Depression and Suicide among College Students

[kewb]

Having just dealt with this in regards to my oldest it is very real and very terrifying. I do believe the school over reacted a little bit in regards to my child but the reality is he was diagnosed with depression. Was he truly suicidal? I don't know. My child was incredibly angry that the school insisted on calling me and strongly insisted one of us drive down there and take him for an urgent assessment, which resulted in a week if intense therapy and a week of missed classes. As I explained to my child, even if the school over reacted in your case, if you were truly in crisis and they didn't call me and something happened it would have been devastating. He is now taking an antidepressant and it turned out to be a good thing for him.

The point I am making is that the crisis is real. It can affect anyone and I am glad schools are taking it seriously.

Edited November 28, 2017 by kewb

[JanetC]

"Schools taking it seriously" can mean "taking it seriously from an avoiding-liability standpoint."

 

This is a difficult thread for me to chime in on because my family is living it. My daughter's roommate committed suicide last year. She is a sophomore now, and coming back to school has been difficult and exacerbated by all sorts of circumstances.

 

When a college decides to cut a student off from campus services/activities to decrease their own liability, it may be their peers who pick up the slack. When a student is sent home, they are still in contact with their peers over social media.

 

When a school says they are supporting grieving students, that may mean 'an email was sent.' That email may not even have been personalized with the student's name or the name of the child who died.

 

Decisions about whether a student is ill enough to need to leave campus or healthy enough to be able to return may be made by a dean with no particular experience in psychology.

 

There is a close-knit friend group at DD's school that is struggling. They are all very jaded about involving any services provided by the school.

Edited November 28, 2017 by JanetC

[GoodGrief]

"Schools taking it seriously" can mean "taking it seriously from an avoiding-liability standpoint."

 

There is a close-knit friend group at DD's school that is struggling. They are all very jaded about involving any services provided by the school.

 

That's probably a fair assessment. I do believe that liability is generally the primary concern of most schools at this point, understandably so. They can't even deal with the affected, much less having a plan for the survivors.

 

My oldest was at a large university with a teaching hospital and a clinic known to specialize in her particular flavor of mental illness. We found it absolutely impossible to get her into that clinic. They didn't even maintain a waiting list or regular office hours for receiving calls. You had to call in randomly and ask if there were any openings. Seriously. This was past what my very fragile daughter could handle at the time, so I did the calls myself for months, while keeping her in therapy with a provider who was okay, but not able to make progress with her condition.

 

We also had her on the waiting list for a private clinic off campus that did not take our insurance, and would require a significant travel time via bus from campus. Six months after returning to school, she finally got a spot there. It was not ideal as far as costs and logistics, but we have been grateful for the care as it gave her her life back.

 

But it still blows my mind that even being at a school that seemed to have wonderful resources for her care, she was ultimately on her own to figure out how to receive the "help" that the suicidal/mentally ill are encouraged to seek.

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

That's probably a fair assessment. I do believe that liability is generally the primary concern of most schools at this point, understandably so. They can't even deal with the affected, much less having a plan for the survivors.

 

My oldest was at a large university with a teaching hospital and a clinic known to specialize in her particular flavor of mental illness. We found it absolutely impossible to get her into that clinic. They didn't even maintain a waiting list or regular office hours for receiving calls. You had to call in randomly and ask if there were any openings. Seriously. This was past what my very fragile daughter could handle at the time, so I did the calls myself for months, while keeping her in therapy with a provider who was okay, but not able to make progress with her condition.

 

We also had her on the waiting list for a private clinic off campus that did not take our insurance, and would require a significant travel time via bus from campus. Six months after returning to school, she finally got a spot there. It was not ideal as far as costs and logistics, but we have been grateful for the care as it gave her her life back.

 

But it still blows my mind that even being at a school that seemed to have wonderful resources for her care, she was ultimately on her own to figure out how to receive the "help" that the suicidal/mentally ill are encouraged to seek.

 

 

Ugh.

 

It seems self-evident that someone who is having a severe mental health crisis probably isn't going to be in a position to do assertive self-advocacy to get the care they need.

 

Sometimes I wish that there was a Yelp type system for colleges.  It just seems like there should be a better system in place for communicating to the powers that be that they are falling short.

[regentrude]

Btw, I haven't ever had a mental health professional freak out over the suicide thing. ...

In my experience, saying "yes, I've thought about suicide" leads to follow-up questions, about how often you think about it, if you've made plans, what you do when you feel like that (as in, do you have someone to go to or w/e), etc yada yada yada. They just don't seem to be that bothered about it if you say you think about it multiple times a day and have a very effective and easy to implement method in mind, so long as you also say that when you feel like acting on that you go and tell your spouse 

 

 

I think there may be a difference between an independent mental health provider and a college counselor. 

[regentrude]

Just curious: are colleges required by law to report suicide numbers?

[dereksurfs]

Just curious: are colleges required by law to report suicide numbers?

 

Based upon a brief look, it appears that it varies by state and even school in some cases. There seems to be the desire for more reporting though I'm not sure if it would even be a national law vs. state decision. Here is one that some were trying to pass for New Jersey: 

New Jersey lawmaker wants to require colleges to disclose each year how many students attempt take their own lives.

 

From 2014, so things may have changes some:

 

"There is no legal mandate requiring institutions of higher learning to disclose a student death to a campus community. The decision is basically up to the individual college. Additionally, there is no agency that ultimately collects data and reports from universities.

This is largely because of to the criminal nature of the death reports and investigations, said Virginia Powell, an investigator with the Virginia Violent Death Reporting System."  Colleges’ Student-Suicide Reporting Varies

[Nan in Mass]

I have to say that the counseling where my children went to college did a really nice job.  They weren't dealing with suicide or other serious issues, though.  I have no idea whether they were any good serious situations. Small schools.  And we got the ball rolling at orientation and I kept the counselor's phone number in our own phones so I could give it to our children if they called in any sort of crisis.  I never had to.  We either dealt with situations ourselves by hopping in the car or hanging out on the phone, or when we suggested counseling and offered the phone number, they were in good enough shape to say they'd look it up themselves.

 

Nan

[luuknam]

I think there may be a difference between an independent mental health provider and a college counselor. 

 

 

As I mentioned upthread, these were college counselors. I even mentioned names... the head of the counseling dept at A&M Corpus Christi, the head of the counseling dept at UTD, and some experienced counselor at UNT (and a zillion psychiatry residents through UTD/UNT as well). The only thing is that this was 5-13 years ago, but I'm pretty sure I've seen people mention crazy stuff like what one of the PPs mentioned at least 5-ish years ago as well. The only one of those I was not enrolled at was A&M, where I got in as "couples counseling" because DW was enrolled. But, like I said, iirc at both UTD and UNT they tried to get me to see one of the counselors in training (or w/e they're called)... I gave one of them a try, and within one session we mutually agreed to let someone more experienced deal with me (which turned out to be the head of the counseling dept). 

 

So, I don't know... on the one hand, newbies need to practice on someone, but I do think they're probably more likely to freak out about stuff than, say, the head of the counseling dept at a big university, but I have neither personal experience nor stats to back up that guess (other than the one psychiatry intern who freaked and completely twisted my words and everything, but that was unrelated to suicide). One speculation on this: nobody wants to fail to prevent a suicide before their career has even started - by the time that you're the head of the counseling department at a major university, you've got more experience in who is or is not likely to actually make an attempt, and, realistically, one mistake like that isn't going to hurt you and your career as much. 

Edited November 29, 2017 by luuknam

[Bootsie]

Just curious: are colleges required by law to report suicide numbers?

I don't know of any.  I would think it would be somewhat difficult to define.  I know we had a case where a student who was admitted committed suicide the week before classes started; we had a student who went home at spring break last year (half way across the country) and committed suicide.  How would these situations, or a situation of a student who was enrolled but dropped out and then committed suicide be counted?  

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I find it interesting how certain things/themes appear at specific times in our lives. I ran to the pubic library the other day to grab a book I needed to finish and just happened to see a book cover that caught my eye. Not having a lot of time to look through the book I just grabbed it along with the other book and checked out. Later on when I had a chance to really look at it, I was shocked. The book is "What Made Maddy Run. The Secret Struggles and Tragic Death of an All-American Teen" and is about the depression and subsequent suicide of a Division 1 athlete.

 

This book ties together many ideas for me: depression, college athletics, recruiting truths and deceits, and mental health stigma on college campuses.

 

It's a new book, published in August of 2017 and is written by Kate Fagan.

[MysteryJen]

I believe that Sports Illustrated published a long excerpt/ article about “what made Maddy run†a while ago. It was such a sad and frustrating article.

[Corraleno]

I find it interesting how certain things/themes appear at specific times in our lives. I ran to the pubic library the other day to grab a book I needed to finish and just happened to see a book cover that caught my eye. Not having a lot of time to look through the book I just grabbed it along with the other book and checked out. Later on when I had a chance to really look at it, I was shocked. The book is "What Made Maddy Run. The Secret Struggles and Tragic Death of an All-American Teen" and is about the depression and subsequent suicide of a Division 1 athlete.

 

This book ties together many ideas for me: depression, college athletics, recruiting truths and deceits, and mental health stigma on college campuses.

 

It's a new book, published in August of 2017 and is written by Kate Fagan.

 

I believe that Sports Illustrated published a long excerpt/ article about “what made Maddy run†a while ago. It was such a sad and frustrating article.

Yeah, this is the story I referenced in another thread. She felt like she couldn't turn down Penn, because an Ivy admission is the Grail, right? Who could turn down a prize that so many of her fellow students would give anything to win. That story had a direct impact on us, because Penn was one of the schools DS was looking at. The combination of Maddy's story, as well as overhearing a conversation in which several kids tried to talk a fellow athlete out of committing to Penn, explaining that getting in and staying in are vastly different issues, made us look elsewhere. Her story is so heartbreaking.  :crying:

[Granny_Weatherwax]

 

 

Yeah, this is the story I referenced in another thread. She felt like she couldn't turn down Penn, because an Ivy admission is the Grail, right? Who could turn down a prize that so many of her fellow students would give anything to win. That story had a direct impact on us, because Penn was one of the schools DS was looking at. The combination of Maddy's story, as well as overhearing a conversation in which several kids tried to talk a fellow athlete out of committing to Penn, explaining that getting in and staying in are vastly different issues, made us look elsewhere. Her story is so heartbreaking.  :crying:

What I find interesting is that her older sister had enrolled in Penn [state] only to transfer due to depression. The story is indeed heartbreaking.

 

Edited: I thought both girls attended the same school. The sister went to Penn State and Maddy went to UPenn.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Scoutermom

[dereksurfs]

I think parent awareness is very critical especially when we look at the numbers. Statistically, its not out of the realm of possibility that this could strike any one of our kids. This is very pervasive, especially at this age. And so I think we need to prepare ourselves. What would we do? How would we respond? Its really hard to know. Though its still good to acknowledge that this can occur.

 

It also helps to attempt to understand what they are thinking and going through to attempt to encourage them during these times. Even if not clinically depressed, college kids will struggle, get discouraged and confused at times.  In referring back to the original article, there is a discussion around the societal shift school counselors are seeing.

 

William Alexander, director of Penn’s counseling and psychological services, has watched a shift in how some young adults cope with challenges. “A small setback used to mean disappointment, or having that feeling of needing to try harder next time,†he said. Now? “For some students, a mistake has incredible meaning.â€

 

Meeta Kumar, who has been counseling at Penn for 16 years, has noticed the same change. Getting a B can cause some students to fall apart, she said. “What you and I would call disappointments in life, to them feel like big failures.â€

 

This is the age, possibly more than any other, when smaller things can seem to get blown out of proportion like a poor grade, a break up or feeling socially awkward. Kids are figuring out their identities as adults and it can be a very stressful time.

 

Edited December 2, 2017 by dereksurfs

[Arcadia]

William Alexander, director of Penn’s counseling and psychological services, has watched a shift in how some young adults cope with challenges. “A small setback used to mean disappointment, or having that feeling of needing to try harder next time,†he said. Now? “For some students, a mistake has incredible meaning.â€

 

Meeta Kumar, who has been counseling at Penn for 16 years, has noticed the same change. Getting a B can cause some students to fall apart, she said. “What you and I would call disappointments in life, to them feel like big failures.â€

Kids are given less chance to fail in K-12th than when I was a kid. Getting their first B in college would be extremely demoralizing and worse if far from home (emotional support). I do think colleges who do not use the freshmen’s first quarter/semester’s grades for calculating undergrad GPA is doing a good thing.

 

“ “We are trying to curb an increasing trend we are seeing in students around perfectionism and concerns about grades, outcomes and achievement," the school's head of counselling Bridget McPherson said.

"We want our students to recognise that failure, and making mistakes, is a really crucial part of learning."

...

For a long time, there's been a perception that failure damages people, according to Professor Stephen Dinham​, Associate Dean of the University of Melbourne' Graduate School of Education.

"We have bred a generation where it's not OK to get critical feedback. It's not OK to tell someone that they haven't reached a certain standard," he said.

"We tend to get feedback on effort rather than achievement."

The thinking was that positive feedback would boost students' self-esteem, leading to improvements in their learning.

"We know that's not the case," Professor Dinham said.

"When you give kids a lot of positive reinforcement and no negative feedback ... it tends to confuse them and gives them a false sense of how they are going. It sets up a situation where they get into the big world and suddenly they are not as good as they think they are."

If handled properly, failure gives students feedback that helps them reach the required standard, he said.†https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/victoria/the-school-teaching-students-that-its-ok-to-fail-20170827-gy4zo1.html

 

ETA:

I have seen classmates gone through depression in my middle school’s gifted program. From being the tippy top in their elementary school to being one of the big fish in a big pond. Some kids love the gifted program because they finally have peers, some feel deflated. In my classmates case it wasn’t their parents but their elementary schools that created the illusion.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Arcadia

[Bootsie]

I heard a college president say, "It's been the parents' job to teach their child that he is the most special, important, smartest person for 18 years; it's our job to tell him that isn't the case."  â€‹â€‹I think there is some truth to what he said which makes the university's job a difficult one.

[dereksurfs]

Kids are given less chance to fail in K-12th than when I was a kid. Getting their first B in college would be extremely demoralizing and worse if far from home (emotional support). I do think colleges who do not use the freshmen’s first quarter/semester’s grades for calculating undergrad GPA is doing a good thing.

 

Can you imagine a 'single' B or even worse C grade changing the course of a young person's life? Do you think it could happen?

 

Can you imagine feeling like a complete and utter failure with waaaay too much introspection because of it? How about questioning your actually identity? Who you thought you were vs. who you just discovered you are, apparently! As ridiculous and dramatic as this sounds, its what some kids feel and think. And its just one grade. Add to that weeder classes intended to thin the heard of many of these bright eyed, naive young folks and its a rough road and time in their lives.

[luuknam]

So, on the topic of what to do about this...

 

I heard a college president say, "It's been the parents' job to teach their child that he is the most special, important, smartest person for 18 years; it's our job to tell him that isn't the case."  â€‹â€‹I think there is some truth to what he said which makes the university's job a difficult one.

 

 

I disagree with what that college president said. It's not my job to teach my child he's the most special, important, smartest. It's my job to prepare my kids for adulthood, and telling them fairytales as if they're real life is not part of that. You can love your kids and let them know that you love them and that they're special and important *to you* without telling them that they're the most special and important person. 

[frogger]

So, on the topic of what to do about this...

 

 

 

I disagree with what that college president said. It's not my job to teach my child he's the most special, important, smartest. It's my job to prepare my kids for adulthood, and telling them fairytales as if they're real life is not part of that. You can love your kids and let them know that you love them and that they're special and important *to you* without telling them that they're the most special and important person.

 

Yes, yes, yes

 

I don't understand the concept of anyone thinking they aren't going to fail sometime in their life. I flat out tell my kids they are going to fail at something (buy the wrong house, or make the wrong investment, fail a class, whatever) there are so many opportunities for failing! But that doesn't mean you failed "life".

Failure is a great learning opportunity and it certainly won't change their standing in my family. They will still be loved and we can help brush the dust off before the jump back into life. We read stories of people who fail and fail before they suceed. That is part of life.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I've always considered myself the rain on my child's parade. I am a firm believer in what Marva Collins wrote: "The castle leaks."   You are not perfect. The world is not perfect. Life requires hard work.

 

Obviously this is no guarantee of anything. My point is that I have never felt it was my job to say the above things to my child. My worry is more the opposite: I want to be the rain -- not a tsunami...  

[mumto2]

I've always considered myself the rain on my child's parade. I am a firm believer in what Marva Collins wrote: "The castle leaks." You are not perfect. The world is not perfect. Life requires hard work.

 

Obviously this is no guarantee of anything. My point is that I have never felt it was my job to say the above things to my child. My worry is more the opposite: I want to be the rain -- not a tsunami...

I love the rain concept because that has been one of my roles in my children's lives so far. Because we home educated someone had to point out things weren't perfect and that person was me. They had to be prepared for the future beyond my school. Life does not always tell you that you are wonderful and bad things happen.

 

 

I am going to be honest and say I really want to stop being the rain. I don't want to be the rain for life. It's actually the part of home ed that I regret. I would love to just cheer (how easy) but suspect I will always sprinkle a bit. ;)

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I love the rain concept because that has been one of my roles in my children's lives so far. Because we home educated someone had to point out things weren't perfect and that person was me. They had to be prepared for the future beyond my school. Life does not always tell you that you are wonderful and bad things happen.

 

 

I am going to be honest and say I really want to stop being the rain. I don't want to be the rain for life. It's actually the part of home ed that I regret. I would love to just cheer (how easy) but suspect I will always sprinkle a bit. ;)

 

I can soooo relate to this. My teen and I actually talked about it recently. We both expressed how necessary it was, but also how difficult. If only life were all sunshine and rainbows...

 

There are many times my teen curses the rain and later begrudgingly thanks me (in that special way teens have  ;) ) for teaching her to always carry an umbrella. My deepest hope is that the umbrella stands up to the tests of time...

[Mabelen]

I love the rain concept because that has been one of my roles in my children's lives so far. Because we home educated someone had to point out things weren't perfect and that person was me. They had to be prepared for the future beyond my school. Life does not always tell you that you are wonderful and bad things happen.

 

 

I am going to be honest and say I really want to stop being the rain. I don't want to be the rain for life. It's actually the part of home ed that I regret. I would love to just cheer (how easy) but suspect I will always sprinkle a bit. ;)

Yes, even if you don't homeschool you will still have to rain on your child when it comes to academics and school work. If your kid went to school, he or she would complain about certain things. Sometimes you do get to be the cheerleader, some other time you have to sympathize and love but be the rain that sides with their teacher or school. I understand that with homeschooling it is the degree that is different. That part must be very difficult. Hugs.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Yes, even if you don't homeschool you will still have to rain on your child when it comes to academics and school work. If your kid went to school, he or she would complain about certain things. Sometimes you do get to be the cheerleader, some other time you have to sympathize and love but be the rain that sides with their teacher or school. I understand that with homeschooling it is the degree that is different. That part must be very difficult. Hugs.

 

On the other hand...some schools praise, praise, praise and shine, shine, shine. The parent must then counteract all that brightness with stormy clouds and drizzle...

 

(I'm referring to high schools that give almost all A's and focus on a narrow vision of self-esteem above all else. Obviously not all schools are like this.)

Edited December 2, 2017 by Woodland Mist Academy

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I don't think it's that clear cut. In my experience with public high schools there are at least two distinct subpopulations. Those who are the glittering stars and who are always on the top, either with academics, sports, clubs, committees, or whatever else they choose to participate in. These are the ones who are being told they will rule the world and can do no wrong. These are the kids who receive all of the honors and awards and whose names are recognized throughout the school and town. Then there are those who no matter how hard they try will not be in that group. They may have great/good GPAs, be decent athletes, and join clubs. They are not team captains or leaders but ordinary kids. These are the kids who are told that no matter what they do they will not be good enough because there is someone else who is better. This distinction may be overt or covert but it exists.

 

Yet, both groups are part of the same generation. They feel the same pressures to succeed, to be the best. They have the same pressures to be on social media and to present a life of fun, good times, and satisfaction.

 

They are similar but different and should we not be cognizant of those differences when having discussions about mental health? 

[Mabelen]

I don't think it's that clear cut. In my experience with public high schools there are at least two distinct subpopulations. Those who are the glittering stars and who are always on the top, either with academics, sports, clubs, committees, or whatever else they choose to participate in. These are the ones who are being told they will rule the world and can do no wrong. These are the kids who receive all of the honors and awards and whose names are recognized throughout the school and town. Then there are those who no matter how hard they try will not be in that group. They may have great/good GPAs, be decent athletes, and join clubs. They are not team captains or leaders but ordinary kids. These are the kids who are told that no matter what they do they will not be good enough because there is someone else who is better. This distinction may be overt or covert but it exists.

 

Yet, both groups are part of the same generation. They feel the same pressures to succeed, to be the best. They have the same pressures to be on social media and to present a life of fun, good times, and satisfaction.

 

They are similar but different and should we not be cognizant of those differences when having discussions about mental health?

Of course, that is why you sometimes get to be the cheerleader and sometimes the rain when they come home from school. At a large public school there are many different sub groups in terms of academics, not just those two, not to mention culture, socioeconomic or interest driven groups. As a parent, you have to be aware of how your child fits in all of that.

[dereksurfs]

Its not just the students, its the schools. That B is likely to mean giving hope of med school.  They can't regroup fast enough to remain competitive.

 

And the other part is the try harder is tough.  I know my  jaw dropped when the kid called home for freshman chem.  He had bombed the first test...lots of questions were giveaways assuming the students knew content from AP or honors chem (which his high school doesn't offer and his college course didn't cover)...it was mathematically impossible for dc to earn anything more than a C- at that point, and that required perfection on the remaining two tests and the final.  With it being a 5 credit, controlled enrollment course (cannot retake until summer if failed, cannot retake in fall or spring)  the consequence of dropping was another two semesters of college due to it being a pre-req for many other courses.  The grading scheme didn't allow As on the remaining exams to show that the student had recovered and learned the material....that had to wait until the grades for subsequent Chem courses were posted.  And of course exam 2 was after drop with nothing but financial consequence date. 

 

Yes, absolutely. That's the feeling of cutthroat which was discussed in another thread. Its not just 'in his mind.' Rather, its the reality of some schools and their weeder courses designed to make kids struggle who would not typically do so. You brought flashbacks to my own experience in my first college chemistry course. I was taking that along with calculus, physics and other tough classes my freshman year. The assumption was definitely prior knowledge and those without it were left in the dust. That C I got was devastating and the teacher could care less. It was truly like survival of the fittest and I apparently didn't come as prepared as others even though those prerequisites were not mentioned in the course description. I've seen it in other college courses which actually brought students to tears and basically meant the ending of a dream they had to become a medical professional. If some cases there was no recovery possible given the program, their other courses, etc... They were effectively 'weeded out.'

 

Whether its right/wrong is irrelevant especially when you are the student. Its simply the way that it is in some cases. And yes, that can be devastating.

Edited December 2, 2017 by dereksurfs

[Frances]

Its not just the students, its the schools. That B is likely to mean giving up hope of med school. They can't regroup fast enough to remain competitive.

 

And the other part is the try harder is tough. I know my jaw dropped when the kid called home for freshman chem. He had bombed the first test...lots of questions were giveaways assuming the students knew content from AP or honors chem (which his high school doesn't offer and his college course didn't cover)...it was mathematically impossible for dc to earn anything more than a C- at that point, and that required perfection on the remaining two tests and the final. With it being a 5 credit, controlled enrollment course (cannot retake until summer if failed, cannot retake in fall or spring) the consequence of dropping was another two semesters of college due to it being a pre-req for many other courses. The grading scheme didn't allow As on the remaining exams to show that the student had recovered and learned the material....that had to wait until the grades for subsequent Chem courses were posted. And of course exam 2 was after drop with nothing but financial consequence date.

It has not been my experience at all that one B, especially in freshman year, means giving up hope of medical school. I can certainly see where a student might think that and freak out, but my husband advised premeds for many years and was accepted to medical school himself.

[JanetC]

What annoyed me with my son's situation is that there is no place other than prep school for smart kids who have been affected by disparate impact or zip code dumb down. The knowledge is acquired in honors/AP, not in CC. So starting in CC and transferring wouldn't have done a thing for him.

 

I'm not sure I believe there is some secret Chemistry knowledge taught in AP and nowhere else. The community college by me offers all kinds of Chemistry - a "light" concepts course for liberal arts majors who just want a science credit, a pre-nursing track, a pre-STEM track, and a pre-preengineering-chemistry course for those who have a weak hgh school background. There is also abundant help and tutoring for freshman level classes of all kinds.

 

There was probably also tutoring/help available at your son's school. The problem is often that kids don't seek out that help because they don't know what they don't know until that first exam.

[luuknam]

Last time I looked, there were also some Chem MOOCs - not sure how well they were run, but with most MOOCs I've done, there were some knowledgable students who were quite helpful in the forums. 

Edited December 2, 2017 by luuknam

[Frances]

I went to a public school engineering college which had weeder courses, but bombing the first test was not penalized as heavily. That would not encourage students to stick it out and meet the challenge of improving their study habits. I did bag a B as I made up my gap. My profs were pretty good at encouraging people to use their brains and put the work in. Some were slick...they'd give a first test straight off a file so no one would drop, then lead them to study with the shock of test number 2's results, and make them show on the final that they had mastered the material for both 1 and 2 in order to bag an A. So, learning planned such that students from rural schools had a chance to gap fill, and students from wealthy high schools stopped skating. Still, 1 in 3 was gone...no ability to resist the lure of socializing enough to get the work done.

 

 

What annoyed me with my son's situation is that there is no place other than prep school for smart kids who have been affected by disparate impact or zip code dumb down. The knowledge is acquired in honors/AP, not in CC. So starting in CC and transferring wouldn't have done a thing for him. He didn't have the time in high school to self teach all the missing material. The only strategy available was the one of taking the least credits possible at the U during the gap fill semesters and hitting all tutoring hours. Or attending a regional U with no pre-meds....but that would not have challenged him and woken him up intellectually. These days though, its easier as quality on line courses are available for high schoolers who don't have the stats for JHU-CTY.

No premeds at a regional U? That must be location specific, as in my state, there are premeds at all of the state schools here. When my husband was doing a career change, he needed some additional science courses, even though he had been previously admitted to med school and had a PhD. He took classes at several different schools, just depending on what worked best for his schedule. He was very impressed by the A&P class at our local regional U. It was way beyond the level taught at his much, much higher ranked LAC and used cadavers. His prof for the class said they regularly had students go on to grad school in all of the medical fields. Edited December 2, 2017 by Frances

[JanetC]

Ah, no. The high schools have hidden tracking. All sections do not learn the same material.

Its assumed that college prep students are in sections that have a certain minimum level covered, but due to $$$$ and equity, that is no longer the case.

I'm not responding to the idea that some high schools are not preparing students well for college level science classes. I was responding to your assertion that community colleges cannot help someone who has weak high school preparation. Did I misunderstand the section I quoted?

[creekland]

I'm not responding to the idea that some high schools are not preparing students well for college level science classes. I was responding to your assertion that community colleges cannot help someone who has weak high school preparation. Did I misunderstand the section I quoted?

 

It really seems to depend upon the community college TBH - and even within a CC, the professor.

 

My kids have done DE at our local CC.  Courses there are only college prep for lower level colleges for the most part (thinking 2 & 2).  One could use Chem to replace a high school course, but I wouldn't want to count it as a college course if one needed deeper Chem knowledge as required by some majors and higher level schools.

 

English 101 classes were quite iffy too IME.  They could be on par with a high school level course from a typical high school - like the one I work at.  Students going from there to an upper level college where they should have a deeper foundation would feel a bit behind.

[Bootsie]

So, on the topic of what to do about this...

 

 

 

I disagree with what that college president said. It's not my job to teach my child he's the most special, important, smartest. It's my job to prepare my kids for adulthood, and telling them fairytales as if they're real life is not part of that. You can love your kids and let them know that you love them and that they're special and important *to you* without telling them that they're the most special and important person. 

I don't think it is so much that he personally believes that that is the parents' job--I think he was commenting more on what the university is experiencing of kids coming in that have been constantly told they are great, smart, special, etc. to boost their self-esteem