Remember when I said layoff related to race?

[Janeway]

It was just a guess and appeared that way from our sample of those we knew. Well, it was in the news today that the US government is suing that particular company because of these practices that I suspected them of.

 

If you know which company it is, don't post it here. It's not that it is a secret, I just don't want it to be publicly searchable to come back to this board. So feel free to PM me if you are really that curious.

[purplejackmama]

Is this the company that recently laid off your husband?

[Anne in CA]

Sometimes it's sad to be right. I'm so sorry.

[Janeway]

This is the company that is being sued due to paying a certain race a higher wage?

Yep. That one. I suspect they were stiffing the Visa population on wages and so they preferred hiring that population and quickly laid off the other.

[Janeway]

This is the company that is being sued due to paying a certain race a higher wage?

in fact, he wasn't even hired by them, he was acquired.

[Janeway]

That particular company, the CEO is one of the wealthiest people in the world. And he claims they need to have Visa employees because Americans are not qualified to do the jobs. The real story is that he gets away with getting rich off of underpaying Visa employees. He also routinely acquires other companies and then lays off the American employees and replaces them with Visa employees that he can take advantage of by underpaying them. 

[justasque]

Yep. That one. I suspect they were stiffing the Visa population on wages and so they preferred hiring that population and quickly laid off the other.

 

Then it was visa status / citizenship and not race-related?

[Arcadia]

Yep. That one. I suspect they were stiffing the Visa population on wages and so they preferred hiring that population and quickly laid off the other.

Two other companies were also sued recently. It would be interesting. A company near my home did hire lots of H1B through a major vendor contractor that is extremely well know in the h1b world. They haven't been sued yet.

[Janeway]

Then it was visa status / citizenship and not race-related?

Basically, yes. I do not have the official legal information, but I know what happened within the people we know or know of within the company. 

[Arcadia]

Then it was visa status / citizenship and not race-related?

What is obvious is a race divide but the motivation is employee salary and being able to threaten H1B workers with termination rather than it being about racial discrimination.

This article has nothing to do with the company OP is talking about, but is about the general H1B being abused issue.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/06/us/outsourcing-companies-dominate-h1b-visas.html?_r=0

"Under federal rules, employers like TCS, Infosys and Wipro that have large numbers of H-1B workers in the United States are required to declare that they will not displace American workers. But the companies are exempt from that requirement if the H-1B workers are paid at least $60,000 a year. H-1B workers at outsourcing firms often receive wages at or slightly above $60,000, below what skilled American technology professionals tend to earn, so those firms can offer services to American companies at a lower cost, undercutting American workers.

...

The vast majority of H-1B workers are from India.

The top outsourcing firms primarily bring temporary workers from India. American companies like Microsoft, Google and Apple have drawn from a wider range of countries, including China and Canada, for their H-1B workers. But in 2014, 70 percent of the H-1B visas went to workers from India, according to the Department of Homeland Security."

[madteaparty]

Aren't you glad the government is here to investigate such potential discrimination?

I hope your DH gets damages if termination was found to be wrongful!

Edited January 19, 2017 by madteaparty

[Janeway]

Here is an article. I am assuming posting the article will not make the company name searchable by google and attach to this thread.   http://www.reuters.com/article/us-oracle-usa-labor-idUSKBN1522O6

[Azalea]

What is obvious is a race divide but the motivation is employee salary and being able to threaten H1B workers with termination rather than it being about racial discrimination.

This article has nothing to do with the company OP is talking about, but is about the general H1B being abused issue.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/06/us/outsourcing-companies-dominate-h1b-visas.html?_r=0

"Under federal rules, employers like TCS, Infosys and Wipro that have large numbers of H-1B workers in the United States are required to declare that they will not displace American workers. But the companies are exempt from that requirement if the H-1B workers are paid at least $60,000 a year. H-1B workers at outsourcing firms often receive wages at or slightly above $60,000, below what skilled American technology professionals tend to earn, so those firms can offer services to American companies at a lower cost, undercutting American workers.

...

The vast majority of H-1B workers are from India.

The top outsourcing firms primarily bring temporary workers from India. American companies like Microsoft, Google and Apple have drawn from a wider range of countries, including China and Canada, for their H-1B workers. But in 2014, 70 percent of the H-1B visas went to workers from India, according to the Department of Homeland Security."

 

I wanted to expand on your point. The employers may actually pay the H1B visa holders the same as American born workers. However, the H1B holder will be deported if terminated so will do anything to hold on to their jobs. The visa is provided by the employer and unless the visa holder can get another employer to sponsor him/her for a visa they will have to leave the country. The tech firms were already sued by the government for colluding in hiring practices - there was even a class action settlement.

 

So the effect of this is that the employer has basically an indentured slave for 6 - 8 years who will work any number of hours to keep their job. 

[Janeway]

I wanted to expand on your point. The employers may actually pay the H1B visa holders the same as American born workers. However, the H1B holder will be deported if terminated so will do anything to hold on to their jobs. The visa is provided by the employer and unless the visa holder can get another employer to sponsor him/her for a visa they will have to leave the country. The tech firms were already sued by the government for colluding in hiring practices - there was even a class action settlement.

 

So the effect of this is that the employer has basically an indentured slave for 6 - 8 years who will work any number of hours to keep their job. 

 

I hope the government can get control of the situation to represent Americans rather than the rest of the world. I feel like the future is so bleak for my children. And the indentured slave stuff should be illegal. Why should my children go in to debt for college and work so hard, only to face a work environment where they have to work 60-80 hrs a week just to keep their jobs because wealthy CEOs can get away with it?

[Arcadia]

However, the H1B holder will be deported if terminated so will do anything to hold on to their jobs. The visa is provided by the employer and unless the visa holder can get another employer to sponsor him/her for a visa they will have to leave the country. The tech firms were already sued by the government for colluding in hiring practices - there was even a class action settlement.

A friend came to the states on H1B through one of the big outsourcing companies. He has worked in many MNC's IT dept as a vendor-on-site. So when one job ends, the outsourcing company just put him in any available job. At one time he had basic pay because there was no jobs back to back. Another time he just went out of state for a project for a few months while his wife and kid stay here because there was no in state jobs with vacancies. They have to file for their green cards themselves and he had to pay for some of the H1B costs to come here. For him, $60k annual (from the NYTimes article) would be double what he was earning back home. I do not know how much exactly he earned when he came over in 2005 but it was higher than $60k because his wife was complaining about pay mentioning numbers as she was house hunting for a single family home. A H1B holder who was retrenched can file for an extension to stay. We know a few who filed an extension successfully. They do not get deported, the government would rather they pay their own airfare back to Europe and Asia. They just become overstayers if they didn't file for extension.

 

My husband works in an extremely niche R&D subset area of nanotechnology. H1B is rare and employers would be at tech conferences with the aim of hiring R&D staff. Also headcount is low. His first employer paid all the legal expenses for our green cards since they have very few H1Bs. The legal cost all in was close to $20k for all of us and took about eight months. Many in his dept are Vietnamese boat people who came to the states when they were school age as refugees.

 

My husband's first employer was in a class action settlement for overtime pay. Every employee in that affected time period was awarded a few hundred dollars. The company was losing money during that time period and is still losing money every year. The unofficial reason it is still surviving is that it prevents another chip company from becoming a monopoly/antitrust case.

[goldberry]

That particular company, the CEO is one of the wealthiest people in the world. And he claims they need to have Visa employees because Americans are not qualified to do the jobs. The real story is that he gets away with getting rich off of underpaying Visa employees. He also routinely acquires other companies and then lays off the American employees and replaces them with Visa employees that he can take advantage of by underpaying them. 

 

I am consistently disgusted by these companies.  It proves the point though, that the "free market" will never regulate itself because of unrestrained greed.  The CEO's of these companies will never *voluntarily* put the interest of their workers or of the American people ahead of their dollar count.  THAT is the reason companies move to Mexico, hire undocumented workers, hire visa workers they can manipulate and underpay, etc.  It is ALWAYS going to be cheaper for them to do so, and only regulations that are enforced will stop it.

 

ETA, Janeway, you should consider editing your title though, as it isn't really about race but visa status. In our area, many in a certain group taking over jobs are on visa from Ukraine, etc - white men in other words.  Same situation though.

Edited January 19, 2017 by goldberry

[Frances]

I am consistently disgusted by these companies. It proves the point though, that the "free market" will never regulate itself because of unrestrained greed. The CEO's of these companies will never *voluntarily* put the interest of their workers or of the American people ahead of their dollar count. THAT is the reason companies move to Mexico, hire undocumented workers, hire visa workers they can manipulate and underpay, etc. It is ALWAYS going to be cheaper for them to do so, and only regulations that are enforced will stop it.

Exactly! It's also why they hire lots of temporary contract workers without benefits. I understand that some of these companies are under pressure from shareholders to maximize profits, but that again demonstrates why capitalism taken to the extreme will end very badly for the majority of people.

[Bluegoat]

I am consistently disgusted by these companies.  It proves the point though, that the "free market" will never regulate itself because of unrestrained greed.  The CEO's of these companies will never *voluntarily* put the interest of their workers or of the American people ahead of their dollar count.  THAT is the reason companies move to Mexico, hire undocumented workers, hire visa workers they can manipulate and underpay, etc.  It is ALWAYS going to be cheaper for them to do so, and only regulations that are enforced will stop it.

 

ETA, Janeway, you should consider editing your title though, as it isn't really about race but visa status. In our area, many in a certain group taking over jobs are on visa from Ukraine, etc - white men in other words.  Same situation though.

 

This is true, but I think its a common error that is understandable - race and class issues are so closely intertwined, they often are mislabeled any time there is a race divide, even if it really is a class thing.  It's important IMO to try and tease them out, OTOH, I think its also best to recognize that people don't always get the perfect wording.

[Azalea]

A friend came to the states on H1B through one of the big outsourcing companies. He has worked in many MNC's IT dept as a vendor-on-site. So when one job ends, the outsourcing company just put him in any available job. At one time he had basic pay because there was no jobs back to back. Another time he just went out of state for a project for a few months while his wife and kid stay here because there was no in state jobs with vacancies. They have to file for their green cards themselves and he had to pay for some of the H1B costs to come here. For him, $60k annual (from the NYTimes article) would be double what he was earning back home. I do not know how much exactly he earned when he came over in 2005 but it was higher than $60k because his wife was complaining about pay mentioning numbers as she was house hunting for a single family home. A H1B holder who was retrenched can file for an extension to stay. We know a few who filed an extension successfully. They do not get deported, the government would rather they pay their own airfare back to Europe and Asia. They just become overstayers if they didn't file for extension.

 

My husband works in an extremely niche R&D subset area of nanotechnology. H1B is rare and employers would be at tech conferences with the aim of hiring R&D staff. Also headcount is low. His first employer paid all the legal expenses for our green cards since they have very few H1Bs. The legal cost all in was close to $20k for all of us and took about eight months. Many in his dept are Vietnamese boat people who came to the states when they were school age as refugees.

 

My husband's first employer was in a class action settlement for overtime pay. Every employee in that affected time period was awarded a few hundred dollars. The company was losing money during that time period and is still losing money every year. The unofficial reason it is still surviving is that it prevents another chip company from becoming a monopoly/antitrust case.

 

Yes I did simplify a bit, and deport was definitely the wrong word. If you lose your visa you are expected to leave the country, do we agree on that? The employer controls whether or not you have an H1B visa do we agree on that? Of course once they are eligible for other ways of legally remaining in the country (green card), I agree they can jump through the hoops needed. But their current employer controls their LIVES while they hold the H1B visa. They have families, they may have bought a house in the community, their children are enrolled in schools, they have a car payment(s). They fear losing their visas, do we agree on that? I don't know, maybe my husband was lying about all the crying and screaming people during the last round of layoffs...

[Carol in Cal.]

Local scuttlebutt has supported these allegations for years.  The CEO of that company is the biggest jerk in the valley, and that is saying something.  I personally know excellent employees treated the same as your husband by that company, particularly after the Sun acquisition.

 

I hope the government wins this one.

 

Edited January 19, 2017 by Carol in Cal.

[Sneezyone]

Now I'm curious about the data they compiled re:pay inequities.

[prairiewindmomma]

Sneezyone--h1b salaries are reported to and collected by the government as part of the visa process. A number of places report the Labor Department's data. It's one of the ways that IT workers can leverage data in their own salary negotiations. ;) Here's an example: http://h1bdata.info

 

FWIW, Disney did the same thing with their IT staff; they laid off in house IT and hired a contract company that used H1B workers.

 

ETA: It appears that Disney has since partially reversed their position: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-disney-technology-h1b-20150617-story.html

SaveSave

Edited January 19, 2017 by kbeal

[Sneezyone]

Sneezyone--h1b salaries are reported to and collected by the government as part of the visa process. A number of places report the Labor Department's data. It's one of the ways that IT workers can leverage data in their own salary negotiations. ;) Here's an example: http://h1bdata.info

 

FWIW, Disney did the same thing with their IT staff; they laid off in house IT and hired a contract company that used H1B workers.

 

ETA: It appears that Disney has since partially reversed their position: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-disney-technology-h1b-20150617-story.html

 

Save

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Yes but how did they determine that white men were systematically being paid more? Presumably that means both H1b workers (men and women), US women and non-white males are making less. I'm curious about those disparities too and how they determined that. I didn't realize labor data was that granular (I.e. Down to the company level). Edited January 19, 2017 by Sneezyone

[Arcadia]

They fear losing their visas, do we agree on that? I don't know, maybe my husband was lying about all the crying and screaming people during the last round of layoffs...

 

My husband and I had worked for American MNCs that layoff people every quarter. My first job was with HP which did lots of layoffs. My friends were layoff from Microsoft, IBM and Applied Materials. A relative was layoff from Intel. None were H1Bs. However we have not worked for any MNCs that retrenched H1B while keeping citizens, usually H1Bs are retained or relocated. I have neighbors who worked for Sun Microsystems and many jumped ship to other nearby tech companies because of the frequent layoffs even before the acquisition. There are lots of musical chairs happening in the tech industry separate from the H1B abuse issue.

 

Some people do fear losing any kind of work visas. Many people we know filed for green cards themselves (https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/green-card-through-job/green-card-through-self-petition) because they don't want to rely on/wait for their employers to do so. Our social circles of H1B and L1 expats may just be different as many we know bought properties back in their home countries as retirement assets. Their kids have dual citizenships. A few German H1B expats has gone home after successfully getting a job back home. Some are still actively searching for jobs back home. A friend and his family who is coming to the states on H1B/H4 used to work in Germany as an expat and is willing to work in any major city in the world. His family is not intending to migrate here. The personal income tax filing for an expat with US citizenship is a big headache compared with being an expat holding other citizenship.

 

Yes but how did they determine that white men were systematically being paid more? Presumably that means both H1b workers (men and women), US women and non-white males are making less. I'm curious about those disparities too and how they determined that. I didn't realize labor data was that granular (I.e. Down to the company level).

At the company level, my previous employer splits staff into employees who work on Federal projects (e.g servers belonging to NASA) and those that work on non-Federal projects. They have to be prepared to submit details (race, gender, education, pay, years of experience) on the employees involved on Federal projects. So assuming you have a crew of service engineers maintaining the servers in shifts all holding the same job title, race is the easiest to compare data.

 

For example, I have a handful of engineers equally experienced and have been working in the same company on the same job since they graduated in the same year from the same college (hired during college job fair). Some are caucasians, some are American born Filipinos and some are asians who came to the states for college. Theoretically their pay should be nearly the same. As a project manager, I put in the same hourly time charge to the project account for all the engineers doing the same tasks, the night shift engineers do get a night shift allowance. I have no idea if their actual pay is nearly the same as these engineers were not on my direct payroll.

 

This is a recent discrimination case in my local news. The lawsuit would likely have the pay details.

"Ten UCSF information technology workers lodged discrimination claims this week with the California Department of Fair Employment and Housing, alleging they were laid off because they are too old and from the U.S. The workers are being replaced by young, male technicians from India, according to the UCSF employees.

...

The cuts amount to almost 20 percent of the IT staff. The university expects to save $30 million over the five-year contract with Indian employment firm HCL" http://www.mercurynews.com/2016/11/16/ucsf-employees-charge-discrimination-in-face-of-layoffs/

[Janeway]

https://qz.com/889524/the-us-says-oracle-is-encouraging-indians-to-hire-others-indians-and-its-killing-diversity/?utm_source=YPL

[Janeway]

I am consistently disgusted by these companies. It proves the point though, that the "free market" will never regulate itself because of unrestrained greed. The CEO's of these companies will never *voluntarily* put the interest of their workers or of the American people ahead of their dollar count. THAT is the reason companies move to Mexico, hire undocumented workers, hire visa workers they can manipulate and underpay, etc. It is ALWAYS going to be cheaper for them to do so, and only regulations that are enforced will stop it.

 

ETA, Janeway, you should consider editing your title though, as it isn't really about race but visa status. In our area, many in a certain group taking over jobs are on visa from Ukraine, etc - white men in other words. Same situation though.

I was going to try to re-title it. But I was unsure of the wording to use. But fact is, they are not just favoring visa employees but rather are specifically favoring the Asian Indian ones. My husband did not have a single employee he knew there on Visa from any other country.

[Arcadia]

https://qz.com/889524/the-us-says-oracle-is-encouraging-indians-to-hire-others-indians-and-its-killing-diversity/?utm_source=YPL

There is also this in March 2016

"The WTO said in a statement that India has disputed the doubling of the fees for H-1B and L-1 work visas and limits on their numbers. The visas are typically used by thousands of Indian nationals hired by information technology services firms operating in the United States.

...

In its filing, India said the new U.S. visa measures seemed inconsistent with the WTO commitments the United States had made, because the moves treat Indian IT workers in the United States less favorably than their American counterparts.

...

Its $150 billion outsourcing sector provides about three quarters of the country's annual revenue from the United States. The outsourcing companies send thousands of staff every year to work at client locations." http://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-united-states-visa-idUSKCN0W6165

[goldberry]

I was going to try to re-title it. But I was unsure of the wording to use. But fact is, they are not just favoring visa employees but rather are specifically favoring the Asian Indian ones. My husband did not have a single employee he knew there on Visa from any other country.

 

Oh okay.  That may be the case at that company but preference to visa employees because they can be exploited is a cross industry problem that needs to be addressed.  It's the situation of the visa that makes them vulnerable to exploitation (and thus preferred to American employees who want to get paid decently and can put up a fuss) rather than race in particular.

[goldberry]

In its filing, India said the new U.S. visa measures seemed inconsistent with the WTO commitments the United States had made, because the moves treat Indian IT workers in the United States less favorably than their American counterparts.

 

 

Whoa, wait a minute.  Did we actually agree to not give any preference to American workers or to limit the number of visas?  I could see that we could not single out one country to pick on, but in general don't we still maintain those rights?

 

Edited to clarify, not talking about after the people are already permitted here, but beforehand considering or limiting amounts, etc.

Edited January 20, 2017 by goldberry

[Arcadia]

Whoa, wait a minute. Did we actually agree to not give any preference to American workers or to limit the number of visas? I could see that we could not single out one country to pick on, but in general don't we still maintain those rights?.

India's nationals hold the highest number of H1B visas so they claim they were targeted by the fee hike. However the fee hike is for new H1B and L1 visas regardless of citizenship of the applicants. So an Asian Indian is not paying more than someone from another country.

 

"Referring to the visa issue, he spoke about “India’s concern over the hike in the H-1B and L1 visa fee, which is discriminatory and in effect is largely targeted at Indian IT companiesâ€.

Last year, the US Congress imposed a special fee of up to USD 4,500 on H-1B and L-1 visas — popular among Indian IT companies — to fund a 9/11 healthcare Act and biometric tracking system." http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/us-visa-fee-hike-discriminatory-targeted-at-indian-it-company-finance-minister-arun-jaitley/

 

Regarding the issues with H1B abuse cases, these are all related to India and there are likely more cases.

This is a H1B abuse case (Federal) involving Asian Indians being abused.

"Atul and Jay Nanda Used Their Corporation, Dibon Solutions in Carrollton, Texas, to Commit Fraud Through H-1B Visa Program to Create a Low-Cost Workforce

...

“This federal investigation uncovered Dibon’s deeply rooted conspiracy of maximizing its profits at all costs,†said Katrina W. Berger, special agent in charge of Homeland Security Investigations (HSI) Dallas. “These two brothers created a highly profitable, and highly illegal business model at the extreme expense of the alien workforce that they recruited. In addition, this same illegal business model operated at an unfair advantage to Dibon’s competition since it had a much lower operating overhead.

...

The Nandas required the H-1B visa candidates to pay the processing fees that the law requires to be paid by the company. The Nandas attempted to hide this, however, by having the H-1B candidates pay the fees directly to Dibon either with cash or a check written to “Dibon Training Center.â€

 

The three other defendants charged in the case, Siva Sugavanam, 37, Vivek Sharma, 48, and Rohit Mehra, 39, who each pleaded guilty before trial to one count of aiding and abetting visa fraud, were each sentenced earlier this month by Judge Lynn to two years’ probation.†https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndtx/pr/brothers-sentenced-visa-fraud-convictions

 

Another abuse case

"WASHINGTON: A 32-year-old Indian-origin immigration manager for an IT company has pleaded guilty for committing H-1B visa fraud in the US.

...

"Contrary to these representations and in violation of the H-1B programme, the conspirators paid the foreign workers only when they were placed at a third-party client who entered into a contract with SCM Data or MMC Systems," the Department of Justice said in a press release.

"The conspirators told the foreign workers who were not currently working that if they wanted to maintain their H-1B visa status, they would need to come up with what their gross wages would be in cash and give it to SCM Data and MMC Systems so the companies could issue payroll checks to the foreign workers." http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/nri/indian-pleads-guilty-for-h-1b-visa-fraud-in-us/articleshow/56033506.cms

https://www.justice.gov/usao-nj/pr/us-immigration-manager-information-technology-company-admits-obstruction-justice

 

This one is a visa fraud case

"Sunitha Guntipally, 43, of Fremont; her husband, Venkat Guntipally, 47, of Fremont; Pratap “Bob†Kondamoori, 54, of Incline Village, Nevada; and his sister, Sandhya Ramireddi, 56, of Pleasanton, were named in a 33-count indictment filed Thursday charging them with conspiracy to commit visa fraud, use of false documents, mail fraud, and other offenses." https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/3-bay-area-residents-and-nevada-man-charged-major-visa-fraud-scheme

[LucyStoner]

I was going to try to re-title it. But I was unsure of the wording to use. But fact is, they are not just favoring visa employees but rather are specifically favoring the Asian Indian ones. My husband did not have a single employee he knew there on Visa from any other country.

They aren't "favoring" H1B workers- they are using them and in many cases abusing them. It's about being cheaper and less able to leave their jobs. Most people wouldn't call being paid less for equal or even more (longer hours) work or being threatened with immigration matters to be a positive thing.

 

The H1B workers I know are highly skilled engineers and tend to earn about the same as American workers (if they didn't they could not afford to live as they do) but the companies they work for definitely benefit from not losing that talent every year or two to job switching. I have a friend whose company hires some H1B workers because they truly can not find fill all their positions with American applicants- the unemployment rate in their niche is about -10%.

[Arcadia]

I personally know excellent employees treated the same as your husband by that company, particularly after the Sun acquisition.

They are retrenching 450 from the Sun campus in today's news.

"...has decided to lay off certain of its employees in the hardware systems division.

...

Employees who were laid off were to receive full pay and benefits for 60 days"

http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/01/20/oracle-lays-off-450-employees/

[Carol in Cal.]

They aren't "favoring" H1B workers- they are using them and in many cases abusing them. It's about being cheaper and less able to leave their jobs.

But in so doing they are favoring their employment over that of American workers.  That was the original point, and it's accurate.

[Carol in Cal.]

They are retrenching 450 from the Sun campus in today's news.

"...has decided to lay off certain of its employees in the hardware systems division.

...

 

That's a lot of layoffs, and very publicly so.

I've been hearing a lot of scuttlebutt about quieter layoffs locally, particularly in defense contractors.  Or, 'you must move to Michigan or you're going to be let go' type moves. 

 

It's not as favorable a time to be looking for a tech job either.  Job growth in the area has gotten much more sluggish.

http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/01/20/bay-area-job-growth-slowest-years/

[LucyStoner]

But in so doing they are favoring their employment over that of American workers. That was the original point, and it's accurate.

Both the American (of all races and backgrounds) and H1B visa workers lose in these situations. There can be no reform with an "us vs. them" mindset. The title of this thread says it's about race. That's not actually the case. American is not a race. H1B visa holders is not a race.

Edited January 20, 2017 by LucyStoner

[maize]

I wonder what would happen if work visas were good for a certain number of years even if the employee leaves or loses the job that sponsored the visa and does not immediately get another? Seems that would remove some of the power employers hold over visa workers.

 

What if we made conversion to green cards easy and inexpensive after a couple of years in the country?

[Carol in Cal.]

I wonder what would happen if work visas were good for a certain number of years even if the employee leaves or loses the job that sponsored the visa and does not immediately get another? Seems that would remove some of the power employers hold over visa workers.

 

What if we made conversion to green cards easy and inexpensive after a couple of years in the country?

What if we didn't make it so easy to bring in foreign workers at a cheaper than market price to displace American ones?

And what if we actually enforced our age discrimination laws?

Those would be my priorities around here.

[maize]

What if we didn't make it so easy to bring in foreign workers at a cheaper than market price to displace American ones?

And what if we actually enforced our age discrimination laws?

Those would be my priorities around here.

I do not think it is productive to consider only the welfare of people who happen to have been born in the country I was born in. On the whole I believe that more freedom of movement and trade is beneficial to all.

 

I do think that there need to be regulations and restraints to prevent money grubbing and exploitation by wealthy capitalists and corporations; human nature being what it is we have to strike a balance between free market and social welfare. Age discrimination (and other discrimination) laws seem to me to fall in the realm of necessary regulation.

[Carol in Cal.]

I do not think it is productive to consider only the welfare of people who happen to have been born in the country I was born in. On the whole I believe that more freedom of movement and trade is beneficial to all.

 

I do think that there need to be regulations and restraints to prevent money grubbing and exploitation by wealthy capitalists and corporations; human nature being what it is we have to strike a balance between free market and social welfare. Age discrimination (and other discrimination) laws seem to me to fall in the realm of necessary regulation.

It IS however, productive to focus on the welfare of people who happen to be citizens of the country where they live and want to work.

[maize]

It IS however, productive to focus on the welfare of people who happen to be citizens of the country where they live and want to work.

Thing is, there isn't much economic evidence supporting protectionism, including labor market protectionism, as an overall positive for the welfare of the citizens of a country.

[Arcadia]

I wonder what would happen if work visas were good for a certain number of years even if the employee leaves or loses the job that sponsored the visa and does not immediately get another?

What if we made conversion to green cards easy and inexpensive after a couple of years in the country?

  

I do not think it is productive to consider only the welfare of people who happen to have been born in the country I was born in. On the whole I believe that more freedom of movement and trade is beneficial to all.

The problem with not tying a job to H1B visa is that which state organization is going to pick up the cost of WIC, Medicare and homelessness for the H1B family. We came to the states under H1B/H4 and the staff at WIC and subsidized rental housing says H1B pay is such that we would not be able to qualify for any welfare benefits because they are already having a long waiting list for subsidized rental housing. I think it takes 2 years of employment before a person can collect unemployment benefits here in California.

 

Like I said earlier, a friend was employed by one of the big outsourcing companies and sometimes doesn't have a job. His job could be done by a fresh graduate in IT, actually a fresh graduate from community college could have done his job. It was an entry level database administrator job. The team he work with was all the same race and they know they are doing a job that a local fresh graduate could do. However it is their dream to work here and then either stay here as long as they have a job or go back home and get an expat pay for having work overseas. So they are not going to reject that H1B visa and honestly their employer would hire someone else who is willing to come. This is an obvious abuse case but the big outsource companies have all lined someone's pockets. I had actually worked with three of those outsource companies on joint projects with the India govt back in the 90s, they are entrenched in money politics and it is hard to get a India govt project without a project partnership with one of them.

 

On the other hand, a friend came to the states on a H4, accompanying her husband who is a direct hire. She managed to get a job in R&D based on her prior job experience and her electrical engineering PhD from RPI. So she had her own H1B and later a green card and she is from a rural village in India.

 

My husband could apply for a green card easily and it is not expensive if done by an individual. However it depends on the category of PERM (permanent labor certification program) and green card. We know quite a few who did the EB1 category green card application themselves and got their green cards in 6 to 9 months, spending a few thousand dollars. My family's green card application was fully paid by his employer and took us around 2 months for confirmation and 8 months to received the green cards in the mail, the bulk being company legal fees rather than USCIS fees.

 

My friend who works for the outsource company is in an EB3 category and the waiting time for him getting a green card is long. He is not from India but it is still tough because the general queue has plenty of EB1 and EB2 applicants. (Explanation of EB1, EB2 and EB3 https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/immigrate/employment.html)

 

Below are the green card application fees (source https://www.uscis.gov/i-485):

Age 14 – 78 $1,140 (Form Fee) + $85 (Biometric Services Fee) = $1,225

Under 14 and filing with the I-485 application of at least one parent $750