s/o people justifying breaking laws (illegal fireworks)

[creekland]

I have to say, I've always thought the Hive was huge, but seeing how many of you say you obey the speed limit... can't say I've come across you in my travels. ;)

 

The typical slow traveler is doing at least 5 mph over the speed limit on regular roads and between 5 and 10 over on highways.  That's the range I'm in most places and we pass very, very few cars - usually trucks, elderly, or new drivers.  When we get one of those speed limit followers, esp on highways, it can create quite the backup and worse traffic due to the folks who feel the need to jockey between lanes impatient to pass.  When everyone is going along at that "normal" pace, traffic moves far more easily.

[Sneezyone]

Ugh. Some laws, particularly these which are safety related, really should be followed. When DH was junior enlisted, we lived in base housing. Fireworks are prohibited there. We went on vacation for the 4th and left one car in the garage and another in the driveway. Our neighbours set off fireworks that landed on our two year old car, burned the paint in at least two spots, and then claimed ignorance. We didn't find out until we got back and were informed by neighbors. I've never been so pissed. You want to go off to a non-residential area and light-em where it's allowed...GREAT. That should not be happening in densely occupied residential neighborhoods.

[scoutingmom]

But why would you be driving at 60mph in an overtaking lane? Don't you move into the driving lane and allow others to pass, breaking the speed limit if they like? That's certainly courtesy and it's the law in the UK (when reading below, remember that the left-hand lane in the UK is the driving lane and the right hand lanes are the overtaking lanes):

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/motorways-253-to-273

And the autobahn was engineered for high speeds.

[scoutingmom]

Here is one example. I live in a neighborhood that has a lot of kids out biking, walking, roller blading, etc. We are rural and have no sidewalks. Therefore, the cars must share the road with the kids.

 

The other rural neighborhoods in my area have a speed limit of 25 mph on their roads. The speed limit for the roads in my neighborhood is 35 mph, which many of us believe is too high under the circumstances. A group of neighbors petitioned the county to lower the speed limit to 25 mph, but the county officials could not lower the speed limit because one of the roads in our neighborhood connects two parallel roads that are considered state roads. Had these roads not been state roads, the speed limit would have been reduced to 25 mph.

 

Most people who travel through are neighborhood do not follow the law. Instead, they go 25 mph on our streets because they recognize that a speed limit of 35 is dangerous and silly.

Going under a speed limit is foloowing the law... speed limits are maximums.

 

(Exception... I have seen a few roads that also have a minimum speed.)

 

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[StephanieZ]

Guess I am a rule follower. I have occasionally soed, but it was always inadvertently. I have followed the rest of those rules.

 

Wow, I don't actually know anyone who tracks personal purchases on the internet to pay the appropriate sales/use tax.

 

I track those untaxed purchases at our business and do pay all appropriate taxes at work, as I don't like to cut any corners at a business.... records are easy to track, and thus the risks are higher as are the chances of an audit . . . Besides, I pay our office manager to keep all those records straight, so I don't have to do it. So, we do it. 

 

But, wow, you track the $20 doodads you buy off eBay or other sites that don't collect sales tax. I'm impressed. Way to go! What a PITA that must be! Do you track them all on a spreadsheet or what? Or maybe you aren't a big online shopper? 

 

Me, nope, no way. Bring on the auditors to find my $25 doodads, etc. Not worth my bother, IMHO. If it's worth somebody's time to figure out which doodads did and didn't collect sales tax upon sale, and how much I owe, then I'll pay . . . until then, forget it. 

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

Here is one example. I live in a neighborhood that has a lot of kids out biking, walking, roller blading, etc. We are rural and have no sidewalks. Therefore, the cars must share the road with the kids.

 

The other rural neighborhoods in my area have a speed limit of 25 mph on their roads. The speed limit for the roads in my neighborhood is 35 mph, which many of us believe is too high under the circumstances. A group of neighbors petitioned the county to lower the speed limit to 25 mph, but the county officials could not lower the speed limit because one of the roads in our neighborhood connects two parallel roads that are considered state roads. Had these roads not been state roads, the speed limit would have been reduced to 25 mph.

 

Most people who travel through are neighborhood do not follow the law. Instead, they go 25 mph on our streets because they recognize that a speed limit of 35 is dangerous and silly.

I most places it is not against the law to go below the speed limit. So no one is breaking the law.

 

*interstate, freeway or highway roads often do have a min.

[scoutingmom]

Wow, I don't actually know anyone who tracks personal purchases on the internet to pay the appropriate sales/use tax.

 

I track those untaxed purchases at our business and do pay all appropriate taxes at work, as I don't like to cut any corners at a business.... records are easy to track, and thus the risks are higher as are the chances of an audit . . . Besides, I pay our office manager to keep all those records straight, so I don't have to do it. So, we do it.

 

But, wow, you track the $20 doodads you buy off eBay or other sites that don't collect sales tax. I'm impressed. Way to go! What a PITA that must be! Do you track them all on a spreadsheet or what? Or maybe you aren't a big online shopper?

 

Me, nope, no way. Bring on the auditors to find my $25 doodads, etc. Not worth my bother, IMHO. If it's worth somebody's time to figure out which doodads did and didn't collect sales tax upon sale, and how much I owe, then I'll pay . . . until then, forget it.

No, I'm not a huge online shopper, but honestly not that hard.

 

I also claim the actual value of items I bring back over the border and pay any customs duty owed. The couple of bucks it cost was worth it to me.

 

I also don't cheat on my taxes.

 

I would break a morally reprehensible law (like the saving people from the Nazi's, or the Mormon execution order).

 

I would work legally to change other laws that I disagree with (while following them).

 

I may inadvertently break some obscure and obsolete law I never heard of.... there are, after all thousands of thousands of laws in effect at any location at any time.

 

Honesty and Integrety is one of my core values in my life. I will not sacrifice that to save a couple of bucks or save 5 minutes of time.... I am just not that cheap.

Edited July 1, 2017 by scoutingmom

[frogger]

 

That's where critical thinking skills come in. 

 

 

But most Americans don't have critical thinking skills which puts me in a quandary because most lawmakers don't either. 

 

We have major issues with people speeding through our neighborhood because people use it for a short cut and it is straight. There are people backing out of driveways, little kids on the road, etc. It would be easier and cheaper  to allow the road to become filled with potholes, put in a bunch of stop signs, or something of that nature rather than constantly station a cop to give speeding tickets. It is the people who don't live here that are the worst culprits. 

 

Sorry, now I see someone else has covered this problem. 

 

 

 

I find it very interesting that people are so into fireworks that they could care less about others. The idea that someone has to add an expensive sprinkler to protect themselves from your fireworks is a strangely selfish thing to think over something as silly as fireworks. There are problems like how far do people go for allergies that I can see as costly especially since there can be more than one type of allergy in a classroom but that you are willing to incur big costs on your neighbor for a boom boom is ridiculous. If it hits a neighbors child and blinds them I suppose well it's their own problem too? I can't say I can understand this reasoning at all. 

 

 

I have set off personal fireworks but it was in a rural area on my own property with the nearest property being close to 20 acres away. It wasn't much because they are pretty expensive and it was rainy. It also is a pain to clean up. How many people pick up all the trash from their fireworks? Ugh. 

Edited July 1, 2017 by frogger

[eternalsummer]

No, I'm not a huge online shopper, but honestly not that hard.

 

I also claim the actual value of items I bring back over the border and pay any customs duty owed. The couple of bucks it cost was worth it to me.

 

I also don't cheat on my taxes.

 

I would break a morally reprehensible law (like the saving people from the Nazi's, or the Mormon execution order).

 

I would work legally to change other laws that I disagree with (while following them).

 

I may inadvertently break some obscure and obsolete law I never heard of.... there are, after all thousands of thousands of laws in effect at any location at any time.

 

Honesty and Integrety is one of my core values in my life. I will not sacrifice that to save a couple of bucks or save 5 minutes of time.... I am just not that cheap.

 

What do you mean by obselete?  

[frogger]

Oh I didn't answer OP's question. I do not break the fireworks law but I do tell my children that I believe they are allowed to break legislation. To me Biblical or Social or common law has more bearing than random legislation. This means I will follow legislation unless it goes against my morals. Fireworks wouldn't qualify under that. If I needed to get past a semi- I'd break the speed limit. It's more about safety as you mentioned earlier. If I was required to do something against my neighbor that I thought was wrong I would not. For example, if a hard working, caring family next door happened to be illegal you can bet your boots I wouldn't do anything against them or turn them in. Right now that is not an issue but really there aren't a lot of laws I'm worried about (currently)  in the USA. 

 

This is what bother's me about the whole problem with "illegals". Pretty much everyone who says just being here is illegal and therefore they are all awful lawbreakers has broken a law for a heck of a lot less of a good reason. 

[StephanieZ]

No, I'm not a huge online shopper, but honestly not that hard.

 

I also claim the actual value of items I bring back over the border and pay any customs duty owed. The couple of bucks it cost was worth it to me.

 

I also don't cheat on my taxes.

 

I would break a morally reprehensible law (like the saving people from the Nazi's, or the Mormon execution order).

 

I would work legally to change other laws that I disagree with (while following them).

 

I may inadvertently break some obscure and obsolete law I never heard of.... there are, after all thousands of thousands of laws in effect at any location at any time.

 

Honesty and Integrety is one of my core values in my life. I will not sacrifice that to save a couple of bucks or save 5 minutes of time.... I am just not that cheap.

 

So, I see you equate following rules and laws with honesty and integrity. 

 

I can see why, in that context, following rules and laws would be so important to you. I value those traits, too.

 

I don't make that correlation, at all. 

 

I never promised anybody I'd follow all the laws. I don't intend to promise that to anybody, lol. 

 

Some of the greatest, most honest people with lots of integrity are rule-breakers. 

 

I, too, value honesty and integrity. I just don't see that following laws has anything to do with those character traits. Laws are arbitrary, just like religious rules are arbitrary. If you "buy in" to a set of laws or a set of rules, then, sure I can see how following them would be important to you. I just don't see why you buy in to the laws just for no particular reason. 

 

I live in WV and followed our state legislative session fairly closely this year. Let me tell you, the folks who make laws here are full of shit and mostly idiots to the nth degree. I'm not just saying that due to political differences of opinions, I'm telling you that anyone with an IQ over 100 who watched these morons would understand that they are idiots, without sense, and making no good laws whatsoever, while making plenty of idiotic ones. After watching this, and of course watching our idiots in DC, I really can't understand how anyone could have a blind obedience to "the law". 

 

FWIW, it's 100% legal for vets to sell you vaccines that don't work and to guilt trip you into spending $1000s you don't have on a pet that is 99% going to die within weeks to months. Most of our local competitors do just those things. Over and over. My dh won't do those things. Ever. We decided a very long time ago that we're totally fine with going broke, so long as we keep our integrity. 

 

It's also entirely legal for us to not offer health insurance, paid time off, push the new mom into coming back FT right away though threat of job loss, etc. Oh, so many things are so legal. All our competitors do those things. We're not legally compelled to do the right things. But, we do them anyway. Because. We're good people.

 

Etc. Etc. We all make decisions every day about doing what is right vs doing what is easy. The law is very rarely helpful. Your conscience is most often very helpful. Relying on the "law" instead of your *heart* can numb you to what is right and good. Case in point: Politicians (on all sides, this is not a political rant). Think about it, and you can find many good examples . . . I won't offer examples, as that'd be political, lol.

 

Laws do not equal right. Counting on law-following as a guide to being a good person will take you not very far towards being a great person, IMHO. I'd rather focus on doing the right things because they are the right things, not because of an external rule/law.

[Guest]

Minimum speed limits, where applicable, have to be posted.

[*LC]

I grew up where fireworks are legal, so it never dawned on me that they were not legal in other places.

[Guest]

One year when I was away at summer camp, a guy literally right in front of my parents and sister got killed to death at the city fireworks, by fireworks. Scary.

 

This story has nothing to do with this thread, forgive me. Just thought I'd share a fireworks story.

 

I'm in the obeying laws and integrity are fundamentally separate things camp, though I obviously get the argument from the other side, Such as it is.

 

Conflating illegal fireworks displays with either Nazi Germany or coasting through a stop sign is a bit, uhm, beside the point though.

[Melissa in Australia]

I have a scar on the inside of my thigh from a firework from when I was a kid, before they were banned.

 

 

I support the ban of fireworks in my country. Not because I was hurt , but because the fire danger is too high. the bush burns too easily here. I live in the country with the highest fire danger in the world, in the state with the highest fire danger in my country.

[That70'sLisa]

This story has nothing to do with this thread, forgive me. Just thought I'd share a fireworks story.

 

I'm in the obeying laws and integrity are fundamentally separate things camp, though I obviously get the argument from the other side, Such as it is.

 

Conflating illegal fireworks displays with either Nazi Germany or coasting through a stop sign is a bit, uhm, beside the point though.

 

 

So, I see you equate following rules and laws with honesty and integrity. 

 

I can see why, in that context, following rules and laws would be so important to you. I value those traits, too.

 

I don't make that correlation, at all.

 

Rigid rule-follower here. My son has been diagnosed with autism, and yep, I share a lot of traits with him.

 

It's funny to me that it never, ever occurred to me that there doesn't have to be a correlation between following the rules and honesty and integrity. (The only exceptions I could reason my way into were the clearly -to me- against God's law ones.)

 

Y'all have turned my rule-following world upside down.

[Guest]

Wow, I don't actually know anyone who tracks personal purchases on the internet to pay the appropriate sales/use tax.

 

I track those untaxed purchases at our business and do pay all appropriate taxes at work, as I don't like to cut any corners at a business.... records are easy to track, and thus the risks are higher as are the chances of an audit . . . Besides, I pay our office manager to keep all those records straight, so I don't have to do it. So, we do it.

 

But, wow, you track the $20 doodads you buy off eBay or other sites that don't collect sales tax. I'm impressed. Way to go! What a PITA that must be! Do you track them all on a spreadsheet or what? Or maybe you aren't a big online shopper?

 

Me, nope, no way. Bring on the auditors to find my $25 doodads, etc. Not worth my bother, IMHO. If it's worth somebody's time to figure out which doodads did and didn't collect sales tax upon sale, and how much I owe, then I'll pay . . . until then, forget it.

My state made it worth my time to go thru my internet buy list by making the default unpaid sales tax very high. Just like charitable donations, I have to fill the unpaid sales tax line out correctly if I don't want to go with the default, and have documentation to back it up.

Edited July 2, 2017 by Heigh Ho

[Wheres Toto]

Seriously, I'd tell the neighbors that if they do it again, the dog is going to the nearest shelter, and I'll continue to do so until they supervise their animal.

 

 

This one isn't a law - and I don't see how it's likely to inconvenience anybody else. Surely "children's menu" just means "we think these dishes will appeal to kids" and neither "children only, no grown-ups allowed" nor "children cannot eat those other foods".

 

I purchase men's socks for myself. I don't feel that the fact that they're labeled "men's" means I should ask about those either. That's just what we call those socks that are big enough to fit my feet.

 

Yes to the children's menu thing.  Some restaurants, the only place they have things like individual pizzas, plain pasta, or mac & cheese are on the children's menu.  Since those are some of the only things my sensory Aspie child will eat, the fact that he feels like it's "breaking the rules" is very frustrating.  Most places don't care, but we've had the occasional waiter or waitress who thought it was a big deal and had to "ask a manager".   :confused1:

 

I wear a 9 1/2 shoe.  I also buy "men's" socks.

[regentrude]

It's funny to me that it never, ever occurred to me that there doesn't have to be a correlation between following the rules and honesty and integrity. (The only exceptions I could reason my way into were the clearly -to me- against God's law ones.)

 

 

Having grown up in a totalitarian country, the distinction between following the rules on one hand and honesty+integrity on the other was ingrained in me from early childhood :)  In fact, honesty and integrity often required to disregard the rules. 

 

ETA: I find this thread particularly ironic since this country (I assume most posters hail from the US) was founded on open rebellion against established law and rule.

Edited July 2, 2017 by regentrude

[regentrude]

Territory Day fireworks injure dozens and spark multiple blazes.

 

In 2016 emergency services attended 93 disturbances involving fireworks, four structure fires, four vehicle fires, eight bin fires and 256 grass fires.

Official figures haven’t been released for this year but the fire services incident map on Saturday night showed dozens of fires across Darwin and Palmerston.

~

What a waste of emergency services, all so people can see pretty lights and loud noises. Honestly, it's a bit stupid. 

 

"In 2013, fireworks caused an estimated 15,600 reported fires in the U.S., including 1,400 structure fires, 200 vehicle fires, and 14,000 outside and other fires."

 

"According to the CPSC, more than one-third (35%) of the people seen in emergency rooms for fireworks injuries from June 20-July 20, 2014 were under 15; nine percent were under five."

 

http://www.nfpa.org/news-and-research/fire-statistics-and-reports/fire-statistics/fire-causes/fireworks

[scoutingmom]

What do you mean by obselete?

Laws that existed a long time ago, but were never removed and don't really apply anymore

 

 

Like laws about not tying your horse up to a fence within 10 feet of the railroad.

 

Or having to hide your car behind something if there is a horse on the road.

 

Or not being allowed to consume pretzels in a bar.

 

 

I don't think I have broken any, but figured someone might come out with some example I had never heard of if I didn't exclude those.

 

Stuff like th

[regentrude]

Laws that existed a long time ago, but were never removed and don't really apply anymore

...

 

I don't think I have broken any, but figured someone might come out with some example I had never heard of if I didn't exclude those.

 

Like this one? It is illegal for a woman to drive a car unless her husband walks in front of it waving a flag.

[scoutingmom]

 

 

So, I see you equate following rules and laws with honesty and integrity.

 

I can see why, in that context, following rules and laws would be so important to you. I value those traits, too.

 

I don't make that correlation, at all.

 

I never promised anybody I'd follow all the laws. I don't intend to promise that to anybody, lol.

 

Some of the greatest, most honest people with lots of integrity are rule-breakers.

 

I, too, value honesty and integrity. I just don't see that following laws has anything to do with those character traits. Laws are arbitrary, just like religious rules are arbitrary. If you "buy in" to a set of laws or a set of rules, then, sure I can see how following them would be important to you. I just don't see why you buy in to the laws just for no particular reason.

 

I live in WV and followed our state legislative session fairly closely this year. Let me tell you, the folks who make laws here are full of shit and mostly idiots to the nth degree. I'm not just saying that due to political differences of opinions, I'm telling you that anyone with an IQ over 100 who watched these morons would understand that they are idiots, without sense, and making no good laws whatsoever, while making plenty of idiotic ones. After watching this, and of course watching our idiots in DC, I really can't understand how anyone could have a blind obedience to "the law".

 

FWIW, it's 100% legal for vets to sell you vaccines that don't work and to guilt trip you into spending $1000s you don't have on a pet that is 99% going to die within weeks to months. Most of our local competitors do just those things. Over and over. My dh won't do those things. Ever. We decided a very long time ago that we're totally fine with going broke, so long as we keep our integrity.

 

It's also entirely legal for us to not offer health insurance, paid time off, push the new mom into coming back FT right away though threat of job loss, etc. Oh, so many things are so legal. All our competitors do those things. We're not legally compelled to do the right things. But, we do them anyway. Because. We're good people.

 

Etc. Etc. We all make decisions every day about doing what is right vs doing what is easy. The law is very rarely helpful. Your conscience is most often very helpful. Relying on the "law" instead of your *heart* can numb you to what is right and good. Case in point: Politicians (on all sides, this is not a political rant). Think about it, and you can find many good examples . . . I won't offer examples, as that'd be political, lol.

 

Laws do not equal right. Counting on law-following as a guide to being a good person will take you not very far towards being a great person, IMHO. I'd rather focus on doing the right things because they are the right things, not because of an external rule/law.

Without laws you have anarchy. If everyone ignores laws, you move towards that anarchy and everyone for themselves. You might think that fireworks and speeding is a stupid law. Someone else thinks that drug laws are stupid. Another that laws against stealing is stupid, and yet another that the murder laws are stupid. If everyone just picks and chooses what laws they are going to follow.... well, it is a scary thought. I know the laws don't stop everyone who would do things, but they stop some and punish others.

 

 

I don't use laws as a moral compass. I obey laws AND follow my moral compass. I don't get why the belief that a person should follow the laws seems to make you think that means blind obedience, I just don't get that.

 

If most of your law makers are idiots, maybe you need to work towards getting better law makers. It isn't like you live in a dictatorship.

 

Among other things, I follow the scout law. (Yes, another 'law').

 

A scout is helpful and trustworthy, kind and cheerful, considerate and clean, wise in the use of all resources.

 

 

I made a promise.

"On my honour I promise to do my best

To do my duty to God and the Queen

To help other people at all times

And to carry out the spirit of the Scout Law"

 

As a cub leader, I "Do my Best". I do my best to be a good citizen. I do my best to be the best human I can.

[scoutingmom]

Having grown up in a totalitarian country, the distinction between following the rules on one hand and honesty+integrity on the other was ingrained in me from early childhood :) In fact, honesty and integrity often required to disregard the rules.

 

ETA: I find this thread particularly ironic since this country (I assume most posters hail from the US) was founded on open rebellion against established law and rule.

Maybe that is it... I'm Canadian. We became a country by an act of legislation instead of rebellion.

 

(Ie, we worked to change laws)

[scoutingmom]

Like this one? It is illegal for a woman to drive a car unless her husband walks in front of it waving a flag.

Yes... to be fair I don't know where that law exists. I think it is in a State where I have never even been. But yes, there might be some obsolete law like that that I am unaware of where I live.

[regentrude]

Yes... to be fair I don't know where that law exists. I think it is in a State where I have never even been. 

 

Louisiana

Edited July 2, 2017 by regentrude

[Rebel Yell]

Well... PA appreciates all the tax dollars from nearby states.  They are legal to buy here - as long as one is NOT a state resident.  They're illegal to use here, so businesses can't sell them to residents - only to people from out of state.  Fireworks places are always super busy this time of year, but if I were to go in to buy anything I couldn't due to not having an out of state driver's license.  We get the tax dollars though.  I guess that's a plus.  Those who set them off generally have someone else from out of state buy them - or they have to go to SC to get them (so I've heard).

 

Not all that long ago this policy was challenged in court - and declared fine and dandy.  It still kinda boggles my mind TBH.

 

 

Hmmmmm I'm wondering if the same people who wrote those laws also wrote our homeschool laws :rolleyes:

 

 

 

In my opinion, items on the children's menu are discounted for kids. Particularly if it specifies "for ages 12 and under" on the menu.

I respect the restaurant owner enough to ask if I want an exception.

Many restaurants have very cheap kids meals to entice families to eat there. I have seen some offer their $1.99 kids meal only with an adult entree.

 

I have often ordered a kids meal for my elderly grandmother- she just didn't have the appetite for a full meal, especially if there was no smaller or "senior" portion on the menu.

 

I always asked, and usual,y tipped on the amount I would have paid for a regular meal.

 

I order Happy Meals or other fast food kids meals for myself with no guilt- I have never seen a 10 or 12 and under note on the menu. And the tiny fries and soda are the perfect amount for me anyway. Plus I get a toy! :D

[frogger]

Having grown up in a totalitarian country, the distinction between following the rules on one hand and honesty+integrity on the other was ingrained in me from early childhood :) In fact, honesty and integrity often required to disregard the rules.

 

ETA: I find this thread particularly ironic since this country (I assume most posters hail from the US) was founded on open rebellion against established law and rule.

 

Would you say that there were unwritten rules about how you did things though?

 

I really think social laws are more important than governmental laws. I think a larger number of people associate integrity with obeying those social norms and or religious laws depending on where they live rather than some random thing politicians signed.

[regentrude]

Would you say that there were unwritten rules about how you did things though?

 

I really think social laws are more important than governmental laws. I think a larger number of people associate integrity with obeying those social norms and or religious laws depending on where they live rather than some random thing politicians signed.

 

Of course. There are always unwritten rules that govern social behavior.

But obeying social norms does not have to mean integrity! History is full of examples where people of integrity felt compelled to break social norms. In fact, many positive societal changes - women's rights, end of slavery, just to name two examples - have come about through people flouting those norms. 

 

To me, integrity means following a moral compass irrespective of, and sometimes even in spite of, social norms and external laws.

[frogger]

I agree. I'm curious where people get this moral compass. What if you disagree with another's "moral compass"?

[scoutingmom]

Louisiana

Yup, never been there.

[regentrude]

I agree. I'm curious where people get this moral compass. 

 

The bolded is a question philosophers have discussed for centuries. I don't know the answer - just that, contrary to popular belief, religion is not required, as evidenced by the many non religious people with a strong moral compass.

 

What if you disagree with another's "moral compass"?

 

Then you adhere to yours as best as you can, without interfering with the freedom and right to self determination of the other human

 

(ETA: which, in turn, stop where another person's freedom begins, so person A may interfere where person B infringes upon rights of person C, but that is where it becomes very complicated very quickly)

Edited July 2, 2017 by regentrude

[StephanieZ]

Without laws you have anarchy. If everyone ignores laws, you move towards that anarchy and everyone for themselves. You might think that fireworks and speeding is a stupid law. Someone else thinks that drug laws are stupid. Another that laws against stealing is stupid, and yet another that the murder laws are stupid. If everyone just picks and chooses what laws they are going to follow.... well, it is a scary thought. I know the laws don't stop everyone who would do things, but they stop some and punish others.

 

 

I don't use laws as a moral compass. I obey laws AND follow my moral compass. I don't get why the belief that a person should follow the laws seems to make you think that means blind obedience, I just don't get that.

 

If most of your law makers are idiots, maybe you need to work towards getting better law makers. It isn't like you live in a dictatorship.

 

Among other things, I follow the scout law. (Yes, another 'law').

 

A scout is helpful and trustworthy, kind and cheerful, considerate and clean, wise in the use of all resources.

 

 

I made a promise.

"On my honour I promise to do my best

To do my duty to God and the Queen

To help other people at all times

And to carry out the spirit of the Scout Law"

 

As a cub leader, I "Do my Best". I do my best to be a good citizen. I do my best to be the best human I can.

 

 

Oh, believe me, I work towards replacing WV's idiots. I've got poor odds, though, given the general idiocy in our state. I routinely donate to various causes . . . donated to multiple city council politicians (we successfully replaced the entire city council in a recent election, TYVM), sent $50 as a Mother's Day tribute to my deceased mom to the progressive who is primarying one of our idiot senators, show up at local political meetings, protests, etc . . . Oh, I'm doing my part, FWIW, but I have little hope of progress in my particular state. We're just neck deep in idiocy on all sides of the political spectrum. The poverty and ignorance in WV runs very deep, and we're pretty much an extraction industry colony, to tell you the truth. Both political parties are owned, full on, by the extraction industries and the drug industries. Corruption runs deep and strong. I have no realistic hope of my state improving. I have resigned myself to moving out of WV in a few years, once our kids are all in college . . . whichever kid settles somewhere nicer and saner . . . we'll likely follow in short order . . . unless one of our kids is determined to settle here in WV and figures out how to make a living here (not easy) . . . then maybe we'll stay . . . while holding our noses and pretty much focusing on our own little patch of dirt and not paying much attention to this depressing state. If the current health care plans move forward as proposed or similar, our entire state will truly likely implode in the near future . . . as the opioid crisis is so deep and our social resources so poor . . . and w/o the Medicaid expansion resources we've had in recent years, the opioid crisis would be so much worse, which is hard to imagine. WV might really just drop off the map. 

 

Anyway, beyond WV stuff . . . I never liked that stuff about scouts, either. Creeps me out. LOL. I always sort of crossed my fingers in my head when we recited that sort of thing. 

 

Have a beautiful evening. I'm clearly not going to convince anyone of my perspective, and that's just fine. Y'all go right on following all the laws you want. :) I'll go right on ignoring the ones I think are wrongheaded, and we'll all be just fine. 

[Frances]

Would you say that there were unwritten rules about how you did things though?

 

I really think social laws are more important than governmental laws. I think a larger number of people associate integrity with obeying those social norms and or religious laws depending on where they live rather than some random thing politicians signed.

Certainly obeying social norms and/or religious laws does not always equal integrity, as both current times and history have clearly shown us. Sometimes the law leads the way, for example, interracial marriage. At least in the US, laws rather than social or religious norms can help protect minorities against the tyranny of the majority.

[regentrude]

 At least in the US, laws rather than social or religious norms can help protect minorities against the tyranny of the majority.

 

"Can". Or not. 

Edited July 2, 2017 by regentrude

[creekland]

Maybe that is it... I'm Canadian. We became a country by an act of legislation instead of rebellion.

 

(Ie, we worked to change laws)

 

FWIW, there are just as many drivers who speed in Canada IME.  In some rural areas, stop signs are treated more like yield signs too - strangely akin to what I experience here in the US.

 

Since this is a fireworks thread (sort of), I want to add that many of our local communities seem to have decided to celebrate Canada Day today. :coolgleamA:   It was gorgeous outside on our walk tonight.  Fireworks in 4 different directions (all community fireworks, then one additional "personal" display, so 5 total) and fireflies lining the trees and rising up from the fields...tens of thousands of them.  I love firefly season.

 

I'm guessing areas opted to celebrate Canada Day rather than our own Independence Day - it's not convenient having a holiday on a Tuesday in 2107 apparently, so we'll adopt our neighbor's day.  ;)

 

Growing up along the border was fun this time of year.  Fireworks twice in one week!  But that's when it didn't matter which day of the week a holiday came on.  It was celebrated that day, not shifted.

[Danestress]

I don't have a huge fireworks beef, but I don't understand calling laws restricting them 'silly.' Like it or not, there are perfectly valid reasons why lawmakers might restrict the sale possession or use of certain types of fireworks. For example, there are risks of fire, damage to property, and injury to people. People can argue about how much risk there really is and how that risk should be weighed against people's desire to use them, but that's a legislative issue. Whether you live in a restrictive state or liberal state, if you don't like the law, work to change it. "It's fun for me" doesn't seem like a good enough argument for breaking that law.

 

I do like like having speed limits, though I may disagree with the limits in certain places. I don't want to eliminate speed limits. I recognize we have them as a matter of public safety. I still break them (modestly). Sometimes it is safer to go with the pace of traffic than to go at a speed limit that is much slower. So in that case, I think there are sometimes good reasons to drive a bit over the limit.

 

Raw milk? It's not illegal to drink it, generally, even where selling it may be illegal.

 

Prescription drugs? Generally giving a Vicodin to a husband only creates a risk for him (and a remote legal risk for you). Again, a law I might break (but never have had reason to) in an emergency. But I know I would never petition to change the law. It seems like a good thing generally to restrict prescription drug, but I can imagine a time when breaking the law might seem right.

Edited July 2, 2017 by Danestress

[creekland]

Certainly obeying social norms and/or religious laws does not always equal integrity, as both current times and history have clearly shown us. Sometimes the law leads the way, for example, interracial marriage. At least in the US, laws rather than social or religious norms can help protect minorities against the tyranny of the majority.

 

And again, this is why thought is more important than the letter of the law TBH.  Do we obey Jim Crow laws?  Do we turn in refugees knowing the life they'll get sent back to?  Do we jail the person stealing bread as in Les Miserables?

 

There are way too many variables to have a black and white outlook on "laws."

[frogger]

The bolded is a question philosophers have discussed for centuries. I don't know the answer - just that, contrary to popular belief, religion is not required, as evidenced by the many non religious people with a strong moral compass.

 

 

Then you adhere to yours as best as you can, without interfering with the freedom and right to self determination of the other human

 

(ETA: which, in turn, stop where another person's freedom begins, so person A may interfere where person B infringes upon rights of person C, but that is where it becomes very complicated very quickly)

I'm glad you added your edit because that is what I was going to comment on. Almost every action we take affects others, even shooting off fireworks so the vast majority of our life is dealing with who affects whom and how much. What can be demanded and what must be accepted. I think this becomes a huge morality issue when you start comparing parental rights and children's rights. I'm afraid most of our lives are in the complicated part of your post.

[frogger]

Certainly obeying social norms and/or religious laws does not always equal integrity, as both current times and history have clearly shown us. Sometimes the law leads the way, for example, interracial marriage. At least in the US, laws rather than social or religious norms can help protect minorities against the tyranny of the majority.

The law usually only passes after societal pressure. There are times people are trying to drag laws into existence and or get rid of them like the Jim Crowe laws. Laws usually are simply a sign that one side of society is already winning. They can be bad or good.

[Frances]

The law usually only passes after societal pressure. There are times people are trying to drag laws into existence and or get rid of them like the Jim Crowe laws. Laws usually are simply a sign that one side of society is already winning. They can be bad or good.

It was thirty years after the court ruling on interracial marriage before the majority of Americans approved of it.

[scoutingmom]

 

 

FWIW, there are just as many drivers who speed in Canada IME. In some rural areas, stop signs are treated more like yield signs too - strangely akin to what I experience here in the US.

 

Since this is a fireworks thread (sort of), I want to add that many of our local communities seem to have decided to celebrate Canada Day today. :coolgleamA: It was gorgeous outside on our walk tonight. Fireworks in 4 different directions (all community fireworks, then one additional "personal" display, so 5 total) and fireflies lining the trees and rising up from the fields...tens of thousands of them. I love firefly season.

 

I'm guessing areas opted to celebrate Canada Day rather than our own Independence Day - it's not convenient having a holiday on a Tuesday in 2107 apparently, so we'll adopt our neighbor's day. ;)

 

Growing up along the border was fun this time of year. Fireworks twice in one week! But that's when it didn't matter which day of the week a holiday came on. It was celebrated that day, not shifted.

True enough. I think there are just as many Canadians that think laws are suggestions as Americans.

 

 

 

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[scoutingmom]

 

 

Anyway, beyond WV stuff . . . I never liked that stuff about scouts, either. Creeps me out. LOL. I always sort of crossed my fingers in my head when we recited that sort of thing.

 

Have a beautiful evening. I'm clearly not going to convince anyone of my perspective, and that's just fine. Y'all go right on following all the laws you want. :) I'll go right on ignoring the ones I think are wrongheaded, and we'll all be just fine.

So stating a promise that you have no intentions of keeping is fine with your personal honesty and integrity as long as you cross your fingers?

 

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[maize]

Louisiana

Oh dear. I have driven through Louisiana and husband did not walk ahead of me waving a flag.

[StephanieZ]

So stating a promise that you have no intentions of keeping is fine with your personal honesty and integrity as long as you cross your fingers?

 

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No, it wasn't that I didn't agree with what I was saying or didn't think the ideas expressed were lovely . . . It's more that I don't like the idea of HAVING an oath like that. I think oaths should be reserved for more meaningful relationships. I think forcing allegiance to an oath is creepy, so any time I recite one (to America, to a religious creed, to the Scouts, etc), I have always been repulsed, even when I agreed with every lovely idea expressed. I always hated reciting the Nicene Creed, even when I was a committed and happy Episcopal. I always hated the Pledge all when I was growing up. I still do. I love our nation, but I do not love the demand for a pledge. Yuck. I love singing America the Beautiful -- it's a love song to our country. I don't love reciting the Pledge because it feels more like a shackle used to control and limit us rather than a love song. I wouldn't ask my kids to pledge allegiance to our family, but I still expect and observe loyalty, etc to our family. I made vows on my wedding day. I can't actually think of any OTHER formal/required vows that have ever been meaningful to me. Yuck. 

 

I'm not sure why you're so antagonistic, but I'm going to step out of this conversation. I had entered into it in good faith, to share ideas. I'm not interested in continuing a debate that has devolved into this.

 

Take it easy. 

[frogger]

Oh dear. I have driven through Louisiana and husband did not walk ahead of me waving a flag.

 

How could you?!

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Oh dear. I have driven through Louisiana and husband did not walk ahead of me waving a flag.

You're a bad, bad girl!

[frogger]

No, it wasn't that I didn't agree with what I was saying or didn't think the ideas expressed were lovely . . . It's more that I don't like the idea of HAVING an oath like that. I think oaths should be reserved for more meaningful relationships. I think forcing allegiance to an oath is creepy, so any time I recite one (to America, to a religious creed, to the Scouts, etc), I have always been repulsed, even when I agreed with every lovely idea expressed. I always hated reciting the Nicene Creed, even when I was a committed and happy Episcopal. I always hated the Pledge all when I was growing up. I still do. I love our nation, but I do not love the demand for a pledge. Yuck. I love singing America the Beautiful -- it's a love song to our country. I don't love reciting the Pledge because it feels more like a shackle used to control and limit us rather than a love song. I wouldn't ask my kids to pledge allegiance to our family, but I still expect and observe loyalty, etc to our family.

 

 

Take it easy.

I do not say the pledge myself. I told my children when they are adults they may choose to say the pledge. I find it incredibly creepy or meaningless to force preschoolers and elementary students to repeat an oath or pledge.

[frogger]

It was thirty years after the court ruling on interracial marriage before the majority of Americans approved of it.

Compare that with prohibition where people actually could act upon the law and choose whether to follow it or not. If you as an individual disagree with a law you won't follow it. Well, some in this thread would but if the majority don't want to follow it it gets harder and harder to enforce unless you designate specific populations to target.

 

This is why laws that target particular groups in a negative way are more likely to be accepted than ones that hit the population as a whole.

 

This makes me want to go look up the history of interracial marriage in the US. I know some facts and can make some guesses why it did evolve but I really don't know exactly how it went from acceptance of interracial marriages to the court case.

 

Edited for mixed up prepositions.

Edited July 2, 2017 by frogger

[MaeFlowers]

I have to say, I've always thought the Hive was huge, but seeing how many of you say you obey the speed limit... can't say I've come across you in my travels. ;)

 

The typical slow traveler is doing at least 5 mph over the speed limit on regular roads and between 5 and 10 over on highways. That's the range I'm in most places and we pass very, very few cars - usually trucks, elderly, or new drivers. When we get one of those speed limit followers, esp on highways, it can create quite the backup and worse traffic due to the folks who feel the need to jockey between lanes impatient to pass. When everyone is going along at that "normal" pace, traffic moves far more easily.

I have to agree. I live in a different state but speeding is the norm here. If I see someone following the speed limit I generally assume they are aged, intoxicated or on their cell phone.

 

Driving the speed limit when everyone else is speeding actually makes the road more hazardous. It impedes the flow of traffic and causes other drivers to change lanes more frequently which, of course, increases the risk of accidents. From what I have been told, police consider them as big a nuisance as someone excessively speeding.