Critical sibling

[maize]

One of my older kids is constantly harping on a particular younger sibling. These kids are about five years apart, not next door siblings. The older is always finding a reason to criticize or correct the younger.

 

I've talked to this child many, many times about the issue, explaining how discouraging it is to anyone to be constantly critized. I remind them to stop every time I hear this start up. It has had no impact.

 

ADHD kiddo, forgets stuff and not super responsive to incentives. Does anyone have ideas about how I can help put an end to this behavior without making the child in question feel like I am doing exactly what I want them to stop doing--constantly correcting and criticizing?

[YaelAldrich]

When you find out, please let me know.  I have one who infected the other children.  Always harping on each other, ganging up to criticize, always negative.  I want to pull my hair out of my head!

[bolt.]

What do you usually do to eliminate undesired behaviour? What would you do if he suddenly developed the habit of beaching the alphabet as loudly as possible multiple times a day?

 

It's not about the sibling. It's not about empathy and ethics and good relationships.

 

Try simply labelling the behaviour in a semi-neutral way (maybe "unwelcome commentary"?) and correcting it consistantly in a focused way -- by whatever method usually works for him. (I have my own various techniques, but I never bring those to the table with kids who have diagnoses: parents usually know much better than I do.)

Edited November 1, 2016 by bolt.

[nd293]

I started to use the "THINK before you speak" approach.

 

Is it...

True?

Helpful?

Inspiring?

Necessary?

Kind?

 

Sometimes I'd force the older sibling to unpick what she said (because often the comment does fulfil a couple of those, seldom all). Sometimes I'd just use the phrase. I also saved a poster of the phrase as the wallpaper for my phone and I would just show her the screen when she started up.

 

It definitely did help, and we moved out of that phase. It was perhaps also a stage in her development? There's a 6 year gap between the two.

[sassenach]

Five years is the worst age gap! My own kids who are 5 years apart were always the most in conflict. I said a million times, "you are not the mom."

 

In my other pair, less than 2 years apart, we didn't have this issue until the older was around 10. He's a critical personality in general. He was the one getting nitpicked by his older sister, then he started nitpicking the younger sister.

 

I finally found that I just had to discipline the habit out of them. Consistent consequences. Go to your room, early bedtime, grounded from screens, loss of privilege (not all at once :-). I had to make it a big deal. Then they started to catch themselves.

[gardenmom5]

One of my older kids is constantly harping on a particular younger sibling. These kids are about five years apart, not next door siblings. The older is always finding a reason to criticize or correct the younger.

 

I've talked to this child many, many times about the issue, explaining how discouraging it is to anyone to be constantly critized. I remind them to stop every time I hear this start up. It has had no impact.

 

ADHD kiddo, forgets stuff and not super responsive to incentives. Does anyone have ideas about how I can help put an end to this behavior without making the child in question feel like I am doing exactly what I want them to stop doing--constantly correcting and criticizing?

 

have you discussed - two way conversation  - with this child why they have such an issue with their sibling? 

[maize]

have you discussed - two way conversation - with this child why they have such an issue with their sibling?

Yes, though truthfully they don't have the self-awareness to know themself what is really setting them off..

 

My perception based on what they say and what I see/hear is that it is a combination of rather rigid black/white thinking and a lack of social understanding/empathy/control. Often the younger child will say something that the older child thinks is dumb/incorrect, and the older child jumps on them with a correction. I've been trying to teach that it is not necessary or helpful to correct other people all the time, even when they are wrong. And that it is entirely normal for a younger person to know and understand less than an older person.

 

I have an older sister who used to do similar stuff to me; talking to her as an adult she has said that at that age she couldn't really conceive of someone thinking/experiencing things differently than she did. My perception is that I had a very different personality and somehow she perceived that as an affront--it bothered her profoundly and she was always trying to bring my behavior in line with the way she thought I ought to be.

 

I'm trying to think of a way to help the older child think through how they would feel if someone spoke to them the way they speak to the younger child--to consider primarily not the correctness of something they want to say but the potential impact on the person they are talking to.

Edited November 1, 2016 by maize

[gardenmom5]

My kids are  mostly adults.  two are completely established with their own homes.  they are all close, and they have fun together.  they even have fun with dudeling - in age appropriate things.  One lives far away - and they skype.   I've rarely had this.   and never on a long-term basis.

 

I always treated each kid like an individual and focused on their own strengths.  I wanted them  to feel loved for themselves.  if they were causing more problems - I tried to focus more positive attention on them.  kids will do what they have to do to get parental attention.  even if it's negative.

kids have their own feelings - and they deserve to be recognized. their feelings are real.  they don't' have to have warm fuzzies for sibling - but they still have to be polite.  they need to be listened to without censure - if you listen to them when young, they will talk to you when they're older.

I absolutely refused to ever have my kids feel they needed to compete with a sibling for my attention - I was raised with that and I consider it reprehensible. 

 

 

[Lecka]

I have Siblings Without Rivalry on my shelf and pulled it out.... I don't know if it has direct advice, but it is a good book.

[maize]

My kids are mostly adults. two are completely established with their own homes. they are all close, and they have fun together. they even have fun with dudeling - in age appropriate things. One lives far away - and they skype. I've rarely had this. and never on a long-term basis.

 

I always treated each kid like an individual and focused on their own strengths. I wanted them to feel loved for themselves. if they were causing more problems - I tried to focus more positive attention on them. kids will do what they have to do to get parental attention. even if it's negative.

kids have their own feelings - and they deserve to be recognized. their feelings are real. they don't' have to have warm fuzzies for sibling - but they still have to be polite. they need to be listened to without censure - if you listen to them when young, they will talk to you when they're older.

I absolutely refused to ever have my kids feel they needed to compete with a sibling for my attention - I was raised with that and I consider it reprehensible.

I don't think this about parental attention.

 

It is about a child trying to navigate their environment and relationships with limited maturity and understanding. Trying to make things--in this case another person--confirm to their internal vision of The Way Things Ought To Be.

 

It doesn't work, and both children end up frustrated and unhappy.

 

I'm convinced that learning to let other people be their own selves and live their own lives is among the most critical of life skills.

Edited November 1, 2016 by maize

[gardenmom5]

Yes, though truthfully they don't have the self-awareness to know themself what is really setting them off..

 

My perception based on what they say and what I see/hear is that it is a combination of rather rigid black/white thinking and a lack of social understanding/empathy/control. Often the younger child will say something that the older child thinks is dumb/incorrect, and the older child jumps on them with a correction. I've been trying to teach that it is not necessary or helpful to correct other people all the time, even when they are wrong. And that it is entirely normal for a younger person to know and understand less than an older person.

 

I have an older sister who used to do similar stuff to me; talking to her as an adult she has said that at that age she couldn't really conceive of someone thinking/experiencing things differently than she did. My perception is that I had a very different personality and somehow she perceived that as an affront--it bothered her profoundly and she was always trying to bring my behavior in line with the way she thought I ought to be.

 

I'm trying to think of a way to help the older child think through how they would feel if someone spoke to them the way they speak to the younger child--to consider primarily not the correctness of something they want to say but the potential impact on the person they are talking to.

 

have you talked with the older child about what they were like at this age?

you can also give some ideas of more superficial feelings - they may not know the words, but this helps them  learn.

 

have you worked on getting this child very different experiences outside their comfort zone? exposure to different people/ways' of thinking?

the differences which make up a whole. this translates to people.

in the world - we have deserts, rivers, oceans, ,mts. plains, etc. etc.  they make up a whole.  we need different ecosystems - and it makes life much more beautiful.

in society - we  have bakers, drs, transportation, etc. - they are all different - but we need them to make the whole.  having a mixture - makes society function.

 

you can do demonstrations with toys.  get a set that has multiple types of pieces -but only give ONE type of piece.  have them build something that  requires multiple types. as you go through this - explain all the things in the world that require multiple types of things just to function. 

 

I admit, I have a thing for wood and stone.  different woods and different stone - have patterns and colors that are unique.  individually, in mass quantities, they can be boring - but bring them together they can bring out the best in each piece and they "pop".

(an evergreen forest on a mountain side - has undulations and form from the mt..  it's not "flat".)

 

I was very black-white when younger.  for me, it was an aspie trait.  even when I tired not to - there really is a rigidity in thinking that is physical. It was like wrestling a tangible object.  Mine is genetic - and as I started doing things that supported overcoming the mutation, it got better.

 

my brother is still like this.  only stem matters to him, nothing else is important.  it makes for a very lopsided world.  

 

[MinivanMom]

Yes, though truthfully they don't have the self-awareness to know themself what is really setting them off..

 

My perception based on what they say and what I see/hear is that it is a combination of rather rigid black/white thinking and a lack of social understanding/empathy/control. Often the younger child will say something that the older child thinks is dumb/incorrect, and the older child jumps on them with a correction. I've been trying to teach that it is not necessary or helpful to correct other people all the time, even when they are wrong. And that it is entirely normal for a younger person to know and understand less than an older person.

 

I have an older sister who used to do similar stuff to me; talking to her as an adult she has said that at that age she couldn't really conceive of someone thinking/experiencing things differently than she did. My perception is that I had a very different personality and somehow she perceived that as an affront--it bothered her profoundly and she was always trying to bring my behavior in line with the way she thought I ought to be.

 

I'm trying to think of a way to help the older child think through how they would feel if someone spoke to them the way they speak to the younger child--to consider primarily not the correctness of something they want to say but the potential impact on the person they are talking to.

 

This is basically how I've handled it with my critical child. She has an older sibling she adores, so I usually frame it that way.

 

"How would you feel if older sibling spoke to you that way? How would you feel if she [told you that you were dumb, yelled at you when you made mistakes, criticized you constantly, etc]? Would it help you or would it hurt your feelings? Well, how do you think younger sibling feels when you speak to him that way? Are your words kind? Do you think your words help him or hurt his feelings? What could you do instead?" Then we talk about better and kinder ways to handle various interactions.

 

I have found that it has really helped to jump in every.single.time it happens, so I supervise these two siblings very, very closely when they play or interact. And I always pull the critical sibling aside for corrections so she isn't embarrassed in front of the other kids. These two children actually have very similarly rigid personalities. I think they will probably have a lot in common in the long run, but right now they just rub each other the wrong way. And critical sibling just hasn't fully developed the empathy or self-control to handle her irritation and impatience with him, though I have seen a lot of improvement over the last year. So I continue to supervise and correct, and I hope it's going to come out alright in the long run.

[gardenmom5]

 

Yes, though truthfully they don't have the self-awareness to know themself what is really setting them off..

 

if they are that lacking  in self-awareness (it is a development stage) to know themselves - I would question if they could even comprehend how they'd "feel" if someone was critical of them.  (and if someone was critical of them - would it even make an impression?  or would their response be "that person doesn't know what they're talking about"?)

 

you may need to come up with something completely different.

[Zinnia]

We are dealing with the same thing.  The child that is very critical is equally critical of himself, very black/white, and he can not fathom why anyone would not want his faults pointed out constantly.  He does not like any teaching that involves a line of questioning to enable the learner to "discover" the correct point himself, but if questioned, he would surely say, "If I was being that stupid, i would want to know.  Pointing it out is kindness."  **smacks head against a brick wall**  He is NT, but he definitely flirts with aspie characteristics off and on, and he can be very rigid in his thinking.

 

We've been focusing on this for the last month or so.  So far, we've noticed a big change with making it not-allowed, I don't care your good reasons, just not allowed to critique a sibling, full stop.  And then, we have pointed out every.single.instance that we hear (which is a lot).  This has helped reduce it by about half in the last month, which is big and notable. 

 

I am not sure how to get it to completely stop, though, so I'm following along.  I will probably have to go with removing privileges for continuing to break the rule of non-critique.  

 

 

Edited November 1, 2016 by Zinnia

[Pam in CT]

re self-awareness, empathy and self-control...

 

Yes, though truthfully they don't have the self-awareness to know themself what is really setting them off..

My perception based on what they say and what I see/hear is that it is a combination of rather rigid black/white thinking and a lack of social understanding/empathy/control. Often the younger child will say something that the older child thinks is dumb/incorrect, and the older child jumps on them with a correction. I've been trying to teach that it is not necessary or helpful to correct other people all the time, even when they are wrong. And that it is entirely normal for a younger person to know and understand less than an older person.
....

 

 

My middle and youngest (4 years apart) used to have some of this dynamic going on.  The middle one was a, um, late bloomer on self-awareness, empathy and self-control while the younger was (has always been) something of a thought leader/change agent/model of maturity within the family on such qualities.

 

I tried various strategies, but honestly what got them over the hump was getting the younger one equipped with some tools with which she could push back on the behavior (i.e., "Dude. Knock.it.off; I don't talk to *you* that way and you don't get to talk to *me* that way either...No, I do NOT want to keep on playing RISK with you, because, who needs that kind of nonsense...").  Which is a wholly unreasonable burden to put on the younger... but that is, indeed, what ultimately shut down the dynamic between them.  She was 8-9 ish by then. 

[Pawz4me]

I don't have any helpful advice, but just wanted to chime in and say we've dealt with it, too. Oldest DS seems constitutionally unable to accept the fact that his younger brother isn't a carbon copy of himself (and doesn't want to be!). FWIW, he (oldest DS) is neurotypical. The only place this rigid thinking attitude seems to manifest itself is regarding his brother. Youngest is an Aspie but not at all inclined to rigid thinking.

[katilac]

I learned this method on this very board years ago for a slightly different issue (complaining, maybe?). 

 

Make a rule for the kids, "no criticism, discouragement, or negative words allowed." 

 

Fill a clear jar with a dozen of something they value, like quarters, miniature candy, small toys. Keep it in their presence (in the school area during the day, dining room table for supper, living room in the evening). 

 

Each time anyone says something negative, remove one item from their jar, without discussion.  At the end of the day, they get to keep whatever is left, and the jar gets refilled the next day. 

 

After a few days, you might decide that instances of true and genuine encouragement get an item added to the jar. 

 

Do not allow questioning or argument at the time you remove an item. If they persist, tell them it will result in another item being removed. Explanations can be given at a set time of day, either when you dole out the items or when you are filling the jars the next day. Very rarely do they truly need an explanation, of course! 

 

Start the experiment with a discussion about encouraging vs discouraging words, criticism, and so forth, but also explain to them that they are expected to figure out things on their own - "you didn't tell me not to say that!" is not an excuse. 

 

We wound up using this more than once, it's a quick way to focus on a specific behavior. When they get pretty close to a full jar at the end of the day, you can offer a bonus for the first time they earn a completely full jar. 

 

I think we did it for a couple of weeks at a time max. The point was to focus on a specific behavior and break bad habits. It also takes away the excuse that they can't do it, or don't understand, etc.  

 

By the way, I would do this for ALL of the kids, not just the one with a strong tendency to criticize. Seeing siblings with a pile of money or candy can motivate the most stubborn of children. 

[Katy]

I'd do something like say, "It is absolutely not okay to talk to anyone with that much disrespect.  Time out corner, now!"

 

Then when it was time to come back I would probably have them read the parable about the stick in their eye.  Then apologize, and say three things that they admired about that sibling.

 

If we had to repeat this more than once per day they would also have to find a way to serve their sibling - give or make them a present, help them with a project, play whatever game she wanted to play, etc.

[MinivanMom]

We are dealing with the same thing.  The child that is very critical is equally critical of himself, very black/white, and he can not fathom why anyone would not want his faults pointed out constantly.  He does not like any teaching that involves a line of questioning to enable the learner to "discover" the correct point himself, but if questioned, he would surely say, "If I was being that stupid, i would want to know.  Pointing it out is kindness."  **smacks head against a brick wall**  He is NT, but he definitely flirts with aspie characteristics off and on, and he can be very rigid in his thinking.

 

*snip*

 

My critical child is also a perfectionist who is very critical of herself. It has become something of a mantra for me to say to her, "Please don't talk about my daughter that way. I love her so much and don't like to hear people criticize her," when I catch her at it - which she seems to think is a very funny response. But, yeah, she has a tendency to mutter very harsh criticisms *to herself* when she doesn't do things perfectly and thinks nobody is close enough to overhear her.

 

However, she is also very, very sensitive to other people criticizing her or correcting her so the empathy questioning has been very effective with her. I can't imagine punishing her for doing it, because I don't think it comes from a place of anger or disobedience; she just needs more time to develop empathy for herself and others. And that is very much a big picture parenting goal that will take time and consistency.

[HS Mom in NC]

Instituting consequences for your older child is necessary and justified.  It's not oldest child's place to criticize and correct a sibling. Criticism isn't the appropriate method for dealing with ADHD anyway so it's like malpractice: someone unqualified to diagnose and treat a medical problem taking it on themselves to administer the wrong treatment.  Kids don't have the life experience or authority to take on that parental role.  It's your job to correct that wrong behavior in your oldest child.  If words to correct don't work, it's time use something other than words.

[J-rap]

We've run into a little of that.  The older is so very, very different.  The only structure he can see for relationships or anything really is logic-based.  So saying things like, "That hurts her feelings" means nothing.  It's not that older is a bad person or knowingly unkind, it's just a very different brain and view of the world and situations.  

 

I first need to acknowledge his views, and then I try and explain her interpretation.  Acknowledging his first makes all the difference.  

[maize]

Instituting consequences for your older child is necessary and justified. It's not oldest child's place to criticize and correct a sibling. Criticism isn't the appropriate method for dealing with ADHD anyway so it's like malpractice: someone unqualified to diagnose and treat a medical problem taking it on themselves to administer the wrong treatment. Kids don't have the life experience or authority to take on that parental role. It's your job to correct that wrong behavior in your oldest child. If words to correct don't work, it's time use something other than words.

The older child has ADHD.

 

Which in his case makes consequences almost entirely ineffective. Consequences don't work with a kid who doesn't have the executive function to think "if I do x, y will happen" before acting.

 

I really think building empathy is the tact I need to take, I'm just not sure how.

 

I was an ADHD kid; I was consequenced left and right and none of it ever made an impact.

[Katy]

The older child has ADHD.

 

Which in his case makes consequences almost entirely ineffective. Consequences don't work with a kid who doesn't have the executive function to think "if I do x, y will happen" before acting.

 

I really think building empathy is the tact I need to take, I'm just not sure how.

 

I was an ADHD kid; I was consequenced left and right and none of it ever made an impact.

 

This empathy thing is why I suggested the consequence include an apology, 3 compliments, and an act of service on the insulted child's behalf.  At the very least it will help the older child start to appreciate the good things about the younger child, and think about the power their words might have over them.  I am ADHD, I was like this with my little sister, and she didn't forgive me until she had kids.  My critical attitude was normal for that age split, but not healthy.  We were well into adulthood before we liked each other.  Sure we loved each other, but like was another thing.  It took a tragedy and her going out of her way for me to start to see her in another light.  Respect could have been encouraged from a young age.

[Pam in CT]

The older child has ADHD.

 

Which in his case makes consequences almost entirely ineffective. Consequences don't work with a kid who doesn't have the executive function to think "if I do x, y will happen" before acting.

 

I really think building empathy is the tact I need to take, I'm just not sure how.

 

I was an ADHD kid; I was consequenced left and right and none of it ever made an impact.

 

 

:lol: 

 

 

 

And the evidence is pretty compelling, that somewhere along the way you managed to learn empathy.  When do you place that transition in yourself? Were there specific precipitating events or experiences or people you encountered that were important to the transition?

[katilac]

The older child has ADHD.

 

Which in his case makes consequences almost entirely ineffective. Consequences don't work with a kid who doesn't have the executive function to think "if I do x, y will happen" before acting.

 

I really think building empathy is the tact I need to take, I'm just not sure how.

 

I was an ADHD kid; I was consequenced left and right and none of it ever made an impact.

 

I think Katy has some really good points, though. Long term, yes, you want to build empathy. Her ideas about positive statements and acts of service will add to that, while also showing the sibling that it matters and something is being done about it. 

 

I don't really think of those as consequences, really, but I do think that sometimes the consequences are for the other kid. And I'd explain it to him that way: Even when we don't mean to do something, or can't help it, we still have to try to make it up to the other person. "Consequence" is not intended as a punishment for you, but as a means of respect for your sibling. 

[kitten18]

The older child has ADHD.

 

Which in his case makes consequences almost entirely ineffective. Consequences don't work with a kid who doesn't have the executive function to think "if I do x, y will happen" before acting.

 

I really think building empathy is the tact I need to take, I'm just not sure how.

 

I was an ADHD kid; I was consequenced left and right and none of it ever made an impact.

I'm just curious how old the older one is.

[maize]

I'm just curious how old the older one is.

11

[meena]

One of my older children (who is ADHD, very black/white) does this to a younger (very sensitive and emotional) sibling. What has worked the best is that when I hear older child criticizing I tell him to stop, apologize, and then restate his thought in a way that's not critical. I usually have to model that statement for him, which he then repeats.

 

We've done this enough that often times I can just say stop and he goes ahead and apologizes and restates on his own. I'm hoping he'll eventually get to the point where he's able to stop himself when, or even before, he starts to speak critically.

[eternalsummer]

I think possibly you are dealing with different philosophies: to your older kid, "only faulting faults is faultless" (from the Tao Te Ching).  Now, faulting faults may not be acceptable in your family culture, so you have two competing philosophies.  You can probably incentivize (or disincentivize) the older kid from behaving this way, but that will not likely change his way of thinking.  

 

What may change his way of thinking is getting at the root of why he critizes - does he think the younger child in these instances is wrong and therefore must be corrected?  What is the point of the correction?  could he be convinced that the point of faulting faults is to reduce fault?

 

If you can convince him that his constant correcting does not reduce the faults of his younger sibling (either because it is not his place to correct, or because of this or that other reason, as long as the reason is empirically valid/correct), then he might be willing to change the behavior on his own because he can see it doesn't fit with what he perceives to be right.

[kitten18]

11

Not that it makes it better but I saw this so much when I taught middle school, 11-13 seemed to be the worst ages (I taught high school too).

I don't have any great advice but I like Meena's suggestions.

I like the Nurtured Heart for my ADHD kid, they have a moderately active FB group.

[Momandcoolaunt]

My husband, daughter, and I temporarily live with his father who is the guardian of his niece (my husband’s sister’s daughter) also the cousin of our daughter. They are 6-7 years apart and live like siblings, I suppose. We don’t have the authority to discipline the oldest kid (R) and the youngest kid (K) is just old enough to understand right from wrong.

Ever since we moved in, R has been difficult. She won’t listen to me, bullies K, and gets even worse with grandma. Since I studied psychology in school, I always ask her why she acts the way she does. Often she will say ‘I don’t know’ or admits she gets away with everything. She only stops stuff if she gets spanked or popped in the mouth for talking back, raising voice, breaking things, etc. R is 9 years old, and it really concerns me that she continues to disobey grandparents and all of us adults because she knows she can get away with it.
 

I will correct her or explain why certain behavior is not okay. I only get more involved when R directs behavior toward our daughter K, who is under the age of 2. First I noticed R creating roles in pretend play where K is a peasant, dumb, or homeless troll type character. Of course R is queen, higher-than, the most powerful and smart character. K doesn’t seem to feel bad but I do notice her push R away if she’s physically teasing her. K is also very good at saying ‘no’ now. So there is the hierarchical system R has created, and this extends into territory, toys, shared experiences, etc.

K has to stay in her corner with her toys because R does not know, or rather, want to share. If our daughter K has something, R has to feel special too. I have tried to teach her to be happy for others and not covet, but it seems like this is ingrained in her personality now.

My husband and I will move out soon, but not soon enough. He was raised differently by his father (R’s grandpa), so he does not agree with how R gets away with everything. Granted, they’re older and grandparents now. We’ve voiced the disrespect coming from R; on K’s birthday they refused to come and kicked us out for saying anything bad about R’s behavior. Any advice?
 

Gentle parenting has not worked for R. No amount of sitting and talking, listening, time-out, reward and consequences works. It’s sad to say but only a noticeable decrease in disrespect comes after spanking. Yes, it scares a child to correct their misbehavior. But Grandma and I always make time for communication, and yet, R disrespects us the most. From what I know, she’s only been spanked a handful of times in her life. What to do?