates, etc. I'm hugely behind on my writing. Mostly because I can EITHER exercise, or keep the house clean, or cook meals, or homeschool, or write, or maybe a few of those, but not all of them. Even when there is time, I mentally/emotionally can't. 

 

Oh, and I'm totally unobservant. Like, my husband cut down a tree in our front yard and I did't notice for months. Or he and some friends saw me driving on the highway and he was literally hanging out the car window waving at me to get my attention and I didn't see him, because he wasn't in the area of cars that I had to worry about while driving, if that makes sense. I trip over things in plain sight constantly, walk into walls, etc. 

Edited December 4, 2017 by ktgrok

[ktgrok]

Oh my lands, that is SO what we say about me. Easy things are hard and hard are easy. I can take up a new thing (like designing a koi pond) and learn it to a pro level in a short matter of time, but laundry or the kitchen or organizing my pantry, crazy hard.

 

My dd, straight ADHD, is not like that. She's very practical and someone who can make things happen. 

 

LOL. I went from "maybe I'll try writing a book" to having a novel published by a major publishing house in 6 months. Can't figure out how to keep my floors clean or my laundry done though. 

[PeterPan]

There's a book Bright, Not Broken you could look at. The challenge for you is whether what you're saying includes spectrum-y stuff or is only the part that is typical of high IQ. I mean, let's be honest, your IQ isn't shabby. So if you look at Edison, Trump, these are people with high IQs, high ability to take on projects and go without sleep, and they aren't/weren't on the spectrum. And sometimes when you line up the lists of Aspergers and gifted traits, they're pretty close.

 

To me, you're definitely describing at least gifted with ADHD. Some people are painfully introverted or socially anxious. It's in the communication profiles, go see. I'll bet you find your dad there. There's one that would fit him, from what you described, yes. 

 

I also think there's something natural about people being drawn to people who are similar. Doesn't mean it's to the same degree.

 

What you're describing for yourself is a lot of ADHD. If there's more, dunno. People also get confused, because they forget that spectrum traits ARE human traits. It's not like we're talking you do it and you're a freak or you don't at all. These are things that LOTS of people do, but it's the combination, the degree, and the effect it has on their lives. But do typical people stim or have repetitive behaviors? Yes. Do typical people hyperfocus and get sucked into projects? Yes. Go through the ASD criteria, and you'll find things that anybody might do on a given day. But it's the extreme, the degree, the combination, the frequency, and the effect on their lives. It's their social thinking about it and whether they give a rip to change it. The whole package.

 

I remember SWB saying she figured most professional writers were introverts, that it went with the territory. Actually I think she said all, but who's counting, lol. I can see where someone who is an introvert with ADHD and EF issues might wonder if that crosses over to the spectrum. Do you offend people? Do people regularly walk up to you and go OMG DO YOU REALIZE WHAT YOU JUST DID TO THAT PERSON AND HOW YOU MADE THEM FEEL? I don't know you. Social thinking disabilities are a huge piece in autism. You're not mentioning repetitive behaviors that annoy people or that you wish you could stop. You mention not noticing things or forgetting things. If I'm apart from my kids or dh a week, I forget them entirely. They're just poof, gone from my world. I forget they exist or what they're like. When I see them again, I start all over trying to figure out who they are and how I interact with them. It's really disconcerting.

 

I think the other challenge for you is that you have a young child, someone under a year old, and other young children. Really, with those ages of kids, you've still got the physical strain of pregnancy, the fatigue of not enough sleep, etc. etc. A lot of people at that stage feel that way. I'm NOT saying you wouldn't fit the DSM criteria or shouldn't pursue supports. I'm just saying it's stuff they would distinguish. What has always been that way and what is from being a new mother. What is maybe some post-partum low thyroid. What is because your life is crazy and going in a lot of directions. To me, to feel the way you do would *seem* pretty reasonable? Difficulty with initiating, organizing projects is normal to ADHD. It seems like you would *at least* land there.

 

Where do you see yourself in the Social Communication Profiles? That's your most helpful place to look. Also what is helpful is to write out your symptoms over time. Like how you were as a child, before kids, before the strain of pregnancies and life. For autism diagnosis they want to go back like that. Write it all out and start categorizing and lumping things. You might look back at your childhood and find it's all ADHD stuff. You might look back at your childhood and find you have pages of stimming, sensory seeking, extreme responses to situations, people being frustrated with you, etc., stuff that accummulates and pushes it over from ADHD to ASD. 

 

What supports do you want? Some people go on meds as adults. With a young child like that, your easiest bet might be mindfulness. Costs nothing, requires no meds, and gives you a 30% bump in EF for 10 minutes of effort. Can be done in the shower, while driving, etc. as you get good at it. If you find a psychologist or counselor who does CBT, they could teach you. Starting with a counselor for some strategies might be your best point.

[ktgrok]

You know, the gifted part is a good thing to look at too, I forgot about that. I do have a high IQ....I think they score differently now, but back when it was done it was very high...I remember realizing that the unabomber and myself had the same IQ, lol. 

 

I'll check out the communication profiles!

[PeterPan]

LOL. I went from "maybe I'll try writing a book" to having a novel published by a major publishing house in 6 months. Can't figure out how to keep my floors clean or my laundry done though. 

 

That to me just sounds ADHD. 

 

Even the fact that you can write romance, to me, is telling. It means you have some sense of perspective taking, social thinking, and give a rip about what the characters in the book are thinking. I don't think it's necessary to generalize, but it would be more common for someone on the spectrum to get focused on details in the fiction book, totally missing the point, or prefer non-fiction to fiction. To write dialogue, you're doing constant perspective-taking. You're doing it at a level that is actually publishable and wins prizes, kwim?

 

How do your dogs feel about you? That can be pretty telling. I know a psych who keeps an animal in the office precisely to see how the person interacts with them.

[PeterPan]

You know, the gifted part is a good thing to look at too, I forgot about that. I do have a high IQ....I think they score differently now, but back when it was done it was very high...I remember realizing that the unabomber and myself had the same IQ, lol. 

 

I'll check out the communication profiles!

 

Uh yeah, that would do it, lol. Introvert with high IQ. Maybe or maybe not ADHD. If you get some benefit from caffeine, roll with it. The amount to bump attention is extremely low, and you can google for the charts. Or do the mindfulness. For a mom, mindfulness is a really strong strategy. Personally, I find a body scan to be the simplest method. Doesn't take long, can be done anywhere. There's a LOT of data behind mindfulness being good for EF. If you had the 30% bump from that a couple times a day, and a cup of coffee, you might be good to go. :D

[ktgrok]

Uh yeah, that would do it, lol. Introvert with high IQ. Maybe or maybe not ADHD. If you get some benefit from caffeine, roll with it. The amount to bump attention is extremely low, and you can google for the charts. Or do the mindfulness. For a mom, mindfulness is a really strong strategy. Personally, I find a body scan to be the simplest method. Doesn't take long, can be done anywhere. There's a LOT of data behind mindfulness being good for EF. If you had the 30% bump from that a couple times a day, and a cup of coffee, you might be good to go. :D

 

Drinking some now, lol. It's funny, I didn't drink coffee until I had kids. At kid #2 I got a keurig and needed coffee. At kid 4 I upgraded to an espresso maker, lol. 

 

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[SKL]

This list is also long, but it speaks to me and may speak to you.  :)

 

https://taniaannmarshall.wordpress.com/2013/03/26/moving-towards-a-female-profile-the-unique-characteristics-abilities-and-talents-of-asperwomen-adult-women-with-asperger-syndrome/

[PeterPan]

This list is also long, but it speaks to me and may speak to you.  :)

 

https://taniaannmarshall.wordpress.com/2013/03/26/moving-towards-a-female-profile-the-unique-characteristics-abilities-and-talents-of-asperwomen-adult-women-with-asperger-syndrome/

 

That article is pretty straight and a much better picture (using the whole crayon box) than the article Kt linked. That article hyperfocused on one aspect. 

 

Also the book Pretending to be Normal is a classic.

 

And what's with people making up terms? I just think it's funny, because I have my own opinions on terms (I think you should say "people of spectrum" just like you say "people of color", not people ON the spectrum like it's some rainbow you slide down from or something). Then you've got this aspien thing, and I know others have their terms. Another uses the term "aspergirls." It just cracks me up because it's so typical to say well I don't give a rip about your opinion of my term and this is the term I'll coin because this is the way I think of it.  :lol:

[Lawyer&Mom]

That to me just sounds ADHD.

 

Even the fact that you can write romance, to me, is telling. It means you have some sense of perspective taking, social thinking, and give a rip about what the characters in the book are thinking. I don't think it's necessary to generalize, but it would be more common for someone on the spectrum to get focused on details in the fiction book, totally missing the point, or prefer non-fiction to fiction. To write dialogue, you're doing constant perspective-taking. You're doing it at a level that is actually publishable and wins prizes, kwim?

 

How do your dogs feel about you? That can be pretty telling. I know a psych who keeps an animal in the office precisely to see how the person interacts with them.

I think an autistic woman might be able to write romance. I think we often underestimate the emotional capabilities of autistic women. The analogy I like is that autistic women are closer in their social skills to neurotypical men than they are to autistic men. (And still way behind neurotypical women.) I've observed this in my own life, my dad and I are about equally autistic in terms of EF but he has much more noticeable social deficits.

[ktgrok]

That article is pretty straight and a much better picture (using the whole crayon box) than the article Kt linked. That article hyperfocused on one aspect. 

 

 

 

Yeah...I identified with almost the whole thing, with the exception of the sexual stuff. Crazy. 

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[mellifera33]

This list is also long, but it speaks to me and may speak to you.  :)

 

https://taniaannmarshall.wordpress.com/2013/03/26/moving-towards-a-female-profile-the-unique-characteristics-abilities-and-talents-of-asperwomen-adult-women-with-asperger-syndrome/

 

 

How is this helpful? It's a list of "may a, b, or c" and includes every possibility of how somebody might be? According to this, everyone is autistic.

 

May be introverted or can be extroverted. 

 

May have dropped out of high school. Or may have an advanced degree. Maybe started and went back later. 

 

Interested in things. 

 

Collects things. 

 

 

And then it got to "may have psychic abilities" and I have trouble taking any of it seriously at all. lol

 

 

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[kiana]

I think an autistic woman might be able to write romance. I think we often underestimate the emotional capabilities of autistic women. The analogy I like is that autistic women are closer in their social skills to neurotypical men than they are to autistic men. (And still way behind neurotypical women.) I've observed this in my own life, my dad and I are about equally autistic in terms of EF but he has much more noticeable social deficits.

 

I have had to work so hard to learn to interpret other people's emotional responses that sometimes I end up doing better than people to whom it originally came more naturally (although it is always an effort and never instinctive). 

[BarbecueMom]

I have a parent who fits most of that list. "Child-like nature", naïvety, rigidity in thinking.

 

Examples: Lost house in a foreclosure, was basically homeless until she could buy again. Renting never occurred to her, because she didn't think one was allowed to go from owning a home to renting one, just the other way around. She does well when it's "Do X, then Y." Not "If X, then Y. If not Y, then Z. If sort of Y, try Z first, then maybe X..." Can't jump gears like that. This is what causes problems with holiday traditions being changed.

 

Talks loudly. Has conversations about personal information in public places, does not register that others can hear, or that they would remember/care because it's not their conversation. Why would that matter???

 

Does repetitive singing and dancing when happy, in front of you. Like waving hands in the air and going, "Whooo hooo, Whooo hooo!" because it's the first day of a long weekend or something. Behavior I'd expect of a silly 9yo, not an adult woman.

 

Misreads people (and fictional characters) a LOT.

 

Really random things make her suddenly uncomfortable, and she can't explain it. Like, Shrek makes her really upset for no reason.

 

Certain repetitive motor tics. Drawing loose hairs across the upper lip is one I've noticed (I have a similar tic, but I try to hide it).

 

Mentioned that she was a very late bloomer. Didn't understand innuendo at all until her own kids were teenagers.

 

I don't think she has EF issues, though, as long as what needs to be done is very straightforward. Not obsessively organized, but not "scattered professor" at all. I wonder if that correlates more to intelligence. High IQ = less organized, and vice versa.

 

ETA: A lot of people on this board struggle with narcissistic or otherwise toxic relatives. Those descriptions never fit. I relate a lot more to those struggling to launch ASD young adult children, except I'm sort of the adult child trying to launch the parent.

 

ETA again: There are some issues with proper cleaning, grooming, dressing... but they play out more like sensory issues than EF.

Edited December 4, 2017 by BarbecueMom

[Crimson Wife]

Nothing in that linked article would be indicative of ASD as opposed to ADHD or just general weak EF skills. The author may indeed have ASD but it's not the messy housekeeping or forgetting appointments that would be part of that diagnosis.

 

The difference between my ADHD kid and my ASD one is that while they're both disorganized and miss social cues, the one with ADHD misses them because he wasn't paying attention while the one with ASD misses them because she struggles with "theory of mind".

 

We went to the grocery store one time with the Applied Behavioral Analysis therapist and she played a game where we would all make a statement about our preferences, then my ASD kid had to correctly choose which item would be a good gift for someone. For example, by the floral stand I might say, "I like the red roses." Then youngest DD had to say that a good present for me would be the red roses. She kept saying that a good gift would be HER favorite (the pink roses). She could tell us that I had said that I liked the red ones. But she couldn't make the jump from correctly identifying my preference to understanding that my preference would win out over her preference in gift-giving (the theory of mind struggle).

 

In contrast, my ADHD kid gave the wrong answer because he either didn't pay attention or forgot my preference and so he just guessed randomly. He wasn't struggling with understanding that my preference is difference from his preference like his sister was. He just spaced out.

[luuknam]

I did not read the article (or any articles listed in this thread), but there's this book:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Aspergers-Girls-World-Renowned-Experts-Syndrome/dp/193256540X

 

And then also his generic "Complete Guide" which is not gender-specific. 

 

One of the things is, that if you have a highly intelligent female Aspie who at some point has social-emotional skills as a special interest and reads a zillion books about EQ and about how autistic people think differently and all of that kind of stuff, it shouldn't be that hard to fake it, at least when you have time to process. Giving the correct response to people instantly can be tricky, but a little while later? It's just another system of rules with exceptions etc that can be learned. 

[eternalsummer]

I have executive function deficits; I started a thread here oh, a year or two ago, asking if what I had always perceived as my own laziness and/or lack of consideration could actually be understood as ADHD.  It didn't go very well, to be honest.

 

I don't see what exactly that has to do with Autism.  None of what she said were her difficulties seemed like anything but EF problems, honestly - but maybe I am missing something.

 

 

[mellifera33]

The gal in the first article needs some new friends. Yeesh. Someone confides about a diagnosis and the “friend†denies it and calls her lazy? There’s a saying about that.

[Tanaqui]

Someone confides about a diagnosis and the “friend†denies it and calls her lazy?

 

Some people have a bizarre idea that having a label of a diagnosis is bad, and a label of anything else - even a negative character trait! - is not. So they think it's a good thing to deny disability exists.

 

I don't see what exactly that has to do with Autism.  None of what she said were her difficulties seemed like anything but EF problems, honestly - but maybe I am missing something.

 

She probably didn't feel it was necessary to establish her bona fides when all she's doing is posting about how autism and EF cross-pollinate. I'm sure there are other things going on. They're just not relevant to this essay.

 

The author may indeed have ASD but it's not the messy housekeeping or forgetting appointments that would be part of that diagnosis.

 

Thus illustrating a profound difference in how autistic individuals and non-autistics conceptualize autism. Autistics generally consider that the biggest difficulties and/or differences between us and NTs are sensory issues, executive functioning, depression and/or anxiety. Those of us who also have more unusual conditions which are still more common among autistics than NTs, such as synesthesia, savant skills, or circadian disorders may also consider those central.

 

(As an interesting aside, a great many adult autistics I know thoroughly reject the "we don't have theory of mind" hypothesis, or else - quite scathingly! - point out that NTs often don't apply their much-vaunted skills at putting themselves in others shoes to *us*. When you asked your daughter why she kept saying the pink roses were the better gift, what did she say?)

[eternalsummer]

I must have misread some of the essay, then (which is certainly possible as I was quick-reading); I thought she was trying to suggest that EF difficulties were the essence of why she was diagnosed/self-identified as autistic.  

 

I think the reason people reject disability diagnoses in favor of describing the difficulties as personality traits is because personality traits are seen as something you can overcome and/or that you choose, while disabilities are seen as things that are permanent and insoluble (at least that is my theory).

[MistyMountain]

The essay was not loading good so I did not read it all but it seems like mostly executive functioning things which could be autism but it also could be something else. I seen checklists before and I never really would rate very high for potentially having autism but I could check off quite a lot of the link SKL shared. It says though you might have it if you check 75-80 percent in all areas. I had some areas I scored high but others where I could check some things off but not 75 percent.

[Tanaqui]

I must have misread some of the essay, then (which is certainly possible as I was quick-reading); I thought she was trying to suggest that EF difficulties were the essence of why she was diagnosed/self-identified as autistic.  

 

While it's clear that's why she started looking into this, I think it's pretty unlikely she would've been formally diagnosed autistic without hitting the diagnostic criteria.

 

I think the reason people reject disability diagnoses in favor of describing the difficulties as personality traits is because personality traits are seen as something you can overcome and/or that you choose, while disabilities are seen as things that are permanent and insoluble (at least that is my theory).

 

I agree. There's so much wrong about that perspective, from so many angles, that I don't even know where to start - but a lot of people somehow think that their disabling attitudes are the better ones.

 

[Ausmumof3]

https://theestablishment.co/i-thought-i-was-lazy-the-invisible-day-to-day-struggle-for-autistic-women-6268515175f3

 

What do you think? I identify totally with this woman, and have a son diagnosed on the spectrum that also fits this. My father has some similar traits and my mother has mused he might also be on the spectrum. Could I be?

Fwiw but I can relate to a lot of what you've said. I've found these things to be worst when I'm in the first 12 months post baby.

[JumpyTheFrog]

The gal in the first article needs some new friends. Yeesh. Someone confides about a diagnosis and the “friend†denies it and calls her lazy? There’s a saying about that.

I think she needs a new roommate. Who takes multiple photos of their roommate in their underwear?

[JumpyTheFrog]

I also thought she was using her EF issues as her main evidence of autism. That’s what most of the text and photos focused on. I kept wondering if it had occurred that she might have ADHD and not autism.

[amy g.]

I see some similarities between the author and my adult kid with Autism. I remember wondering if some of her issues could be ADHD, but when she was tested, the psychologist said that her hyper focus and perfectionism looked like ADHD, but were really the opposite. For example, she encountered a problem that she knew the answer to immediately, but it took her almost 5 minutes to bubble it in. She kept almost doing it, but then would read the question again to make sure she wasn’t wrong, then look up again to be sure the answer she wanted to choose was B, over and over. She gets stuck like a scratched record.

 

When she was retested last year, she scored very high in anxiety. When the psychologist pointed it out to her, she said she wouldn’t survive without it. That is how she gets things done!

 

I see the author as similar to how my Dd would be without her anxiety.

 

My Dd isn’t late to events. In fact, she usually gets there 5 hours early just to be sure, but she might still get lost getting to the building she has been to 100 times before.

 

She also has nightmares about going to the grocery store. These things that we do automatically are so challenging for her, but as PPs said, stuff that seems impossible for anyone, she can do easily.

 

She is so lucky to have a roommate who is perfectly compatible with her.

 

My sister called me yesterday because she was at a party with Dd and roommate. Roommate wouldn’t stop gushing to everyone there about how perfect Dd is to live with. She woke up to fresh banana bread, and the very best part of all, Dd never complains no matter how dirty the house gets!

 

I can see how EF could be one aspect of Autism, but it wouldn’t be obvious from the outside for my Dd because her hyper focus and anxiety usually compensate for EF shortcomings.

Edited December 5, 2017 by amy g.

[Scarlett]

That article is pretty straight and a much better picture (using the whole crayon box) than the article Kt linked. That article hyperfocused on one aspect. 

 

Also the book Pretending to be Normal is a classic.

 

And what's with people making up terms? I just think it's funny, because I have my own opinions on terms (I think you should say "people of spectrum" just like you say "people of color", not people ON the spectrum like it's some rainbow you slide down from or something). Then you've got this aspien thing, and I know others have their terms. Another uses the term "aspergirls." It just cracks me up because it's so typical to say well I don't give a rip about your opinion of my term and this is the term I'll coin because this is the way I think of it.  :lol:

 

 

I just wanted to say your posts in this thread have been very informative!  Thank you!

[Scarlett]

The older I get the more I believe my mom was right when she said, 'what is normal?  Everyone has something to deal with and we all just have to figure our 'thing' out in order to get through life.'  I know there are extreme examples but generally I think people just have to figure themselves out.  

 

And we have to acknowledge our limitations.  I mean, I don't care how high your IQ is, a new baby, a new dog, a teenager trying to figure out life, 2 other kids in between and a career in writing...that is a lot on a person's plate (just to use the OPs life as an example).   

Edited December 5, 2017 by Scarlett

[mellifera33]

 

 

We went to the grocery store one time with the Applied Behavioral Analysis therapist and she played a game where we would all make a statement about our preferences, then my ASD kid had to correctly choose which item would be a good gift for someone. For example, by the floral stand I might say, "I like the red roses." Then youngest DD had to say that a good present for me would be the red roses. She kept saying that a good gift would be HER favorite (the pink roses). She could tell us that I had said that I liked the red ones. But she couldn't make the jump from correctly identifying my preference to understanding that my preference would win out over her preference in gift-giving (the theory of mind struggle).

 

 

 

I would not give my mother red roses--in my mind, red roses are a gift from a lover. Fortunately, her favorite are a nice bright peach color. :)

[mellifera33]

Sorry, I keep coming back to this thread because things keep popping into my mind. 

 

The writer of the first article focuses on EF issues. She has been diagnosed with autism, so assuming that it's a good diagnosis, she has the core autism issues. But the EF issues are what bother her the most, what she sees the most, so it's what she writes about. Some of the other things--theory of mind stuff, context, etc. are areas where you don't know what you don't know. An example from my life--I just realized, in the past year, that people act differently at work than they act at home. That people can be genuine while acting different ways. They aren't being phony, just acting appropriately for the context. It kind of blew my mind. :laugh:  This one little thing changed the way I thought about so many things, and was so weird to realize for me, a non-autistic person, so I can't even imagine what kind of insights people who discover they have autism are encountering every day. The writer is probably at the beginning of that journey. 

[Crimson Wife]

 As an interesting aside, a great many adult autistics I know thoroughly reject the "we don't have theory of mind" hypothesis, or else - quite scathingly! - point out that NTs often don't apply their much-vaunted skills at putting themselves in others shoes to *us*. When you asked your daughter why she kept saying the pink roses were the better gift, what did she say?)

 

She'd say something along the lines of: "I like pink. Pink is pretty." Those things may be true, but if my stated preference is for red, she needs to understand that for gift-giving, the social convention is to go with the recipient's preference over the giver's preference.

 

[Crimson Wife]

I would not give my mother red roses--in my mind, red roses are a gift from a lover. Fortunately, her favorite are a nice bright peach color. :)

 

That is a whole level of social nuance WAY above the level we're working with her on. Even a typically developing 8 y.o. probably wouldn't understand that.

 

[Crimson Wife]

I also thought she was using her EF issues as her main evidence of autism. That’s what most of the text and photos focused on. I kept wondering if it had occurred that she might have ADHD and not autism.

 

It's very common to have both. Having ADHD would not preclude her from also having ASD. The difference between straight ADHD and co-morbid ADHD & ASD would be things like inflexibility, difficulties with theory of mind, etc.

[Ausmumof3]

I just wanted to say you probably don't need to have any kind of diagnosis to struggle to balance the workload you have going on.

 

Not saying you don't have anything but I wouldn't assume because you can't handle a puppy new baby, writing career and homeschooling without a few hiccoughs that your executive function skills are terribly bad...

[Tanaqui]

It's very common to have both. Having ADHD would not preclude her from also having ASD.

 

Correct, although it's worth noting that in the DSM IV, it would. Which was always ridiculous, but.... At any rate, I just say it in case other people here are only familiar with the older diagnostic criteria ADHD.