Scarlett Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 OK..I hope this is not going to turn ugly..but I need to ask.... Multiple things have come up lately with aquaintances that have led me to ask... Where in the bible does it say to exclude gay people from church and lives in general? I know that some Christian churches teach that being gay is a sin, but I thought it What do you mean by it? said everyone was welcome in the church and I am not sure it said to exclude anyone from your life for being gay? I may be wrong..but I cannot find it. I would need to know what you mean by 'being gay'. Feelings or actions? Three situations come to mind- -friends' daughter left them and stays with a religious family and will not allow her family back in their lives and tells them they are all going to hell. Comes out the last time that I saw them that their son is gay and daughter wants son kicked out of their lives or she won't come back. They refuse. I assume this daughter is of age? She has the right to associate with people who uphold the values she believes in. I would hope she isn't harsh in her deliverance though. -friend's son (someone who has been on my FB a long time and I chat with from time to time but do not recall how we met) decided he is transgendered. She had been posting for a while about how devastated she was and how much she misses him and how awful this has been for her. She says his friends have been influencing him and he wants nothing to do with her. Later, though, found out from him that he would be ok to have something to do with her, but he/she wants to be called "she" and by her new name and to be accepted how she is. After that, I went back to my friend and suggested a compromise. She does not try to change him and he can come around. Afterall, she is devastated to the point of being as if her child died. I assumed she would want him back. Nope. He needs to repent first basically and completely give up anything with LGBTQ even in his private life when he is not around her. She says she also feels it would destroy her other children to know that she is ok with how he lives his life if she allowed him around. None of this makes sense to me. Even Jesus had prostitutes around him. Why can't she have her own son around? Just a brief comment about Jesus. He did allow a (likely) prostitute to pour oil on him and reading her heart and her actions he told her her sins were forgiven. Having sins forgiven requires repentance. As for your friend not allowing her son in her life again she has taken a stand for what she believes is right before God. And she has younger children to consider. -attended a church where the pastor is divorced and remarried. He preaches against LGBTQ and makes it clear that anyone gender alternative is not welcome at his church. Ask him why not, afterall, even if one accepts that LGBTQ is a sin, even Jesus said to bring the sinners. He said it is because they are still sinning currently and that is not acceptable. In order to be forgiven, you must turn from your sin. Um, ok..he is not with his first wife. Doesn't he need to immediately stop his adultery and go back to his first wife? Oh, and he is not his wife's first husband. They are both committed adultery. I can't speak to that church, but we do allow anyone to attend our services and we offer free Bible studies to anyone who wants one regardless of how they are living their life. In order to be a member though you are required to bring your life in line with God's standards. As far as the pastor being divorced and remarried.....I don't have enough details to know if he has a scriptural divorce and remarriage and I don't know how that church deals with leaders in those situations. However, I will say even if he divorced his wife without scriptural grounds he doesn't lose the right to speak against sin for the rest of his life. I think you see this as hypocrisy and it may be if he is living contrary to what his religion teaches. OK....these are my questions. I am not asking to offend. I am asking because I really do not understand the reason and I do not feel comfortable asking anyone in in-person-life as I am afraid to admit my real beliefs while I live in the bible belt. Yep, true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Well, I can't, can I? If a person believes they can only be friends with fellow conservative Christians, how could I possibly befriend them? I can't force someone to spend time with me against their will. But do you mean, do I have any conservative Christian friends who are willing to be friends with people outside their faith, yes, I do. I have friends (real life friends, not internet friends) who are liberal Christians, friends who are conservative Christians, and Christian friends who fall somewhere in between. Are you close friends with anyone who believes it is a sin to be a homosexual? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Yes, we all make decisions to pursue avenues we find acceptable (sexually and just in general), and decline other possibilities because they simply do not line up with our values. One person will decide he must pursue some relationship in the office because he "has to be happy" even though he is married. Another will walk away because his values lie elsewhere. This is absolutely no different. An affair (which breaks faith and trust of a marital relationship) is not at all the same as a gay person dating a person of the same sex or a transgender person transitioning to live as their gender. Living an authentic life as a queer person is not comparable to cheating on a romantic partner or doing drugs or murder or stealing, etc. 24 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Yes, we all make decisions to pursue avenues we find acceptable (sexually and just in general), and decline other possibilities because they simply do not line up with our values. One person will decide he must pursue some relationship in the office because he "has to be happy" even though he is married. Another will walk away because his values lie elsewhere. This is absolutely no different. My son being transgender is nothing at all like someone choosing to have an affair. How incredibly insulting! Yet some wonder what the issue is with people who talk about loving the sinner but hating the sin. It's stuff like what you post on almost every single one of these threads. 21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Well, I can't, can I? If a person believes they can only be friends with fellow conservative Christians, how could I possibly befriend them? I can't force someone to spend time with me against their will. But do you mean, do I have any conservative Christian friends who are willing to be friends with people outside their faith, yes, I do. I have friends (real life friends, not internet friends) who are liberal Christians, friends who are conservative Christians, and Christian friends who fall somewhere in between. You've answered your own question. Your Christian friends are willing to be friends with you. You probably aren't the closest of friends with the conservative scripturally-adherent ones if you disagree on very fundamental things and talk about that (unless you are able to compartmentalize well, and some can), but that doesn't mean you don't spend time together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Are you close friends with anyone who believes it is a sin to be a homosexual? I am, actually. She doesn't think gay marriage should be illegal, because she doesn't believe that religious beliefs should be legislated, but she definitely believes that, according to her belief system, it's a sin. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 My son being transgender is nothing at all like someone choosing to have an affair. How incredibly insulting! Yet some wonder what the issue is with people who talk about loving the sinner but hating the sin. It's stuff like what you post on almost every single one of these threads. Who is talking about your son? I didn't address you. I simply made the very true observation that some will be able to take certain actions and some will not, because of their faith. That is simply one example, of many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 You've answered your own question. Your Christian friends are willing to be friends with you. You probably aren't the closest of friends with the conservative scripturally-adherent ones if you disagree on very fundamental things and talk about that (unless you are able to compartmentalize well, and some can), but that doesn't mean you don't spend time together. I'm failing to see what point you're trying to make here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 An affair (which breaks faith and trust of a marital relationship) is not at all the same as a gay person dating a person of the same sex or a transgender person transitioning to live as their gender. Living an authentic life as a queer person is not comparable to cheating on a romantic partner or doing drugs or murder or stealing, etc. They are very much the same in terms of both being sexual sin (assuming sex occurs), for the biblically adherent Christian. ​ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 They are very much the same in terms of both being sexual sin (assuming sex occurs), for the biblically adherent Christian. ​ Transgender transitioning has nothing to do with sexuality. There are gay couples who, now that they have the option of marriage, wait until they are legally wed before they consummate their relationship. 14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 I'm not really sure you're using the correct term here. Empathy means sharing the same feeling. These parents on the show fully and whole heartedly supported their children, except for one father, if I remember correctly. The couples who knew their children felt different from the toddler stage. The parents who fully supported their young teens getting hormone treatment. The parents who were planning surgeries in the coming years for their child to fully make their transition. They did this with much thought, but much love and total acceptance. Really, you can share and understand these feelings? You can see yourself experiencing these emotions, this motherly support of your son if he should tell you he was a female? I know you are always honest here, but I'm finding it hard to believe you would feel like this. I thought we were talking about the torment they all feel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) You REALLY need to find that Frontline show. Really. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/growing-up-trans/ The video is just under an hour and a half, so I believe this is the full program. ETA: And here's the youtube link if you prefer something you can watch on a Roku or whatever: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-19bQ3b4nA Edited January 23, 2017 by Mergath 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravin Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Well when my son was 3 he declared he was a puppy. For a few months he annoyed the heck out of his dad by crawling around like a dog, hanging out his tongue and barking his answers to us. But soon he realized he is indeed a boy and that was that. I think one time he said he wished he was a girl because pink is a pretty color. I told him boys can like pink too and that was that. So I have zero life experience with people like what you describe. I have never known anyone who felt part another gender. It makes zero sense to me and sounds like something people say to make their behavior ok. The sort of behavior you describe in your son is why social transition is only considered for gender nonconforming children in whom expression that they have been assigned the wrong gender is consistent, insistent, and persistent. There are also gender nonconforming children who resist being steered away from their likes without claiming they belong in the other gender. E.g., some people will tell a boy who likes pink that pink is just for girls and he's not supposed to like it because he is a boy. If he insists on liking pink (or dolls, or whatever else is usually associated with "girl" by our culture but has nothing to do with actual biology), he may be considered gender nonconforming without being labeled transgender. Gender nonconforming boys are often discouraged and told they are wrong in our culture, more so than girls. And there is a point at which the line between gender nonconformity and transgender identity blurs, but in children social transition and delayed puberty are options parents and medical professionals consider when the situation is far more persistent and extreme, involving gender dysphoria, not just liking things assigned by culture to the other gender. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 I assume you are equating love with acceptance. The Bible does promote love for our neighbor. Ahead of that is love for God and that would of course include loving his standards and making those standards known to any who choose to listen. We pursue peace with all and have no specific beef with homosexuals. We do however seek to form our close friendships with those who are also seeking to uphold God's standards. Then why is homosexuality picked out from a multitude of other sins who are tolerated? Why do homosexuals receive more hostility than gluttons, liars, adulterers? What about pride and envy and greed? And no, loving God does not "of course" include shoving your standards down other people's throats. That's how you get people to turn away from Christianity. 18 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Then why is homosexuality picked out from a multitude of other sins who are tolerated? Why do homosexuals receive more hostility than gluttons, liars, adulterers? What about pride and envy and greed? And no, loving God does not "of course" include shoving your standards down other people's throats. That's how you get people to turn away from Christianity. I can't speak for other people but I am not hostile to homosexuals. Or to gluttons or anyone else. And I said nothing about shoving my standards down other people's throats. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bibiche Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 And no, loving God does not "of course" include shoving your standards down other people's throats. That's how you get people to turn away from Christianity. Seriously. And has anything else in the world ever inspired such hatred, such judgment, such destruction as this religion? I think it has overstayed its welcome. Time to make up a new religion based on principles of love and compassion and not hateful judgment this time. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 And I said nothing about shoving my standards down other people's throats. you said " making those standards known to any who choose to listen.". I has been my experience that "who choose to listen" is usually omitted and the standards are "made known" to people who are not interested. If your particular branch of Christianity restricts proselytizing only to people who specifically asked for it, more power to you. Sadly, this has not been my experience at all. On the contrary, even after repeated requests to stop, they would not. And let's not even talk about efforts to base laws on thee religious views. If your church does not engage in that, I commend it. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quark Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 If there was torment-- it was the parent dealing with the idea that other humans would think their child was not worthy, was sinful, abnormal, should not be afforded the exact same rights as the rest of us. That sort of thing. :iagree: ...or the victim/ target of a hate crime. Imagine living each day wondering if your child will be the target of a hate crime. 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 :iagree: ...or the victim/ target of a hate crime. Imagine living each day wondering if your child will be the target of a hate crime. This. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quark Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) deleted -- feeling too emotional Edited January 23, 2017 by quark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 :iagree: ...or the victim/ target of a hate crime. Imagine living each day wondering if your child will be the target of a hate crime. When my queer kid asked me about the city of their choice for college, I realized they meant safety for being lgbt. It hit me like a punch in the gut. I never, ever had to consider my personal safety for something as innocent as holding my bf's hand or giving him a kiss in public in college. This is something my kid can't take for granted. Reading comments here that show some Christians simply defer to biblical alternative facts. It's a real eye-opener. How are any of us to know which Christian is peaceful and which one believes the holy spirit is lighting a righteous fire under their feet when they see a gay person? My gay kid? 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Then why is homosexuality picked out from a multitude of other sins who are tolerated? Why do homosexuals receive more hostility than gluttons, liars, adulterers? What about pride and envy and greed? And no, loving God does not "of course" include shoving your standards down other people's throats. That's how you get people to turn away from Christianity. They don't. But the difference is that those who practice gluttony, lying, adultery, pride, envy, greed do not insist that you approve and celebrate their sins and create laws to protect it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 When my queer kid asked me about the city of their choice for college, I realized they meant safety for being lgbt. It hit me like a punch in the gut. I never, ever had to consider my personal safety for something as innocent as holding my bf's hand or giving him a kiss in public in college. This is something my kid can't take for granted. Reading comments here that show some Christians simply defer to biblical alternative facts. It's a real eye-opener. How are any of us to know which Christian is peaceful and which one believes the holy spirit is lighting a righteous fire under their feet when they see a gay person? My gay kid? Well, those who know it call it "biblical truth", not biblical "alternative facts". ​Because it is the truth. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 When my queer kid asked me about the city of their choice for college, I realized they meant safety for being lgbt. It hit me like a punch in the gut. I never, ever had to consider my personal safety for something as innocent as holding my bf's hand or giving him a kiss in public in college. This is something my kid can't take for granted. Reading comments here that show some Christians simply defer to biblical alternative facts. It's a real eye-opener. How are any of us to know which Christian is peaceful and which one believes the holy spirit is lighting a righteous fire under their feet when they see a gay person? My gay kid? Did you read anything in this thread from anyone who you felt would be hostile or violent to your child or any other homosexual? I didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quark Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) When my queer kid asked me about the city of their choice for college, I realized they meant safety for being lgbt. It hit me like a punch in the gut. I never, ever had to consider my personal safety for something as innocent as holding my bf's hand or giving him a kiss in public in college. This is something my kid can't take for granted. Reading comments here that show some Christians simply defer to biblical alternative facts. It's a real eye-opener. How are any of us to know which Christian is peaceful and which one believes the holy spirit is lighting a righteous fire under their feet when they see a gay person? My gay kid? I hear you. It's like a repeated kicking to the gut actually when you think about all the ways that your kid cannot be his/her/themselves. And yes, college choice was limited to the person I hold dear. We watched videos from the colleges' LGBTQ support services and researched all the ways this student could obtain support and only narrowed choices down afterwards. Many of those videos were interviews with LGBTQ teens and older grad students. Students who were supported by parents were so cheerful. You could feel this intense energy of being supported coming from them. So beautiful and heartwarming to watch. A few were not supported by parents and I cannot describe how many paper towels I went through watching their interviews. Everything from body language to how it affected their studies and why they felt like these support services were such a lifeline. ETA: deleted a sentence that might have inadvertently sounded insulting, sorry about that. Edited January 23, 2017 by quark 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QueenCat Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 To me, kicking my child out would be the bigger sin. :leaving: :iagree: Yes, that is a horrendous thing to do a child that isn't doing major drugs, stealing or creating an unsafe home environment. Those are things to consider kicking child out for, while you help them get help. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Did you read anything in this thread from anyone who you felt would be hostile or violent to your child or any other homosexual? I didn't. I read comments in this thread that illustrate just how emboldened some Christians are to eschew facts that don't conform to their beliefs. If the only Christians wandering around were the homeschoolers on this forum, I wouldn't much mind it so much, but there are literally millions of you. I'm surrounded. My gay kid is especially surrounded in the city in which they go to college. Thank goodness the college itself is very inclusive and supportive because there's simply no way to know which Christians are hostile and aggressive and feel justified in violence until after you get yelled at, punched in the face, or tied to a rural fence post and left to die. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twolittleboys Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Okay, I honestly don't see why any Christians would make a big deal out of any of these issues. Sure, there are some isolated instances in the Bible that may indicate homosexuality as a sin (or that can be construed to mean that). But at least in the Old Testament there are all kinds of things that are forbidden and nobody cares about them today. And of course the societal context in which the Bible was written needs to be considered. If this really was such a big deal, it would be part of the Ten Commandments and/or Jesus would have emphasized it. As far as I know, neither is the case. So even if it was a sin (don't really think so myself but let's just assume for a moment) it would be a very minor one. Nothing compared to being judgmental, lacking in mercy, selfish, greedy etc. As most of us have plenty to struggle with when it comes to these major issues, I don't understand why anyone would even worry about small stuff like this. But in my opinion the problem isn't the religion itself. It is people and the imperfect understanding of what Christianity really means. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liber Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 If you think homosexuality is a sin it is automatically labelled as hateful. There is no room for discussion in this matter It is stated as fact and must be believed as such. The expectation for us conservative Christians is that we need to evolve in our thinking and fall in line fast with that belief and then the world will be a better place. We are not allowed to be vocal in this opinion without facing backlash. This is an example of a deep ideological divide that is worsening. Where are the studies that prove conclusively that homosexuality is a biological fact?Or do researchers just feel strongly that it is and are still looking for proof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Where are the studies that prove conclusively that homosexuality is a biological fact?Or do researchers just feel strongly that it is and are still looking for proof. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xuzi Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) If you think homosexuality is a sin it is automatically labelled as hateful. There is no room for discussion in this matter It is stated as fact and must be believed as such. The expectation for us conservative Christians is that we need to evolve in our thinking and fall in line fast with that belief and then the world will be a better place. We are not allowed to be vocal in this opinion without facing backlash. This is an example of a deep ideological divide that is worsening. Where are the studies that prove conclusively that homosexuality is a biological fact?Or do researchers just feel strongly that it is and are still looking for proof. Even without scientific evidence (which there is), I tend to believe LGBT people when they say they've felt this way all (or almost all) their lives. It doesn't make sense to put up with all the crap they put up with for a simple choice, especially since many of them also express desire to have the more "traditional" life they know they "ought" to have, but know (often by painful experience) that it would make them miserable. Edited January 24, 2017 by Xuzi 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retiredHSmom Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Since we are talking about transgender here I do have a question. I am not trying to be difficult or misleading. I truly do not understand the statement that gender is not biological in nature and is not related to our genetics or outward sexual characteristics. With a few variations that I do not believe are at the root of most transgender situations we either have XX (female) or XY (male) chromosomes. We cannot choose that or change that. we are inherently male or female. Same with our genetalia (in most cases, granted there are exceptions but once again most transgender situations are not an exception). So we come to the way we feel and gender dysphoria. I truly believe that a person can feel like they are the wrong gender. What I don't understand is how that differs from body dysmorphia. Someone very close to me has anorexia nervosa and body dysmorphia. She definitely sees herself as too fat and would love to have liposuction, plastic surgery or to diet to change that. Her doctors assure he that these are not valid options for her. That she is mistaken in her feelings and needs to adjust to see things the way the rest of us do. Why is it different for gender dysphoria? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawana Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) If you think homosexuality is a sin it is automatically labelled as hateful. There is no room for discussion in this matter It is stated as fact and must be believed as such. The expectation for us conservative Christians is that we need to evolve in our thinking and fall in line fast with that belief and then the world will be a better place. We are not allowed to be vocal in this opinion without facing backlash. This is an example of a deep ideological divide that is worsening. Where are the studies that prove conclusively that homosexuality is a biological fact?Or do researchers just feel strongly that it is and are still looking for proof. If there were conclusive proof that sexuality was an inborn trait, or had genetic tendency that could be environmentally triggered, would you change your mind about homosexuality being a sin? If not, why are you attempting to discredit the science? ETA: My reply is in your quote. Sorry about that. Edited January 23, 2017 by Lawana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Even without scientific evidence (which there is), I tend to believe LGBT people when they say they've felt this way all (or almost all) there lives. It doesn't make sense to put up with all the crap they put up with for a simple choice, especially since many of them also express desire to have the more "traditional" life they know they "ought" to have, but know (often by painful experience) that it would make them miserable. This. It is obviously hard to be LGBT in society. I have a hard time believing such a large number of people would choose it. If it were a simple choice, most people would choose to live a conventional heterosexual life. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liber Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals Never quite understood how this is supposed to relate to humans. Animals eat their young too but we don't consider that desirable behavior in humans. I don't think it is very sound to apply animal behavior to human behavior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Never quite understood how this is supposed to relate to humans. Animals eat their young too but we don't consider that desirable behavior in humans. I don't think it is very sound to apply animal behavior to human behavior. Humans are animals. Humans kill their young too. See Susan Smith. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 I read comments in this thread that illustrate just how emboldened some Christians are to eschew facts that don't conform to their beliefs. I don't know what this means. What facts are being eschewed? If the only Christians wandering around were the homeschoolers on this forum, I wouldn't much mind it so much, but there are literally millions of you. I'm surrounded. My gay kid is especially surrounded in the city in which they go to college. Thank goodness the college itself is very inclusive and supportive because there's simply no way to know which Christians are hostile and aggressive and feel justified in violence until after you get yelled at, punched in the face, or tied to a rural fence post and left to die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Never quite understood how this is supposed to relate to humans. Animals eat their young too but we don't consider that desirable behavior in humans. I don't think it is very sound to apply animal behavior to human behavior. You asked whether homosexuality was 'a biological fact'. It has been observed throughout the animal kingdom of which we are a part. Whether it fits within your personal paradigm of desirable behaviour is a different question. 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 I read comments in this thread that illustrate just how emboldened some Christians are to eschew facts that don't conform to their beliefs. I don't know what this means. What facts are being eschewed? If the only Christians wandering around were the homeschoolers on this forum, I wouldn't much mind it so much, but there are literally millions of you. I'm surrounded. My gay kid is especially surrounded in the city in which they go to college. Thank goodness the college itself is very inclusive and supportive because there's simply no way to know which Christians are hostile and aggressive and feel justified in violence until after you get yelled at, punched in the face, or tied to a rural fence post and left to die. The knowledge we have of human behavior, particularly sexuality, namely lgbt variations. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 The knowledge we have of human behavior, particularly sexuality, namely lgbt variations. I am not eschewing such knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) Never quite understood how this is supposed to relate to humans. Animals eat their young too but we don't consider that desirable behavior in humans. I don't think it is very sound to apply animal behavior to human behavior. You asked for evidence that it is a "biological fact." The fact that it exists in the animal kingdom reveals that it is biological in origin, and not merely a product of human culture. Whether or not it's "desirable" is a separate, subjective question. ETA: I'm slow today. I didn't see that Laura had already given basically the same answer! :001_smile: Sorry! Edited January 23, 2017 by Greta 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Never quite understood how this is supposed to relate to humans. Animals eat their young too but we don't consider that desirable behavior in humans. I don't think it is very sound to apply animal behavior to human behavior. For the same reason we study animals to understand any part of human physiology. The more information we know, the efficiently we can identify and address problems, from circulation of the blood to behavior. Many of the basic structures and functions of the brain are common to all animals. Since complex human thoughts are built on a foundation of simpler mental processes that are evident in animals, animal studies can shed light on uniquely human behaviors. These processes are biological in nature, they're physical, and so can be studied methodically, with great attention to detail. Thrse studies give us more information about our own behavior. Sex isn't just a simple impulsive response to available reproductive organs. There's some very specific behaviors that can be observed and studied, from the humble fly to the president of the United States. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bibiche Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 liber, this might give you some perspective on why studying other animals helps us learn about humans. It's very interesting and well-done: http://www.pbs.org/your-inner-fish/home/ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravin Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Since we are talking about transgender here I do have a question. I am not trying to be difficult or misleading. I truly do not understand the statement that gender is not biological in nature and is not related to our genetics or outward sexual characteristics. With a few variations that I do not believe are at the root of most transgender situations we either have XX (female) or XY (male) chromosomes. We cannot choose that or change that. we are inherently male or female. Same with our genetalia (in most cases, granted there are exceptions but once again most transgender situations are not an exception). So we come to the way we feel and gender dysphoria. I truly believe that a person can feel like they are the wrong gender. What I don't understand is how that differs from body dysmorphia. Someone very close to me has anorexia nervosa and body dysmorphia. She definitely sees herself as too fat and would love to have liposuction, plastic surgery or to diet to change that. Her doctors assure he that these are not valid options for her. That she is mistaken in her feelings and needs to adjust to see things the way the rest of us do. Why is it different for gender dysphoria? The neurology of gender is complicated and still being researched for better understanding. We do know that some studies have found gender differences in the brain, and that there is a correlation between being transgender and some of these differences matching up with the person's identified, rather than assigned, gender. The brain is an important organ when it comes to sex and gender, and there are stages of development in which the brain is programmed as "male" or "female" at different times than other parts of the body. Gender and biological sex aren't the same thing. I think of gender identity as the biological sex of the brain, because some research points in that direction, and it makes intuitive sense to me. The difference between gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia is that someone with body dysmorphia does not correctly perceive their body, or has a distorted sense of what normal should look like. In your friend's case, they subjectively see themself as overweight and not as thin as they want to be, when objectively they may be unhealthily thin already. If a person with body dysmorphia carries on with trying to right their dysmorphia by changing their body, they endanger their health and generally cannot satisfy the ideal image they have in their head. No matter what they do, it may never feel "right" or "enough." Gender dysphoria, on the other hand, is not always physical, and when it is, changing the person physically through hormone therapy and/or surgery improves the person's mental health and how they feel about themselves. The "wrongness" they felt before transition is corrected. There is not some impossible goal they will kill themselves pursuing. It's more like if someone feels badly about themselves because they were born with a physical defect for which they are stigmatized and which can be corrected. There is a cost-benefit analysis to be done in medical transition. Surgery can mean giving up fertility, and there are health risks involved in long-term hormone replacement therapy. However, gender dysphoria is not entirely physical. For many people, social dysphoria is far more painful than a sense of physical wrongness. For some, which body parts are attached is irrelevant once they are on hormone replacement therapy and their brain perceives it's now getting the right balance of sex hormones. Some people don't experience any physical dysphoria at all, only social dysphoria. Experience varies. I would be willing to bet that if our culture (including dominant religions) was not so hung up on the gender binary and forcing sex and gender roles, there would be fewer people who seek medical transition and more people who express their gender identity in a fluid, nonconforming, or nonbinary way--though the vast majority of people do and still would see themselves as cisgender. 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 I am not eschewing such knowledge. Well, thanks for that assurance, but it doesn't solve my kid's problem about inadvertently offending the next Christian who believes they are righteously justified to dole out some punishment for the "crime" of being an unrepentant gay teen. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 Never quite understood how this is supposed to relate to humans. Animals eat their young too but we don't consider that desirable behavior in humans. I don't think it is very sound to apply animal behavior to human behavior. How about Bonobos? Bonobos are extremely close to humans genetically and behaviorally, and as a species they are also fully bisexual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 I can't speak for other people but I am not hostile to homosexuals. Or to gluttons or anyone else. And I said nothing about shoving my standards down other people's throats. But you say you can't be friends with a gay person. I am willing to bet though that you have friends and family who are gluttons, liars, tax cheats, adulterers etc. The church I grew up in would consider you an adulterer (remarriage is frowned on, doesn't matter why marriage broke up.) How would or feel if you were shunned because you remarried after a divorce? Note, I have zero problems with divorce and am happy that you were able to remarry. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 I can't speak for other people but I am not hostile to homosexuals. Or to gluttons or anyone else. And I said nothing about shoving my standards down other people's throats. If you don't know any AND say you can't be friends with any, how is it that you are not hostile? It's pretty hostile to assume that friendship is out of the question with people you say you have never even met. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 My trans brother married his husband in a church. The minister is a married gay man. Not all churches are morally opposed to homosexuality or transgenderedness. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 If you don't know any AND say you can't be friends with any, how is it that you are not hostile? It's pretty hostile to assume that friendship is out of the question with people you say you have never even met. "I love you, really I do! I just can't be your friend or interact with you or accept you or involve you in my life in any way." Yep, no cognitive dissonance there. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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