Help me be a better parent: not finishing a job

[mommymonster]

I "hired" DS10 to pressure wash our back fence. He did a good job for the first 2/3 of it, and then sort of doodled with the pressure washer and ultimately stopped. He's refusing to finish the job, and is being shirty about it... he actually said, "you know, mom, if you want something done right, you should do it yourself."

 

*sigh*

 

I'd like to turn this into a teaching moment and talk about the power of doing a good job, etc. (I did bring up that he was hired to do a job, that he didn't finish the job, etc.) He's been surly lately and honestly I'm pretty over it. Part of me wants to stop helping him -- not making dinner the way he likes it, not doing his laundry, etc. and respond that "DS10 should do things himself if he wants something done right." That seems petty and immature to me, but I'd like to drive home the power of doing good work and sticking with a job. Does anyone have a better idea? The pressure washing needs to get done, so leaving it to look crappy isn't an option. 

 

Thoughts, opinions, rotten tomatoes at my crappy parenting skills... 

[Guest]

First, you aren't a rotten parent. He's being a typical (in my experience) ten year old. In your position I would highly consider employing the 7 year old (with your help) to finish the job and then pay him/her in full. That would teach DS10 that doing a job badly is the same as not completing it. We have had to pull out some pretty severe stops at my house to get one of our children in line with doing things properly. Mainly- B does not happen until A is done is full, correctly. Money isn't a motivator for this one, but activities or books or something else usually is- it simply takes a while to determine the stick/carrot which changes with age. It is painful, so I totally sympathize with your frustration. If anyone has a permanent cure I would love to hear it, but at our house this sort of thing is a constant work in progress. 

[maize]

My guess is that brain development is involved here--something to do with the function of the reward centers in the brain combined with immature executive functions skills. The initial excitement over getting paid (activating the reward center) did not last long enough to carry him through the entire job, and his executive function abilities are not yet developed enough to pull him through the rest with the reasoning that he's got to finish to get the reward that he no longer feels as real.

 

So there you have my amateur psychologist analysis :) I think I'd let him know that I understand it is hard to keep going when we are tired and bored with a job but the job still needs to be done, then I'd help him finish and make it as fun as possible. He gets paid, minus a token amount that goes to me for my help. Then we sit down together with a snack and enjoy the satisfaction of a job completed.

[maize]

In my experience, failing and getting in trouble for failing when something is difficult for a child (and maintaining stamina through the end of a challenging and lonely task is difficult for many children) just discourages the child from trying next time. I think there is more value in most cases in helping them succeed than in allowing them to fail on their own (and condemning them for doing so).

[Arcadia]

My kids are about the same age.  They have their bad atitude moments too.  When you say you hire, did you give him cash for the job?  I do assign my kids jobs especially my DS10 because he loves to move so "movement chores" makes him happy.  He is happy sweeping the patio and does a great job, but that is a chore he choose.  I don't pay them to do chores so I can't say they did a half baked job and withhold payment. I can't assign dish washing to my DS11 without checking because he is unintentionally sloppy. He miss dirt spots which he would wash clean if someone tells him.

 

For my kids, surly means lack of food and/or sleep. Or the weather is so hot that everyone just want to hibernate at the library instead of doing anything else.

[MASHomeschooler]

ETA: maize's solution is better. I have a hard time thinking of things like that when their behavior is aggravating, especially unexpectedly. I don't think the "taste of their own medicine" is bad, but supporting through completion would be better.

Edited August 19, 2016 by MASHomeschooler

[Katy]

I realize this is extreme and I'll probably be criticized for this, but I'd march his butt back out there and be really unpleasant until he finished the job. Literally, he'd be on restriction - no screen time, no fun, no friends, no games, and no privacy until it was done.  Options would include sitting in the time out spot, sitting in the time-out spot reading the Bible, sleeping in the time out spot, and finishing the job until it is done.  Half-assing something he agreed to do is not the type of character we allow in this house, and if he didn't apologize and do the job with a pleasant attitude, he would not only not get paid, the fee to "hire" another sibling to finish the job would come out of HIS allowance.  AND, he'd be on restriction until the sibling finished the job.  But I'm incredibly and consistently "mean" about such things, and don't allow quitting anything without a doctor's orders. 

 

Having said that, I think it's developmentally typical for a 9-13 year old, and his crappy attitude has nothing to do with your parenting.  Also, DH and I both have some adult relatives that are completely irresponsible and choose to mooch off others rather than work whenever possible; it is one of our family pet peeves, and we have zero tolerance for quitting something before it is finished in this house.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

My guess is that brain development is involved here--something to do with the function of the reward centers in the brain combined with immature executive functions skills. The initial excitement over getting paid (activating the reward center) did not last long enough to carry him through the entire job, and his executive function abilities are not yet developed enough to pull him through the rest with the reasoning that he's got to finish to get the reward that he no longer feels as real.

 

So there you have my amateur psychologist analysis :) I think I'd let him know that I understand it is hard to keep going when we are tired and bored with a job but the job still needs to be done, then I'd help him finish and make it as fun as possible. He gets paid, minus a token amount that goes to me for my help. Then we sit down together with a snack and enjoy the satisfaction of a job completed.

 

I mostly agree with this (except I wouldn't focus on making it as fun as possible; I'd be just matter of fact about it). The fence needs to be washed, and we are going to wash it. If you bit off more than you could chew I will help you, but the fence is getting washed right now.

 

If he says, "If you want it done right, do it yourself," my answer is always "What I really want, more than I want a clean fence, is a boy who can work and be proud of the job that he does. You're going to get better at finishing jobs as you grow. I will help you today, and another time you will help me."

 

The only other place I differ with Maize's excellent advice is that I don't pay for partial work.

[bolt.]

I think modelling good behaviour yourself, and being careful not to be overly harsh are both really important. Chances are in a few days he will totally co-operate with a teachable moment about how foolish this was. He needs a sense of warmth from you to be teachable, and some distance from feeling defensive about the event.

 

Don't do the petty payback. The greater lesson is that good people (like you) meet commitments without letting their feelings cause them to let others down. Model that, but maybe talk about 'what if' you weren't a grown up who is already good at that? What if you did let people down in big ways when you got tired? How would that look for a happy family? This is one ofcthdcways you expect him to grow up big and strong. Being responsible builds happy families who can rely on teamwork. Everybody likes to be able to rely on teamwork.

 

You set this up as a optional work-for-pay scenario. He did agree, but in the end he chose not to do it. You really shouldn't cast it as non-compliance, or not contributing to the family, or anything like that. Simply don't pay him. Then talk later about this new concept of job-type work, and deciding whether or not it's worth it to agree to do the whole job. Give him the option to say 'I'm not sue if I want that whole job, but I'll try it and let you know.' -- which preserves his honesty when he wants to agree to a job but isn't sure he is committed to the whole thing.

 

The 'some work for no pay' effect will be a fairly practical lesson about work completion -- without an added layer of family teamwork emotionality.

 

If you hired a neighbour kid and he toddled off, you would just think he was a big young for the responsibility, pay him nothing, and solve your fence issue another way.

[PeppermintPattie]

First, you aren't a rotten parent. He's being a typical (in my experience) ten year old. In your position I would highly consider employing the 7 year old (with your help) to finish the job and then pay him/her in full. That would teach DS10 that doing a job badly is the same as not completing it. We have had to pull out some pretty severe stops at my house to get one of our children in line with doing things properly. Mainly- B does not happen until A is done is full, correctly. Money isn't a motivator for this one, but activities or books or something else usually is- it simply takes a while to determine the stick/carrot which changes with age. It is painful, so I totally sympathize with your frustration. If anyone has a permanent cure I would love to hear it, but at our house this sort of thing is a constant work in progress. 

 

I think this could set a dangerous precedent where both kids see the 7yo as more responsible than the 10yo and possibly create a situation where 10yo does everything possible to live up to this idea. (I've seen this happen more than once!) It would be much better for him to win this battle over self rather than to let the 7 year old win.

 

I might tell him that nothing  was going to happen today until the fence was finished, and I'd even go out and help with it in a friendly way, but as determined as anything to win this battle. Don't give him a choice - just "Come on, we're going out the the fence." And I might throw in a few sentences about how hard Dad works for us, and how learning to do grown up things starts by doing small jobs well at 10.

 

I love the verse in Galatians 5 that says to bear one another's burdens. The responsibility of following through to the end on this job is a burden to your son, and you can help him with it not by letting someone else do it or by the job going unfinished, but by helping your son gather up all the determination he can to get it done. Sometimes we need to find motivation outside of ourselves to do something, and that's the burden you can bear for him, by providing that motivation.

[Amy in NH]

I would pin up the payment in a place where he can see it as a real reward, and then march his butt back out there to finish the job and earn it.

[mommymonster]

Thanks, everyone, for your advice! It's amazing what solid (and diverse) advice comes from the Hive! 

 

Taking into account that it's been hot here, that DS10 hasn't been eating protein for breakfast like he should, and that the whole family is rather stressed right now, I'm going to go with the "work together" model with payment to be made upon completion, and it needs to be done by tomorrow so that we can do a fun thing (swimming at the river). 

 

DS10 and I are similar creatures, so he just knows how to push the crap out of my buttons. I very, very much appreciate all the different perspectives of the Hive so that I can try to both chill out and be a better parent.  :001_wub:

[Guest]

I think you should pound into his little head that "A job worth doing is worth doing well." My kids hate it when I say that. LOL

[Bambam]

Did you offer payment? If so, I don't pay for a partially done job. Nope, you didn't finish it, you made no previous agreement for if you do the first 2/3rd, you could get 2/3rd of the money, etc.

I might take him out there to look at the fence and ask him what he thinks of it. If he doesn't volunteer that the last part isn't as good as the first, ask pointed questions until he 'sees' it.

 

Personally, I'd encourage him to finish the task. If he won't, then I'm hard-nosed enough to not pay him for his work since the agreement was for the entire fence. I'd finish it myself.

 

But ... I'd mention that if he doesn't finish the job, he is making a reputation for himself - and not an admirable or desirable reputation. And the next time I offer to pay him for something, it would be with the understanding (specifically and explicitly stated) that the job *must* be completed satisfactorily (try to define that if possible) in order for any payment to be made.

I can understand getting bored and stopping, hey you are a 10 year old, but you should get back on it the next day. The proper approach would have been to inform your mom/employer, and state what your revised plan was.  I understand getting hungry and needed to stop for a snack. Or whatever, but the deal is you agreed to do this, so you should. 

 

I'm not one to typically revise an agreement because (fill-in-the-blank-excuse - unless I believe it is valid and you let me know as soon as you could) the world does not work that way. And if I let you get by with all sorts of things, I don't believe I'm doing my job of getting you ready for the real world.

 

Of course, if that fence is real long, I'd probably be tempted to cut some slack for a 10 year old. I'm not afraid to say that I was wrong, and I think that job was too big for you, and so I think you finished it and I'll pay you. But next time, we will discuss it before we have an agreement. 

[lllll]

nm

Edited November 7, 2016 by cathey

[HomeAgain]

I'm reminded of one of the chapters in Cheaper By The Dozen.  During the family meeting, the request of bids to whitewash the fence came up.  One of the littles (I think she was 7 or 8) bid $.67, undercutting everyone by quite a bit.  It was hard, and it took her two weeks, but she did it and came to collect her reward - the last bit needed to buy the roller skates she wanted.  Her father kissed and hugged her, and then told her to look under her pillow, where she found a brand new pair of skates.

 

 

Having that in my head, it tells me the problem is not about the job.  It doesn't matter if it's too hard, too big...the problem is learning how to follow through and finish to the best of one's ability.  It's time for you to ride his tail until he gets it done.

 

However, it's also time to have firm written contracts for the next go around.  What you expect, when you expect it done by, penalty if it's not (costing him $x per day over the budgeted time, for example), and the details need to be hashed out and agreed upon by all parties involved.  A 10yo is old enough to bounce ideas back and forth and compromise.  There should be a signed copy for each of you.

[bolt.]

I'm reminded of one of the chapters in Cheaper By The Dozen. During the family meeting, the request of bids to whitewash the fence came up. One of the littles (I think she was 7 or 8) bid $.67, undercutting everyone by quite a bit. It was hard, and it took her two weeks, but she did it and came to collect her reward - the last bit needed to buy the roller skates she wanted. Her father kissed and hugged her, and then told her to look under her pillow, where she found a brand new pair of skates.

 

 

Having that in my head, it tells me the problem is not about the job. It doesn't matter if it's too hard, too big...the problem is learning how to follow through and finish to the best of one's ability. It's time for you to ride his tail until he gets it done.

 

However, it's also time to have firm written contracts for the next go around. What you expect, when you expect it done by, penalty if it's not (costing him $x per day over the budgeted time, for example), and the details need to be hashed out and agreed upon by all parties involved. A 10yo is old enough to bounce ideas back and forth and compromise. There should be a signed copy for each of you.

Just becsuse a fictional 6 or 7 year old can do any job, no matter how hard, because she has a heart of pure gold and the motivation of someone with a fully developed prefrontal cortex... It actually doesn't prove that actual, living 10 year olds (with developmentally normal brains) can accomplish such things simply by 'learning how to follow through'. Learning how to follow through is called 'executive functioning' and it is definitely not at its best in 10 year olds.

 

Help, skill development, encouragement, and scaffolding will be a lot more useful that "riding his tail". And "riding his tail" won't teach him any of those things anyways. It will only teach him, "I follow through to avoid my parents acting unpleasantly, which gives me icky feelings I'd like to prevent." <-- that's not a form of responsibility. It's simply reinforcing supervision-dependancy.

[HomeAgain]

You know the book is an autobiography, right?

 

Anyhow, that is why a contract needs to be in place *in the future*. Now is the time to demand follow through and living up to his word.

[maize]

You know the book is an autobiography, right?

 

Anyhow, that is why a contract needs to be in place *in the future*. Now is the time to demand follow through and living up to his word.

It is semi-autobiographical fiction.

 

I do think there are some six year old who could do what is described in cheaper by the dozen, there are also many who could not. I had one sister who had really impressive self control and focus pretty much from the time she was a toddler--my parents thought they had parenting all figured out.

 

Then they got me with my ADHD type brain :D

[mom2att]

Man, I'm a softie, I guess. Or my kids are just wimps. I think that's a pretty big job for a 10-year-old. I have nice and helpful kids who do their share around the house, but house maintenance (other than the lawn) isn't on their to-do list, even for pay. My older teen does mow, but the mower's not self-propelled and the younger one doesn't have the strength for it yet. He picks up sticks instead.

 

That said, if I did hire a 10 year old to do a pressure-washing job, I'd pay in accordance with the job done. And then I'd say, "Wow, that may have been a bigger job than you thought! Let's go out and finish it together." I wouldn't pay him for the time I spent working with him, but the job would be done and he'd be a part of seeing it through.

 

 

 

[bolt.]

Yep, heart of gold, tons of motivation, excellent executive function from a young age... I suppose there must be some statistical outliers out there. Maybe books get written about unusual children by the authorly adults they grow into. Or maybe the story was sweetened and simplified a little (like a lot of autobiographical fiction). In any case, even if the anecdote is utterly factual, it's still unusual, not an indication of what "any kid" could do if they just put their mind to it.

Edited August 18, 2016 by bolt.

[maize]

Yep, heart of gold, tons of motivation, excellent executive function from a young age... I suppose there must be some statistical outliers out there. Maybe books get written about unusual children by the authorly adults they grow into. Or maybe the story was sweetened and simplified a little (like a lot of autobiographical fiction). In any case, even if the anecdote is utterly factual, it's still unusual, not an indication of what any kid could do if they just put their mind to it.

 

The oddest thing about the Cheaper by the Dozen book is that it never mentions the fact that there were never a dozen children. One of the older daughters--Mary--died when she was only 5 or 6 years old, long before the youngest children were born. There were never more than 11 children alive in the household.

[HomeAgain]

The oddest thing about the Cheaper by the Dozen book is that it never mentions the fact that there were never a dozen children. One of the older daughters--Mary--died when she was only 5 or 6 years old, long before the youngest children were born. There were never more than 11 children alive in the household.

It does. It's a footnote in the first or second chapter. I do like the comprehension here that reduced a child of "7 or 8" to 6 years old in the fence story. FWIW, I checked and the child in question was 8. A 10yo is certainly old enough to spend a bit of time each day until the promised job is done.

[Ravin]

Since he did 2/3 of the job, I would give him 2/3 of what you said you'd pay him.

[maize]

 A 10yo is certainly old enough to spend a bit of time each day until the promised job is done.

 

I was a child who struggled with executive function. I had a mother who believed if you were just consistent and applied consequences children were capable of meeting expectations.

 

I wasn't.

 

And all those failures to meet expectations, disappointing my parent, disappointing myself--those left some long lasting, painful scars across the landscape of my childhood. It is only as an adult that I have learned to look at my childhood self with much more compassion and understanding.

 

I try my best to bring that compassion and understanding into my interactions with my own children. Children are not small adults, their brains are very different from adult brains. And they are very different one from another. Having a pre-determined idea of what any child--six, ten, or fifteen--is "certainly old enough" for can result in profoundly damaging interactions with that child.

 

Personally I prefer to err on the side of empathy and compassion as much as possible.

Edited August 18, 2016 by maize

[Haiku]

If you hired him, then he does in fact have a right to terminate the agreement. I would not force him to finish. He may have simply bitten off more than he can chew.

 

However, if he agrees to do a job and then won't finish it, he forfeits the right to be paid.

 

Were it me, I would offer him extended time to do the job. Let if go for a few days, and see whether he's willing to finish it next week.

 

If he won't, then I'd:

 

1. Remind him this decreases my trust in his word.

 

2. Remind him I won't be handing out paying jobs in the foreseeable future.

 

3. Remind him that when he agrees to do a job, he agrees to do it right, and if he's not willing to do it right, don't take the job.

 

All in all, he's 10, and I wouldn't make a huge deal of it. But there are consequences to flaking on your word.

[Haiku]

The oddest thing about the Cheaper by the Dozen book is that it never mentions the fact that there were never a dozen children. One of the older daughters--Mary--died when she was only 5 or 6 years old, long before the youngest children were born. There were never more than 11 children alive in the household.

 

My copy has a footnote in one of the beginning pages of the story that mentions that Mary died of scarlet fever when she was 3.

 

Funny that I, too, thought of Lillian and the skates when I read the OP.

 

I'm proud of myself that I still remember all the Gilbreth children and in order: Anne, Mary, Ernestine, Martha, Frank, Bill, Lillian, Fred, Dan, Jack, Bob, and Jane! For a while when I was a kid, I wanted to be called Ernestine.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Haiku

[Haiku]

Personally I prefer to err on the side of empathy and compassion as much as possible.

 

I don't think it's lacking in empathy or compassion to ask a 10 year old to spend some time (20 minutes, maybe?) a day to finish a job he committed to doing. In fact, I think it teaches a child that a big job can be accomplished in small parts.

[BlsdMama]

I'm reminded of one of the chapters in Cheaper By The Dozen. During the family meeting, the request of bids to whitewash the fence came up. One of the littles (I think she was 7 or 8) bid $.67, undercutting everyone by quite a bit. It was hard, and it took her two weeks, but she did it and came to collect her reward - the last bit needed to buy the roller skates she wanted. Her father kissed and hugged her, and then told her to look under her pillow, where she found a brand new pair of skates.

 

 

Having that in my head, it tells me the problem is not about the job. It doesn't matter if it's too hard, too big...the problem is learning how to follow through and finish to the best of one's ability. It's time for you to ride his tail until he gets it done.

 

However, it's also time to have firm written contracts for the next go around. What you expect, when you expect it done by, penalty if it's not (costing him $x per day over the budgeted time, for example), and the details need to be hashed out and agreed upon by all parties involved. A 10yo is old enough to bounce ideas back and forth and compromise. There should be a signed copy for each of you.

I think I love you. ;)

 

Truly, if the kid agreed to do it, he agreed to do it. If go out for thirty minutes a day and supervise it done until it's well done and I'd pay him for it if that was the agreement, but, yeah, he'd be keeping his word. The only punishment I might consider is no screen time, TV, etc cetera, until he kept that word. If he has free time it should be spent diligently. If he then chooses to do only the minimum thirty minutes then I guess he chooses to punish himself. I love when they punish themselves. It does inspire a get it done attitude while allowing you to be firm, understanding, and downright sweet.

[2squared]

When there was a job to do along those lines, I got all the kids out there to help and I stayed with them, directing, encouraging, watching, and teaching when needed. (I also never paid them. We all benefited from making our living circumstances.)

 

As they got older, I would get them started, stay a while, and go do something else, checking on them frequently. Or working nearby at something else so I could encourage them as they worked. This slowly morphed into less and less involvement on my part.

 

Another thing that seemed to help my kids work was taking breaks when they needed it. And planning fun stuff to do at the end of the day.

 

Fwiw, our grown kids have fond memories of all the work we did around our house/property. Just the other day we were looking at some old photos and one dd exclaimed, "Wow, I had forgotten how much work we did on that house." And then she proceeded to list all kinds of things we had done - together, just me and the kids. It can truly be a great bonding activity, working around your home with your kids. :)

This is exactly how I would handle such situations, and it has been a very effective approach for me.

[Guest]

Only "punishment" he needs is no pay. You didn't tell him to do it as part of being a family. You didn't give him consequences if he didn't do it. You made an agreement to pay him. If it was a neighbor kid, you wouldn't punish...you simply wouldn't pay. No payment is a natural consequence for not finishing a job....which is what it was in this case.

[maize]

Only "punishment" he needs is no pay. You didn't tell him to do it as part of being a family. You didn't give him consequences if he didn't do it. You made an agreement to pay him. If it was a neighbor kid, you wouldn't punish...you simply wouldn't pay. No payment is a natural consequence for not finishing a job....which is what it was in this case.

 

So, I think it can be helpful to think "if this were a neighbor kid how would I respond?"--it removes us from the emotion that can take over when our own kids mess up.

 

Personally, if the neighbor kid had done a good job that was 2/3rds of the way complete I would in fact give him 2/3 pay.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Just becsuse a fictional 6 or 7 year old can do any job, no matter how hard, because she has a heart of pure gold and the motivation of someone with a fully developed prefrontal cortex... I

 

1. She wasn't fictional, and

2. she couldn't do it. At least, she couldn't do it easily and well, as she'd assumed she would.

 

That's what the story was about -- she was totally in over her head, cried herself to sleep every night and had blisters on her little hands, told her Daddy she hated him, and took about ten times longer to finish the job than an older child would have required.

 

I thought of the story, too, when I read the OP. A parent could do like the Dad in the story and make her see it through (and then lavishly reward her beyond the promised pay), or they could just get out there and help them. (I choose the second option.)

[mommymonster]

Well, the being the "bigger person" worked out well. DS10 and I went out and finished up the fence last night (after a snack, but before dinner). We actually had a ball -- it didn't take too long, and I was sure to give him breaks to keep him from getting frustrated. It was also a warm day, so the manky pressure washer water actually cooled us down. We head to the river with friends in a few hours for a picnic and swimming. 

 

One thing that I did realize is that I'm probably treating DS10 like an older/more mature kiddo than he is, as he's almost as tall as me (I'm pretty short). It's just a disconnect. My head keeps saying, to DS10, "you are basically as tall as me, eat more than me, have bigger feet than me, you should really be able to [insert thing]."  And of course, we're working on just tons of skills (slowly and steadily), but it's this disconnect on my part. 

 

[idnib]

I'll stay out of the chore discussion because I think you've gotten great advice, but I can't help adding that a pressure washer can be quite dangerous and you may want to reconsider having a 10 year old use it. Here's an article by Consumer Reports about the topic. If you look on youtube you can find videos of various injuries, plus using pressure washers to cut pumpkins, boards, etc.

[maize]

Well, the being the "bigger person" worked out well. DS10 and I went out and finished up the fence last night (after a snack, but before dinner). We actually had a ball -- it didn't take too long, and I was sure to give him breaks to keep him from getting frustrated. It was also a warm day, so the manky pressure washer water actually cooled us down. We head to the river with friends in a few hours for a picnic and swimming. 

 

One thing that I did realize is that I'm probably treating DS10 like an older/more mature kiddo than he is, as he's almost as tall as me (I'm pretty short). It's just a disconnect. My head keeps saying, to DS10, "you are basically as tall as me, eat more than me, have bigger feet than me, you should really be able to [insert thing]."  And of course, we're working on just tons of skills (slowly and steadily), but it's this disconnect on my part. 

 

Oh, this is so true about fast growing kids! I've noticed that when kids look older than they are--especially tall boys--we adults just automatically expect them to act older. 

 

The reverse is true as well--petite little kids who look younger than their age get way lower expectations. 

 

I'm so glad things worked out for you and your ds.