My children are plotting against me

[eternalsummer]

for me, a hill to die on is something that is worth sacrificing the relationship over.  It is not restricted just to relationships between parents and children.  For instance, I don't like some of the ways my daughter's school works - the administration is lax at responding to emails, they're consistently disorganized, they focus on some things I think are a bit of a waste of time (lots of knitting and watercolors, etc.).  None of those things, for me, is a hill to die on.

 

However, there are several things that *would* be a hill to die on - for DS, he was having some trouble with the kids in his class and when I mentioned it to his teacher she said bullying was a normal part of the Waldorf method at that age and built empathy.  They also refused to accelerate his academics (or allow him to do things at his academic level, like free reading) because his knitting skills were poor and they believe the body must be caught up to the brain or the person will turn out crooked or something.  Those were hills to die on, and we withdrew him.

[Ausmumof3]

You don't see any difference between brushing your teeth and wearing wrinkled clothes? One is victimless assuming no one can die from being judged by strangers. The other could lead to pain, hefty dental bills, even death if it really went too far.

Wearing wrinkled clothes could lead to loss of job opportunity at an interview lack of promotion for poor personal presentation etc. my kids do wear wrinkled clothes and I wouldn't kill myself over it but there are some good things about learning to look good.

[eternalsummer]

Yes, I would advise my kids to wear respectable clothes to a job interview (depending on the job) and we all wear respectable clothes when visiting elderly relatives who are more formal people (within reason).

 

This is a separate issue from regular folding of clothes, though.

[hornblower]

Wearing wrinkled clothes could lead to loss of job opportunity at an interview lack of promotion for poor personal presentation etc. my kids do wear wrinkled clothes and I wouldn't kill myself over it but there are some good things about learning to look good.

 

 

yeah but if you're 12 &  not going to an actual job interview?

 

  Just because a kid is wearing a wrinkled shirt at home, or to co-op or to run to the store doesn't mean you can't instruct them how to dress and present appropriately when they're applying for something or giving a presentation etc.  

 

I don't need my kid to look parade ready 24/7 just in case, kwim? 

[Tita Gidge]

People talk a lot about this "resenting a parent for years over (fill in the blank non-abusive issue)".  Who are these people who are still resenting their parents because they were required to fold their clothes?  Seriously?  I think their problems run a heck of a lot deeper than the clothes.  Their problem is they didn't grow up so they want to blame their parents for their continued childishness.

 

I think it's partially tied to the last half-century. We shifted from one model to another, as a society. We're currently operating (in large part, not in totality!) on a model that has transferred authority from the parent to the child.

 

To simplify greatly, for generations children were made to do things they didn't want to do. They weren't asked to do things. They weren't asked their opinions on doing things. It was considered playing one's part and it was a time where it was understood that family needs were collectively met. People would say, "That's just how it was" in accepting their part, however they felt about it.

 

The last half-century or so, children have been granted more empowerment. They're often asked if they'd like to do things. They're opinions are solicited and given great consideration. It's considered acceptable for every person in the family to express displeasure (etc.) even if playing one's part in meeting the family's needs. Add to that a relative secure economy, and people have the LUXURY of hyper-focusing on the wrongs of their childhood - regardless of their personal income, we're not under duress of famine, war, etc.

 

This newer model has pros and cons, both. However you consider it, though, I think it's clear that the transfer of authority has given rise to a confidence and freedom in claiming, owning, and expressing one's honest feelings. And as you say, some never emotionally mature beyond that childish phase of blaming the parents.

 

It truly sums up the trite expression: First World Problem!

[Ausmumof3]

Is the baby fairly new? I know when I've had a new baby I had to up some expectations with the kids because I couldn't do everything.

 

If that's the case Id try to frame it kind of like this. "Hey kids, family, guys )whatever you call them). I'm feeling under a fair bit of pressure right now with the new baby. I usually try to take care of everything so you have it pretty good. I'd really appreciate it if you could handle a bit more of the stuff around the house for a while till things are running more smoothly".

 

I'd try to avoid linking screen time as chores because that makes it feel like punishment. Just make the chores a part of life that have to happen because they have to happen. Even for me as an adult I find the zen approach of "just wash the dishes to wash the dishes" good. You know just doing the chores for their own sake and with focus without the stream of "everything I have to get done before I get to do what I want to run through my head".

 

In spite of the folded clothes comment Id probably just let go of that kind of stuff for a while. If you really care you might have to handle it yourself.

[hornblower]

I think it's partially tied to the last half-century. We shifted from one model to another, as a society. We're currently operating (in large part, not in totality!) on a model that has transferred authority from the parent to the child.

 

To simplify greatly, for generations children were made to do things they didn't want to do. They weren't asked to do things. They weren't asked their opinions on doing things.... <snip> 

 

but also, children were considered grown up much earlier. The concept of this teenaged person going on & on & being dependent on you & having to listen to you is relatively new. 

 

if you look at something like Children in the Middle Ages and Renaissance by Classen (ed) you can see that what children were & their role in society was hardly constant & definitely not as protracted as we have it now. 

 

This is obviously a modern problem but I don't think it's solely rooted in concepts of authority but also in concepts of what adulthood & agency are. 

[Tita Gidge]

I have some teenage boys. They have a code that I finally cracked. Any objection they present ("I don't know how," "I'll do it after ...," "I didn't hear you ask me," "I thought you were asking someone else," "Huh?" or flat out ignoring the request) really means I DON'T WANT TO AND I DON'T SEE THE POINT OF [it].

 

Which, fine, okay. You don't have to want to nor do you need to see the point of it.  That describes a good half of my responsibilities as a mother and as a homeschooler! And yet stupid, mundane, seemingly pointless things still need to get done. So buck up, boys.

 

What has helped us is to have an equivalent in THEIR world - for most of my boys that is sports, but some also do scouts and one has done a co-op. They've all been in a group situation where someone didn't pull his or her weight. They've all been in a class, camp out or travel tournament with someone who is a slob or smelly.  For awhile, my third son was that smelly kid LOL despite my best efforts and weak gag reflex assuring him (it took social pressure). So even if they still think chores are stupid, boring, pointless, or worse - FOR SOMEONE ELSE TO DO - they know really and truly that life doesn't function that way. For me this didn't result in insta-cooperation, but it did re-frame things in their minds which helped overall. Is there a parallel in your kids' lives you can draw them to?

 

What else has helped is for me to present two options, and I'm 100% serious about enforcing them (which is why it's effective). I can do everything around the house by myself, but that leaves no time to chauffeur, to homeschool, or to do the extras I do. Or we can do the many hands makes light work thing and still maintain life as they know it. This was effective because of their extracurricular activities, and become MORE effective as they got older. Why? Because as they each got to driving age, I'd make them chauffeur younger siblings so I'd have time to do ALL THE CHORES myself. It became more desirable to load the dishes while I ran Younger Sib to lacrosse than to take Younger Sib to lacrosse and waste 90 minutes waiting for it to end - missing some social opportunities and even some extracurricular activities of their own. 

 

I'm of the passive-aggressive mindset that if you don't know how to do basic common sense actions, you must need extra practice at exercising your common sense. You really "don't know how to" put TP under the sink? Great, that saves me six hours a week of sitting at your baseball practice because surely you can't be quick enough to play the game. Although it's also worth evaluating if you have such specific standards that they've adopted a "why bother?" attitude knowing they'll be corrected or told they're doing it wrong. That's my natural personality so I've had to learn to let little things go - how the TP is stacked, how the towels are folded, etc. Easy to say, harder to do! 

[Farrar]

for me, a hill to die on is something that is worth sacrificing the relationship over.  It is not restricted just to relationships between parents and children.  For instance, I don't like some of the ways my daughter's school works - the administration is lax at responding to emails, they're consistently disorganized, they focus on some things I think are a bit of a waste of time (lots of knitting and watercolors, etc.).  None of those things, for me, is a hill to die on.

 

However, there are several things that *would* be a hill to die on - for DS, he was having some trouble with the kids in his class and when I mentioned it to his teacher she said bullying was a normal part of the Waldorf method at that age and built empathy.  They also refused to accelerate his academics (or allow him to do things at his academic level, like free reading) because his knitting skills were poor and they believe the body must be caught up to the brain or the person will turn out crooked or something.  Those were hills to die on, and we withdrew him.

 

Yes, I like that definition. I also think of it in situations other than with the kids. 

 

I also think of it as a sort of balance. I have a certain number of cards to play, tickets to redeem, whatever. The more I use those tickets on things the kids can see make a difference - things that are obviously tied to their safety and to consequences they can see, the more tickets I get to keep redeeming. They're kids, so sometimes, they won't see the value in doing something - a little kid won't necessarily see the long term value of brushing their teeth, for example. And there may be other things that are even harder to explain to kids but which are family rules that do really matter. In those cases, you're really redeeming tickets. But the more you tell a kid "just do it" or "because I said so" the more you're undermining the relationship and therefore, the fewer times you get to say it in the future. If I use all my tickets on neatly folded clothes, I may be out when a kid is refusing to do math or not helping with chores that need to be done or something worse like mistreating a friend or engaging in dangerous behavior that they think is fine. It's worth saving that cred up for those things - the things that are really past the line in the sand.

 

And it doesn't mean, if folded clothes are important (which, okay, to me, they're not - I don't even fold most of my own clothes) then it can still be a rule, you can still work on instilling it as a habit, especially when they're younger. But then when push comes to shove and the kids are shoving, you back off it because it's not worth it. And you whine to your mom friends or have a glass of wine and a chocolate bar and mourn their wrinkly appearance or take it out at the gym or whatever you do to blow off steam.

[amsunshine]

I have some teenage boys. They have a code that I finally cracked. Any objection they present ("I don't know how," "I'll do it after ...," "I didn't hear you ask me," "I thought you were asking someone else," "Huh?" or flat out ignoring the request) really means I DON'T WANT TO AND I DON'T SEE THE POINT OF [it].

 

Which, fine, okay. You don't have to want to nor do you need to see the point of it.  That describes a good half of my responsibilities as a mother and as a homeschooler! And yet stupid, mundane, seemingly pointless things still need to get done. So buck up, boys.

 

What has helped us is to have an equivalent in THEIR world - for most of my boys that is sports, but some also do scouts and one has done a co-op. They've all been in a group situation where someone didn't pull his or her weight. They've all been in a class, camp out or travel tournament with someone who is a slob or smelly.  For awhile, my third son was that smelly kid LOL despite my best efforts and weak gag reflex assuring him (it took social pressure). So even if they still think chores are stupid, boring, pointless, or worse - FOR SOMEONE ELSE TO DO - they know really and truly that life doesn't function that way. For me this didn't result in insta-cooperation, but it did re-frame things in their minds which helped overall. Is there a parallel in your kids' lives you can draw them to?

 

What else has helped is for me to present two options, and I'm 100% serious about enforcing them (which is why it's effective). I can do everything around the house by myself, but that leaves no time to chauffeur, to homeschool, or to do the extras I do. Or we can do the many hands makes light work thing and still maintain life as they know it. This was effective because of their extracurricular activities, and become MORE effective as they got older. Why? Because as they each got to driving age, I'd make them chauffeur younger siblings so I'd have time to do ALL THE CHORES myself. It became more desirable to load the dishes while I ran Younger Sib to lacrosse than to take Younger Sib to lacrosse and waste 90 minutes waiting for it to end - missing some social opportunities and even some extracurricular activities of their own. 

 

I'm of the passive-aggressive mindset that if you don't know how to do basic common sense actions, you must need extra practice at exercising your common sense. You really "don't know how to" put TP under the sink? Great, that saves me six hours a week of sitting at your baseball practice because surely you can't be quick enough to play the game. Although it's also worth evaluating if you have such specific standards that they've adopted a "why bother?" attitude knowing they'll be corrected or told they're doing it wrong. That's my natural personality so I've had to learn to let little things go - how the TP is stacked, how the towels are folded, etc. Easy to say, harder to do! 

 

Preach it, sister!

[Ausmumof3]

I have some teenage boys. They have a code that I finally cracked. Any objection they present ("I don't know how," "I'll do it after ...," "I didn't hear you ask me," "I thought you were asking someone else," "Huh?" or flat out ignoring the request) really means I DON'T WANT TO AND I DON'T SEE THE POINT OF [it].

 

Which, fine, okay. You don't have to want to nor do you need to see the point of it. That describes a good half of my responsibilities as a mother and as a homeschooler! And yet stupid, mundane, seemingly pointless things still need to get done. So buck up, boys.

 

What has helped us is to have an equivalent in THEIR world - for most of my boys that is sports, but some also do scouts and one has done a co-op. They've all been in a group situation where someone didn't pull his or her weight. They've all been in a class, camp out or travel tournament with someone who is a slob or smelly. For awhile, my third son was that smelly kid LOL despite my best efforts and weak gag reflex assuring him (it took social pressure). So even if they still think chores are stupid, boring, pointless, or worse - FOR SOMEONE ELSE TO DO - they know really and truly that life doesn't function that way. For me this didn't result in insta-cooperation, but it did re-frame things in their minds which helped overall. Is there a parallel in your kids' lives you can draw them to?

 

What else has helped is for me to present two options, and I'm 100% serious about enforcing them (which is why it's effective). I can do everything around the house by myself, but that leaves no time to chauffeur, to homeschool, or to do the extras I do. Or we can do the many hands makes light work thing and still maintain life as they know it. This was effective because of their extracurricular activities, and become MORE effective as they got older. Why? Because as they each got to driving age, I'd make them chauffeur younger siblings so I'd have time to do ALL THE CHORES myself. It became more desirable to load the dishes while I ran Younger Sib to lacrosse than to take Younger Sib to lacrosse and waste 90 minutes waiting for it to end - missing some social opportunities and even some extracurricular activities of their own.

 

I'm of the passive-aggressive mindset that if you don't know how to do basic common sense actions, you must need extra practice at exercising your common sense. You really "don't know how to" put TP under the sink? Great, that saves me six hours a week of sitting at your baseball practice because surely you can't be quick enough to play the game. Although it's also worth evaluating if you have such specific standards that they've adopted a "why bother?" attitude knowing they'll be corrected or told they're doing it wrong. That's my natural personality so I've had to learn to let little things go - how the TP is stacked, how the towels are folded, etc. Easy to say, harder to do!

Love this little bit of wisdom.

[TammyS]

 

 

Wrinkliness of clothing is not a matter of minimum social acceptability (or, I would argue, average social acceptability), esp. within the social groups of teenagers :)

 

 

Re: telling kids that they have to do what I say because I support them financially - that is a recipe for disaster imo.  will your daughters, if they are stay at home wives, have to do what their husbands say because they don't make money?

 

I'm not interested in what is acceptable in a social group of teenagers.  I'm not raising them to be teenagers. 

 

Telling kids that they have to do while they live under my roof ....conflated to wives obeying husbands.  Um, ok. :rolleyes:

[TammyS]

You don't see any difference between brushing your teeth and wearing wrinkled clothes? One is victimless assuming no one can die from being judged by strangers. The other could lead to pain, hefty dental bills, even death if it really went too far.

 

Wearing presentable (not pulled out of the bottom of a pile, wrinkled up) clothes is part of grooming.  It all goes together.  So while there is a difference, the difference isn't the issue.  You can let your kids not ever comb their hair and it gets mats and that's victimless, too.  So what?  I mean, if that's your standard, fine.  It's not mine.  I require my kids to be groomed, including decent clothes.

[TammyS]

And if we are arguing tradition, which I am happy to do (I believe in the value of traditional practices, largely speaking) - young men at this age do not, in most tribal societies (what we were for presumably millennia, vs the last few hundred years) come under the authority of their mothers anymore.  It is precisely the age for men to rebel against female authority because it is the age at which they come under male authority, and take on male responsibilities.

 

If you want to promote a traditional arrangement, the DH will have to start instructing the boys on what to do, and it will not be housework :)  The OP must do all of that for her young men, while they learn to hunt and protect the family and provide and etc.

 

We actually do this as much as possible.  It is hard on the young man and the mom to have mom too much the authority at a given point.

[Tanaqui]

I'm not interested in what is acceptable in a social group of teenagers.  I'm not raising them to be teenagers.

 

Are you raising them to think they're better than the people they're with? When they're with teenagers, and they are a teenager, they should dress the part. When in Rome and all that.

 

[eternalsummer]

I'm not interested in what is acceptable in a social group of teenagers.  I'm not raising them to be teenagers. 

 

Telling kids that they have to do while they live under my roof ....conflated to wives obeying husbands.  Um, ok. :rolleyes:

 

You said pretty specifically that children/teenagers used to be more subject to adult authority, and implied this as a justification of your current attitude.

 

My argument is that at the time you are referencing, women were also subject to male authority.  There were benefits to both systems, but also trade-offs.

[eternalsummer]

Oh, unless you're talking about the argument that because you provide for someone financially, you get to tell them what to do.

 

In that case, the gender is irrelevant - it's just more common for the man to work and the woman not than the other way around.

 

But the logic holds; if you're saying that the reason you can tell your kids what to do is because you pay for them, then should all non-working spouses also be perfectly obedient  to the working spouse?  What about the elderly who live with you?

 

It's just not a logical argument, imo; it's also, tbh, somewhat degrading.

[mamaofgirls]

As they are pretty old, not little kids, I'd focus on things that actually matter - that you can defend.

 

So folding their laundry instead of just stuffing it in the drawers?  I'd give up on that one.  What is the point?  

 

Asking to be excused - I dunno, do you ask to be excused?  seems kind of overly formal, like something putting a barrier between you and the kids (which you definitely don't need right now).  

 

Helping out with the clearing of dishes - definitely worthwhile.  You can defend it, too, as in "we all help clean up after a meal" - make sure you and DH are also taking things in.  

 

I would leave the computer thing alone entirely.  Just forget about it; you could even say, "I didn't realize how great it would be to have less electronics in the house - we have a lot more time for other things now!  I'm getting off the computer too, for the summer. Let's look at it again when the summer is over."

 

Then get off the computer for the summer.  This will give you time to build the relationship - none of you have electronic distractions so you can interact with each other more directly.  It also eliminates the computer use as a bargaining chip - they're not trying to win them back, you're just seeing as a family if your dynamics and work ethic and habits can be changed more easily without electronic distractions.

When I was a child I once asked my dad why I had to make my bed if I was just going to mess it up sleeping. His response, "Why wipe your ass if you are going to $hit again."

 

I also teach my children to ask to be excused at the table, do you have young children?  My 3 year old would just run off after two minutes of eating if allowed... we eat together as a family, at a table not in front of the tv. A child needs to learn to be respectful of others at the table.

[eternalsummer]

We have lots of young children (as you can see from my sig) :)  None of us asks to be excused; we eat until we're done eating, then the person who is done puts their plate in the sink and runs off. 

 

We're not super formal people, though.  

 

We don't own a TV.

 

Our kids are respectful of us and we are of them; no one throws food (except the 1 year old, sometimes) and mostly they don't chew with their mouths open.  I don't make them stay at the table after they are done because they have lots of better things to do than sit and watch me eat (and so do I, if I finish before someone else).  I guess it's just a different kind of respect?  I respect their time and they respect mine.  We are all pretty busy (we work from home so there is never a shortage of things to do) and we're all together almost all day so it's not as formal a family time as it is with a work outside the home parent, maybe.

[eternalsummer]

I never make my bed, or require the kids to make theirs.  I do always wipe and require wiping :)  That would spread bacteria and cause rashes, right?  Not making the bed hasn't led to any health problems.

[hornblower]

When I was a child I once asked my dad why I had to make my bed if I was just going to mess it up sleeping. His response, "Why wipe your ass if you are going to $hit again."

 

I also teach my children to ask to be excused at the table, do you have young children?  My 3 year old would just run off after two minutes of eating if allowed... we eat together as a family, at a table not in front of the tv. A child needs to learn to be respectful of others at the table.

 

 

Huh.

& yet, I don't make my bed.    :leaving:

 

 & though it's not my normal,  I have eaten in front of the tv. Scandalous, I know. 

 

My kids were never required to ask to be excused. They stayed because they LIKED us, because they wanted to talk to us & we talked to them.  They've managed to grow into adults that are nice, polite, genuine, and have tons of manners. 

 

The op's kids are being little @##$%'s. I don't think anyone is saying ignore it. I know that I would be having a big serious talk with them about how this household runs & that they need to pull their weight. But some things should be more negotiable than others and we're suggesting areas where things can be eased a bit to make life pleasant for everyone. 

[Ausmumof3]

I never make my bed, or require the kids to make theirs. I do always wipe and require wiping :) That would spread bacteria and cause rashes, right? Not making the bed hasn't led to any health problems.

In fact leaving it to air can help kill dust mite...

 

http://www.sciencealert.com/making-your-bed-each-morning-makes-it-easier-for-dust-mites-to-breed-science-finds

 

I'm doing it for my health... 😆

[Ausmumof3]

Preach it, sister!

Just had to say the dog in your profile pic is so gorgeous!!!

[Tita Gidge]

but also, children were considered grown up much earlier. The concept of this teenaged person going on & on & being dependent on you & having to listen to you is relatively new. 

 

if you look at something like Children in the Middle Ages and Renaissance by Classen (ed) you can see that what children were & their role in society was hardly constant & definitely not as protracted as we have it now. 

 

This is obviously a modern problem but I don't think it's solely rooted in concepts of authority but also in concepts of what adulthood & agency are. 

 

In fact, it (the teenager) is a concept that came around at about the same time as the shift in authority - one need only go back to the turn of the century to see.

 

IMO the root of authority within the family is explicitly tied to the concepts of what adulthood and agency are. And the problem is a modern one in the sense that - as you say - in times past, these concepts were defined much differently than what we see today. It's a fascinating thing to study and discuss!

[Tita Gidge]

When I was a child I once asked my dad why I had to make my bed if I was just going to mess it up sleeping. His response, "Why wipe your ass if you are going to $hit again."

 

:smilielol5:  I got a good belly laugh out of this!

 

I was expected to make the bed when I was younger. I shared a bed with 1-2 sisters and we didn't wake up as a group. So we all got in trouble if the last one up didn't make it. I didn't see the point of it then, and still don't see the point of it now. I was usually that last one up, which made me a super popular sister!  I've never required my kids to make their beds. Some of them make their beds anyway. We tease each other about it.

 

I'd have never asked my parents why I had to make my bed. It didn't matter why, I knew that from an early age. It was just something I had to do by virtue of them telling me to. But I love that you did, and that this was his answer!  I'm loading it into my long-term memory bank to use at a future date ... for something other than bed making, of course. LOL

[Janeway]

People keep saying I shouldn't tell them they had to clean their rooms and I never said they had to clean their rooms. I said they had to take their Legos to their rooms. They take the Legos all over the house and then they end up on the floors and couches and everywhere. They are on the steps. I want the Legos in their rooms. They are welcome to make creations and place them on a shelf or even the mantel. They are welcome to take them out of their rooms and return them to their rooms when done. They are not welcome to leave them on the stairs, the floors all over the house, and so on. 

[Joker]

Do people really tell their children to ask to be excused from the table? In those actual words? I've never once used those words with my dds or told them they have to ask first. They are now almost 17 and 14 and neither have ever just got up and left the table in the middle of a meal. They've never left a restaurant table and never left a dinner at someone else's home either. Home is different and we eat and chat but they are welcome to leave after eating if they want. 

 

Mine also do their own laundry and I don't even check up on it anymore. They never wear wrinkled clothes to church or somewhere nice (like a recent school awards ceremony) but some everyday clothing is wrinkled if they stuff it somewhere. It's their thing and I don't get involved anymore. 

 

I would get on them about helping out with after dinner dishes and food. Mine help whenever ask and do what is asked. If they totally blew it off, we would have a discussion and I would probably ask them more frequently than normal to help out with those things for a bit to make sure they get it. 

 

I agree with those who say they would consider adjusting expectations, especially as they get older. 

[Tita Gidge]

People keep saying I shouldn't tell them they had to clean their rooms and I never said they had to clean their rooms. I said they had to take their Legos to their rooms. They take the Legos all over the house and then they end up on the floors and couches and everywhere. They are on the steps. I want the Legos in their rooms. They are welcome to make creations and place them on a shelf or even the mantel. They are welcome to take them out of their rooms and return them to their rooms when done. They are not welcome to leave them on the stairs, the floors all over the house, and so on. 

 

Yes, four of my boys were born within 6 years of each other. There was a time when Legos were like landmines, and scattered here, there and heretofore around my house. It definitely brought out my ugly side. I'd find them and just completely lose it. One here, one there - no biggie. Tons left all over because you can't or won't clean up attentively? We have a problem, boys.

 

So the solution was to transform the home into areas: LEGO-FRIENDLY and IF-I-FIND-A-LEGO-IN-THIS-SPACE-I-HAVE-ENOUGH-SONS-THAT-ONE-WILL-PAY-WITH-HIS-LIFE. The good news is that all of my sons are still living. The bad news is that there's an entire section of the house I rarely see, and that I had to keep the youngest kids out of. It was as much an issue of the little ones' safety as it was me hating to sit or step on Legos.  Can the Legos stay in their rooms? Or is there a small closet you can transform - a desk and some lighting - with some storage tubs underneath?

 

I also started to pick up the Legos as I found them. I kept them (and the nerf gun bullets). Once a year or so I'd announce Amnesty Day and say they could have everything back after they did [some gross chore I didn't want to do, like cleaning the fridge ... or some gross job that they didn't want to do, like massage my feet). If they wanted a confiscated item before that, they could pay me or trade it for an extra chore of my choosing. They had so many Legos that it wasn't as effective and I still got stuck picking up the stray parts, but it put all of us in a better frame of mind about it.

[Janeway]

On the laundry putting away, that is not even the main chore. BUT, what happens is, I constantly get "I have no shorts" and "I have no shirts" and "you need to buy me more shorts" and then attempts to sit around the house all day in PJs (the older one) or just undies (the younger one).  I do not expect them to fold shorts. I do expect shorts to make it to the shorts drawer. The way it looks right now is a handful of stuff shoved in to one drawer, and a handful in another drawer, and found two drawers of papers and junk and the rest tossed in the back of the closet. This was from the 14.5 yr old. And he wants me to buy him new clothes claiming he has none? So I dig these clothes out and find half of them belong to his siblings. Why did he put them in there? They were in his basket so they ended up in the drawers. He did not even glance at what he was putting in there, and he has not been in the drawers to dig out clothes for himself. He seems to think he is Howard Hughes based on his day to day wardrobe. But, he has plenty of time for hours of computer work. Cannot figure out how to even glance at what he is shoving in the drawers to make sure it is his, or to get his own clothes out later, but can figure out tons of stuff on the computer. 

[amsunshine]

Just had to say the dog in your profile pic is so gorgeous!!!

Thank you -- that was when she was just a babe. :001_wub:

[Joker]

On the laundry putting away, that is not even the main chore. BUT, what happens is, I constantly get "I have no shorts" and "I have no shirts" and "you need to buy me more shorts" and then attempts to sit around the house all day in PJs (the older one) or just undies (the younger one).  I do not expect them to fold shorts. I do expect shorts to make it to the shorts drawer. The way it looks right now is a handful of stuff shoved in to one drawer, and a handful in another drawer, and found two drawers of papers and junk and the rest tossed in the back of the closet. This was from the 14.5 yr old. And he wants me to buy him new clothes claiming he has none? So I dig these clothes out and find half of them belong to his siblings. Why did he put them in there? They were in his basket so they ended up in the drawers. He did not even glance at what he was putting in there, and he has not been in the drawers to dig out clothes for himself. He seems to think he is Howard Hughes based on his day to day wardrobe. But, he has plenty of time for hours of computer work. Cannot figure out how to even glance at what he is shoving in the drawers to make sure it is his, or to get his own clothes out later, but can figure out tons of stuff on the computer. 

 

Do they have things they want to do outside of the home? I wouldn't go digging through their clothes. If my dds don't do their laundry, then they don't have clothes to wear and miss out on something. Or they have to wear dirty clothes or something they don't want to in order to go. It doesn't take that happening too often, at least here, for them to do what they need to.

[eternalsummer]

On the laundry putting away, that is not even the main chore. BUT, what happens is, I constantly get "I have no shorts" and "I have no shirts" and "you need to buy me more shorts" and then attempts to sit around the house all day in PJs (the older one) or just undies (the younger one).  I do not expect them to fold shorts. I do expect shorts to make it to the shorts drawer. The way it looks right now is a handful of stuff shoved in to one drawer, and a handful in another drawer, and found two drawers of papers and junk and the rest tossed in the back of the closet. This was from the 14.5 yr old. And he wants me to buy him new clothes claiming he has none? So I dig these clothes out and find half of them belong to his siblings. Why did he put them in there? They were in his basket so they ended up in the drawers. He did not even glance at what he was putting in there, and he has not been in the drawers to dig out clothes for himself. He seems to think he is Howard Hughes based on his day to day wardrobe. But, he has plenty of time for hours of computer work. Cannot figure out how to even glance at what he is shoving in the drawers to make sure it is his, or to get his own clothes out later, but can figure out tons of stuff on the computer. 

Well, if you know they have shorts and shirts, why would you buy them more?  That is a natural consequence (not being able to find clothes when you need them) and I would just let it work on its own :)  Once or twice of not being able to go somewhere on time because you can't find anything suitable to wear will probably do a lot more to change habits than any amount of nagging (ime)

[amsunshine]

On the laundry putting away, that is not even the main chore. BUT, what happens is, I constantly get "I have no shorts" and "I have no shirts" and "you need to buy me more shorts" and then attempts to sit around the house all day in PJs (the older one) or just undies (the younger one).  I do not expect them to fold shorts. I do expect shorts to make it to the shorts drawer. The way it looks right now is a handful of stuff shoved in to one drawer, and a handful in another drawer, and found two drawers of papers and junk and the rest tossed in the back of the closet. This was from the 14.5 yr old. And he wants me to buy him new clothes claiming he has none? So I dig these clothes out and find half of them belong to his siblings. Why did he put them in there? They were in his basket so they ended up in the drawers. He did not even glance at what he was putting in there, and he has not been in the drawers to dig out clothes for himself. He seems to think he is Howard Hughes based on his day to day wardrobe. But, he has plenty of time for hours of computer work. Cannot figure out how to even glance at what he is shoving in the drawers to make sure it is his, or to get his own clothes out later, but can figure out tons of stuff on the computer. 

So, I think this is when you just let them wear whatever they want and let them know in no uncertain terms that you are not willing to buy them new clothes because they have enough.  They are responsible for making sure the clothes they have are laundered and put away such that they are able to locate items of clothing when they need it.  If they can't find anything other than underwear - they are to stay in their room(s) (if you are not comfortable with them in other areas of the house).  If all they can find is underwear and pajamas, you are not willing to drive them to their respective activities, etc.  My guess is they will figure out very quickly how to do their laundry and put it away.  

 

This is a phase, mama -- I think all teens go through this to some degree.  Stick to your guns - you can do this.  Practice calmly saying "I love you, but I'm not willing to....(fill in the blank) if your chores are not done".  You have three other youngers to look after -- you don't have time to deal with these teenaged shenanigans. It will take time to train them, but it will happen if they see you are loving but firm!

[Janeway]

See, that's why no computer. They don't want to leave the house, they want computer.

 

Regardless, it's working. I see progress, but it's in baby steps.

[TammyS]

Are you raising them to think they're better than the people they're with? When they're with teenagers, and they are a teenager, they should dress the part. When in Rome and all that.

 

So, if you had a kid who was neat by nature, would you make them wrinkle up some clothes before they went to hang out with other teenagers, because "when in Rome"?

 

Am I raising them to be better than others globally?  No.  Am I raising them to be neater than people who shove their clothes in a drawer? Yes.

[TammyS]

In fact, it (the teenager) is a concept that came around at about the same time as the shift in authority - one need only go back to the turn of the century to see.

 

IMO the root of authority within the family is explicitly tied to the concepts of what adulthood and agency are. And the problem is a modern one in the sense that - as you say - in times past, these concepts were defined much differently than what we see today. It's a fascinating thing to study and discuss!

 

It's actually a thing that makes me crazy.  We are increasingly told to "respect our children" and "give them more autonomy earlier", yet we are simultaneously held responsible for them for longer and longer periods of time.  We are expected to keep them on our insurance until they are 26! (I was married with children at that age and would never have conceived of asking my parents for anything) and pay for their college and support them after college, etc, etc, etc.

 

It seems to me that we are to have all of the responsibility for these young people, but no authority. 

[bolt.]

It's actually a thing that makes me crazy. We are increasingly told to "respect our children" and "give them more autonomy earlier", yet we are simultaneously held responsible for them for longer and longer periods of time.

 

...

 

It seems to me that we are to have all of the responsibility for these young people, but no authority.

Yes, it's almost like parenting is a selfless exercise with intangible rewards and many struggles as our infants slowly become our peers. 😉

 

However, providing for and "coaching" mature teens and young adults -- is not the same as the responsibility we have towards younger children in the area of managing their behaviour and development. Those areas of responsibility become quite minimal, thankfully. Autonomy and competence are rewarding, not annoying, to most parents (once they get used to the idea).

Edited June 2, 2016 by bolt.

[Bluegoat]

Yeah, I would I think not sweat the bad looking clothes thing.  If they look bad, that is their issue.  I have for my kids pointed out that not treating their clothes properly means they get worn out, and my budget to replace them is limited.  If I have to buy new stuff for them that comes out of something else they want.

 

My main suggestions are practical.  I think overall, it is more effective to work on one, or one type of chore, at a time.  Even for myself, establishing a new habit is hard, and if I try and do too much at once it isn't that effective.

 

And - try to find a way to help remind them without nagging.  Every time you say "don't forget X," or, "you forgot Y" you get nowhere in establishing the habit, you just set up a habit of doing things when they are reminded.  Even if you have to say "go back to the table until everything that you need to do is done" it is better than saying it directly.

 

As for table excusing, my family all did it, adults and kids.  When I was at university and in the army in any formal situation we all had to do it.  At dinner engagements we did it.  My feeling it is basic etiquette for everyone not just kids, so as long as parents are doing it to, it's just polite.  You don't just walk abouy from an interaction or conversation without a word.

 

I would not worry about computer stuff, given the benefits you are seeing I'd do it for the whole summer.

[Bluegoat]

but also, children were considered grown up much earlier. The concept of this teenaged person going on & on & being dependent on you & having to listen to you is relatively new. 

 

if you look at something like Children in the Middle Ages and Renaissance by Classen (ed) you can see that what children were & their role in society was hardly constant & definitely not as protracted as we have it now. 

 

This is obviously a modern problem but I don't think it's solely rooted in concepts of authority but also in concepts of what adulthood & agency are. 

 

I sort of agree - they were adults, and I think the added responsibilities of that made a difference to self-image.

 

I don't know that I would say that in general it meant they were out from parental or other authority.  People lived with parents a lot longer, and in a lot of cultures even when married, and the elders in the group really did rule the roost.  In fact I'd almsot be inclined to say that for many, being under real authority went on a lot longer into adulthood.

[Bluegoat]

Also - the crappy looking clothes thing will sort itself out in a few years.  Unless they are destined to be rumpled Columbo-types, which IMO you can do nothing about, they will start to care about it once their interest in romance starts to become a little more pronounced.

[thessa516]

Do people really tell their children to ask to be excused from the table? In those actual words? I've never once used those words with my dds or told them they have to ask first. They are now almost 17 and 14 and neither have ever just got up and left the table in the middle of a meal. They've never left a restaurant table and never left a dinner at someone else's home either. Home is different and we eat and chat but they are welcome to leave after eating if they want. 

 

 

Yes, we do. We teach/taught them when they were young, and now my 10 & 12 year old either ask "May I please be excused?" or "Please excuse me." Also, DH and I say "Please excuse me" if we need to get up during meal time. It sounds so formal written out, but it's a very natural, informal routine in our home.  It seems about on the same level as saying please and thank you.

[TechWife]

Do people really tell their children to ask to be excused from the table? In those actual words?

 

...

 

I agree with those who say they would consider adjusting expectations, especially as they get older.

Yes, those exact words! I was raised this way as well. The habit is gradually replaced as good conversational skills are developed. I actually had a child who didn't eat unless prompted due to ADHD. He was that distracted. So yes, he needed to check in with us before he left the table. There were many times when he hadn't even touched his food when he asked.

 

I grew up in a home with five children. By the time my parents finished getting food on plates, helping with cutting, etc. some of us were finished eating. We all stayed at the table until everyone was finished eating. Asking to be excused was one of the ways we were taught to be aware and considerate of others. Should someone have to eat alone because they were helping someone else and delaying their own meal?

[Bluegoat]

Yes, generally growing up we were taught that it is rude to leave the table while others are still eating.  Usually when we were small they would tell us we were excused when everyone was done  eating - we weren't necessarily expected to sit while the adults talked and had coffee and tea.  But, it was rude to leave before that, and we were told that the meal was not just about eating, but about being social.  So to just get up and leave would be a bit like sneaking off from a party without saying good-bye to the hosts - not normally polite.  And going off to watch tv or something similar rather than socializing wasn't considered very friendly.

[TammyS]

Yes, it's almost like parenting is a selfless exercise with intangible rewards and many struggles as our infants slowly become our peers. 😉

 

However, providing for and "coaching" mature teens and young adults -- is not the same as the responsibility we have towards younger children in the area of managing their behaviour and development. Those areas of responsibility become quite minimal, thankfully. Autonomy and competence are rewarding, not annoying, to most parents (once they get used to the idea).

 

My peers don't expect me to support them and be responsible for them.  I don't think being expected to pay the insurance of an adult (who is only an adult when they want autonomy, but not an adult when the bill arrives), shell out thousands for their education, and then support them further after they are educated and into their 20s is "quite minimal". 

[Spryte]

Yes, those exact words! I was raised this way as well. The habit is gradually replaced as good conversational skills are developed. I actually had a child who didn't eat unless prompted due to ADHD. He was that distracted. So yes, he needed to check in with us before he left the table. There were many times when he hadn't even touched his food when he asked.

 

I grew up in a home with five children. By the time my parents finished getting food on plates, helping with cutting, etc. some of us were finished eating. We all stayed at the table until everyone was finished eating. Asking to be excused was one of the ways we were taught to be aware and considerate of others. Should someone have to eat alone because they were helping someone else and delaying their own meal?

Same here. Southern thing? :)

 

But at some age this naturally phased out. I'm thinking it was around 10 - 11? It just morphed into the kids understanding how to function at meal time, and use their manners. So, at 14.5, it might look like eating dinner with everyone, waiting for all people to stop and a pause in conversation, then, "thanks for dinner, the x was great. I need to go do homework. Can I help with anything before I start?" On some days the "can I help?" part might be forgotten, and we'd say, "sure, can you take x, y, z to the kitchen first?" Current 12 year old has this down, too. Though he has never once voluntarily uttered the words, "I need to go do homework." :D

 

Did this transition happen in your family, too? Do you recall the age?

 

Edited for dozens of typos. Apparently I need more coffee.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Spryte

[Noreen Claire]

I keep reading about children, especially older children, 'helping' in the house. That doesn't fly here. That mindset is based in the idea that, "These are someone else's jobs, and I am doing something extraordinarily nice to them to make their work easier". Nuh-hun.  :thumbdown:

 

We are a family, and the work that needs to be done in this house is not MY work, or DH's work, but the work of the entire family. You live here, you work. Housework, yard work, work to bring money into the house, whatever - we all do it and no one thinks that they are 'above' it. (Well, 20yr old does some days, but he no longer b*tches and moans about it, he just does it.)

 

OP - keep up the good work! We also demand that when you go out in public that you are presentable, neat & clean, and that you excuse yourself from the dinner table. Our kids go through phases when they fight it, but we stick to our guns and they come back around. This, too, shall pass!

[bolt.]

My peers don't expect me to support them and be responsible for them. I don't think being expected to pay the insurance of an adult (who is only an adult when they want autonomy, but not an adult when the bill arrives), shell out thousands for their education, and then support them further after they are educated and into their 20s is "quite minimal".

I was only saying that the "responsibility we have towards younger children in the area of managing their behaviour and development." Those *particular* areas of responsibility become "quite minimal" as they mature towards and past their 20's.

 

I'm not sure why anyone would want to keep them!

 

It's hard enough to continue the (optional) possibility of continuing to feed, house and educate them (if we want to give them those advantages), without imaging that I would *also* be responsible to continue to manage their behaviour, table manners, personal appearance, friendships, eating habits, transportation needs, personal health decisions, hygiene, and the rest of those parent-child things. I'll be happy to be done with those even (if I'm *choosing* not to be done with various kinds of bill/payment and co-housing issues).

 

But then, I start my kids paying for their own clothes (and other things) with their pocket money at age 10 -- so, you can see that I obviously value "autonomy" at a priority that is unusually high in my context/culture. That's ok with me.

 

I'm confused about who is "expecting" things about your parenting of young adults -- and why it bugs you. Some people cover their young adults fully, some partially, and some not at all. There's no universal standard that would result in harsh judgement against non-providers... So if you'd rather not, why not just cut them loose and wish them well? Lots of people do that.

 

(Insurance may be sticky, since it could be life-or-death, and I understand that you have new laws about manditory coverage? It's not an issue in my life so I'm not really able to address that aspect intelligently.)

[Bluegoat]

I do find this idea of controlling kids behavior that they are old enough to stat managing on their own, because you have control of money, really off-putting.  I think it is a rather manipulative mindset, not that different than saying teh breadwinner gets to call the shots for the SAH spouse.

 

Parents provide for kids becuase that is part of their role.  In our society, for longer than in some, for all kinds of reasons.  Young people growing up take on more and more self-management and personal autonomy.

 

They are not directly related.

[TechWife]

Same here. Southern thing? :)

 

But at some age this naturally phased out. I'm thinking it was around 10 - 11? It just morphed into the kids understanding how to function at meal time, and use their manners. So, at 14.5, it might look like eating dinner with everyone, waiting for all people to stop and a pause in conversation, then, "thanks for dinner, the x was great. I need to go do homework. Can I help with anything before I start?" On some days the "can I help?" part might be forgotten, and we'd say, "sure, can you take x, y, z to the kitchen first?" Current 12 year old has this down, too. Though he has never once voluntarily uttered the words, "I need to go do homework." :D

 

Did this transition happen in your family, too? Do you recall the age?

 

Edited for dozens of typos. Apparently I need more coffee.

Maybe it is regional, I hadn't thought of that. I do remember it phasing out at some point. Middle/high school sounds about right. With my ds it was probably early high school. He's home for the summer and said it last week and we all giggled because it seemed out of place.

[bolt.]

These "excused from table" manners seems to be among those that vary by region and family. Of course there is nothing wrong with training your kids in your own family culture and habits... But it's not actually offensive to everyone when kids and adults find other ways to be tactful about leaving the dinner table.

 

In my family we all just sort of know when the meal is concluding (and people can leave) and when its ongoing (and it's too soon to leave). I don't remember teaching it, and I don't know how we can 'tell'... But it works. It doesn't feel like anyone is being disrespectful.