Narcissistic MIL problems

[WoolC]

Deleted for privacy. Thank you all so much for your help!

Edited December 16, 2016 by WoolC

[Guest]

I don't have any advice but just want to say I'm so sorry and  :grouphug:. 

[MercyA]

I'm with texasmom...I'm not sure what to advise, but wanted to send  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug: . What a difficuIt situation! 

 

I'll be praying for you and your husband as you make decisions. "If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him."

[Ravin]

You are setting appropriate boundaries. When you cancel January, let her know it's based on information received since you offered to meet. You didn't change your minds arbitrarily.

 

Honoring your father and mother does not mean letting them abuse you.

[lllll]

nm

Edited February 4, 2017 by .qp_

[trulycrabby]

Aside from everything else, the heavy drinking and drug use would be a deal breaker unless she has a legitimate medical reason for excruciating pain.

 

Second deal breaker would be the severe anxiety she causes your dh.

 

I am sorry. :grouphug:

[Carol in Cal.]

I'm very sorry about this.  It sounds very hard.

 

So that you know, I generally lean toward contact, but toward limited contact and boundaries.

The way I see it, generally today we are too quick to turn away from people and set rules for them, and extended family is valuable and important.

 

But in this case, my inclination is different.  I'd probably have the meeting in January if she gave me enough notice of specifics to prepare DS for it, but I'd also say afterwards, look, we want to have a relationship with you, but you're sending us very mixed signals.  When you talk with us or visit us you're always angry or distant.  It feels like you think you SHOULD want a relationship but you really don't.  This is pretty hard on us, especially on the children.  Our job is to take care of them, and we'd like them to know and love you, but to do that they need to see you at your best, without the negative baggage of all this other stuff.  We think that the best way to do that is to have short, focussed visits from time to time, that we all work on keeping positive.  We love you, and we want to meet with you and a Christian therapist to figure out how to do those visits in a good way.  

 

Then leave that ball in her court.  My guess is that she won't contact you for a very long time, and when she does, she will ignore the therapist thing.  Then you can bring it up, not in a 'gotcha' way, but in a, "Wait, we asked you about meeting together with a therapist before our next get together.  Let's set a time to do that, it will be so good for us," kind of way.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

This is for two reasons.  One is her behavior has been really, really egregious.  Second is that you're a lot stronger when you're saying what you want rather than what you don't want--true with adults as well as kids.  My guess is that this will work better than saying 'not unless', because it's not telling her what to do, rather it's offering to do something good with her.  It's unlikely that you'll end up going to the therapist and resolving everything, but it IS possible, and if you don't, it's easier to put that ahead of actually getting together, which has the same effect as a cut off without being so much like a big fat bomb going off.

 

ETA:  To be clear, no boyfriend.  No drugs.  That's what the therapist is for.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Carol in Cal.

[Seasider]

I only read the first part of your text and these red flags jumped out---

 

1) she is addicted to technology which includes the capacity to take photos

 

2) she lives with a registered sex offender

 

Take the emotion out. Does contact between this person and your children seem at all logical?

 

She made her choice, you are free to make yours. Disengage and don't feel a bit bad about it unless she comes to you completely and demonstrably repentant.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think that you need to separate the issue of her having a relationship with the adults from having a relationship with the kids.

 

Boundaries for the adults: is she capable of meeting your dh ( with or without you ) without recriminations and blame? If not, then it is not a healthy situation.

 

Honestly, I would not allow a relationship with the kids unless she can manage one with your dh first. For one thing, I would not leave her alone with the kids and the kids don't need to see her treating your dh badly.

 

Her behaviors do sound very passive aggressive. But I don't think that telling her that she needs to accept responsibility for what she's done to the family is all that helpful. I say that because it is so vague. How exactly was she supposed to do that ? Apologize? Give you a list of what she's done so that you know she gets it?

 

Boundaries that I would put:

No boyfriend. ( which you already put)

No blame game

 

I think that it would be unfair to her to withdraw the January visit. But when it gets closer I would suggest that you meet at a neutral place (Starbucks ? A restaurant?) I know that you promised access to the children but I would explain that you want to see how a visit goes with just the adults first. Take photos of the kids with you and maybe some of their projects to show her.

 

As far as honoring her. You can honor her from afar. Is she elderly? Find out if there are genuine needs. You can give her grocery gift cards or gas gift cards or arrange for a handyman if those are genuine needs. Otherwise you can give her Christmas card type updates from time to time.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fairfarmhand]

Honor parents by living a Godly life, this doesn't mean that you have to even have a relationship with them.

 

Just live your life and don't bad mouth them. If it comes up in conversation, "We have a rocky relationship with them, despite our best efforts. We just try to protect our children and honor them by living a Godly life."

[Seasider]

Ok I read all the way through and now add that if I were you, I'd change my phone number or block her calls and never look back. The ball is in your court, don't give her the power to call the shots.

 

Echoing the recommendation that you read Townsend & Cloud's book, Boundaries.

[Alicia64]

I was raised by two narcisstic parents. That your dh is upset all day after speaking with her is not surprising at all. My own dh would say that I was a wreck after interacting w/ my two parents.

 

About four years ago, my narc. dad started verbally attacking my son (an absolute sunshine child) and that was it. I never went "no contact" with my parents for my own sake, but my crazy are not going to attack my children. So we haven't spoken since. It helps that we live 3,000 miles away. (And yes, when we moved six years ago, they were not happy.)

 

An aside: when I decided to homeschool when my kids were in Kindergarten, my dad wouldn't speak to me for a year. Dh had to take the kids to their home -- we were still in the same state then -- and I had alone time.

 

Re: your MIL "taking responsibily." It will never happen. Even if she breaks down one day crying and says, "I guess it is all me!" in a pity-party sort of way. Don't believe it. These people are incapable of taking responsibility for their incredibly hurtful behavior.

 

I'd recommend pulling out the January meeting because, yes, you're just getting pulled back into her ridiculous drama.

 

One of the best articles I've read: http://www.nextavenue.org/estranged-narcissistic-mom/

 

Feel free to PM me if you'd like more info.

 

Hugs to you and DH -- these types of people are brutal to deal with.

 

Alley

[WoolC]

Thank you all for your replies so far!  This has helped more than I ever thought possible; just hearing some fresh perspectives on the situation has got me thinking about things differently.

 

I'm very sorry about this.  It sounds very hard.

 

So that you know, I generally lean toward contact, but toward limited contact and boundaries.

The way I see it, generally today we are too quick to turn away from people and set rules for them, and extended family is valuable and important.

 

But in this case, my inclination is different.  I'd probably have the meeting in January if she gave me enough notice of specifics to prepare DS for it, but I'd also say afterwards, look, we want to have a relationship with you, but you're sending us very mixed signals.  When you talk with us or visit us you're always angry or distant.  It feels like you think you SHOULD want a relationship but you really don't.  This is pretty hard on us, especially on the children.  Our job is to take care of them, and we'd like them to know and love you, but to do that they need to see you at your best, without the negative baggage of all this other stuff.  We think that the best way to do that is to have short, focussed visits from time to time, that we all work on keeping positive.  We love you, and we want to meet with you and a Christian therapist to figure out how to do those visits in a good way.  

 

Then leave that ball in her court.  My guess is that she won't contact you for a very long time, and when she does, she will ignore the therapist thing.  Then you can bring it up, not in a 'gotcha' way, but in a, "Wait, we asked you about meeting together with a therapist before our next get together.  Let's set a time to do that, it will be so good for us," kind of way.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

This is for two reasons.  One is her behavior has been really, really egregious.  Second is that you're a lot stronger when you're saying what you want rather than what you don't want--true with adults as well as kids.  My guess is that this will work better than saying 'not unless', because it's not telling her what to do, rather it's offering to do something good with her.  It's unlikely that you'll end up going to the therapist and resolving everything, but it IS possible, and if you don't, it's easier to put that ahead of actually getting together, which has the same effect as a cut off without being so much like a big fat bomb going off.

 

ETA:  To be clear, no boyfriend.  No drugs.  That's what the therapist is for.

 

Thank you for this Carol, this sounds like a good middle ground to me.  We can still hold our boundaries but offer something positive to do with her.  We will do something like this!

 

I think that you need to separate the issue of her having a relationship with the adults from having a relationship with the kids.

Boundaries for the adults: is she capable of meeting your dh ( with or without you ) without recriminations and blame? If not, then it is not a healthy situation.

Honestly, I would not allow a relationship with the kids unless she can manage one with your dh first. For one thing, I would not leave her alone with the kids and the kids don't need to see her treating your dh badly.

Her behaviors do sound very passive aggressive. But I don't think that telling her that she needs to accept responsibility for what she's done to the family is all that helpful. I say that because it is so vague. How exactly was she supposed to do that ? Apologize? Give you a list of what she's done so that you know she gets it?

Boundaries that I would put:
No boyfriend. ( which you already put)
No blame game

I think that it would be unfair to her to withdraw the January visit. But when it gets closer I would suggest that you meet at a neutral place (Starbucks ? A restaurant?) I know that you promised access to the children but I would explain that you want to see how a visit goes with just the adults first. Take photos of the kids with you and maybe some of their projects to show her.

As far as honoring her. You can honor her from afar. Is she elderly? Find out if there are genuine needs. You can give her grocery gift cards or gas gift cards or arrange for a handyman if those are genuine needs. Otherwise you can give her Christmas card type updates from time to time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Jean, totally agree about no blame and no boyfriend being requirements.  The wish for her to accept responsibility is coming from a place of total frustration that every time we try to confront the situation we are met with justifications, excuses and blame shifting.  It just seems so simple to admit that having an affair is wrong, ignoring phone calls from your children every week is wrong, but she just can't do it.  I agree this wording is too vague and when we do talk to MIL we will use more specific language about actual steps we can take rather than asking her to accept responsibility.  Thank you!

 

ETA that MIL definitely would never be allowed to be alone with kids.  I've actually never allowed that prior to all of this, though she has never offered to keep them in the first place.

 

Edited December 16, 2016 by WoolC

[Alicia64]

 

 

I think that it would be unfair to her to withdraw the January visit. But when it gets closer I would suggest that you meet at a neutral place (Starbucks ? A restaurant?) I know that you promised access to the children but I would explain that you want to see how a visit goes with just the adults first. Take photos of the kids with you and maybe some of their projects to show her.

 

 

 

I don't agree at all.

 

What's unfair is DH having to grow up with an incredibly selfish crackpot for a mother.

 

"Fairness" is for decent, good people. If you're dealing with a rabid dog, you don't bring up the word "fair."

 

The MIL is not going to change. She is simply trying to wrap these good people in more awful silliness.

 

Alley

[gardenmom5]

yes – you are getting pulled back in.  Given that your dh is experiencing so much anxiety just hearing from her (not actually seeing her) – I would cancel the visit.  your dh can't care for his own family (which is a higher priority) if he's having a panic attack.  after a period of allowing him to heal (which can take longer than you might think) - you can reevaluate the level of contact.   you can also keep contact to the written word.  (or a phone call. maybe.)

 

I would never tell your aspie about a visit until just before.  I have a flaky relative would say she was coming – and my kids would get excited, then she wouldn’t show.

I would tell her you’ve been able to think it over, and until SHE behaves civilly, it’s not going to work to allow her to visit.  And yes – let her know what that would be.  

 

As a Christian – honoring your parent includes NOT allowing them to treat you like crap.  My grandmother had some type of personality disorder.  I spent a lot of time praying about this. my answer was essentially serious boundaries. (boundaries range from zero contact to controlled contact.)  I had never heard of boundaries or personality disorders - but that's what it was.  I had one 15 minute phone call a week as. long. as. she. was. civil.   not sure a phone call ever lasted that long.  one was three minutes, and only because I had a 20' corded phone and had to walk to the phone to hang it up.

 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2016 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

I agree, read boundaries.

I agree - she is NOT going to change, you have to change how you interact with her.   to enact boundaries - will tick her off.   everything is about her - you can't have a reasoned rational conversation.

 

I also agree - keep her away from your son until she can have a civil relationship with your dh - her own son.  no pictures.  don't tell her about your son - you don't want her deciding to show up places where he is at.

 

be pleased with yourself you are enacting boundaries, and recognizing this now.

Edited December 16, 2016 by gardenmom5

[Anne in CA]

Honestly, you are in a hard spot, but I will pray for you. I don't see the easy solution here.

[MercyA]

Okay, I’ve thought about this a bit more. I haven't read most of the previous posts yet, so forgive me if I've missed something!

 

For the sake of peace, I think I would ignore her actions that are jerky but less directly harmful, such as pulling out her laptop at family gatherings.

 

You can’t force her to take responsibility for things she has done in the past, so I would not make that a condition for her seeing your children.

 

If she behaves well toward your children, I would not forbid her from seeing her. I would keep the conditions short and sweet: she must make arrangements x weeks in advance, no boyfriend, no driving the kids anywhere.

 

If you told her she could have a visit in January, I would not back out now. When you have the visit, talk to her about how, going forward, you’ll need to plan well ahead every time for DS’s sake.

 

I think you can best honor her by simply being kind to her when you speak with her and see her. Remember that you can’t force her to change, so really the only option is to love her as best you can as she is, while setting limits to protect your children’s well-being. 

 

ETA: Regarding blaming your husband for things that are not his fault, I'd have a standard phrase ready, something like, "You know how we feel about that. Let's not have that discussion again." 

 

More  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug: .

Edited December 16, 2016 by MercyA

[G5052]

I went through this with my mother and now my sibling.

 

YOU set the boundaries. Trust me, they'll walk all over you no matter what you do. You can't play "nice." Some are just so nasty you can hardly deal with them, and some are passive-aggressive. If you do meet her in January, I'd do a public place and just adults if possible. Be prepared with a reason to cut it short.

 

With my mother I went no-contact multiple times because I'd be like your husband, so upset that I was a mess. I actually had to start therapy, it got so bad that was having anxiety attacks and couldn't sleep. 

 

My sibling is passive-aggressive, the type that will never tell you to your face but stick it to you in other significant ways. I communicate via email and call twice a year with an excuse ready to cut it short. I'm increasingly concerned that there are more mental health issues on top of the narcissism there.

 

I've honored my family members by treating them with respect and making sure that they're cared for, but I keep up a wall and don't let them close to me. In my mother's case, I intervened on her behalf multiples to make sure she was cared for when she failed physically and mentally and ensured that she was properly buried when she tied. My sibling has a progressive neurological condition, and when the time comes, I will make sure that he's properly cared for as well. 

Edited December 16, 2016 by G5052

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I'm with all the people who say that she should have zero access to your children, including even the receipt of photos, because she is choosing to be in a relationship with a sex offender. She shouldn't have any information about you, either, for the same reason.

 

And if she's not even totally in her right mind because of the drinking and drug abuse, you are gaining nothing from putting yourself through solo visits, either.

 

I'm sorry but I would not go see her in January, and I would not let her know the children while she is in this phase of extreme decisions and behavior.

 

Also, you don't owe her a reason. Anyone who would benefit from a recitation of the reasons, would already know that these red flags are reason enough. If she doesn't see it on her own, then you are not speaking to health and reason. You are speaking to addiction and other problems.

[amyx4]

I'm the one with the narcissist family. I kept putting longer and longer time between visits. It was helping me but it was making her more crazy. So, a couple of years ago, she just showed up a couple days after Christmas (we really did have a stomach bug on the 25th) with a car full of gifts for the kids and bunch of other relatives to visit us. She didn't call. It was overwhelming.

 

So she goes through this big show of being the most amazing grandparent in the whole world in front of the other relatives. She was the last to leave and on her way out she said all the typical stuff a narcissist mom says to their daughter with every intention to cause hurt and pain. 

 

That was the first time I ever spoke up. She's never been back. I don't miss the crazy towards my kids.

 

Your situation is different than mine. But it was important that I was the one who sent her away. Follow your husband's lead.  A little therapy is good too. 

[zoobie]

Your husband wants to cut contact. She is abusive to him and to you. She is married to a sex offender. Respect your husband's decision on this.

 

My advice would be NOT to give any reasons for canceling in January. "We are unable to meet you at this time." Giving reasons or expressing your feelings to a narcissist or BPD only gives them more fuel and ammunition for abuse.

 

I would leave it up to DH to decide if he wants to go complete no contact or continue receiving abuse via text/email. A narcissist at her stage in life is never going to change. If he's open to therapy, talking to someone and figuring out how to grieve the loss of a normal "mother" might be helpful. My DH saw someone a couple of times who basically told him that he wasn't the crazy one and it's okay to protect yourself. That was enough for him.

[treestarfae]

I wouldn't let her mental illness affect you personally. She needs a better diagnosis. I see narcissism a lot in bipolar but I'm sure it goes along with other problems. I would research it.

 

Unfotunately it's very difficult to manage mental illness at this level. I would just prepare for how you will deal with her for the rest of her life.

 

Have a plan for everyone and stick to it. Talk to the whole family about mental illness and how to deal with family members that have it.

 

See if you can set her up with a better doctor for diagnosis.

[WoolC]

Thank you all. I'll be reading all of these to my husband and we'll decide on a plan together. We will go forward with more boundaries and less guilt so thank you all. I'm deleting now for privacy and in attempt to move on and enjoy Christmas with the rest of the family this weekend.

[Carrie12345]

Didn't see the OP, but will offer  :grouphug: .  Holiday time as a relative of narcissists is just... well, yeah.

[MercyA]

Your husband wants to cut contact. She is abusive to him and to you. She is married to a sex offender. Respect your husband's decision on this.

 

I thought her husband was still undecided, but if this is the case, yes, I agree that the OP should respect his decision. 

 

OP, I hope you have a wonderful weekend.  :grouphug: