I've had a huge perspective change recently...

[Greta]

Since I have posted several times in various discussions on these boards in defense of legalized abortion, I feel that I should be honest and "come out" and declare that I have had a major change of heart on this issue recently. I am not trying to change anyone else's perspective. I realize that the likelihood of accomplishing that in this kind of forum is virtually zero, and it's not really my goal anyway. My only goal is to explain that I have had this shift in perspective, because otherwise the inconsistency between my past and future posts might be very confusing.

 

So that's basically my point in a nutshell right there. If you have any interest in why/how this came about, I invite you to keep reading. If you don't, I don't blame you, and I wish you a happy day. :)

 

My pro-choice stance was based on two foundational beliefs: 1) that life in any meaningful sense (personhood, sentience, etc.) begins at birth and 2) that access to abortion was critical for women's rights.

 

The first wall began to crumble a few months ago, for religious reasons that I won't dwell on since so few others here are Buddhist (but basically, when I read that the Buddha had memories of his past lives *and of being in his mother's womb* that forced me to reconsider my beliefs.) But the realization that a completely NON-RELIGIOUS case can be made against abortion was also big for me. I had mostly thought of this as a Christian issue, so hearing arguments from people who were other religions or no religion had a big impact. And reading some arguments against abortion from liberals who were presenting and defending a *consistent* life ethic, who advocate non-violence all the way from conception to natural death, who are anti-war, anti-death penalty, and anti-abortion, was hugely eye-opening for me. It brought home to me the inconsistency and contradictions in my own professed beliefs. I've always advocated peace and non-violence, and I grew very concerned about finding myself on the side of "it's okay to kill under these circumstances" which is dangerously close to "it's okay to kill when it's convenient for me".

 

The second wall began to crumble when I read pro-life arguments from feminists, from women who believe that abortion has done far more harm to women and the women's movement than it has good. Since they can make this case so much more eloquently than I can, I'll just point you to some of their writings, if anyone is interested.

 

http://www.feministsforlife.org/FFL_topics/index.htm

 

(Under "Recommended Reading" there are many good articles. I especially liked "The Feminist Case Against Abortion" as a starting point, but everything listed there is good.)

 

Honestly, all of this is said only because I thought some of you who know me might wish to know how such a drastic paradigm shift in my pov could have happened. I'm not sure if I explained it adequately, so I welcome questions/comments, both public and private. To be perfectly honest, I am still working out my feelings and beliefs, so I don't claim to have all the answers.

 

[One little "disclaimer" for the one or two other Buddhists on the boards that might happen upon this post: I'm certainly not trying to argue that you have to be pro-life in order to be Buddhist. I'm only saying that *my* Buddhist path recently led me in this direction. So far, my Buddhist path has not led me to vegetarianism, though I know it does for many Buddhists. The way I see it is that we're all on this journey together, even though we may take different routes to get there.]

 

Thanks for reading this. I sincerely hope that I have not upset or offended anyone on EITHER side of this issue. Believe me that is the last thing I want. I hope that we (in general, and including our lawmakers, and not just us here on the boards) can build upon common ground, rather than allowing this issue to grow more divisive.

[sdWTMer]

That's awesome Greta. Thanks for sharing.

[Daisy]

No offense taken. You articulated your shift in thought very well. I admire your willingness to "be in process" and allow us to follow your journey.

[beansprouts]

Greta, I have always respected your gentle, articulate nature. It takes great maturity, perspective, and humility to be able to come to such a drastic shift in your thinking. I am very glad that you are a part of this forum. :grouphug:

[Debbie in OR]

That was very well stated. Thanks for sharing that...very thought-provoking!

[Annie Laurie]

I appreciated you sharing that as well, you stated that all very gracefully and respectfully. Thanks for sharing it.

[Lovedtodeath]

I appreciated you sharing that as well, you stated that all very gracefully and respectfully. Thanks for sharing it.

:iagree:To add my thoughts: I was born at 7 months and I have had to have therapy for memories of my first few days of life. Newborns have memories, but they are hard to express to our adult brains since newborns have not yet aquired language. If I had no religion, my personal experience makes me fully against abortion and I have a hard time reading about it at all, even from a pro-life perspective. I was glad to see other memories mentioned.

[Kanga]

Thank you for the link. I am a Christian and pro-life, but I come to my pro-life positions from a different perspective than a lot of Christians. I have always had trouble articulating my feelings eloquently. My belief that abortion is very convenient for men and benefits them more than the women that have to live with the decision comes from my knowledge that most of my friends that have had abortions have been pushed, coerced, or threatened by boyfriends, fathers, and husbands to do so. I look forward to reading the articles to see how others verbalize their opinions.

[PariSarah]

And a lot of respect for you, for explaining yourself so cogently and gracefully on such a controversial issue.

 

Blessings to you.

[Greta]

Thank you all so much for your kind thoughts! Truly, I can't tell you how much it means to me. I was really nervous about posting this, but at the same time felt very strongly that I need to. So I am so relieved and happy that it is being well received.

 

Gosh, Beansprouts, I don't think I'm quite deserving of such praise, but thank you so much. It's almost disorienting to have such a huge change in perspective. I seem to be on a 17-year cycle for major life changes. I had a huge change in perspective at 17, and now I am doing so again at 34 (on this and other issues, mostly spiritual). I wonder what 51 will bring? :001_smile:

[LG Gone Wild]

 

... for religious reasons that I won't dwell on since so few others here are Buddhist (but basically, when I read that the Buddha had memories of his past lives *and of being in his mother's womb* that forced me to reconsider my beliefs.)

 

.

 

That is a totally new way (to me) of looking at it.

 

I had a change of heart from pro-choice to pro-life because of an experience. Oddly enough, what I saw would probably persuade people to a more pro-choice stance but it did the opposite for me. If you want to know, you can PM.

[Greta]

To add my thoughts: I was born at 7 months and I have had to have therapy for memories of my first few days of life. Newborns have memories, but they are hard to express to our adult brains since newborns have not yet aquired language.

 

Carmen, thank you for sharing this. I had never heard of any kind of therapy which could help access those kinds of memories. That's very interesting!

[cathmom]

Here's a book you may find interesting:

http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Life-Unborn-Child-Prepare/dp/0440505658/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1224874912&sr=8-1

[Greta]

Thank you for the link. I am a Christian and pro-life, but I come to my pro-life positions from a different perspective than a lot of Christians.

 

And I am realizing that perhaps I could have been a bit more delicate when I was saying that arguments from other religions and from non-religious people were more powerful to me than arguments from Christians. I certainly intend no disrespect to the Christian faith. And it's not that I think the voices of Christians are any less important or powerful. It's only that when one does not have faith in the Bible, and people attempt to use scripture to persuade you, it's simply ineffective. So, since I personally lack that faith, the non-sectarian arguments were more persuasive to me. I hope I'm making sense and not making it worse!

 

My belief that abortion is very convenient for men and benefits them more than the women that have to live with the decision comes from my knowledge that most of my friends that have had abortions have been pushed, coerced, or threatened by boyfriends, fathers, and husbands to do so. I look forward to reading the articles to see how others verbalize their opinions.

 

Yes, you will find very similar sentiments on the Feminists For Life website. One thing they point out, which I appreciated, is that the belief in "Our Bodies, Our Choice" also makes it Our Problem. It absolves men of the responsibilities of fatherhood (and the rights, too). It makes babies into "women's problem" when they should be everyone's shared concern and joy. Well, I'm not finding quite the right words here, but hopefully you will enjoy some of the articles there.

[Jackie in AR]

Since I have posted several times in various discussions on these boards in defense of legalized abortion, I feel that I should be honest and "come out" and declare that I have had a major change of heart on this issue recently. I am not trying to change anyone else's perspective. I realize that the likelihood of accomplishing that in this kind of forum is virtually zero, and it's not really my goal anyway. My only goal is to explain that I have had this shift in perspective, because otherwise the inconsistency between my past and future posts might be very confusing.

 

So that's basically my point in a nutshell right there. If you have any interest in why/how this came about, I invite you to keep reading. If you don't, I don't blame you, and I wish you a happy day. :)

 

My pro-choice stance was based on two foundational beliefs: 1) that life in any meaningful sense (personhood, sentience, etc.) begins at birth and 2) that access to abortion was critical for women's rights.

 

The first wall began to crumble a few months ago, for religious reasons that I won't dwell on since so few others here are Buddhist (but basically, when I read that the Buddha had memories of his past lives *and of being in his mother's womb* that forced me to reconsider my beliefs.) But the realization that a completely NON-RELIGIOUS case can be made against abortion was also big for me. I had mostly thought of this as a Christian issue, so hearing arguments from people who were other religions or no religion had a big impact. And reading some arguments against abortion from liberals who were presenting and defending a *consistent* life ethic, who advocate non-violence all the way from conception to natural death, who are anti-war, anti-death penalty, and anti-abortion, was hugely eye-opening for me. It brought home to me the inconsistency and contradictions in my own professed beliefs. I've always advocated peace and non-violence, and I grew very concerned about finding myself on the side of "it's okay to kill under these circumstances" which is dangerously close to "it's okay to kill when it's convenient for me".

 

The second wall began to crumble when I read pro-life arguments from feminists, from women who believe that abortion has done far more harm to women and the women's movement than it has good. Since they can make this case so much more eloquently than I can, I'll just point you to some of their writings, if anyone is interested.

 

http://www.feministsforlife.org/FFL_topics/index.htm

 

(Under "Recommended Reading" there are many good articles. I especially liked "The Feminist Case Against Abortion" as a starting point, but everything listed there is good.)

 

Honestly, all of this is said only because I thought some of you who know me might wish to know how such a drastic paradigm shift in my pov could have happened. I'm not sure if I explained it adequately, so I welcome questions/comments, both public and private. To be perfectly honest, I am still working out my feelings and beliefs, so I don't claim to have all the answers.

 

[One little "disclaimer" for the one or two other Buddhists on the boards that might happen upon this post: I'm certainly not trying to argue that you have to be pro-life in order to be Buddhist. I'm only saying that *my* Buddhist path recently led me in this direction. So far, my Buddhist path has not led me to vegetarianism, though I know it does for many Buddhists. The way I see it is that we're all on this journey together, even though we may take different routes to get there.]

 

Thanks for reading this. I sincerely hope that I have not upset or offended anyone on EITHER side of this issue. Believe me that is the last thing I want. I hope that we (in general, and including our lawmakers, and not just us here on the boards) can build upon common ground, rather than allowing this issue to grow more divisive.

 

You've articulated your change in position very well, Greta.

 

Thank you for sharing your journey.

[Carol in Cal.]

And I think that their view of the changes in thinking on campusses is accurate.

 

I attended Berkeley during the late 70's. There was one woman there who looked like she was pregnant, but never acknowledged it. She disappeared for 4 weeks at one point; she and her boyfriend told everyone that she had had an appendectomy. I assumed that she had had a baby and given it up for adoption, but this was never, never discussed. It was impossible to function there and be taken seriously if pregnant.

 

There was one other woman who took organic chem with me who had a baby. There was some subsidized childcare available, but you had to pick mornings or afternoons and o chem labs were all in the afternoons. She brought the baby to class. Everyone was embarrassed for her. The day that she changed his diaper during class, we were all grossed out. The professor took her aside and said, "I appreciate your problem, but your solution is unacceptable." I never saw her again.

 

Those were the only people I knew who gave birth during college. I knew no female grad student with a child. I knew no female tenure track professor with a child. I knew no undergrads with children, except for those two instances. I knew thousands of people. There must have been tons of abortions among my acquaintances. If anyone I had known would have dropped out of school to have a baby, I would have felt like it was a disaster. I would also have thought that having an abortion was wrong, but not a life sentence type disaster for the mom like having a baby would have been.

 

So. I think one of the things that influenced this POV then was the need to prove ourselves. Are we really serious, or are we going to drop out and get married/have babies? When I wrote my college admission essay, I felt that it was crucial to state that I would not get married until after graduation, no matter what. Because that was the 'suspician' that everyone felt about women then.

 

Another thing that influenced this POV was the desperate unhappiness of many SAHM's then. I was raised by a woman who was depressed most of the time. She never said anything good about her life, and often complained about being a 'drudge'. She looked down on herself. And she convinced me that childbirth was the worst thing that had ever happened to her (or to any woman) and that being a SAHM was a fate akin to purdah, and very much like being buried alive. I knew no one who felt anything different.

 

So, being trapped into being a SAHM is death, and yet that is suspected of being the secret hope of all woman--so they maybe should not be educated or offered jobs. Yup, the trap closes.

 

So even if you believe that abortion is wrong, you can easily picture it happening, and even sympathize with it a bit. Even though you, personally, would never have one. Because the downside to having a baby during college is contempt, entrapment, and utter failure.

 

I'm so glad that you put this information out there. It IS time for a change; past time in fact.

[Ms. Riding Hood]

GretaLynne,

 

I agreed wholeheartedly with Beansprouts's post. I had totally forgotten an earlier conversation between us on the boards here until I saw your post today. Funny, but I hardly ever look at the general board, and if I do look I tend to only see the most recent posts that are right on top of the stack. When I saw yours, I immediately remembered a gracious note from you on this same subject that I had never responded to. I apologize for that oversight, and wanted to tell you that I think it courageous not only to post your changing views, but that you have had the courage to look deeply at yourself, your so-called "inconsistencies". It's hard to say "I was wrong". I don't want to put words in your mouth, maybe you wouldn't go that far. But you have effectively said that you were at least not completely right. That, in my opinion, is the hardest thing of all! I do applaud you for wrestling with this most important issue, which would be so easy to dismiss.

 

I don't want to be in violation of any board rules about not discussing politics, but I am curious if this shift will cause a shift in your voting preferences? And so you know, I haven't seen ANY of the political posts here on the board, so I have no idea if you've "taken sides" or expressed political views on the subject. If this question is a bad one, then I'll be happy to delete it right away!

[Mama Lynx]

Greta,

 

What a fantastic post! And very timely, as I find that, lately, I have been re-evaluating my pro-choice position, as well. I have not yet come to any conclusions, but thank you for the link.

[Scarlett]

GretaLynne,

I don't want to be in violation of any board rules about not discussing politics,

 

Did I miss another politics ban? The only one I saw was just a 2 day temp ban or something like that.

[Soph the vet]

Wow. Thanks so much for sharing your shift in thinking. This is really tremendous!

[hsmamainva]

Did I miss another politics ban? The only one I saw was just a 2 day temp ban or something like that.

 

Politics aren't banned, Scarlett, but 99.9% of threads about abortion - pro or con - get deleted.

[battlemaiden]

You explained yourself beautifully.

 

Jo

[BabyBre]

Very well put, Greta! Isn't the course of life amazing? Just when we think we may have seen it all, we have a life-changing epiphany, or understand something we could hardly conceive of before. Still at age 34, I'm learning new things every day.

 

 

But the realization that a completely NON-RELIGIOUS case can be made against abortion was also big for me. I had mostly thought of this as a Christian issue, so hearing arguments from people who were other religions or no religion had a big impact.

 

 

My case against abortion has always been non-religious and I find it frustrating to always be lumped in with the Christian right on this issue. I've often felt quickly dismissed by people when I begin to argue a pro-life stance. My arguement is simply that, as human beings it's our duty to protect innocent human life, wherever it's located - in the womb or out.

[Murphy101]

Wonderful news!

 

I don't think you were disrespectful at all in saying that the christian perspective held less weight for you. I happen to agree that this particuliar issue really has nothing to do with religion. It makes sense that someone of another faith would need other reasons to agree.

 

Glad to hear of your change of heart and mind on this issue.

 

:)

[Greta]

I had totally forgotten an earlier conversation between us on the boards here until I saw your post today.

 

I remembered! :001_smile: I was thinking of that, and several other conversations I've had here when I was writing my lengthy explanation.

 

I apologize for that oversight,

 

No need! We all have busy lives and it's easy to let conversations here fade away.

 

It's hard to say "I was wrong". I don't want to put words in your mouth, maybe you wouldn't go that far.

 

I definitely would go that far. I was wrong!

 

I don't want to be in violation of any board rules about not discussing politics, but I am curious if this shift will cause a shift in your voting preferences? ... If this question is a bad one, then I'll be happy to delete it right away!

 

No, it's a very good question! And the answer is a very complicated "yes and no". ;) This part is probably going to be even trickier to explain without offending anyone, but I will do my best. So please bear with me. And I'm going to avoid mentioning any particular political candidates or upcoming elections, because that just gets so heated!

 

I am a liberal and have been since the moment I first took note of politics (in my teens). And I really don't see my change of heart on this issue as a "challenge" to my liberalism, but more like a refining and even a strengthening of it. A big part of my liberal perspective is defending the weak, cheering for the under-dog, fighting for the rights of those who can't fight for themselves. The liberal history of demanding rights for women when they had virtually none, of fighting for racial equality, of demanding humane treatment of workers by employers, all the way up to the current struggles for living wages, public health care, and gay rights, those are things that I am really proud of. But somehow, when it comes to the very weakest people, the ones who TRULY cannot fight for their own rights and are entirely dependent on us to do it, we've lost sight of our compassion and decided that they are "disposable". I don't doubt the compassion of liberals, because I've seen it manifest so many times in so many ways. This disconnect has happened because we've convinced ourselves that a baby inside the womb isn't "really" a baby, it's "just" a fetus. So *that* is what I would work to change. Rather than "abandoning" the Democratic party, I will hope to change it for the better. And I learned that I am definitely not alone in this feeling. You might be interested in this: http://www.democratsforlife.org/

 

Furthermore, I think it is absolutely critical that all of us who care about this issue ask ourselves WHY women chose abortion. Even if it were made illegal tomorrow, all of us, in all political parties, know very well that many women would still seek abortions, even at great personal risk to themselves. Why would they do this? If we really want to reduce the number of abortions, we have to start by answering this question. Rather than simply criminalizing abortion and calling that an end to it, I would like to see the root causes of abortion addressed. One of the main reasons women give for seeking abortion is that they feel they don't have the financial resources to provide for a child. Health care in this country has become criminally expensive. I wonder if we had public health care, so that EVERY woman would have access to pre-natal care, birthing care, and beyond, how many abortions that would prevent.

 

I have many more thoughts bouncing around in my head about this. But I don't want to make this too long and boring, and my daughter wants a turn on the computer. :) I'll try to check in again later, and I want to thank everyone who has posted. Though I haven't responded to each individual reply, I assure you I have read and appreciated every single one. And I'll try to post some more responses soon!

[Michelle in MO]

And I am realizing that perhaps I could have been a bit more delicate when I was saying that arguments from other religions and from non-religious people were more powerful to me than arguments from Christians. I certainly intend no disrespect to the Christian faith. And it's not that I think the voices of Christians are any less important or powerful. It's only that when one does not have faith in the Bible, and people attempt to use scripture to persuade you, it's simply ineffective. So, since I personally lack that faith, the non-sectarian arguments were more persuasive to me. I hope I'm making sense and not making it worse!

 

I really understand your point here. If you don't share faith in the Bible, those arguments don't really help you.

 

I had a dear friend whose sister was Zen Buddhist (I think), and she also believed deeply in the value of all life, and this influenced many things in her personal life, including her diet, exercise, books that she read, etc. But, I think she also came to the same conclusions you have.

 

Thank you for sharing your POV. Very enlightening!

[hsmamainva]

Furthermore, I think it is absolutely critical that all of us who care about this issue ask ourselves WHY women chose abortion. Even if it were made illegal tomorrow, all of us, in all political parties, know very well that many women would still seek abortions, even at great personal risk to themselves. Why would they do this? If we really want to reduce the number of abortions, we have to start by answering this question. Rather than simply criminalizing abortion and calling that an end to it, I would like to see the root causes of abortion addressed. One of the main reasons women give for seeking abortion is that they feel they don't have the financial resources to provide for a child. Health care in this country has become criminally expensive. I wonder if we had public health care, so that EVERY woman would have access to pre-natal care, birthing care, and beyond, how many abortions that would prevent.

 

Wow!! I couldn't agree with you more!!!!!

 

:hurray:

[ma23peas]

Wow..Greta, just Wow! I am always in a bit of natural awe and wonder when folks make life changing decisions like these..being pro-life has been such a burden to me because our society pushes the pro-abortion (I don't like the word pro-choice simply because they had a choice at the point where they joined with another...rape and incest are less than 1% so I'm talking about the 99% of choice) view and my heart literally aches for those women who have had to endure an abortion....I have yet to meet one who does not have irretrievable pain that lasts....and the loss of the life, that's just almost too much for me to bear...thanks so much for your thoughtful words and openness..

 

Tara

[Lovedtodeath]

I am very proud of this discussion, so far what I see has stayed very civil!!:001_smile:

 

I have had therapy in conjunction with EFT and Holographic Repatterning. It uncovered the reason for my very severe PPD. The repressed memories came flooding back to me as a result of my son being in the hospital as a newborn. The second worst experience of my life. I despise hospitals, and have very little respect for the quality of care in one, especially in relation to babies. The therapy helped me put memories to the feelings and to neutralize the memories.

Edited October 24, 2008 by Lovedtodeath

[Harriet Vane]

Well said. Thank you for sharing your point of view so graciously and so eloquently.

[buddhabelly]

My son was verbal from a very young age. (I only mention this because it is what prevents most very young people from "telling us" about their past lives.) He used to talk about "a long time ago, when I was your sister."

 

I never really linked up my views on abortion with my Buddhist views, so your post is very interesting to me. I just thought I would add that very young people usually have more knowledge of previous lives than we might think.

 

If you ever get a chance to hear Hiroshi Motoyama speak, or even to read his book, "Karma and Reincarnation," I highly recommend it. He speaks of the "causes and conditions" that need to come about in order to unite a soul with parents. Usually there is some strong prior bond between the soul and one of the parents (sibling, spouse, friend).

 

Thanks for sharing your views with us.

 

Julie

[Aggie]

Thanks for sharing, GretaLynne. I appreciate hearing what others think, but also *why* they have the beliefs they do.

 

Aggie

[Jean in CA]

This is such a good point. If FEAR is the motivator of any choice we make, how can that be liberating for any woman? Thank you for such a thought-provoking thread.

 

"Furthermore, I think it is absolutely critical that all of us who care about this issue ask ourselves WHY women chose abortion. One of the main reasons women give for seeking abortion is that they feel they don't have the financial resources to provide for a child. "

Edited October 25, 2008 by Jean in CA

[FloridaLisa]

Greta Lynn,

 

Thank you so much for your post. I appreciate you sharing the rationale behind your point of view and some reasons I haven't even considered myself. I'd rep you if I could!

 

Lisa

[Haiku]

Greta, I am another person who changed my opinion about abortion. I understand wrestling with the idea from many perspectives. Your post was extremely elegant.

 

Tara

[Greta]

I wanted to again thank everyone who participated in this thread. Your kind comments were deeply appreciated, and it was very nice to hear from those of you who have taken a similar journey. I'm still finding my way and working out the details, but that may very well prove to be a lifelong process!

 

Thank you all for sharing in my journey,

Greta

 

ETA: Woke up this morning to a completely full PM inbox! So if anyone tried to PM me and it got bounced, please try again. I deleted some old ones to make more room. Thanks for all the messages!

Edited October 25, 2008 by GretaLynne

[The Governess]

Thank you sharing your experience! It's heartening to know that this issue CAN be talked about in a kind, thoughtful manner. I think what you said is so-true: making pregnancy affordable to women is a very important first step.

[beansprouts]

Thank you all for sharing in my journey,

Greta

 

Enjoy the ride, my Dear :001_smile:

[cathmom]

Thanks for posting that Feminists for Life link. I enjoyed reading about their focus on college women.

 

When I was pg with dc #2, I was a grad student. I went to Student Health for a pg test. When the dr. called me back, she looked very serious. We went into her office and she told me I was pg. I was thrilled and told her that my dh and I had wanted a baby. She told me that I had made her day - she hated telling students they were pg.

[GSMP]

I am very proud of this discussion, so far what I see has stayed very civil!!:001_smile:

 

 

 

I have to admit...that surprised me also.

 

Your thought process during this was interesting to view. What you wrote was sincere and articulate.

 

I wish you well on this journey of discovery.