My children are plotting against me

[Janeway]

OK..previously, I took away the computers, completely, 100%. I let things sit. They knew why they were taken away. But, they took about ten days to ask me when they will get them back. I explained to them when. I said 1) when you finish your chores, not just once, but as a habit for a few days or even a week  2) when all of this past school years work is done 3) your attitudes change (and I explained the attitude issue). I also said when they do get them back, they will have less hours on them. Fine.

 

Today, I reminded them of what they need to do and I reminded them yesterday. I am feeling guilty it has been so long. But sheesh!

 

Here is an example, one of many...we ate in the backyard, we grilled. Great. Both boys got up and walked away the moment they were done eating (they are supposed to ask to be excused). I went to them and brought them back. I told the to carry the dishes and everything else in. They did, for the most part. I was in the kitchen doing dishes at the time, and I carried some things in too. I went back and checked their work and they had forgotten things. Realize, they are 12 and 14.5 yrs old. I said carry everything in, plus, some hot dog buns fell to the ground, so please throw those away. I went back inside. I ended up taking the baby upstairs and giving him a bath and breastfeeding and my attention also got turned to the small children. Today, I come out and realize they did not go back and do what I asked. The moment my back was turned, they ditched the job. And it rained last night so the buns are now wet and such and there is more work involved to clean them up. 

 

SO, right now, they are downstairs, supposed to pick up and they are discussing how unreasonable I am. I asked that 12 yr old get Legos back to his room and the books back on his shelf. I asked both kids to put away their own laundry. 12 yr old has not done his part and as far as the laundry goes, 14 yr old just stuffed them in various drawers, not even the correct drawers and nothing is folded or hung up. 

 

I am not their slave. Their chores are not unreasonable. I spend more time trying to get them to do their chores than they do actually doing the chores. Oh, this morning, while I was cleaning the kitchen, I asked 12 yr old to put the new TP under the sink in the bathroom. "I don't know how." Well, under the cupboard, in the bathroom, just make sure they are to the left." "I don't get it!" "umm, here, in the bathroom, the only cupboard, under here." "I just don't know what you mean." 

 

These are the games I deal with. I know, I need to lose the guilt and just stay strong on this. They can figure out elaborate things on the computers and spend hours on them, but cannot take 15 minutes to put away their own laundry or put away their own shoes. 

 

The improvement we have seen though, before we took away the computers, they would not even read a book. They sat around complaining they had nothing to do ever time their computers shut off (parental controls with time limits). Their computer time seemed holy to them. And in between, they would just sit there and whine or even go take a nap until their next computer time. Now, they have taken to reading books, riding bikes, and even swimming. So this is definitely an improvement. I am very happy with this improvement. 

[TammyinTN]

Honestly,  they wouldn't be getting the computers back if they acted like that all summer.  I would seriously retrain them if it meant they had to stay with me all day, every single day.   They are to old to be acting that way to their mother.   

 

 

[Guest]

Make little "how to" charts like they are 5yrs old.

I would also write out and post in several prominate places the requirements you specified for the return of their electronics.

My Son 2 likes to pull the little "what? I don't get it games." I don't play. I tell him to figure it out and don't come out until you do.

You could try the "I will feed you when you have done what I asked" routine.

Teens...so fun.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bolt.]

I think you'd all be happier if you release yourself from the idea that they need to earn back their computers quickly, or, ever (well, there's college, I guess). If they and you are fine without computers for a while, just plan on a screen free summer and work on chore habits gradually without irritation.

 

"Working gradually without irritation" means focusing on developing one skill at a time, using positive methods -- starting with fully supervising the first dozen-or-so iterations of the task-in-focus, before stepping back into semi-supervision, then to checking-after, then to checking occasionally.

 

If you want these teens to make changes in how they do chores, it has to be your project to guide and oversee the skill development. It will take some focused time out of your days for the next while to get them on track. Habits take 3 weeks to form.

[hornblower]

I'd let go of their clothing & their rooms though. Right around 13, that became a non issue here.  The kids became responsible for their own laundry & putting away & I don't care what their room looks like. It's their room. Only rule is to bring out food & dishes every day. 

The other situation I don't quite understand. I have a question - are these both male children? And do they have a male role model who does these household chores in the house? 

[Farrar]

I'd be careful about treating them like younger children. This is an age when kids are crying out for meaningful work and responsibilities as well as to be treated more grown up. Obviously, they're not acting like they deserve that sort of treatment, but they're also still kids and the resentment and anger may just grow the more you treat them like they're very young or not very smart. Don't engage when they're baiting you, just refuse to go talk down to them about where something is or how to do something simple - it's obviously what they want because it gives them fuel for saying you're so mean (and probably that you treat them like "babies").

 

I'd think about what to let go of and what's the hills to die on. Can their rooms be their rooms? And then you dig in about things like the dishes? Can you let go of habits like, "May I be excused?" when they aren't perfect but dig in about other rudeness?

 

I'd praise them for the positive changes and focus on that with them. I'd try to see the whole situation as less oppositional as you're approaching it. You have to get through this hard age together. They're not against you - and you're not against them - you're both in tough times. And I'd look for ways for them to have bigger jobs than tidying up minor stuff (not that they shouldn't have to do that too). Is there something they can take responsibility for really on their own, a home improvement project, a patch of the garden, a volunteer job outside the house they could do, a way for them to make money mowing lawns around the neighborhood... just something that's bigger that takes responsibility.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Farrar

[gypsymama]

I wouldn't worry about a timeline to the return of the computers especially with kids that age. They'll get them back when they make the improvements whether that's this week or next year. They know what's up. 

 

I would also consider altering expectations and changing chores just to lower my stress. I gave up a while back on laundry and I'm much happier. Laundry is sorted into piles per person. I fold/put away my clothes and dh's. The kids each get their pile and put them away. How they do that (hanging, folding, or even just shoving in drawers) is their business. I only require that they are put away and that "good" clothes are hung properly, all else is up to them. 

 

I will soon be assigning a different color towel/washcloth per person so I know who to yell at for leaving them laying around crazy. (We hang our towels instead of using them just once) I am also considering getting a dish set per person in different colors and making these goobers wash their own dishes because darn it I'm sick of washing all the dishes for 6 people 3+ times a day plus cooking plus grocery shopping plus plus plus. 

 

Look for ways you can lighten the load on yourself and make them more responsible for their own things. No need to argue or fight about it. "Oh you didn't get dinner? Hmm... did you have your plate clean so I could make it? If not might want to wash it and get yourself some dinner." " "Socks? Idk... where'd you put them when you put up your clothes?" Also I agree with the not worrying about their rooms being clean. I require basics but not general tidiness. No food/drink (other than a water bottle) are allowed out of the kitchen. All clothes and towels have to be brought out of the room and bedding has to be changed when I wash bedding. Past that I wouldn't worry about it much .... maybe require a full cleaning once a month, every two weeks, whatever to get vacuuming, etc. done then let the rest of it go. 

[Seasider]

I'd be careful about treating them like younger children. This is an age when kids are crying out for meaningful work and responsibilities as well as to be treated more grown up. Obviously, they're not acting like they deserve that sort of treatment, but they're also still kids and the resentment and anger may just grow the more you treat them like they're very young or not very smart. Don't engage when they're baiting you, just refuse to go talk down to them about where something is or how to do something simple - it's obviously what they want because it gives them fuel for saying you're so mean (and probably that you treat them like "babies").

 

I'd think about what to let go of and what's the hills to die on. Can their rooms be their rooms? And then you dig in about things like the dishes? Can you let go of habits like, "May I be excused?" when they aren't perfect but dig in about other rudeness?

 

I'd praise them for the positive changes and focus on that with them. I'd try to see the whole situation as less oppositional as you're approaching it. You have to get through this hard age together. They're not against you - and you're not against them - you're both in tough times. And I'd look for ways for them to have bigger jobs than tidying up minor stuff (not that they shouldn't have to do that too). Is there something they can take responsibility for really on their own, a home improvement project, a patch of the garden, a volunteer job outside the house they could do, a way for them to make money mowing lawns around the neighborhood... just something that's bigger that takes responsibility.

Farrah has a good point. I try to keep chores age appropriate. Of course they all need to develop good habits, but are they tasked with anything that would really cause them to both work hard earn a sense of accomplishment? Something that gives them a goal set that is meaningful, not just taking out the trash but installing a new garden bed or painting/renovating a garage or bonus room? These aren't kids, they are young men. Give them expectations they can rise to meet. Volunteer work is a great outlet - look for community organizations that will put these men to work!

[Valley Girl]

Farrah has a good point. I try to keep chores age appropriate. Of course they all need to develop good habits, but are they tasked with anything that would really cause them to both work hard earn a sense of accomplishment? Something that gives them a goal set that is meaningful, not just taking out the trash but installing a new garden bed or painting/renovating a garage or bonus room? These aren't kids, they are young men. Give them expectations they can rise to meet. Volunteer work is a great outlet - look for community organizations that will put these men to work!

 

Volunteering for others is certainly worthwhile. But the OP is frustrated because of the way her kids behave at home. Much of the work in life is not necessarily fulfilling. But we still have to do it. Personally, I need my kids to take out the trash and help out when I ask. That's more important to me than a new garden bed although I certainly do agree having goals and seeing meaningful results is important. I just don't think it will help the current problem. I struggle with some similiar issues, so that's where I'm coming from.

 

ETA: If I can't count on the kids to do the small stuff without having to hold their hands, I'm not going to trust them to do the bigger jobs that involve more work, more expense, and more potential for problems if they drop the ball.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Reluctant Homeschooler

[hornblower]

Personally, I need my kids to take out the trash and help out when I ask.

 

IMO, that is a relationship issue rooted in respect and teamwork. I'd be reframing all of this & looking at relationship building. 

[Seasider]

 

IMO, that is a relationship issue rooted in respect and teamwork. I'd be reframing all of this & looking at relationship building.

Yes! IME, the issues in our home that were similar to what the OP is experiencing pretty much resolved themselves once my teens got fairly independently involved in community service and part time jobs. Switches just flipped as their priorities changed. Trust me, there is a true trickle down effect.

[Farrar]

Volunteering for others is certainly worthwhile. But the OP is frustrated because of the way her kids behave at home. Much of the work in life is not necessarily fulfilling. But we still have to do it. Personally, I need my kids to take out the trash and help out when I ask. That's more important to me than a new garden bed although I certainly do agree having goals and seeing meaningful results is important. I just don't think it will help the current problem. I struggle with some similiar issues, so that's where I'm coming from.

 

ETA: If I can't count on the kids to do the small stuff without having to hold their hands, I'm not going to trust them to do the bigger jobs that involve more work, more expense, and more potential for problems if they drop the ball.

 

But it's all a big piece. And sometimes you can't fix one thing without fixing the bigger picture. Sometimes you solve one problem by focusing on something else. Sometimes the more we focus on a problem, the more the problem takes over. If we move the focus to something else - responsibility in another arena, in this case - and ease off it in the one that's causing the issues - responsibility around the house - then responsibility in general improves. It's easier to do the little things when you feel respected, important and fulfilled in general.

 

It's not a magic bullet, of course. There are no magic bullets, especially not for tweens, whose brains are growing like toddler brains and whose bodies are pumping full of hormones. And finding that thing that is both responsibility and not so high stakes that it can't be something that can fail, which is why I suggested something like a garden plot - they mess it up, that's rotten, but oh well, but they succeed and it's beautiful and can help the household. Anyway, it's just something to consider in addition to other solutions.

[Anne in CA]

I just wanted to say, screen time aside, that kids this age often do take more effort to get them to do the chores than doing everything yourself. The kids know that and play to it.

[fairfarmhand]

I have one kid who loved to push my buttons at those ages. What helped was being slightly oblivious but still persistent:

 

"Oh love, you did forget to get all the stuff off the picnic table. Please go back and remedy that."

 

"Whoops. Still mustard ketchup and pickles out there. Good girl. Thank you. You are such a help."

 

Not sarcastic or even fake. Just a doting auntie tone of voice. And once I proved that I was not going to let her off the hook and was not going to get annoyed, that I was just going to keep sending her back to complete the job, she finally started putting in some sort of effort.

 

This is the child who last week was castigating her younger sister for not completing the mowing according to the correct standard.

Edited June 1, 2016 by fairfarmhand

[TammyS]

I wouldn't worry about when they get screens back - and I wouldn't talk about it anymore.  In fact, now that you have explained what is required, I would absolutely refuse to talk about it any further.  They know what needs to be done and I wouldn't allow them to drag me into the emotional black hole of talking about it. 

 

"When are we getting screens back?" 

"When you've done all of the things that I told you about."

"But what are those? I don't remember?"

"Then you should have taken notes."

 

Also, you said their chores are not unreasonable.  I wonder - do they have enough chores?  I find kids are whiny and lazy when they have too little to do.  IMO, chores and schoolwork (or just chores if you are done with school for the year) should make up more of their time than anything else.  They need to learn to work and they need to learn that free time, like money, doesn't grow on trees.  If they want free time, they need to earn through work, just like money.

 

 

[foxbridgeacademy]

You might want to add a JAWM to your post.

[FriedClams]

I like the "take notes" comment!!!! I'm seeing a small spiral pad and pen in my teen's future!! I think it's brilliant. A great life skill to learn to listen to a boss and make sure to get all the details. I think a couple weeks of "get your pad" and "read it back" and you'll be set!! (Now, I'll buy 10 pads and charge $1/each after the first one for WHEN they lose it!)

[FriedClams]

I wouldn't worry about when they get screens back - and I wouldn't talk about it anymore. In fact, now that you have explained what is required, I would absolutely refuse to talk about it any further. They know what needs to be done and I wouldn't allow them to drag me into the emotional black hole of talking about it.

 

"When are we getting screens back?"

"When you've done all of the things that I told you about."

"But what are those? I don't remember?"

"Then you should have taken notes."

 

Also, you said their chores are not unreasonable. I wonder - do they have enough chores? I find kids are whiny and lazy when they have too little to do. IMO, chores and schoolwork (or just chores if you are done with school for the year) should make up more of their time than anything else. They need to learn to work and they need to learn that free time, like money, doesn't grow on trees. If they want free time, they need to earn through work, just like money.

Love this. Our kids could swap stories about their mean moms...except they'll be busy with chores!! I LOVE this!

[shawthorne44]

You could start adding work when they don't do the chore the first time, and taking more stuff away.  For example, if you are washing dishes and they don't bring all the dishes in, then it is now their job to also wash all the dishes they didn't bring in the first time.  All clothes not put away in the proper place get taken away until earned back with extra chores, or never.  

[hornblower]

The problem with punishments is that if they don't work, the only tool in your box is a bigger punishment and soon you're escalating to really unpleasant situations. 

[eternalsummer]

As they are pretty old, not little kids, I'd focus on things that actually matter - that you can defend.

 

So folding their laundry instead of just stuffing it in the drawers?  I'd give up on that one.  What is the point?  

 

Asking to be excused - I dunno, do you ask to be excused?  seems kind of overly formal, like something putting a barrier between you and the kids (which you definitely don't need right now).  

 

Helping out with the clearing of dishes - definitely worthwhile.  You can defend it, too, as in "we all help clean up after a meal" - make sure you and DH are also taking things in.  

 

I would leave the computer thing alone entirely.  Just forget about it; you could even say, "I didn't realize how great it would be to have less electronics in the house - we have a lot more time for other things now!  I'm getting off the computer too, for the summer. Let's look at it again when the summer is over."

 

Then get off the computer for the summer.  This will give you time to build the relationship - none of you have electronic distractions so you can interact with each other more directly.  It also eliminates the computer use as a bargaining chip - they're not trying to win them back, you're just seeing as a family if your dynamics and work ethic and habits can be changed more easily without electronic distractions.

[TammyS]

So folding their laundry instead of just stuffing it in the drawers?  I'd give up on that one.  What is the point?  

 

Asking to be excused - I dunno, do you ask to be excused?  seems kind of overly formal, like something putting a barrier between you and the kids (which you definitely don't need right now).  

 

 

I'm not the OP, but I'll answer these for my house.

 

The point of putting clothes away neatly is so that when I ask them to get dressed to go somewhere they don't look like little ragamuffins who just got out of bed because their clothes are all wrinkled from being shoved in a drawer unfolded.  And because I said so.

 

Yes, I do excuse myself when I get up from the table during a meal.  It's just polite.  When you are having a meal, you are engaged in an activity with those people and you don't just walk away from them.  It's rude.

[TammyS]

I like the "take notes" comment!!!! I'm seeing a small spiral pad and pen in my teen's future!! I think it's brilliant. A great life skill to learn to listen to a boss and make sure to get all the details. I think a couple weeks of "get your pad" and "read it back" and you'll be set!! (Now, I'll buy 10 pads and charge $1/each after the first one for WHEN they lose it!)

 

My teen is actually required to keep a notebook with him, because I got so tired of the willful forgetfulness of that which he didn't care to remember.  I don't actually tell him to take notes or anything, but I do use the notebook as a way to reinforce that it's his job to remember what I say and to pay attention to details, not my job to remind him, and that forgetfulness is not an excuse for anything.

 

Just the other day we were on the way to take him to work and he asked me when his appt for his physical was so that he could tell his boss.  I said I don't know, that's why I write things down.  He asked if he could look at my planner, but I didn't have it, because I was only leaving to take him to work.  I just shrugged and said it's not my job to carry a planner for him or to make sure he knows when his appointments are.  As it turned out, he got it wrong and had to arrange with his boss to be late on the day of his appointment, instead of having the morning off.  I'd like to think that will make the point, but knowing him it will take 8-10 more iterations of this before it sinks in.

[happi duck]

I use a modified version of the 3x5 chore card system from the book Sidetracked Home Executives.

 

One thing I like about using index cards is that there is room for instructions. I might put step by step instructions or just a reminder and/or a note about where supplies are stored.

 

These notes are meant for anyone not just kids. With a system like this the reply to "idk" is "look at the card" and the reminders are not singling anyone out.

[eternalsummer]

I'm not the OP, but I'll answer these for my house.

 

The point of putting clothes away neatly is so that when I ask them to get dressed to go somewhere they don't look like little ragamuffins who just got out of bed because their clothes are all wrinkled from being shoved in a drawer unfolded.  And because I said so.

 

Yes, I do excuse myself when I get up from the table during a meal.  It's just polite.  When you are having a meal, you are engaged in an activity with those people and you don't just walk away from them.  It's rude.

 

Ah, well if everyone does it as a matter of family culture, that makes sense.

 

eta: (second one!) do you *ask* to be excused?  Who do you ask?  Why?

 

Because I said so works pretty well with 5 year olds but I don't personally find it all that useful with older kids, and I hated it as a teenager.  Either you can defend it or you can't.

 

eta: it works okay with 5 year olds because they often can't understand or value the defense anyway - but for a teenager, if you can't explain why something is important to do or not do separate of "I am older than you" then I'm not sure how you justify it.

 

I don't mind wrinkled clothing; why does it matter for a teenager who also doesn't mind wrinkled clothing?  It is not obscene or reflective of uncleanness or anything like that.  

Edited June 1, 2016 by ananemone

[bolt.]

I'm not the OP, but I'll answer these for my house.

 

The point of putting clothes away neatly is so that when I ask them to get dressed to go somewhere they don't look like little ragamuffins who just got out of bed because their clothes are all wrinkled from being shoved in a drawer unfolded. And because I said so.

 

Yes, I do excuse myself when I get up from the table during a meal. It's just polite. When you are having a meal, you are engaged in an activity with those people and you don't just walk away from them. It's rude.

As a parent, drawing a firm disciplinary line at preventing wrinkles in your teen's look is an act of micromanagement. If they are given the freedom to express their own style through their clothing, they are going to go out with you looking a lot worse than ragamuffins!

 

---

 

And there is a difference between excusing yourself from the table and *asking* to be excused (being excused by someone else) -- if you have a family norm of that particular table manner, it's fine if you all say the same thing (ie 'excuse me') as you leave. If you want some people to ask permission ('may I be excused?') that's an unpleasant dynamic for teens of growing autonomy.

 

(I think the advice to focus on major issues and ignore minor things like wrinkles and child-specific table manners -- is right on the money, and well worth it.)

[happi duck]

We don't have a "may I be excused?" rule. However, we chat as we eat and no one just gets up and leaves. I might say "I have a show taped. Do you mind if I go watch it now?" The answer will probably be "sure" but it could be "can you hold on? I wanted to tell you all about something I read today."

 

So not really asking permission but still asking, kwim?

[amsunshine]

OP:  are there things that you are doing for the boys, ie., driving them to their sports practice or other "out of the house" activities?  If so, those are things to think about mom "going on strike" with.  For example, if chores aren't done, they don't get driven to the activity.  We always try to emphasize, with our new teens, that our family is a team and it takes teamwork to keep our family running and happy.  That means their age-appropriate chores need to be done, or the "dance taxi" in our house is out of service (the reason being mom has to do their chores in addition to her own).  We are also listening to the 7 habits of highly effective families together and it makes sense in terms of making sure we make deposits in each others' "emotional bank accounts".  When we support each other by pitching in, our accounts are all full.  When a family member refuses to pitch in, the accounts of the other members get close to being overdrawn.  Does this make sense?

 

We even joke about it sometimes, to lighten up the situation, and sometimes speak melodramatically about how the other person has just made a withdrawal from our emotional bank account, humph!  It always seems to help to laugh a little, too.

Edited June 1, 2016 by amsunshinetemp

[Farrar]

I guess I think 13 yos have a right to look like ragamuffins in slightly wrinkly clothes if they feel like it. Because, not a hill to die on. Also, because I said so, terrible reason if you want to build a relationship with your kids.

 

Of course, if you don't want to build the relationship, you just want to force them to comply, that's another matter. Maybe some people can make that fly with their kids. But these kids, who are already resentful and angry... when an unstoppable force meets another unstoppable force, who yields? And if no one yields, what's the endgame? And wouldn't it be better just to reroute the whole thing so that you don't end up with kids who resent you for years over folded clothes?

Edited June 1, 2016 by Farrar

[TammyS]

Ah, well if everyone does it as a matter of family culture, that makes sense.

 

eta: (second one!) do you *ask* to be excused?  Who do you ask?  Why?

 

Because I said so works pretty well with 5 year olds but I don't personally find it all that useful with older kids, and I hated it as a teenager.  Either you can defend it or you can't.

 

eta: it works okay with 5 year olds because they often can't understand or value the defense anyway - but for a teenager, if you can't explain why something is important to do or not do separate of "I am older than you" then I'm not sure how you justify it.

 

I don't mind wrinkled clothing; why does it matter for a teenager who also doesn't mind wrinkled clothing?  It is not obscene or reflective of uncleanness or anything like that.  

 

Explaining things to kids who actually want to know is something I'm happy to do.  But they hardly ever want to know.  They want to argue, which I don't allow, therefore "because I said so".  Occasionally, if I'm unsure, I'll ask them if they really want to know why, but that they have to know I'm giving them an explanation, not opening an argument.  No, I do not defend myself to my children. 

 

Why can't they go out wearing wrinkled clothes?  Why do they brush their teeth, or comb their hair, or bathe?  I tell them that when they are paying their own way they can live as slovenly ask they like, until then they will be decent.  Given that my kids live their lives in PJs at home, and jeans and Tshirts out of the house, I don't think requiring them to put their clothes neatly into their dresser is burdensome.  And if I'm wrong, oh well.  They'll just have to bear the burden.

[TammyS]

As a parent, drawing a firm disciplinary line at preventing wrinkles in your teen's look is an act of micromanagement. If they are given the freedom to express their own style through their clothing, they are going to go out with you looking a lot worse than ragamuffins!

 

---

 

And there is a difference between excusing yourself from the table and *asking* to be excused (being excused by someone else) -- if you have a family norm of that particular table manner, it's fine if you all say the same thing (ie 'excuse me') as you leave. If you want some people to ask permission ('may I be excused?') that's an unpleasant dynamic for teens of growing autonomy.

 

(I think the advice to focus on major issues and ignore minor things like wrinkles and child-specific table manners -- is right on the money, and well worth it.)

 

Well, you may see not having the kids look like ragamuffins as an act of micromanagement.  I disagree.  As far as style is concerned, my teen is allowed to "express his style".  His style is blue jeans and plain colored Tshirts, so I guess we're good on that score.

 

Children, including teens, ask to be excused because they are not the equals of the adults and the adults are the ones who decide when the activity, in  this case the meal, is over.  This used to be common.

 

People talk a lot about "hills to die on".  Personally, I don't buy that idea.  I think it's a rule to have or not at all.  Maybe this means the same, I'm not sure.  In my opinion teaching kids to be respectful and neat is worth fighting for.

[Katy]

I read a blog post a few months ago about erasing teenage entitlement...  It ought to fix your guilt. The blogger took everything away from her DD to stop the madness.

 

http://www.theshabbycreekcottage.com/how-we-erased-teenage-entitlement.html

[HomeAgain]

Don't ever feel guilty for helping your children into adulthood.  Feel guilty if you don't.

 

FWIW, the index card system works well here for regular chores.  Constantly sending them back with "it's not done yet!" gets the point home, allows you to move on instead of dwell, and simply reinforce standards.  They know, because it's written RIGHT THERE. They have no excuse, and I'm more than willing to be proven wrong if a child can go step by step through the card and show he did everything.

[lllll]

OK..previously, I took away the computers, completely, 100%. I let things sit. They knew why they were taken away. But, they took about ten days to ask me when they will get them back. I explained to them when. I said 1) when you finish your chores, not just once, but as a habit for a few days or even a week  2) when all of this past school years work is done 3) your attitudes change (and I explained the attitude issue). I also said when they do get them back, they will have less hours on them. Fine.

 

Today, I reminded them of what they need to do and I reminded them yesterday. I am feeling guilty it has been so long. But sheesh!

 

Here is an example, one of many...we ate in the backyard, we grilled. Great. Both boys got up and walked away the moment they were done eating (they are supposed to ask to be excused). I went to them and brought them back. I told the to carry the dishes and everything else in. They did, for the most part. I was in the kitchen doing dishes at the time, and I carried some things in too. I went back and checked their work and they had forgotten things. Realize, they are 12 and 14.5 yrs old. I said carry everything in, plus, some hot dog buns fell to the ground, so please throw those away. I went back inside. I ended up taking the baby upstairs and giving him a bath and breastfeeding and my attention also got turned to the small children. Today, I come out and realize they did not go back and do what I asked. The moment my back was turned, they ditched the job. And it rained last night so the buns are now wet and such and there is more work involved to clean them up. 

 

SO, right now, they are downstairs, supposed to pick up and they are discussing how unreasonable I am. I asked that 12 yr old get Legos back to his room and the books back on his shelf. I asked both kids to put away their own laundry. 12 yr old has not done his part and as far as the laundry goes, 14 yr old just stuffed them in various drawers, not even the correct drawers and nothing is folded or hung up. 

 

I am not their slave. Their chores are not unreasonable. I spend more time trying to get them to do their chores than they do actually doing the chores. Oh, this morning, while I was cleaning the kitchen, I asked 12 yr old to put the new TP under the sink in the bathroom. "I don't know how." Well, under the cupboard, in the bathroom, just make sure they are to the left." "I don't get it!" "umm, here, in the bathroom, the only cupboard, under here." "I just don't know what you mean." 

 

These are the games I deal with. I know, I need to lose the guilt and just stay strong on this. They can figure out elaborate things on the computers and spend hours on them, but cannot take 15 minutes to put away their own laundry or put away their own shoes. 

 

The improvement we have seen though, before we took away the computers, they would not even read a book. They sat around complaining they had nothing to do ever time their computers shut off (parental controls with time limits). Their computer time seemed holy to them. And in between, they would just sit there and whine or even go take a nap until their next computer time. Now, they have taken to reading books, riding bikes, and even swimming. So this is definitely an improvement. I am very happy with this improvement. 

 

When my kids (especially my boys) acted like the above, I took it as a clear indication that they had too much time on their hands and needed more work and responsibility - and that's exactly what I gave them - more challenging school, more adult-level chores, whatever I could find.  They could be mad all they wanted (which your ds's seem to be about losing their screens), but my solution was to work them so much that they didn't have the time or energy to nurse that anger ... and direct it at the rest of the family, aggressively OR passively.

 

Also, when I saw my kids (again, mostly my ds's) turning the whole chore thing into a 'game' in which the goal was to outsmart Mama, that was the point where I turned ALL the chores over to my kids.  I took myself out of the equation (except to train them and check their work), and they ran the house.  And my youngest was about 8-10yod when they got the 'gift' of running the house ;).  She did just as well as all her older brothers and sisters, too, if not better.  I've often thought that I could have given them many more chores, much sooner than I did, too. 

 

And congratulations on their doing so many more things like reading and getting outside to play!  I think that means you're on the right track.  It's SO wonderful when that happens, isn't it?  When you decide to make some changes that some (most?) of your family won't be pleased with, and that decision turns out to be such a good thing for your family.  Believe it or not, your kids will appreciate it one day.  They may even come back years later and thank you for it.  Mine did.  :)

 

   

Edited June 1, 2016 by _ ?^..

[TammyS]

I guess I think 13 yos have a right to look like ragamuffins in slightly wrinkly clothes if they feel like it. Because, not a hill to die on. Also, because I said so, terrible reason if you want to build a relationship with your kids.

 

Of course, if you don't want to build the relationship, you just want to force them to comply, that's another matter. Maybe some people can make that fly with their kids. But these kids, who are already resentful and angry... when an unstoppable force meets another unstoppable force, who yields? And if no one yields, what's the endgame? And wouldn't it be better just to reroute the whole thing so that you don't end up with kids who resent you for years over folded clothes?

 

I'm not sure I understand your first point.  If they "have a right" then it's not something that one SHOULD have a rule over.  But "not a hill to die on" sounds like it's just too much trouble for you, but that you don't actually think they have a right.

 

People talk a lot about this "resenting a parent for years over (fill in the blank non-abusive issue)".  Who are these people who are still resenting their parents because they were required to fold their clothes?  Seriously?  I think their problems run a heck of a lot deeper than the clothes.  Their problem is they didn't grow up so they want to blame their parents for their continued childishness.

[eternalsummer]

They brush their teeth because it prevents cavities; they bathe because it prevents infection (if you get a cut or scrape) and because there is, to some degree, a standard of social acceptability regarding odor; they brush their hair because eventually you end up with mats, which are painful to comb out.

 

For children these things have to be enforced because they don't (generally speaking) understand or care about cavities, offending others via smell, or brushing out mats.

 

For teenagers (even for my DD11), only teeth brushing is really worth the fight to me - the rest is a matter of what she wants in terms of her relationship to the world.  If she doesn't care whether people look at her tangly hair askance that is not my concern, really.  I will say that in my experience, most teenagers and preteens want to adhere to at least a minimum level of social acceptability re: dress and cleanliness.

 

Wrinkliness of clothing is not a matter of minimum social acceptability (or, I would argue, average social acceptability), esp. within the social groups of teenagers :)

 

 

Re: telling kids that they have to do what I say because I support them financially - that is a recipe for disaster imo.  will your daughters, if they are stay at home wives, have to do what their husbands say because they don't make money?

[Farrar]

Explaining things to kids who actually want to know is something I'm happy to do.  But they hardly ever want to know.  They want to argue, which I don't allow, therefore "because I said so".  Occasionally, if I'm unsure, I'll ask them if they really want to know why, but that they have to know I'm giving them an explanation, not opening an argument.  No, I do not defend myself to my children. 

 

Why can't they go out wearing wrinkled clothes?  Why do they brush their teeth, or comb their hair, or bathe?  I tell them that when they are paying their own way they can live as slovenly ask they like, until then they will be decent.  Given that my kids live their lives in PJs at home, and jeans and Tshirts out of the house, I don't think requiring them to put their clothes neatly into their dresser is burdensome.  And if I'm wrong, oh well.  They'll just have to bear the burden.

 

You don't see any difference between brushing your teeth and wearing wrinkled clothes? One is victimless assuming no one can die from being judged by strangers. The other could lead to pain, hefty dental bills, even death if it really went too far.

[eternalsummer]

 

 

Children, including teens, ask to be excused because they are not the equals of the adults and the adults are the ones who decide when the activity, in  this case the meal, is over.  This used to be common.

 

 

 

Here is the crux of the issue.  You and I assume the OP view children (teenagers) as not the equal of adults - so much so that they must ask to move, or leave a table.

 

This is fine.  This works okay, as long as the adults and children share the same understanding (that they are not equal).  Women used to understand that they were not equal to men, too, and a lot of things ran smoother then too, imo - everything has a trade-off.  Women got more freedom, but did not gain happiness (say the stats), and I don't know that society functions better on the whole.

 

For the OP, the trade off in giving her children a sense that they are not her equals, or anywhere close to it, is that the children feel separate from her and "plot against her."  They plot against her because she has dictated a dynamic in which she and the children are fundamentally separate, but she can't maintain the control, so they rebel against her authority.

 

She can prove to them that her authority is valid (if she can) and rule them absolutely - they will rebel, but there are ways to successfully put down the rebellion, though not without a sense of separation, of course - or she can change the dynamic to one closer to partnership and guidance as the children get older.

 

She cannot have both.  You can't have your cake and eat it too :)

[Guest]

Standards and social acceptability are important. Everyone's are different. My boys had to be neat and tidy at all times. No holes, no long hair, etc. we talked a lot as they became/are becoming teens about how you need to care how others see you because they will judge you and your family by that. That held true wether we were at home or going out. The other half to that was manners. Manners and the way they treat me because girls care about those things.

 

Idea: years ago we regulated shirts and jeans to hangers because it was easier to put away. Might that be an option?

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited June 1, 2016 by Paradox5

[mamiof5]

I'd nip it in the bud. At those ages that's just ridiculous. "I don't get how to put tp under the sink" really?? I'd talk to them right away-no emotion, but setting firm expectations. When asked to put something away (Legos, food, whatever) means NOW, not whenever they feel like it. Soggy bread and more clean up for not listening the first time? 15 mins of extra chores...clean baseboards or something. A simple chore that a 6 yr old can do (like tp under sink), but they don't know how to? Figure it out and write the instructions down for me, so next time I make sure you know how to do it. I'd have no tolerance for behavior/attitude like that.

[eternalsummer]

And if we are arguing tradition, which I am happy to do (I believe in the value of traditional practices, largely speaking) - young men at this age do not, in most tribal societies (what we were for presumably millennia, vs the last few hundred years) come under the authority of their mothers anymore.  It is precisely the age for men to rebel against female authority because it is the age at which they come under male authority, and take on male responsibilities.

 

If you want to promote a traditional arrangement, the DH will have to start instructing the boys on what to do, and it will not be housework :)  The OP must do all of that for her young men, while they learn to hunt and protect the family and provide and etc.

[hornblower]

 

 

If you want to promote a traditional arrangement, the DH will have to start instructing the boys on what to do, and it will not be housework :)  

 

see, I disagree about the last part - there's no reason why it can't be housework.

 

but it's why I asked whether these were male children and if there was another adult male living who does chores. My dh cooks, cleans, irons, does laundry, vacuums, cleans bathrooms etc.  But I do think that if there's a not so subtle signalling that adult males don't do these things - because the adult male doesn't model doing them - then I think it sets up this dynamic of tween and teen boys not wanting to do them. 

[amsunshine]

I do think the chores OP has outlined for her boys are quite reasonable for their ages.  They may need more things such as mowing the lawn, taking out the trash, etc.  These are things one would hope they would continue to do into adulthood, and as husbands.  Not sure about the asking to be excused from the table part, but assuming they are just leaving without a word to anyone, and without clearing their dishes, that's just rude.  If an adult did that, it would be perceived as rude and they need to know that.

 

That said, I do think your family needs to regroup and rethink how you interact.  How does your husband stand on these issues?

[gypsymama]

Too many posts to quote but I agree with so much of the above! I don't do "because I said so." Things either have a reason or they don't. I do view the children as humans with their own rights though so I approach them as such. We have rules and expectations but they are house rules and family expectations that we all (including dh and myself) abide by. Some rules are age specific but not many. 

 

The clothes... I already said above I don't require folding. I *do* require the dress clothes to be hung because we want them to be nice but that's it. The others are up to the kid. I'm not big on appearances to make other people feel good though. This is any age kid though.... I mean I'm that mom that will let the 4 yr old go to the grocery store in her ladybug costume because she loves it and wanted to. Didn't hurt anyone by her doing it and it made her deliriously happy so...  :confused1:

 

 

 

[Bambam]

I'm pretty tough on my girls.

 

At those ages, (12 and 14.5) they were responsible for their own laundry. Rules - 1. Don't wear smelly clothes. 2. Don't put your laundry in the washer or dryer and forget it. Start it and get it done. 3. Don't leave your laundry (dirty or clean) in the way. 

 

I think the reason there are doors on room is so they can be closed and we don't have to look inside. I don't really care what your room looks like. I do care if it smells and I notice that when I walk by (not acceptable). 

 

You will have to wear nice clothes to church so you better be prepared. And no super wrinkly stuff either or you will use the iron. 

 

Training kids to work and finish up chores is hard. I think it is harder when there is more than one because they can distract each other. I'm not sure why some kids pick up things easily while others don't. Two girls in this house. One always takes her dishes into the kitchen after eating - the other - I always have to call her back and remind her (Oh, I'm sorry, Mama, I guess I just forgot). 15 years I've been doing this. But I do stay to make sure she "remembers" and does it. If I don't, good chance she will forget again.

 

 

[eternalsummer]

Lest anyone think I'm opposed to chores for kids, my DD11 does all of the kitchen cleaning (dishes, mopping, sweeping, counters, etc.) and 75% of the laundry.  DS8 does the vacuuming (and we have a ridiculous amount of carpet), picking up before vacuuming, and taking trash from kitchen to garage.  Both also help with the littles periodically throughout the day.  DD4 picks up before DS vacuums sometimes and also does basic bathroom cleaning (she takes dirty clothes to the hamper, hangs up towels, and sops up spilled bath water).  

 

Occasionally (once every other week?) I look in their rooms and make exclamations about how much of a disaster they are, and then we all clean our rooms (I clean ours, generally).

 

As DS gets older he'll start doing some of the things his father does (mowing, firewood procurement and moving around, fixing things, house projects, car things).  He is capable of cleaning the kitchen and doing the dishes and etc., and DD can vacuum and take out the trash, but mostly they have their own spheres of influence.

 

When we take a break from electronics (which we do fairly regularly as we're all addictive personalities), we all take a break, except for our online business.  usually a break just means we use way less of them for a week or two.

[fairfarmhand]

"Not a hill to die on." to me means "not worth the emotional energy expended."

 

Also, the small things...wrinkled clothing, and the like can become a big issue because it becomes an ongoing source of tension, one that teens often begin to tune out.

 

The problem with this is that "mom's always carping about something" means that big things get shoved into the same box as the little things.

 

I don't want my kid putting mom's carping about wrinkled clothes in the same box as mom lecturing about drinking or sex outside of marriage. And yes they do that because I did it.

 

There was no pleasing my dad because little things were elevated to the same status as big things so I tuned him out.

 

It wasn't till I got blessed with a hardheaded, strongwilled intense kid that I learned to save the emotional energy for stuff that really matters.

 

Not that I gave up on the small things entirely, but that I tried to keep them on the level of "Hey, your rooms gotten really bad. In the next week, I need you to move that to the top of the priority list." And my dd, because she knows I give her a LOT of latitude in how she keeps her room, manages to find the time to tackle it. Not always because she wants to but because she knows that  I'm getting to the end of my patience and she loves me.

 

BTW, perhaps your kids need fewer clothes, need to hang their things, or need a  Kondo folding workshop. My dd wadded her clothes up until I demonstrated how things fit better Kondo style and she could see what she had. That's when she started folding her stuff.

[lmrich]

Nothing more than to echo what was said above... my kids could not fold clothes and put them in their drawers so everything got hung up except underwear, socks, pjs, and leotards, etc... Worked like a charm. 

 

I would make the kids ask to be excused. That is just polite.

[Spryte]

Having come through the teen years, and landed - finally - in the mid-twenties, with a kiddo - I have a different perspective for our now-12 yr old. There are many battles I fought and hills I died on, with the 24 yr old, that simply were not that important. They sure seemed important at the time, though. Sometimes we can lose a battle, but win the war. And the win, for me, is a great relationship with my now-adult child. Some battles we can win, as parents, but at the expense of something fragile and important inside our child.

 

I agree with so very much that's already been written, but I did have one thought (might have missed it, if it was suggested). If earning back their screens is an issue, can you write down the attainable goals to earning screen time? Spell it out for them. Better yet, brainstorm it together so they have done autonomy, and have them write it down. Then post it somewhere.

 

FWIW, I'd probably let go of, "May I be excused?" for 12 and up. Our littles say that, but not the older kids. I certainly don't ask permission of DH, and I want our tweens transitioning to adulthood. Our kids have good table manners, they always say thanks, and they aren't just going to jump up mid-conversation and leave rudely. I bet OP's wouldn't either. And if they do jump up and leave rudely, that can be addressed each time.

 

Laundry. Drawers. Ugh. That is a hill I wish I had not died on. I hate that I was a dictator about folding clothes and drawers. Keep a few sets of clothes squirreled away in case there's a wrinkle free emergency, and let them learn. These aren't little kids. If you need to do a run-through in how to fold, keep things nice in drawers, do it, and then release it. Or ignore anything I've said here. :) Hopefully you won't look back at all the creative ideas you tried and the cards and the charts and whatever and feel regrets.

[Tsuga]

I'm not sure I understand your first point. If they "have a right" then it's not something that one SHOULD have a rule over. But "not a hill to die on" sounds like it's just too much trouble for you, but that you don't actually think they have a right.

 

People talk a lot about this "resenting a parent for years over (fill in the blank non-abusive issue)". Who are these people who are still resenting their parents because they were required to fold their clothes? Seriously? I think their problems run a heck of a lot deeper than the clothes. Their problem is they didn't grow up so they want to blame their parents for their continued childishness.

I agree with the last paragraph. Re: "Not a hill to die on", I think that means, "I believe this is an important part of growing up but I realize you have rights so I will let it go."