A question if you put your child(ren) in Sunday School... The letter post #63

[Reefgazer]

Sounds like they have trouble getting volunteers, and this is a scheme to get parents to help with Sunday School.

[FloridaLisa]

Well, it comes down to whether you want to make this work. You've said this is really the only choice for a church that you have right now. It's different than anything I'm used to, but I don't think it's such an outrageous rule that I wouldn't be willing to work with it.

 

For several reasons: your kids will be getting weekly Bible teaching which looks like is something you want for them as you didn't have it as a child and you stated that you're a bit nervous to tackle. (I actually think ya'll should tackle this together. Just explore and dig and grow together. There are so many excellent resources that you would walk y'all through this)

 

Secondly, you and dh wouldn't be shut out of adult teaching altogether since you have a weekly church service. 

 

Finally, it may change. If this is a new policy, it's likely it won't always be the policy. Your children will grow, they may want to go to an adult class with you; new leadership may make a different rule.

 

But for now, if this is the only church available to you and you feel it's got solid, Biblical teaching and you want that, I'd make it work and celebrate it rather than head out for breakfast. I worked in plenty of my dc's SS classes when they were younger without my own adult SS class and between that, the church service, and Bible study at home or with a group of women I was well-fed and able to grow spiritually. 

 

I wouldn't be a deal breaker for me under the circumstances you've outlined. :) 

[mom2scouts]

This is just so odd, I don't know how it would work. Even if they split it into three groups, I had preschoolers, elementary, and high schoolers all at once. Even if dh is there, we can't be three places at once. Our church has multiple worship services to allow teens and adults to attend a Sunday school class and a worship service while their children are all in age appropriate classes. This model means that adults won't get Bible studies/Sunday School except in children's classes.

 

I do understand wanting to get parents more involved in religious education of their children, but our church has found other ways to promote this. Once a month there's a fun family friendly program on Sunday nights and we also periodically have first grade and up attend worship service with their families instead of having Sunday School that day. They also  line up the children's Sunday School lesson with the Bible verses that are used for the sermon during the service. That allows the whole family to be studying the same part of the Bible to facilitate discussion at home.

 

To the pastor's wife who mentioned "drive-by Sunday Schooling", please don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I was a child of non-Christian parents who decided we should at least know something about religion and decide for ourselves. They dropped up off at the door of the church each week from the time I was 4 or 5, but my parents *never* set foot inside the building. I made the decision to be baptized when I was 12 and still attend church today. 

Edited September 10, 2016 by mom2scouts

[Sahamamama]

I would be concerned about why your church suddenly feels it is necessary to do this. The leadership may sincerely want to foster family learning, but there may be another reason that is being hidden behind the nice-sounding language. Then again...

[SamanthaCarter]

This is weird. I've never heard of this approach before. If they wanted more family integration, they need to do it outside of the Sunday school hour. This is just asking for chaos and for people to quit coming to Sunday school! Family integration also means that the parents need to "apply their oxygen masks first." Asking parents to forgo their own adult christian education classes is wrong. It shows a real lack of support for parents. 

 

An alternative might be to have a Wednesday evening study where parents and children are studying the same thing and have a family worship type guide for that week's homework. Families could earn points as a team or have some kind of fun scheme for encouraging family bible study. 

 

Edited September 8, 2016 by SamanthaCarter

[3 ladybugs]

I looked more into it yesterday. It seems that it is a movement (like what was said on here) and that it isn't just Sunday School. There are whole services that do this. So you have a child "John" and John doesn't want to stay with mommy or daddy. John wants to explore. He is 3. So John's parents are encouraged to let John explore during services. If he wants to go to the Pastor, let him. If he wants to go to the Alter, let him. This is what I was reading yesterday. :yikes: Oh and I also read that "children behave better when they are with their parents" as a reason for this. I was a nanny before I became a mom, I have yet to see a child that that is true for. 

 

I am really hoping that this isn't part of something bigger they are wanting. I am also hoping that this doesn't discourage people from going to church. The pastor or secretary put up a Facebook post on the church's account yesterday talking about the changes to Sunday School. That told us where to go. So at least I know this isn't just us. They are putting the adults into a smaller room that will never hold all the people that typically go to adult bible study. We (with a preschooler and a Elementary student) are suppose to go to the room where the adult study is normally. So I guess they know that adults are getting the short end of the stick. I actually feel bad for the adults that are left, that room doesn't even have a window!  I just looked and only one person has liked the post. So I am not sure how to take that. The other posts on the page have 5-7 likes. 

 

I have told my husband that we should go there on Sunday and at least try. He doesn't want to but I feel we really should. I will report back what I learn. 

[bolt.]

I think I'd lean towards rebellion on this one. In my imagination, I'd try to send him to class as usual, and give a polite piece of my mind to anyone who objected:

 

Me: Bye bye son!

Worker: We're asking parents to stay now.

Me, cheerfully: Oh, no thanks.

Worker: No, I mean you have to stay.

Me: Really? Don't you offer sunday school for the children? I heard about some changes.

Worker: Yes, changes. Parents need to stay.

Me: So there isn't any ministry available for unaccompanied kids? Sunday school is only for kids whose parents will come?

Worker: Um, yes.

Me: So, you aren't offering any ministry for my son this morning?

Worker: Yes, with you!

Me: No, I said I'm not interested, and you said that means my son can't come to your class.

Worker: The class is for both of you.

Me: But I told you, no thanks. I don't want to attend this class. I have other plans. This class doesn't interest me. It interests my son.

Worker: But it's a parent-child class.

Me: And that's all you are offering this morning?

Worker: Yes.

Me: I'll check back next week to see if there's any class available for my son then. Have a nice week.

Worker: But!

Me: Sorry son, there's no kids' class today. Do you want to come to the adult class with me, or shall we get a glass of water and hang out until the service starts?

Son: Aw! No class!

Worker: But!

Me: Have a nice week!

[SKL]

I think I'd lean towards rebellion on this one. In my imagination, I'd try to send him to class as usual, and give a polite piece of my mind to anyone who objected:

 

Me: Bye bye son!

Worker: We're asking parents to stay now.

Me, cheerfully: Oh, no thanks.

Worker: No, I mean you have to stay.

Me: Really? Don't you offer sunday school for the children? I heard about some changes.

Worker: Yes, changes. Parents need to stay.

Me: So there isn't any ministry available for unaccompanied kids? Sunday school is only for kids whose parents will come?

Worker: Um, yes.

Me: So, you aren't offering any ministry for my son this morning?

Worker: Yes, with you!

Me: No, I said I'm not interested, and you said that means my son can't come to your class.

Worker: The class is for both of you.

Me: But I told you, no thanks. I don't want to attend this class. I have other plans. This class doesn't interest me. It interests my son.

Worker: But it's a parent-child class.

Me: And that's all you are offering this morning?

Worker: Yes.

Me: I'll check back next week to see if there's any class available for my son then. Have a nice week.

Worker: But!

Me: Sorry son, there's no kids' class today. Do you want to come to the adult class with me, or shall we get a glass of water and hang out until the service starts?

Son: Aw! No class!

Worker: But!

Me: Have a nice week!

 

And I'd add, chirpily "maybe this is a good time to try out [other church]'s Sunday School."

 

[Ellie]

To the pastor's wife who mentioned "drive-by Sunday Schooling", please don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I was a child of non-Christian parents who decided we should at least know something about religion and decide for ourselves. They dropped up off at the door of the church each week from the time I was 4 or 5, but *never* set foot inside the building. I made the decision to be baptized when I was 12 and still attend church today. 

 

:iagree:

[bethben]

With our family, we tend not to have our kids get involved in children's church mostly because we don't want to feel obligated to have to lead/ help in children's church.   We have a ds with special needs who has to follow us everywhere and needs constant supervision.  I don't have the brain power to try to keep ds happy and teach a roomful of children also.  If we had a church that required us to be a part of our children's Sunday School, we would be dropping Sunday School.  

[HS Mom in NC]

 Families could earn points as a team or have some kind of fun scheme for encouraging family bible study. 

 

No, schemes don't belong in anything related to bible study.  Sorry, if that happened we'd have a meeting with the leadership like when we did when the pastor I mentioned upthread announced publicly that they would give points to kids for attending youth group activities and only kids who had earned enough by attending most of the activities would get to go to camp.  We pointed out how outrageously unbiblical that was at a church with grace based teachings, how kids who couldn't attend regularly might respond to that, the problematic nature of exclusion, etc.  He ended it immediately and some parents (regular attenders) complained.  I guess some people need everyone to see their gold stars on the chart.

 

If parents need schemes to motivate them it's because that have a serious void in their own spiritual situation.  Schemes won't address that and won't keep it going for the long haul.

[Terabith]

I would just call the pastor and ask if he has really thought this through.

[3 ladybugs]

The letter from the pastor started with Deuteronomy 6:6-8 then said:

 

"There is nothing of greater importance then passing on the faith to our children. Moses reminded God's people in the passage above to take every opportunity to do just that. But more then that, the passage teaches us that Christian education is to be home-centered, church supported. That's right, the primary responsibility for faith formation resides with the parents. That leaves the church in a supportive role.

 

We at (church name) have always taken the responsibility of teaching God's Word and faith formation as central. But perhaps in the past we have slipped into a model in which faith formation is church-centered, home-supported. Recognizing this reversal of priorities, we are hoping to change some things. 

 

(name) and I have been talking a lot about this subject in the past year. We have talked with our congregational leaders, Sunday School teachers, and parents. We have consulted with our NJ District Education staff and even visited a local church that models this approach. All of these discussions have proven helpful and have led us to make a move toward being more home-centered, church supported in our faith formation efforts. 

 

But the key to this is you, for you are the home!

 

So here is what we, with your blessing and participation would like to do:

 

1. Offer Sunday School classes on three levels; Pre-school, Kindergarten/Elementary, and Jr. and Sr. High (Confirmation age through HS). 

2. Have at least one parent (or grandparent) attend with each child. Learning will be inter-generational as parents and their children learn the Bible stories together and apply them to their everyday lives.

3. Continue learning and application at home with brief take-home activities. And, because parent and child experience the lesson together, discussions, learning, and application begun in class can continue throughout the week.

4. Allow parents or adults to volunteer to be "mentor parents" for those children whose parents cannot or choose not to attend. Every child is welcome and encouraged to participate even if they cannot be accompanied by a parent.

 

We hope that you can see the exciting potential this model has and are eager to participate. We plan to start this home-centered, church supported Sunday School on Sunday September 11 at 9:15 am. 

 

We would love to get your feedback and full participation. If you have any questions please call (name) or Pastor (name). 

 

And please pray for God's blessing as we start this new venture."

Edited September 9, 2016 by 3 ladybugs

[Farrar]

This is an interesting thread. One of my best experiences as a kid in church was attending a family Sunday School class. The class had big goals beyond just Sunday School (it was an effort at racial integration in church communities as well... families were invited to participate and each group was purposefully diverse in a variety of ways - single adults, single parents, married families with kids, kids different ages, elders, etc. as well as black and white families). The programming or curriculum was meant to address everyone's needs and spiritual development. We ate a potluck breakfast together every week to start things off before doing an hour of discussion and activities. Let's just say it was an incredibly positive experience for me as a young teen.

 

Obviously this is totally, totally different... but I was just thinking how there are other ways to do "family centered Sunday School" than to force the parents to sit through a children's lesson or to be overstaffed support for the children's curriculum.

[SKL]

After reading the announcement, I have some thoughts.

 

1.  How is that "home centered"?

 

2.  How is it helpful to have a "mentor parent"?  To me it feels like that undermines the actual parents.  Like "poor you, your parents are neglecting you, let us help make up for it."  Not only for wee kids who might actually need assistance, but all the way up to high school ???  I actually find that offensive.  Like when someone offers to walk my perfectly capable school child down the sidewalk.  No.

 

3.  IMO home centered spirituality is built from the parents' hearts, not from whatever the Sunday School curriculum says.  IMO the suggested model is limiting.

 

4.  Even if I do sit through a class with my kid (like at scouts, museum events, etc.), that does not mean I go home and re-hash the lesson for the rest of the week.

 

5.  As already covered, there seems to be nothing for the parents' spiritual growth.

 

6.  This model bears zero resemblance to the models that the Bible shows.

Edited September 9, 2016 by SKL

[HS Mom in NC]

This is an interesting thread. One of my best experiences as a kid in church was attending a family Sunday School class. The class had big goals beyond just Sunday School (it was an effort at racial integration in church communities as well... families were invited to participate and each group was purposefully diverse in a variety of ways - single adults, single parents, married families with kids, kids different ages, elders, etc. as well as black and white families). The programming or curriculum was meant to address everyone's needs and spiritual development. We ate a potluck breakfast together every week to start things off before doing an hour of discussion and activities. Let's just say it was an incredibly positive experience for me as a young teen.

 

Obviously this is totally, totally different... but I was just thinking how there are other ways to do "family centered Sunday School" than to force the parents to sit through a children's lesson or to be overstaffed support for the children's curriculum.

 

Yes.

 

At a church I went to the teen/adult Sunday School/Bible Study class was for all the 13-100 year olds.  The 0-12 year olds had their own classes at their own levels. 

 

At another church some of the same Scripture was covered each week on the same general topic for everyone but the classes were divided by typical age ranges.  The adults got a much meatier version and the kids got lighter versions mixed with kid friendly activities.

 

Our small group on Wednesday is a sing along and discussion of the last Sunday's sermon with families all participating together.

 

There are so many different ways to do it, but not the way the OP describes her church doing it.

[3 ladybugs]

After reading the announcement, I have some thoughts.

 

1.  How is that "home centered"?

 

2.  How is it helpful to have a "mentor parent"?  To me it feels like that undermines the actual parents.  Like "poor you, your parents are neglecting you, let us help make up for it."  Not only for wee kids who might actually need assistance, but all the way up to high school ???  I actually find that offensive.  Like when someone offers to walk my perfectly capable school child down the sidewalk.  No.

 

3.  IMO home centered spirituality is built from the parents' hearts, not from whatever the Sunday School curriculum says.  IMO the suggested model is limiting.

 

4.  Even if I do sit through a class with my kid (like at scouts, museum events, etc.), that does not mean I go home and re-hash the lesson for the rest of the week.

 

5.  As already covered, there seems to be nothing for the parents' spiritual growth.

 

6.  This model bears zero resemblance to the models that the Bible shows.

 

On point 2, I was thinking the same thing! We want to adopt. That would put us 3 children, 2 adults, and grandparents far away (closest is 1200 miles). I would NEVER EVER want an adopted child ESPECIALLY to feel like that! I also don't see how going through high school would be beneficial to anyone. 

 

On point 3, I agree completely. If they would have sent out a letter or told us on the last day of Sunday School last year something to the effect of, "we would like to include more bible knowledge at home. Please let us know how we can help you with that." That would be totally different then what they are doing.

 

On point 4, I would argue that I am LESS likely to rehash it because I was there. When I pick up my son from Sunday School or German classes for that matter, the first words out of my mouth after "hello, hallo" are "What did you learn today?" Then we discuss based on what he tells me. With this, I have no reason to ask him that. We were there together. 

 

On point 6, This is where my lack of formal years long bible study shows. I can't argue that it is not biblical, because I don't know. I do know that my husband went to religious school as a child so he knows more then me. The fact that he is almost offended by this tells me a lot. 

[lllll]

nm 

 

Edited October 5, 2016 by 1' n'ye

[SamanthaCarter]

No, schemes don't belong in anything related to bible study.  Sorry, if that happened we'd have a meeting with the leadership like when we did when the pastor I mentioned upthread announced publicly that they would give points to kids for attending youth group activities and only kids who had earned enough by attending most of the activities would get to go to camp.  We pointed out how outrageously unbiblical that was at a church with grace based teachings, how kids who couldn't attend regularly might respond to that, the problematic nature of exclusion, etc.  He ended it immediately and some parents (regular attenders) complained.  I guess some people need everyone to see their gold stars on the chart.

 

If parents need schemes to motivate them it's because that have a serious void in their own spiritual situation.  Schemes won't address that and won't keep it going for the long haul.

 

You are probably right. 

[8circles]

So this church wants families with two parents, two kids, as the norm. And they want parents who don't need adult bible studies, themselves.

 

I'd be thinking, "Good to know," and start looking for another church that is more inclusive.

 

LOL - this particular church probably thinks they're very inclusive - defined another way.

[TX Native]

.

Edited April 30, 2017 by TX native

[MerryAtHope]

4. Allow parents or adults to volunteer to be "mentor parents" for those children whose parents cannot or choose not to attend. Every child is welcome and encouraged to participate even if they cannot be accompanied by a parent.

 

Sounds like they are giving you the option to choose not to attend. Or attend occasionally if you want to. And that your child is still welcome either way. 

[SKL]

Sounds like they are giving you the option to choose not to attend. Or attend occasionally if you want to. And that your child is still welcome either way. 

 

Yes, but it would be embarrassing to the kids because someone would come to their rescue to be their "mentor parent."  It would not be anything like the experience I want my kids to have in Sunday School.

 

And let's be honest, behind the scenes there is going to be talk about which parents are shirking their duties and piling onto other adults.  I really think it would affect my relationship with the church community.  I would feel obligated to attend even though I consider it ridiculous.

Edited September 10, 2016 by SKL

[TX Native]

.

Edited April 30, 2017 by TX native

[Terabith]

I would call up the pastor and ask him how this is supposed to work: parents with kids at all age levels, adult education, how annoyed the teens will be, etc.

[bolt.]

If I had meant I imagined I was talking to a volunteer, I would have put "volunteer" not "worker" -- plus, please remember that it is very easy to misread my tone, even in the context of my lighthearted imaginary scenario. I was thinking 'sugary sweet with a kind smile'.

 

I honestly think Sunday school volunteers are privilidged to be able to go the ministry they are called to. I want them to be happy and fulfilled with great relationships with the people they minister to -- kids. If they don't feel that way, if they think they are doing a favour for parents or if they think parents owe duties in this area, I hope they step back and find a better ministry niche. Motivation matters for ministers. (I'm not worried about Sunday school failing for lack of volunteers because I'm perfectly happy with or without it. I think most people are ok as long as some people minister to their children in some way -- and some people always will.)

Edited September 10, 2016 by bolt.

[chiguirre]

 

2. Have at least one parent (or grandparent) attend with each child. Learning will be inter-generational as parents and their children learn the Bible stories together and apply them to their everyday lives.

 

Are you sure they actually mean 1 adult for each child? Maybe they mean 1 adult per sibling group which would make a lot more sense. So if you have a 1st and 3rd grader you go to the class with both of them. They each have an adult but you have more than 1 kid.

 

A local parish does family CCE this way. A lot of people like it because it's only once a month plus homework instead of every week. But, only one parent has to attend for all the elementary aged kids in the family.

[SKL]

[deleted quote at request of quoted person]

 

But this plan seems worse if they are going to pair kids with random adults if their own parents don't show up.  I don't know exactly how that's going to look, but wouldn't it be that much harder to make sure no hanky panky is going on?

 

I didn't want to bring it up because I think we worry too much about "bad guys."  But at the same time, a policy that puts my kid one-on-one with another adult I haven't chosen myself doesn't sound smart.

 

Edited September 25, 2016 by SKL

[SKL]

The volunteer issue is a whole different matter.  It doesn't sound like that is their concern, and even if it is, their plan seems way overkill and self-defeating.  Our church uses a more direct approach:  they get up in front of the church and talk about all the work that is being done and encourage others to join in.  If they are hating on me for not being a SS teacher, I haven't sensed that.  :)

[Reefgazer]

Looking at point number one, if you had three children in three separate age groups, a married couple would be screwed, because each person could only be one place at a time. On the other hand, looking at point 4, it seems like it's a voluntary thing.

 

The letter from the pastor started with Deuteronomy 6:6-8 then said:

 

"There is nothing of greater importance then passing on the faith to our children. Moses reminded God's people in the passage above to take every opportunity to do just that. But more then that, the passage teaches us that Christian education is to be home-centered, church supported. That's right, the primary responsibility for faith formation resides with the parents. That leaves the church in a supportive role.

 

We at (church name) have always taken the responsibility of teaching God's Word and faith formation as central. But perhaps in the past we have slipped into a model in which faith formation is church-centered, home-supported. Recognizing this reversal of priorities, we are hoping to change some things.

 

(name) and I have been talking a lot about this subject in the past year. We have talked with our congregational leaders, Sunday School teachers, and parents. We have consulted with our NJ District Education staff and even visited a local church that models this approach. All of these discussions have proven helpful and have led us to make a move toward being more home-centered, church supported in our faith formation efforts.

 

But the key to this is you, for you are the home!

 

So here is what we, with your blessing and participation would like to do:

 

1. Offer Sunday School classes on three levels; Pre-school, Kindergarten/Elementary, and Jr. and Sr. High (Confirmation age through HS).

2. Have at least one parent (or grandparent) attend with each child. Learning will be inter-generational as parents and their children learn the Bible stories together and apply them to their everyday lives.

3. Continue learning and application at home with brief take-home activities. And, because parent and child experience the lesson together, discussions, learning, and application begun in class can continue throughout the week.

4. Allow parents or adults to volunteer to be "mentor parents" for those children whose parents cannot or choose not to attend. Every child is welcome and encouraged to participate even if they cannot be accompanied by a parent.

 

We hope that you can see the exciting potential this model has and are eager to participate. We plan to start this home-centered, church supported Sunday School on Sunday September 11 at 9:15 am.

 

We would love to get your feedback and full participation. If you have any questions please call (name) or Pastor (name).

 

And please pray for God's blessing as we start this new venture."

[Reefgazer]

Well, I did bow out of all volunteering at my church for a while because I was just too burned out to do one more thing ( I had too many outside commitments , and like you said, volunteering is way down, and I was the one who volunteered repeatedly whenever asked). Scheming to get me to volunteer more when I specifically walked away from volunteering for a reason would just have made me entirely walk away from the church. I take my volunteer commitments seriously, and if I back off and don't sign up for something, it's because I have to, and I don't appreciate anyone pushing me to volunteer with some scheme such as this. In fact, that's not volunteering, that's coercing. If a church doesn't have enough actual, true volunteers to run a program, then that is a ministry that they probably should not take on at this time. Our church couldn't scare up enough volunteers to run Sunday school for a good stretch of time, and the world didn't come to an end; the kids stayed in church with the parents or the parents alternated coming to church with one staying home with the children.
 

 

Edited September 24, 2016 by reefgazer

[lllll]

nm 

 

Edited October 5, 2016 by 1' n'ye

[8circles]

Just remember that Sunday School worker is likely a volunteer and not paid staff. As a volunteer for children's ministry on Sunday who has to pull teeth to get another parent to sub once in a great while, I would stop volunteering if parents treated me like this.

 

?? Treated like how?  Clearly, it makes the wrongness of this policy pretty clear, but there is nothing rude about it nor is anyone treating anyone badly.

[Amy M]

I didn't read all the comments, only the first, and the letter. My impression after reading your initial post was, "Sounds like they're going family-integrated. But that's kind of a weird way to do it." From what I've heard, homeschoolers are generally proponents of family-integrated churches, for the same reasons that they like homeschooling, e.g. God gave ME the responsibility to educate my children, and I don't want my children to only learn in age-segregated groups. Another reason I've heard (mainly against "children's church") is that you don't want the child to go to a hyped-up, revivalistic, daycare type of Sunday school scenario where the kids are taught subconsciously that, really, learning about God isn't fun, so we have to trick you into thinking it's great with lots of candy and prizes and games and bait-and-switch tactics. Then the kids grow older and have to attend "real church," and now "it's boring," and all about me, not about God.

 

I understand and relate to some of those reasons for wanting a more family-integrated model. However, it seemed to me that they were not getting the point completely, since your post made it seem like the kids were still age-segregated, while asking parents to sit in with them! I've heard of it the other way, where kids of all ages, from 2-16, sit in the parents S.S. class.

 

However, when I read the letter, I noticed that they are not requiring this. (Point 4, I think.) if you don't want to do it, you don't have to. They will "allow" other mentors for your children, not forcibly assign. You do not have to try this, if you don't want to, and you and your children are still welcome to continue attending as before. Secondly, the age-segregation is fairly logical. Babies and littles, elementary, and jr high/high school. If you have w first, third, and fifth grader, one parent can sit in with all three together. At least, that was my impression; maybe I misunderstood how big your church is. So many families could handle that with two parents, unless they have a pretty large family with a big age spread, in which case, based on the tone of the letter, I'm guessing they'd work with you and understand if you need to tweak the program a little for your family.

 

I have attended two churches that were family-integrated friendly, meaning they encouraged families to learn together, but still provided the traditional format for those whose wanted separate classes. From what I saw, the families did a good job keeping little ones from distracting others, and if they got loud, they took them out. I do think it's good for the kids to hear mature adults discussing Scripture. Seems biblical too, for the families to be together. But I am a missionary and always have to care for my own kids during church. When I come home to the States and get to put my kids in their own class (that I don't have to teach!), that can be such a relief! So I can relate to both sides.

[3 ladybugs]

For me the problem really is, we feel blindsided by the whole issue. We have had our son in Sunday School since he was a bit over 3. He was actually the same age my younger son is now, when we started going to this church. At one point right before I started the process to get pregnant with my younger son, I was asked if I wanted to teach Sunday School. I declined telling them that I was planning on getting pregnant and I wasn't sure how long I could do Sunday School once I got pregnant. Aside from that one encounter, we had NO idea that there was even a need for a change in Sunday School. One could argue that by them asking me, that wasn't even a need for anything other then more volunteers. 

 

If they would have told us that they wanted to have a meeting to discuss issues with Sunday School, we would have went. If they gave us any indication that there were issues with Sunday School, we would have called for a meeting to take place. However no discussion took place. It is possible that there was discussion of this in VBS planning meetings. However VBS this year was scheduled to start the DAY my baby turned 3. 3 is the minimum age for VBS. Needless to say I didn't think he was ready and didn't plan to put him in VBS so I didn't go to the planning meetings as I didn't want to juggle this and help out with VBS. 

 

We were told when we converted to this denomination from what we were, that they were a "bottom up" organization. To me a "bottom up" organization would imply that if the leadership of the church saw an issue, they would bring it to a meeting to address such topics. Who knows, maybe someone in the congregation would have come up with a better solution. More minds, often result in better outcomes when problems arise. The end result could have also been the same. There is a chance that some people wouldn't have come to the meeting. However, if there was one, at least no one could say that they didn't know about it, provided it was advertised for a few weeks prior, like most meetings are. 

 

I think that is where one of my big rubs are. I feel like they saw a broken system and assumed that the rest of us did to. 

[TX Native]

nm, I apoligize

Edited September 10, 2016 by TX native

[TX Native]

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Edited April 30, 2017 by TX native

[TX Native]

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Edited April 30, 2017 by TX native

[8circles]

It isn't the Sunday School teacher's fault, the pastor has offered for members to call him with questions beforehand, and pretending to show up at the class as there wasn't a change (with sarcasm towards the teacher-likely volunteer, but even if it is a paid worker the paid worker didn't make this decision) is treating that teacher badly. Threatening to go somewhere next Sunday in a sarcastic tone over the pastor wanting to teach children and adults together is never what was intended by the body of Christ gathering together on a Sunday morning to worship the Lord.

 

I didn't hear any sarcasm in bolt's hypothetical conversation.  It's a blunt conversation that many people are uncomfortable with, clearly.  & I'm not sure where the threatening comes from...  If the answers in bolt's hypothetical conversation were accurate answers (& I'm not sure they were, based on the letter the OP received) then that's just the reality of the situation.  

 

There's a lot that goes on by the body of Christ gathering together on a Sunday morning to worship the Lord that was never intended.  I'd put resentful volunteers in that category, for sure.  I'd also put this kind of blended-age Sunday School class in that category as well, at least the way it's been described by the OP.  

 

There's all kind of people included in the Body of Christ, and some are more blunt than others.  Bolt's post wasn't sarcastic, threatening, or unkind in any way.  & she's in the Body of Christ, too.

[TX Native]

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Edited April 30, 2017 by TX native

[TX Native]

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Edited April 30, 2017 by TX native

[lllll]

nm 

 

Edited October 5, 2016 by 1' n'ye

[Reefgazer]

I understand this; our church is small and also in need of volunteers for everything because it is the same people who volunteer over and over.  But in this particular season of my life, I must pare down, so volunteer commitments were one of a few things to go. 

 

I say no all the time these days to youth group and Sunday School volunteering because I absolutely can not take on any more commitments, despite the fact my kids like to participate in these things.  That's the only reason.  I understand that everyone is busy, but if someone is filling a volunteer job, then I will presume that they have time to do so, or else they would have said no, as well (which I don't fault anyone for having to decline).

 

I don't know....Maybe having a rule that parents must participate or else their kids can't participate is necessary.  But I do know that such a rule was the reason my kids were confirmed in the UMC and not the Catholic church.  When DH and I got married, I agreed to have the kids raised Catholic (DH's religion); it was understood that DH would be responsible for this training because I am Protestant and don't have a Catholic clue.  But DH was active duty Navy and couldn't participate in the process when DD came of age to be confirmed.  I wasn't about to do it, so we changed our plans for kid confirmation to the Protestant church.  That's why I think policies like that are coercive and result in people leaving a church, and why I think it's better not to take on a ministry that doesn't have the time and backing of the congregation.

edited out, reef gazer, I am sorry I came across as a resentful Sunday School worker who tried to coerce parents into volunteering. I only ask and nothing else, but I honestly do not understand saying no all the time to helping in a service where one's children participate every week, unless of course one isn't able to for other reasons. And what I deleted, the elders at our church are going to do away with things for which there are no volunteers and not have Sunday School for age groups that don't have subs when the teachers are absent. We are a lay-led with no paid workers, if that makes a difference.

 

Edited September 11, 2016 by reefgazer

[Emmalm]

 

 

If non-Christian parents want to drop off their children, if their children are interested, that is great! Do not get me wrong. I would love to see the un-churched children want to come to Sunday School. I pray for this! But when parents who profess to be members of the body of believers and want all the "benefits" of belonging to a church without thinking about how they can serve the Lord just want an hour of free child care? (In most churches the majority of drive-by-Sunday-Schoolings are just that, not the un-churched bringing their children) It is wonderful the kids are there, but if you want to be considered a member of a church and a Christian? Unless you work and cannot get off, you should bring your children to church and attend service. Otherwise, what kind of message is being sent to your children? "Yes kids, it is important to go to Sunday School, but it is not important to live out your faith as an adult. No, Sunday worship is not as important as going boating on the river."

 

The commitment level among millennials and younger is very very low. Not just in the church but across the board. Ask the veterans in the Americal Legion. Ask the Lions Club. Ask summer camps who their biggest supporters are. The sense of duty is fading, and behind is being left the cafeteria-style Christians who take what they feel like but do not get dug in. Most churches are being held together by an aging, loyal, hardworking core who love the Lord and care about spreading the Gospel of Jesus. These workers are getting tired and there is no one to step up and take over. And it is no wonder, if those who profess to know

Christ do not raise their children to sacrificialy give, not only their tithes, but their time and talents as well (including giving up a nice quiet Sunday morning for the chaoticness of going to church with your children). I mean, seriously. I have three young children, the youngest of which is very much a challenge to handle in church. Would I rather sleep in or take the kids to the park instead of wrestling my DD1.5 for an hour, getting sweaty and covered in fruit snacks and Cheerios? OF COURSE! Would I rather sit down with the adults after church and talk than make sure the Sunday School teachers have all they need and that the kids are making their way from music to their classrooms? Would I rather not have to collect their offerings and deal with the troublesome children? OF COURSE! But God called me to serve that year and I wanted to make sure those kids would be getting a good education, since that one hour was all that 95% of those kids got in Christian education all week. Christ didn't say, "hey, that is cool if you don't like what I am saying. Just take what you want from it, find your own truth. No, you don't need to give up everything to follow me, do what feels right to you for your own faith journey." Christ said to deny ourselves and follow Him. If Christian parents want to raise kids who truly know Christ, they can't just drop off their kid for education and go home. They need to be there actively participating with their children. That is one of the biggest frustration of Sunday School superintendents and teachers....most "Christian" parents just don't care. That was the situation I was deploring.

Edited September 11, 2016 by Emmalm

[El...]

What you are describing sounds like a logistical pickle for almost every family! 

 

I'm going to throw something out here, and if it does not apply, forget it, ok? 

 

When the church my family used to attend started doing "Family Sunday School", what they wanted was for small groups of 2-3 families to study together, with the fathers rotating as facilitators.  It was not about needing volunteers.  Frankly, it was about patriarchy.  The idea was that kids (and wives) should be primarily under the spiritual guidance of their father (or husband) and that separating out the kids and teens, away from their fathers, was removing the authority of the father as head Scripture-teacher and spiritual leader. 

 

While in some cases this was lovely family time (my Dad is a great teacher and a sweet soul), the problem with that was that it gave undue supremacy to some abusive fathers.  There was less opportunity for women to communicate with each other, and absolutely no out for the kids.  I'm thinking of a particular family in which the kids were under the thumb of their step-dad every single day, and now at church they got to hear him preach his version of whatever during Sunday School, too!  Not great.

 

It didn't last, in our old church.  I think our leaders figured out that all personalities did not work well in this model and stopped it.  There were a lot of good people in that church, trying to find their best models in a very patriarchy-rich time.

 

Your pastor's wording reminds me of it, somewhat, so if I were in your shoes, I'd be alert for any other patriarchal buzzwords or leanings.  I hope that isn't the case.

[SKL]

 Christ didn't say, "hey, that is cool if you don't like what I am saying. Just take what you want from it, find your own truth. No, you don't need to give up everything to follow me, do what feels right to you for your own faith journey." Christ said to deny ourselves and follow Him. If Christian parents want to raise kids who truly know Christ, they can't just drop off their kid for education and go home. They need to be there actively participating with their children. That is one of the biggest frustration of Sunday School superintendents and teachers....most "Christian" parents just don't care. That was the situation I was deploring.

 

Well if you want to get technical, Christ said we should forsake our families and follow him.  So would that mean I was right to go to the adult class instead of making sure my kid was getting the most from the watered-down Bible story he was hearing?

 

Jesus said Martha was too worried and Mary was right to sit and listen.

 

I'm Martha all week long.  I like to be Mary for one hour.

 

Besides, I don't believe my kids would benefit from me sitting in on their class.  I think they get as much or more out of being there without me.  If I actually didn't care, they would not be there at all.

 

I also don't believe that doing God's work necessarily means working in the church.

 

I'm sorry to say that some of the comments seem to imply that people who volunteer more in church are better than everyone else.  I think that's for God to decide.

[Ellie]

After reading the announcement, I have some thoughts.

 

1.  How is that "home centered"?

 

2.  How is it helpful to have a "mentor parent"?  To me it feels like that undermines the actual parents.  Like "poor you, your parents are neglecting you, let us help make up for it."  Not only for wee kids who might actually need assistance, but all the way up to high school ???  I actually find that offensive.  Like when someone offers to walk my perfectly capable school child down the sidewalk.  No.

 

3.  IMO home centered spirituality is built from the parents' hearts, not from whatever the Sunday School curriculum says.  IMO the suggested model is limiting.

 

4.  Even if I do sit through a class with my kid (like at scouts, museum events, etc.), that does not mean I go home and re-hash the lesson for the rest of the week.

 

5.  As already covered, there seems to be nothing for the parents' spiritual growth.

 

6.  This model bears zero resemblance to the models that the Bible shows.

 

:iagree:

 

[Dmmetler]

My thing is that my child's age group isn't necessarily the one I'm best qualified to teach. I am awesome wirh preschoolers or early elementary. I'm pretty good with high school kids. But I really struggle with 'tweens and early teens. Including...heck. Especially my own. And while DD accepts me as a teacher at home, there was a year at about 4th grade where I taught preschool/K in our homeschool co-op specifically because DD asked me not to teach in her class. She wanted to do it herself.

 

I understand the value of having parents involved. But I think it misses that just because a parent has a child of X age doesn't mean that he/she is best suited to teach/minister to those of X age. I'm remembering my own father-who never seemed to have much to say to me, until I reached late high school. Turned out he was an amazing advisor, both academically, and personally, for that late adolescent/young adult age group. (And once I went to college, I realized it wasn't just because he was a college professor, because many more lacked those skills than had them). I think expecting him to sit in an elementary Sunday School class wouldn't have ended well.

[HS Mom in NC]

If non-Christian parents want to drop off their children, if their children are interested, that is great! Do not get me wrong. I would love to see the un-churched children want to come to Sunday School. I pray for this! But when parents who profess to be members of the body of believers and want all the "benefits" of belonging to a church without thinking about how they can serve the Lord just want an hour of free child care? (In most churches the majority of drive-by-Sunday-Schoolings are just that, not the un-churched bringing their children) It is wonderful the kids are there, but if you want to be considered a member of a church and a Christian? Unless you work and cannot get off, you should bring your children to church and attend service. Otherwise, what kind of message is being sent to your children? "Yes kids, it is important to go to Sunday School, but it is not important to live out your faith as an adult. No, Sunday worship is not as important as going boating on the river."

 

The commitment level among millennials and younger is very very low. Not just in the church but across the board. Ask the veterans in the Americal Legion. Ask the Lions Club. Ask summer camps who their biggest supporters are. The sense of duty is fading, and behind is being left the cafeteria-style Christians who take what they feel like but do not get dug in. Most churches are being held together by an aging, loyal, hardworking core who love the Lord and care about spreading the Gospel of Jesus. These workers are getting tired and there is no one to step up and take over. And it is no wonder, if those who profess to know

Christ do not raise their children to sacrificialy give, not only their tithes, but their time and talents as well (including giving up a nice quiet Sunday morning for the chaoticness of going to church with your children). I mean, seriously. I have three young children, the youngest of which is very much a challenge to handle in church. Would I rather sleep in or take the kids to the park instead of wrestling my DD1.5 for an hour, getting sweaty and covered in fruit snacks and Cheerios? OF COURSE! Would I rather sit down with the adults after church and talk than make sure the Sunday School teachers have all they need and that the kids are making their way from music to their classrooms? Would I rather not have to collect their offerings and deal with the troublesome children? OF COURSE! But God called me to serve that year and I wanted to make sure those kids would be getting a good education, since that one hour was all that 95% of those kids got in Christian education all week. Christ didn't say, "hey, that is cool if you don't like what I am saying. Just take what you want from it, find your own truth. No, you don't need to give up everything to follow me, do what feels right to you for your own faith journey." Christ said to deny ourselves and follow Him. If Christian parents want to raise kids who truly know Christ, they can't just drop off their kid for education and go home. They need to be there actively participating with their children. That is one of the biggest frustration of Sunday School superintendents and teachers....most "Christian" parents just don't care. That was the situation I was deploring.

 

What are you talking about?  The adults having an adult option to be spiritually fed "meat" rather than "milk" by an adult who knows more than they do has nothing at all to do with the cafeteria Christian problem or the fading sense of duty. Having parents spend their Bible study time at a kid level class is simply ridiculous and counter productive to equipping the adults.  It won't solve the apathy problem in the adults either.  They won't be more motivated to provide regular at home bible time with the kids just because they attend the kid classes.  You seem to be confused about the topic at hand.

[HS Mom in NC]

Oh, and this thread reminds me of something I've learned through observation; if you don't get feedback from the group before planning the group activities, you're likely to get feedback after the activities and odds are, you won't like what you hear.